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Old February 5th, 2010, 10:37 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Official 4G/WiMax: what is it, why do we want it

I couldn't help but wonder what WiMAX 4G was and why I should be interested in it. To understand its significance, I decided to do some Internet searches. What I learned is, WiMAX speeds are generally considered to be 4 to 5 times faster than 3G, but on Sprint’s official site, they indicate WiMAX speeds are up to 10 times faster than 3G.

Ultimately, WiMAX speeds will rival DSL and cable broadband on your desktop computer. Just think of what that could do for streaming video, live TV and video conferencing on your phone.

4G Systems

Within the United States, there are two major systems using 4G mobile technology. One is known as WiMAX and is backed by Clearwire, a firm whose majority owner is Sprint Nextel. They began testing services in Baltimore in 2008 and then expanded into new major markets in 2009. Sprint intends to have 80 cities covered by the end of 2010. The rival system, Long Term Evolution or LTE, is backed mainly by Verizon. They are expected to begin testing LTE this year, but it will not be available for widespread use on Verizon until 2012.

Standards

The term 4G is a broad term which does not meet any standards, but that will change.

Wikipedia 4G Article. A 4G cellular system must have target peak data rates of up to approximately 100 Mbit/s for high mobility such as mobile access and up to approximately 1 Gbit/s for low mobility such as nomadic/local wireless access, according to the ITU requirements.

The world's first publicly available LTE service was opened in the two Scandinavian capitals - Stockholm and Oslo a couple of months ago on the December 14, 2009, and was branded 4G. The Mobile WiMAX (IEEE 802.16e-2005) mobile wireless broadband access (MWBA) standard is sometimes branded 4G. It offers peak data rates of 128 Mbit/s downlink and 56 Mbit/s uplink over 20 MHz wide channels.

The IEEE 802.16m evolution of 802.16e is under development, with the objective to fulfill the IMT-Advanced criteria of 1000 Mbit/s for stationary reception and 100 Mbit/s for mobile reception.

4-12-2010 - Update: Intel, Motorola, Samsung and more join forces to support WiMAX 2
IEEE pushing 802.16m WiMAX to 1Gbps, hopes to converge with 4G

Goal


The goal of 4G will be to replace the entire core of cellular networks with a cellular network based on the IP (Internet Protocol) for video, packet data utilizing Voice over IP (VoIP) and multimedia services.

History

Below are a few news articles that go back almost 5 years about Sprint and WiMAX. I only mention these, because some people think Sprint just started working on WiMAX.

6-30-2005 - WiMAX begins to gel at Sprint. Cell phone operator Sprint plans to begin testing next-generation WiMAX handsets and other WiMAX equipment from Motorola, a sign that Sprint's future network plans are falling into place.

12-8-2005 - Mobile WiMAX gets green light. An industry standards group has approved a new specification for WiMAX that includes mobility support, thus paving the way for chipmakers and device manufacturers to start working on new products. The standard, called 802.16e was finalized two months ago, but it was formally ratified on Wednesday by the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers. WiMAX is considered a promising next-generation wireless technology because it supports high data rates and has a long transmission reach.

8-8-2006 - Sprint to use WiMAX for 4G wireless network. Sprint executives said during a press briefing here that the company plans to spend about $1 billion on the network in 2007. It will spend another $1.5 billion to $2 billion in 2008. The new fourth-generation, or 4G, network is expected to go live in the fourth quarter of 2007. About 100 million people will have access to the network by the end of 2008, the company said.

5-7-2008 - Sprint Nextel and Clearwire detail 4G plans. Sprint Nextel and Clearwire are combining network assets to build a new nationwide 4G wireless network that the companies say has huge benefits for each of them. Until now, Sprint and Clearwire have been on separate paths to build nationwide broadband wireless networks using WiMAX, an IP technology that can blanket entire cities and provides more than five times the speed of 3G wireless networks. Now they are joining forces and creating a new company that will have access to more wireless spectrum than any other company in the entire country.

Quote:
Cable operators Comcast, Time Warner Cable, and Bright House Networks, as well as tech giants Intel and Google have invested a combined $3.2 billion in the new company, which is valued at $14.5 billion.
12-1-2008 - Clearwire-Sprint Nextel unveils new brand. Clearwire and Sprint-Nextel announced Monday they have completed their joint-venture transaction and will offer mobile WiMAX service under the "Clear" brand.

Comparison Chart

Comparison Chart of Wireless standards.

How WiMAX works

Video demonstration of WiMAX by Intel.

Building WiMAX Networks

Sprint is the only national wireless network to offer 4G. It is available now in 33 cities and that is expected to more than double this year, to over 80 cities. WiMAX networks are fairly inexpensive and easy to set up, and that’s because the base stations can be installed on current cellular towers and on towers at the top of buildings.

1-12-2010 - A rumor that Wal-Mart and Sprint plan to work together in an effort to grow the nationwide WiMAX network. This includes placing WiMAX towers on the top of all Wal-Mart locations. Many stores overlap each other in a 30-50 mile radius. Essentially, this would be enough to cover a good chunk of the United States. Plus, this would not cost nearly as much as erecting towers and dealing with hassles like zoning permissions.

This is nothing new as I found articles going back to 2004 stating that Wal-Mart wanted to install base stations attached to all of its stores "to bestow broadband Internet access upon a good portion of the US".

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Old February 5th, 2010, 01:05 PM   #2 (permalink)
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so i have a "crazy question" please don't laugh for my ignorance! lol

but with 4G, will there be voice and data simultaneously like on AT&T? or is that still limited to GSM?
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Old February 5th, 2010, 02:12 PM   #3 (permalink)
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No Roddy, it's not a crazy question at all, but I'm not able to prove it one way or the other right now. Guess we'll have to wait until the phone is released to find out. Perhaps someone with WiMAX/VoIP/mobile experience will be able to answer.

My reason for posting this thread is because I'm excited about the HTC Supersonic. I wrote quite a bit tying to stir interest and was hoping people would be able to comment and expound more on the subject.

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Old February 6th, 2010, 08:49 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Covert,

I read that the Supersonic works on EVDO/EVDO Rev A, so my guess is, wherever your Instinct works, the Supersonic should also work. I'd say you would have the best of both worlds. When in Dallas, you'd would have 4G broadband type speed like you get on your desktop.

It would be great if the rumor about Wal-Mart putting WiMAX on all their buildings comes true. The following map shows where all their stores are located.



It looks like this would give you coverage at the university as well.
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Old February 7th, 2010, 06:30 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Ok as for voice/data at the same time, I would say yes, if your in 4g coverage. 4g woul be a different radio, and you can use wifi while on a call, so its definately possible. Edge- no. Supersonic is cdma. Edge is gsm.

Wimax to lte via software? Definately possible. Wimax and lte are very very similiar, so I don't see why this would be a problem.
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Old February 10th, 2010, 02:15 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Where WiMAX 4G Coverage is Available Now

I've been trying to nail down where WiMAX 4G is available and where it should be coming soon. Clear/Sprint isn't making it easy to figure out where they're going to deploy next, so this may not be accurate on the "Coming Soon" locations.

Available Now

Georgia: Atlanta, Milledgeville.
Hawaii: Honolulu, Maui.
Idaho: Boise
Illinois: Chicago.
Maryland: Baltimore
Nevada: Las Vegas
North Carolina: Charlotte, Greensboro, Raleigh.
Oregon: Portland, Roseburg, Salem,
Pennsylvania: Philadelphia.
Texas: Abilene, Amarillo, Austin, Corpus Christi, Dallas/Fort Worth, Killeen, Lubbock, Midland/Odessa, San Antonio, Temple, Waco, Wichita Falls.
Washington: Bellingham, Everett, Kitsap, Seattle, Tacoma

Coming Soon

California: Chico, Merced, Modesto, Redding, Stockton, Visalia
Ohio: Dayton
Florida: Daytona, Jacksonville, St. Augustine
Minnesota: Duluth, St. Cloud
New York: Rochester, Syracuse
Oregon: Bend, Eugene,
Tennessee: Nashville
Texas: Longview
Virginia: Richmond
Washington: Aberdeen, Grants Pass, Klamath Falls, Medford, Snohomish, Tri-Cities, Wenatchee, Yakima.
Washington DC
Wisconsin: Eau Claire

Texas seems to be the clear (no pun intended) winner so far where 4G is already operational. As I mentioned above, the cities where the roll-out is underway seems to be somewhat of a secret. I would appreciate any input.
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Old March 21st, 2010, 03:22 AM   #7 (permalink)
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You are missing these cities that will be launched in 2010...
Boston, Houston, New York City, San Francisco, Denver, Kansas City, Minneapolis
Source:
Sprint Press release Aug 11, 2009
Sprint 4G Press Kit

TS out
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Old March 21st, 2010, 12:11 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caloy View Post
Yeah, but I don't see Houston in there. And in terms of population, Houston is the 4th Largest city in the US.
Calroy, if you look at this thread, you will see Houston listed as an upcoming city. With all the coverage Texas has, I'm surprised Houston isn't one of them already.
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 10:52 AM   #9 (permalink)
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I found this article on 4G very informative and interesting.
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 12:26 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Not sure if some of you are on twitter or are fans of twitter, but the person who has given me a TON of insight on anything Sprint 4g is @svinge if you want to follow her. She is a really friendly PR for Sprint on 4G and responds fairly quickly with answers. Here's her page:

svinge (svinge) on Twitter
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 12:46 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Thanks, Cary. I check her out.
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 02:29 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Default All the WiMAX news that's fit to show online...

I came across a good site showing off multiple news about WiMAX.
WiMax.com
In it are some very good reads about...

Wimax more spectrally efficent than HSPA & LTE by Intel

WiMAX 2 Networks ready in 2012 by Intel

Why the WimAX vs LTE Battle isn't a Battle

and the three part series of WiMax, LTE and WiMAX vs LTE (long but good info, especially part 2 and 3)
WiMax Part 1
WiMax Part 2
WiMax Part 3

TS out
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Old March 25th, 2010, 08:54 AM   #13 (permalink)
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I remember reading, not exactly sure where, another forum probably....that EVDO/EVDO Rev A itself IS capable of Voice and Data at the sametime, but it was not stable. Therefore Sprint never turned it on, I believe that only one area actually had it running.

But WiMax should do Voice and Data at the sametime.....considering if your Data is running of the 4G "Wifi" network, it should not interfere with the basic Voice radio signal at all....unless Sprint is incorporating a VOIP type network thru 4G?

I work for a Telecom company(You could say somewhat Major in the US) that only thru company rumors was trying to set up a deal to help Sprint with a VOIP network. Only problem being is that we are a huge Verizon reseller....so I dont think conversations got too far.
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Old March 25th, 2010, 10:05 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evotitans View Post
I remember reading, not exactly sure where, another forum probably....that EVDO/EVDO Rev A itself IS capable of Voice and Data at the sametime, but it was not stable. Therefore Sprint never turned it on, I believe that only one area actually had it running.

But WiMax should do Voice and Data at the sametime.....considering if your Data is running of the 4G "Wifi" network, it should not interfere with the basic Voice radio signal at all....unless Sprint is incorporating a VOIP type network thru 4G?

I work for a Telecom company(You could say somewhat Major in the US) that only thru company rumors was trying to set up a deal to help Sprint with a VOIP network. Only problem being is that we are a huge Verizon reseller....so I dont think conversations got too far.
It's too bad for the sake of the industry and for the sake of 4G that they don't get together. It would be best for everyone worldwide if the did.

I was reading about the " EVDO/EVDO Rev A itself IS capable of Voice and Data" thing also (somewhere), but that's based on 3G and it stresses the network too much. Things will be a lot better with 4G. If the telecoms would get together instead fighting each other, it would make the whole 4G thing come together a lot faster.
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Old March 25th, 2010, 12:28 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billsmed View Post

I was reading about the " EVDO/EVDO Rev A itself IS capable of Voice and Data" thing also (somewhere), but that's based on 3G and it stresses the network too much. Things will be a lot better with 4G.

I think thats why Sprint never implemented sametime Voice + Date with EVDO/Rev A...it would stress the network too much. And I remember when Rev A was rolled out, Sprint was already in the process of working on 4G. Probably didnt seem feasable to them to activate it on Rev A, and for it to go faulty and lose more customers than they already were.

But I will say, I fully expect 4G to do this....Sprint has had to have this in mind for awhile now. Do you know how much a selling/marketing point it would be that on this brand new 4G network you can surf and talk at the same time??? Add in the cheapest plans(No extra charge for 4G), free mobile minutes and the EVO a phone that spec wise is unmatched right now and I could see Sprint racing towards being atleast the #2 Carrier for some time.
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Old March 25th, 2010, 04:17 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evotitans View Post
But I will say, I fully expect 4G to do this....Sprint has had to have this in mind for awhile now. Do you know how much a selling/marketing point it would be that on this brand new 4G network you can surf and talk at the same time??? Add in the cheapest plans(No extra charge for 4G), free mobile minutes and the EVO a phone that spec wise is unmatched right now and I could see Sprint racing towards being atleast the #2 Carrier for some time.
COMPLETELY agree %100!!!!!!!
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Old March 25th, 2010, 06:48 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Even though my contract isn't gonna be out wen the EVO comes out I'm droppin my hero and gettin it
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Old March 26th, 2010, 11:30 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evotitans View Post
I think thats why Sprint never implemented sametime Voice + Date with EVDO/Rev A...it would stress the network too much. And I remember when Rev A was rolled out, Sprint was already in the process of working on 4G. Probably didnt seem feasable to them to activate it on Rev A, and for it to go faulty and lose more customers than they already were.

But I will say, I fully expect 4G to do this....Sprint has had to have this in mind for awhile now. Do you know how much a selling/marketing point it would be that on this brand new 4G network you can surf and talk at the same time??? Add in the cheapest plans(No extra charge for 4G), free mobile minutes and the EVO a phone that spec wise is unmatched right now and I could see Sprint racing towards being atleast the #2 Carrier for some time.
I have not read all the article links posted in this thread yet, but I remember reading up on WiMax years ago, when it was being created. The idea was that with it being cheaper to put up the transcievers that cell and such incredible bandwidth, it would ultimately replace the cell networks completely and free up that whole chunk of frequency for other uses.

Yes, with the speeds of WiMax, EXPECT Voip to be the dominant form of voice communication. Also expect video calls to be the standard by 2015. the only time a phone will need to be dual band, would be for international use, or a universal unlocked phone, that would jump from Wimax to LTE.

They could easily do Voip on the current 3G networks today, but like a few others have stated, the issue is stress of network bandwidth. There are fcc regulations that require a certain quality of service for voice communication and to insure that, when sharing the same network as your data, you have to throttle the data, to make sure you never choke the voice traffic. That means you potentially lose a good portion of your data speed. That would really suck.

4G solves that issue nicely, because that chunk of bandwidth needed for voice is now a much smaller percentage of the total pipe, so easier to handle.

My coisin helped develope the technology for WiMax, to allow you to smoothly travel from zone to zone. It was pretty exciting stuff back in the day and I am so pleased it is finally here for us to use.

nice to meet you all.
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Old March 28th, 2010, 11:10 PM   #19 (permalink)
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So has anyone seen any actual evidence in print (article, press release - anything) confirming or denying that the WiMax technology EVO 4G is going to use will support simultaneous data and voice or not?
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Old March 29th, 2010, 04:20 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Check out this post.
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Old March 29th, 2010, 05:59 PM   #21 (permalink)
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So is anyone on here in an area that will most definitely NOT be getting 4G this year, if ever?
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Old April 1st, 2010, 07:51 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I personally don't think I'll be getting it. I live in Tallahassee, Florida. You'd think the capital of Florida would be first to get it before Jacksonville, Daytona, or St. Augustine right? But I guess not.....

I used to live in Jax for over 6 years too, so it stings a little, lol.
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Old April 1st, 2010, 10:26 PM   #23 (permalink)
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tampa is rumored. guess ill have to wait and see. but honestly, the 3g signal here is amazing.
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Old April 2nd, 2010, 08:26 AM   #24 (permalink)
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T-mobile has a program where if you own your own property they *may* install a tower on it with your permission. Does anyone know if sprint has a similar program?
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Old April 2nd, 2010, 08:39 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twospirits View Post
I came across a good site showing off multiple news about WiMAX.
WiMax.com
In it are some very good reads about...

Wimax more spectrally efficent than HSPA & LTE by Intel

WiMAX 2 Networks ready in 2012 by Intel

Why the WimAX vs LTE Battle isn't a Battle

and the three part series of WiMax, LTE and WiMAX vs LTE (long but good info, especially part 2 and 3)
WiMax Part 1
WiMax Part 2
WiMax Part 3

TS out
I thought the "Why the WiMax vs LTE Battle isn't a Battle" link was awesome! It pretty much vindicates my current leanings. I was planning on switching from Sprint to Verizon for the Incredible....but live in Austin, TX. So...I'm in a prime location to enjoy WiMax. Then in the future, if LTE is deployed here...I will have a choice. Very simple...just as i have a choice now. And if the Sprint plans stay the same I will be on the Shared Every Mobile plan (not exact title)....and have a lower cost than if I switched. And since my reason for switching was that most of my family migrated to Verizon...I can rest easy knowing that every mobile is shared! That combined with the 30 day no hassle trial for new subscribers should propel Sprint back into a competitive territory. This WiMax sounds like it's going to be awesome!
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Old April 2nd, 2010, 01:33 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I was just thinking about video chat and stuff like that and my first thought was how it will be kind of lame not being able to video call anyone since a lot of people won't have Evos. Then I started thinking about how Google ought to include APIs for Google Chat that allow video in chat sessions. Right now I use the Gmail integrated chat all the time and sometimes I fire up the webcam and video call my friends for a laugh. It would really expand the reach of any video calling if they let you do this. For as long as people have been clamoring for video iChat on the iPhone, it would be great to see that on the Evo.
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Old April 2nd, 2010, 10:47 PM   #27 (permalink)
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I was just thinking about video chat and stuff like that and my first thought was how it will be kind of lame not being able to video call anyone since a lot of people won't have Evos. Then I started thinking about how Google ought to include APIs for Google Chat that allow video in chat sessions. Right now I use the Gmail integrated chat all the time and sometimes I fire up the webcam and video call my friends for a laugh. It would really expand the reach of any video calling if they let you do this. For as long as people have been clamoring for video iChat on the iPhone, it would be great to see that on the Evo.

You know...you're right...but on the bright side (selfishly for me! ) it will be nice that I could potentially try video chat with my wife....because we will both get the same new phone....very likely this one! So yes...it will be limited...but what if you use Skype or some other way of calling that enables video chat on a computer? Perhaps a loved one could talk to you on their computer....and see you there....and vice versa? Or maybe it will just be a one way street in that case? And will the front facing cam work for things like MSN Messenger? That would be an interesting thought....yes? Not sure I understand all the features yet as I spent most of my time lurking in the Incredible forum. Some of the possibilities sound very interesting!
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Old April 2nd, 2010, 10:57 PM   #28 (permalink)
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One of the things we talked about before was hooking the EVO 4G up to an HDTV via the HDMI cable. It certainly seems feasible and that way the whole family could easily be involved in a Skype call. More than likely, when the phone is released there will be some kind of built in video conferencing program. We'll have to wait and see, but it seems like the possibilities are endless.
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Old April 2nd, 2010, 11:07 PM   #29 (permalink)
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You know that Google API for video chat idea might just come out sooner than you think. At the rate that Google is acquiring companies for its purposes, I wouldn't doubt that it will incorporate the APIs into gmail, Gchat and YouTube. Infact today i read that Google acquired online video hosting platform Episodic.

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Old April 4th, 2010, 06:15 PM   #30 (permalink)
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You know that Google API for video chat idea might just come out sooner than you think. At the rate that Google is acquiring companies for its purposes, I wouldn't doubt that it will incorporate the APIs into gmail, Gchat and YouTube. Infact today i read that Google acquired online video hosting platform Episodic.

TS
They already have video chat in Gmail Chat so it would just be a matter of porting that infrastructure into the Android Google chat. Right now it just requires a browser plugin so it would be great to see the framework added to Android.
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Old April 4th, 2010, 09:24 PM   #31 (permalink)
 
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it has nothing to do with the SD! That is the built in ROM memory- completely independant of the SD!

Ha believe me i don't lie to you guys i tell you the truth like it is

WiMax vs. LTE: Part 3

^ this is a great site explainging why WiMAX is more valuable that LTE, it explains, in short, that WiMAX is easier for the consumer to use somehow. It is hard to explain because no LTE device exists but he says that using a wimax device is very much like a computer and that an LTE device will not be this way. Verrrryyy Interesting

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Old April 4th, 2010, 11:46 PM   #32 (permalink)
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WiMax vs. LTE: Part 3

^ this is a great site explainging why WiMAX is more valuable that LTE, it explains, in short, that WiMAX is easier for the consumer to use somehow. It is hard to explain because no LTE device exists but he says that using a wimax device is very much like a computer and that an LTE device will not be this way. Verrrryyy Interesting
I read this article and well maybe I missed something but I found it said nothing. Basically all he talked about is how the name sounds like WiFi, Intel backs it and young people are familiar with WiFi before they are with phones so people will like WiMax. It really didn't seem to talk about any sort of actual technological merits of either technology just how people perceive them.
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Old April 5th, 2010, 06:44 AM   #33 (permalink)
 
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Really Not Nick, if you continue reading, around the last paragraph or so it says that and LTE device will function differently than a WiMAX one. It will not be so second nature to use. We do not knw what this means because none exist.... GO WiMAX!!!!

Spaceshuttle? now thats chill
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Old April 5th, 2010, 11:41 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Really Not Nick, if you continue reading, around the last paragraph or so it says that and LTE device will function differently than a WiMAX one. It will not be so second nature to use. We do not knw what this means because none exist.... GO WiMAX!!!!
All I get from the last paragraph is that besides his theory that people like the name WiMax more "positive preconception", he says that the computer industry are stronger fighters than the handset manufacturers.

The paragraph above the last one just says the name WiMax sounds more like a portable computer that fits in your pocket than LTE which sounds like a phone that is connected to the internet. Not that the technology acts differently, just that it gives an impression that it does.

The whole article seems to have no real information, it's just his opinion on how the name sounds to consumers and how strong each industry of backers are. I'm amazed he didn't talk about the font and color of the logos.
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Old April 5th, 2010, 01:52 PM   #35 (permalink)
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I read this article and well maybe I missed something but I found it said nothing. Basically all he talked about is how the name sounds like WiFi, Intel backs it and young people are familiar with WiFi before they are with phones so people will like WiMax. It really didn't seem to talk about any sort of actual technological merits of either technology just how people perceive them.
reallynotnick, I have read what you and Jackson have said about the WiMax vs. LTE: Part 3 article. What I got from it is that WiMAX and LTE are opposing technologies (which we already knew) and the author, Russell Hitchcock also said that both technologies are converging. We have talked about that already in this thread and Dan Hesse talked about it in his keynote a couple of weeks ago. His message was that they could easily adapt WiMAX to LTE, if they need to, but he also said that it should be done for the good of the industry and for the good of consumers worldwide.

Hitchcock went on to say even though both technologies have a lot of support, such as Intel backing WiMAX and different handset makers like Ericsson backing LTE, he thought WiMAX would come out on top.

Verizon is the biggest backer of LTE in this country and they're trying to say LTE is superior, but it really isn't. That part is just propaganda as far as I'm concerned.

Right now, Sprint has the ONLY 4G network which they are expanding rapidly. LTE is in the beginning test stage here and I don't see it being deployed for at least a year or two. After that, it will take years to build it out. Rumors are that it will be deployed this year, but I think that's just propaganda as well. Think about it; Sprint started testing WiMAX 5 years ago and their first deployment was in Baltimore in 2008. Since WiMAX and LTE are similar, I find it hard to believe that since it has taken Sprint this long that Verizon will magically have a LTE network anytime soon.

I believe WiMAX will have a huge head start that will be difficult for Verizon to overcome. Hitchcock went on to say ""this whole competition (barring a massive mistake, or genius maneuvering) comes down to who has the favourable first impression".

Since Sprint has such a big lead in the 4G market and they will soon have the best and only 4G phone to run on it, I think WiMAX will succeed in a big way.
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Old April 5th, 2010, 02:22 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Since Sprint has such a big lead in the 4G market and they will soon have the best and only 4G phone to run on it, I think WiMAX will succeed in a big way.
Betamax format came first, and was arguably technically superior to VHS format. And yet today the very phrase "betamax" is used derisively to refer to failed or outdated technology. Sony's purported mishandling of betamax is one of the best-known "cautionary tales" in the tech industry.

In a standards war, its not always enough to be first or even best.
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Old April 5th, 2010, 02:48 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Betamax format came first, and was arguably technically superior to VHS format. And yet today the very phrase "betamax" is used derisively to refer to failed or outdated technology. Sony's purported mishandling of betamax is one of the best-known "cautionary tales" in the tech industry.

In a standards war, its not always enough to be first or even best.
Thanks, Berner. I appreciate your input as differences of opinion are healthy, but I don't think you can justify LTE over WiMAX based on the old Betamax argument from years ago. That's just my opinion of course. Someone else here might agree with your stand.

My argument is that LTE doesn't even exist yet and it probably won't for a long time, so there's no fight. Sprint has also said they could easily adopt to LTE, if they need to. I also like their attitude that the two technologies should converge for the good of the industry and for the good of the consumer. A lot of people would love to see the EVO become a world phone.

Earlier in this thread, I made the statement that people in the LTE camp are going to be coming after WiMAX saying it's inferior, but I want people coming into this forum to know that WiMAX is good and it's probably better than LTE.

If you've been following this thread you know that I have tried hard to make this an educational and informative thread. I want people that come here to enjoy it and not be turned off because of fighting and bickering. Although I'm not an admin or a moderator, I do feel the responsibility to stay on-topic as much as possible. There's been too many other threads closed because of fighting and because the thread wandered too much. I don't want to see that same fate happen to this thread.

Don't get me wrong. I want you to feel welcome too, Berner and I don't want you to think your comments aren't important. Just the opposite. I would like to take this opportunity to thank you and everyone else that has contributed here.

Bill
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Old April 5th, 2010, 03:19 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Thanks, Berner. I appreciate your input as differences of opinion are healthy, but I don't think you can justify LTE over WiMAX based on the old Betamax argument from years ago. That's just my opinion of course. Someone else here might agree with your stand.
What opinion? What stand? I just made an observation about standards wars, and not a very original one at that. The reality is that first or best doesn't always win out, so anyone who thinks that Wimax is going to prevail because its first or best could be standing on shaky ground. Personally, I don't yet have an opinion on the long-term viability of LTE vs. Wimax.

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If you've been following this thread you know that I have tried hard to make this an educational and informative thread. I want people that come here to enjoy it and not be turned off because of fighting and bickering. Although I'm not an admin or a moderator, I do feel the responsibility to stay on-topic as much as possible. There's been too many other threads closed because of fighting and because the thread wandered too much. I don't want to see that same fate happen to this thread.

Don't get me wrong. I want you to feel welcome too, Berner and I don't want you to think your comments aren't important. Just the opposite. I would like to take this opportunity to thank you and everyone else that has contributed here.
I have been following this thread, and I feel you do an excellent job as the non-official non-moderator of this thread. But if you are open to advice, I'd ask you to re-read the two paragraphs above, because to me, they sound inappropriately patronizing. Suggesting that my reply may be off-topic -- when I was simply responding to your own post -- comes across as passive-aggressive bullying. I'm sure that was not your intent, and I don't take offense easily, so its not a bother to me. However, if you'd like to address this with me further, I suggest that we both use the PM feature.
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Old April 5th, 2010, 03:33 PM   #39 (permalink)
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What opinion? What stand? I just made an observation about standards wars, and not a very original one at that. The reality is that first or best doesn't always win out, so anyone who thinks that Wimax is going to prevail because its first or best could be standing on shaky ground. Personally, I don't yet have an opinion on the long-term viability of LTE vs. Wimax.



I have been following this thread, and I feel you do an excellent job as the non-official non-moderator of this thread. But if you are open to advice, I'd ask you to re-read the two paragraphs above, because to me, they sound inappropriately patronizing. Suggesting that my reply may be off-topic -- when I was simply responding to your own post -- comes across as passive-aggressive bullying. I'm sure that was not your intent, and I don't take offense easily, so its not a bother to me. However, if you'd like to address this with me further, I suggest that we both use the PM feature.
You're right, Berner. I did carry it too far and I apologize. I'll PM you in a few minutes.
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Old April 5th, 2010, 04:27 PM   #40 (permalink)
 
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Wimax and LTE are not competing against each other. There is no winner/loser. They are not made to destroy each other. Wimax is going no where. Ultimately wimax will have more coverage. Why?

Because cities will use wimax for everything from parking meters to free wimax. Cables will use it as last mile of service. Walmart will use it for connections from store to store. Every corporation will use it to replace wifi.

And guess what? a wimax phone will beable to use all those towers for free. That is the wonderful thing about wimax, they standard says any app, any device, and any founding carrier. LTE is only a cellphone standard, only going to be used by cellphones. Comparing them is like comparing current 3g cdma to wifi.


Completely different uses. Wimax is made to bring everything you own a broadband connection. Your home, your car, your phone, your netbook, your work, your tv, everything. LTE is only for you mobile phone. LTE does not have the bandwidth to do any more. Wimax has enough bandwidth, to bring every home, pc, cellphone, a 100mbs connection and still have more bandwidth left over for all of lte uses. That is the problem. LTE has very little bandwidth. Not much more then what is being used today, but the current cellphones.

That is why sprint when with them. Because in the end. Every major company, city, county, state, and country store will have a wimax connection. Comcast has not even started it's roll out of wimax. Either has Time/Warner. lte and wimax are both good techs. Wimax will be more available around the world. LTE is going to be very limited in bandwidth. Let me make this clear.

Wimax will be installed and used more in the united states and around the world, by far. But LTE will be used by more cell phones. It is even possible for sprint to use lte, if they choose to. But it is not some stupid betamax/vhs thing. There is no winner/loser. There is only wifi/bluetooth/cdma/evo/gsm/htspa thing.
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Old April 5th, 2010, 04:34 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Wimax and LTE are not competing against each other. There is no winner/loser. There is only wifi/bluetooth/cdma/evo/gsm/htspa thing.
Yes that is correct:

Beceem's BCS500 4G modem splices WiMAX and LTE into one chip, sampling later this year -- Engadget
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Old April 5th, 2010, 04:36 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Berner View Post
Betamax format came first, and was arguably technically superior to VHS format. And yet today the very phrase "betamax" is used derisively to refer to failed or outdated technology. Sony's purported mishandling of betamax is one of the best-known "cautionary tales" in the tech industry.

In a standards war, its not always enough to be first or even best.
Thanks for not bringing the 8-track into this .
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Old April 5th, 2010, 04:53 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Wimax and LTE are not competing against each other. There is no winner/loser. They are not made to destroy each other. Wimax is going no where. Ultimately wimax will have more coverage. Why?

Because cities will use wimax for everything from parking meters to free wimax. Cables will use it as last mile of service. Walmart will use it for connections from store to store. Every corporation will use it to replace wifi.

And guess what? a wimax phone will beable to use all those towers for free. That is the wonderful thing about wimax, they standard says any app, any device, and any founding carrier. LTE is only a cellphone standard, only going to be used by cellphones. Comparing them is like comparing current 3g cdma to wifi.


Completely different uses. Wimax is made to bring everything you own a broadband connection. Your home, your car, your phone, your netbook, your work, your tv, everything. LTE is only for you mobile phone. LTE does not have the bandwidth to do any more. Wimax has enough bandwidth, to bring every home, pc, cellphone, a 100mbs connection and still have more bandwidth left over for all of lte uses. That is the problem. LTE has very little bandwidth. Not much more then what is being used today, but the current cellphones.

That is why sprint when with them. Because in the end. Every major company, city, county, state, and country store will have a wimax connection. Comcast has not even started it's roll out of wimax. Either has Time/Warner. lte and wimax are both good techs. Wimax will be more available around the world. LTE is going to be very limited in bandwidth. Let me make this clear.

Wimax will be installed and used more in the united states and around the world, by far. But LTE will be used by more cell phones. It is even possible for sprint to use lte, if they choose to. But it is not some stupid betamax/vhs thing. There is no winner/loser. There is only wifi/bluetooth/cdma/evo/gsm/htspa thing.
Good info, RiverOfIce and welcome to the EVO forum. I don't want to put you on the spot, but what are your sources? Do you work for Clear or Verizon or what? Just curious...

Edit: I'm not trying to start another fight, but the WiMAX/LTE comparison has been thrown up in our faces for a long time now, mostly because they both take us to the 4G (forth generation) level. From the technical standpoint they may be completely different, but from a layman's point of view, they're not, especially when your talk competition between Verizon and Sprint on 4G.
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Old April 5th, 2010, 04:56 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Interesting. Care to share your sources?

And welcome on your first post.

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Wimax and LTE are not competing against each other. There is no winner/loser. They are not made to destroy each other. Wimax is going no where. Ultimately wimax will have more coverage. Why?

Because cities will use wimax for everything from parking meters to free wimax. Cables will use it as last mile of service. Walmart will use it for connections from store to store. Every corporation will use it to replace wifi.

And guess what? a wimax phone will beable to use all those towers for free. That is the wonderful thing about wimax, they standard says any app, any device, and any founding carrier. LTE is only a cellphone standard, only going to be used by cellphones. Comparing them is like comparing current 3g cdma to wifi.


Completely different uses. Wimax is made to bring everything you own a broadband connection. Your home, your car, your phone, your netbook, your work, your tv, everything. LTE is only for you mobile phone. LTE does not have the bandwidth to do any more. Wimax has enough bandwidth, to bring every home, pc, cellphone, a 100mbs connection and still have more bandwidth left over for all of lte uses. That is the problem. LTE has very little bandwidth. Not much more then what is being used today, but the current cellphones.

That is why sprint when with them. Because in the end. Every major company, city, county, state, and country store will have a wimax connection. Comcast has not even started it's roll out of wimax. Either has Time/Warner. lte and wimax are both good techs. Wimax will be more available around the world. LTE is going to be very limited in bandwidth. Let me make this clear.

Wimax will be installed and used more in the united states and around the world, by far. But LTE will be used by more cell phones. It is even possible for sprint to use lte, if they choose to. But it is not some stupid betamax/vhs thing. There is no winner/loser. There is only wifi/bluetooth/cdma/evo/gsm/htspa thing.
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Old April 5th, 2010, 05:33 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Wimax and LTE are not competing against each other. There is no winner/loser. They are not made to destroy each other. Wimax is going no where. Ultimately wimax will have more coverage. Why?
I would still like to hear from you in regards to my previous post. You had a lot of interesting things to say and I wish you'd give us more.
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Interesting. Care to share your sources?
If you read both wiki articles on wimax/lte you will find most of what I have said. Becareful. The wimax wiki article has been highjacked by fanboys of lte. Notice you will find a problem with... on the wimax, but not on the lte. It is nice they would do such things.

Besides that you can go to WiMAX Forum and 4G Forums - Discuss 4G Wireless Broadband: WiMax, Sprint XOHM, Clearwire, LTE : 4Gforums.com

About bandwidth. once again the wiki...

Wimax has 2.3, 2.5 and 3.5Ghz band to use. 2.3Ghz for usa.

With each band being broken into 1.25 MHz, 5 MHz, 10 MHz or 20 MHz sub-bands (channels).

lte will only use 1.4, 3, 5, 10mhz sub-bands (channels) of the 700mhz. So given the standards.

lte will have at max- 7 sub channels. Wimax will have a max of 256 sub channels. (with only about 200 channels being used.)

But this is not on topic for this thread. Sorry for getting off topic.
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Old April 5th, 2010, 05:45 PM   #47 (permalink)
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If you read both wiki articles on wimax/lte you will find most of what I have said. Becareful. The wimax wiki article has been highjacked by fanboys of lte. Notice you will find a problem with... on the wimax, but not on the lte. It is nice they would do such things.

Besides that you can go to WiMAX Forum and 4G Forums - Discuss 4G Wireless Broadband: WiMax, Sprint XOHM, Clearwire, LTE : 4Gforums.com

About bandwidth. once again the wiki...

Wimax has 2.3, 2.5 and 3.5Ghz band to use. 2.3Ghz for usa.

With each band being broken into 1.25 MHz, 5 MHz, 10 MHz or 20 MHz sub-bands (channels).

lte will only use 1.4, 3, 5, 10mhz sub-bands (channels) of the 700mhz. So given the standards.

lte will have at max- 7 sub channels. Wimax will have a max of 256 sub channels. (with only about 200 channels being used.)

But this is not on topic for this thread. Sorry for getting off topic.
No, no, no, not at all. This is the EVO 4g / WiMAX thread. You seem to be the most knowledgeable of anyone that has come through here on 4G. That's why I asked in my post if your work for Sprint, Clear, Verizon or what? Usually people don't come through with that much information on their first post.
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Old April 5th, 2010, 05:47 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Becareful. The wimax wiki article has been highjacked by fanboys of lte.
I find it hilarious that there are wireless standard fanboys. I've noticed it's typically people who are boosters for whatever their preferred carrier plans to use. I wonder how many are industry folks trying to sway the debate and how many are just typical geeks debating the pros and cons of any technology. Either way, it seems like the web discussion forums amplify this tendency to splinter off into opposing groups. Maybe another example of the Greater Internet Farkwad Theory...

http://ramblingfish.com/__oneclick_uploads/2008/09/20040319h.jpg (NSFW language)
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Old April 6th, 2010, 10:02 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Good info, RiverOfIce and welcome to the EVO forum. I don't want to put you on the spot, but what are your sources? Do you work for Clear or Verizon or what? Just curious...

Edit: I'm not trying to start another fight, but the WiMAX/LTE comparison has been thrown up in our faces for a long time now, mostly because they both take us to the 4G (forth generation) level. From the technical standpoint they may be completely different, but from a layman's point of view, they're not, especially when your talk competition between Verizon and Sprint on 4G.
Bill, I think he is spot on with this. WiMax is technically the next gen of WiFi, adding massively increaded range (something like 8 miles) and ability to move from site to site and maintain the signal. However, the site to site migration requires the same carrier to manage it, I believe. So, you could not go from a Starbucks wimax to a sprint wimax, without breaking and reconnecting. I am going off old memory on what I read on wimax a few years ago...
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Old April 6th, 2010, 10:41 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Bill, I think he is spot on with this. WiMax is technically the next gen of WiFi, adding massively increaded range (something like 8 miles) and ability to move from site to site and maintain the signal. However, the site to site migration requires the same carrier to manage it, I believe. So, you could not go from a Starbucks wimax to a sprint wimax, without breaking and reconnecting. I am going off old memory on what I read on wimax a few years ago...
Norril, I agree that RiverOfIce knows his stuff. I can't fault him on anything he said. I wish he would have stuck around, because he didn't answer any of my questions. I even sent him a PM that he didn't answer. RiverOfIce registered just so he could make that post, but he didn't want to say who he worked for. I suspect he works for a LTE contractor or maybe for Verizon, but it's only a hunch. Hopefully I didn't scare him off and he'll be back. I definitely liked his post.
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