Phones That Come Rooted Stock?/Why Not Sell Root Phones?

ndh777 · February 12th, 2012, 02:03 PM

Are there any Android phones that come rooted out of the package? If so, which ones do? Are they covered under a warranty?

I had heard that those G1 Dev phones were rooted and unlocked but are there any others that like AT&T, T-Mobile, Verizon, Sprint, or other carriers sell rooted?

Also I was wondering why do we have to go through the long hacking process to get it rooted and why don't companies just give us phones that are already rooted?

IOWA · February 13th, 2012, 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ndh777

Are there any Android phones that come rooted out of the package? If so, which ones do? Are they covered under a warranty?

I had heard that those G1 Dev phones were rooted and unlocked but are there any others that like AT&T, T-Mobile, Verizon, Sprint, or other carriers sell rooted?

Also I was wondering why do we have to go through the long hacking process to get it rooted and why don't companies just give us phones that are already rooted?

Simple. Carriers want control. Root gives the consumer control.

ndh777 · February 13th, 2012, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IOWA

Simple. Carriers want control. Root gives the consumer control.

Sounds reasonable lol

aysiu · February 13th, 2012, 09:37 AM

I think it's a holdover from the "dumbphone" days--thinking of phones more as appliances than computers. Over the years, smartphones have gotten so powerful, they're basically like low-end computers, so some people want root access (because that's what they'd have on their computers at home). Of course, not enough people want it for things to change... not yet.

Roze · February 13th, 2012, 10:02 AM

It's because most buyers aren't smart enough to handle a phone that will give them full access to the system. The only developer phones that you have are the Google Nexus line. These phones require root and you still need to unlock the signed boot loader. Compared to most phones out there, both of these steps are relatively easy

It's safer to have the bootloader signs and for those that want to, they can simply unlock it. Just imagine how many stupid people will be crying that they brick their phone and demand a new phone?

OEM used to not only signed their bootloaders...they also encrypted, which makes it really hard to hack. Motorola is known for their encrypted bootloaders. A lot of OEM have heard the demand of the root community and have made it quite easy to unlock your phone's bootloader. HTC, Samsung and LG have websites where you put your phone IMIE in and they will give you the code to unlock the bootloader.

Just remember, rooting and unlocking your bootloader VOID you right to your warranty. This is not something most people want to lose. So can you imagine if you tell someone that bought a new phone, that they don't have warranty on it?

ndh777 · February 13th, 2012, 05:08 PM

Yeah. That's true.

My phone is rooted and has been rooted since my first Android phone almost two years ago and I can't really see things any other way. I understand like why people do, I was just curious as to why carriers/manufacturers would make it difficult and if they did sell phones rooted just out of pure curiosity.

Thanks for the answers. It solved my question and answered my curiosity

aysiu · February 13th, 2012, 05:53 PM

Rooting my Galaxy Nexus was quite easy, as was unlocking the boot loader. The biggest pain for me was rooting the MyTouch 4G (aka HTC Glacier).

valorian · February 14th, 2012, 01:27 PM

This post is a good example of why phones do not come rooted.

link removed: no need to make am example of the poor guy

Unforgiven · February 14th, 2012, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by valorian

This post is a good example of why phones do not come rooted.

link removed: no need to make am example of the poor guy

I was thinking about the same thread

. I actually subscribed to the it to see how it would be handled because I was speechless

Roze · February 14th, 2012, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pupkact

I was thinking about the same thread

. I actually subscribed to the it to see how it would be handled because I was speechless

Seriously...what's the point of having an Android smartphone

aysiu · February 14th, 2012, 02:16 PM

There are plenty of ways to mess up your phone without it being rooted, and a lot of those ways include trying (and failing) to root it. If you gave people root access to begin with, they wouldn't have any more problems than they do now.

valorian · February 14th, 2012, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aysiu

There are plenty of ways to mess up your phone without it being rooted, and a lot of those ways include trying (and failing) to root it. If you gave people root access to begin with, they wouldn't have any more problems than they do now.

What could someone do to an un-rooted phone to render it unusable as the person in the thread I posted did with their rooted phone? You can do a WHOLE LOT more damage to your phone when rooted if you do not know what you are doing.

Roze · February 14th, 2012, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aysiu

There are plenty of ways to mess up your phone without it being rooted, and a lot of those ways include trying (and failing) to root it. If you gave people root access to begin with, they wouldn't have any more problems than they do now.

You know your argument makes absolutely no sense. Before anyone start rooting, they should learn all they can about it. That's what I did and most people on here. I visited XDA and the root subforum of my phone. I post questions of what I don't know. I take notes of the steps I need to root. I make sure that I understand every single step. I will ask the dev or anyone knowledgeable if I don't.

You are an idiot if you root your phone blindly; without doing any research. You are taking the risk of bricking your phone when you root it and then you might end up messing up the system.

Now give root to a person who has no idea what root is, he/she sees that he/she has the ability to delete apps. Well, he/she sees all of these apps that well...are useless or they don't need without thinking what the system might need them for and goes deleting them. Do they make a ROM nandroid backup? Nope. Would they even KNOW what and how to do a backup of their ROM?

The person I quoted above rooted successfully, then then went and started deleting crucial apps that the system needs to run.

Yeah...it's really smart giving everyone a rooted phone....

aysiu · February 14th, 2012, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by valorian

What could someone do to an un-rooted phone to render it unusable as the person in the thread I posted did with their rooted phone? You can do a WHOLE LOT more damage to your phone when rooted if you do not know what you are doing.

Well, as the person in that thread amply demonstrated--the phone came unrooted, and you can still mess it up. As I said before, most people brick their phones trying to root the phone. If the phone came rooted, you would have less chance of bricking it.

aysiu · February 14th, 2012, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roze

You are an idiot if you root your phone blindly; without doing any research. You are taking the risk of bricking your phone when you root.

Yes, and as you can see, selling people unrooted phones does not prevent them from being idiots.

Quote:

Now give root to a person who has no idea what root is, he/she sees that he/she has the ability to delete apps. Well, he/she sees all of these apps that well...are useless or they don't need without thinking what the system might need them for and goes deleting them. Do they make a ROM nandroid backup? Nope. Would they even KNOW what and how to do a backup of their ROM?

If they had root access to begin with, most people wouldn't even install a rom in the first place, so they could easily factory reset.

IOWA · February 14th, 2012, 03:04 PM

The obvious solution would be to sell them without root access, and include a software that will one click root it. And I really mean one click.

Slug · February 14th, 2012, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aysiu

Well, as the person in that thread amply demonstrated--the phone came unrooted, and you can still mess it up.

Incorrect. The phone may have originally been unrooted, but the user rooted it and then deleted files that couldn't be accessed otherwise.

Now imagine what could happen if complete novices had that level of access to the file system 'out-of-the-box'.....

Unforgiven · February 14th, 2012, 03:16 PM

I would think that one click root is the worst thing for new users, and I use them now. Learning how to root your phone the hard way gives you a lot of insight into how Android is put together. You will also see the pitfalls others have run into and learn how to avoid them or recover from them. You learn things like never do anything in recovery without doing a nandroid. Don't delete files, rename them to apk.bak so if it borks your phone, just name it back and you are all set. Make sure you know how to, and have the files at hand, restore your phone to factory. Most of us that have successfully rooted multiple phones started by doing this research at one point or another and we now take what we know for granted.

argedion · February 14th, 2012, 03:16 PM

There are several reasons that phones do not come rooted.

1. Carriers want control over what you have on the phone and how its used.
2. Most people don't really want them so we have the popularity of iPhones and Windows phones.
3. Local technical Service. If I can fix the minor issues of my phone by running a new rom or kernel then why would I want to go to the local service center and pay them 32 + to look and "Fix" my phone?
4. Cost of Repairs - With the Carrier giving you a phone that has a specific ROM and Kernel it keeps their cost of repairs down. Imagine trying to fix an Evo with a ROM and Kernel you know nothing about? It was a beta that someone did themselves and never had it go further than a few people.
5. It would be harder for them to collect data on how we use our phones what times of the day we use it most. Peak hours vs Non Peak hours. And even personal information if they so choose. (anyone remember CIQ)

I would imagine if you bought a rooted phone from a Carrier then it would come with no warranty and you would be screwed if a ligitimate hardware issues came about.

but lets face it some people can't chew gum and walk at the same time. Would you want to go behind them and fix what they have messed up? Imagine how long a phone call would take for that. Major expences for the Carrier's

I do think that it would be nice if you were able to request it to be rooted. With a hardware warranty as long as the kernel is an approved kernel. I really don't understand why these companies wouldn't want you to learn about nandroids and how to backup but again chewing gum and walking. Damn Stupid People.

argedion · February 14th, 2012, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pupkact

Don't delete files, rename them to apk.bak

I actually suggest freezing them and making sure that there will be no issues with out them.

I do agree with the rest of what you said and think you said it quite nicely. Just wanted to point out what I feel is a better alternative for removing system apps.

Unforgiven · February 14th, 2012, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by argedion

I actually suggest freezing them and making sure that there will be no issues with out them.

I do agree with the rest of what you said and think you said it quite nicely. Just wanted to point out what I feel is a better alternative for removing system apps.

I think that is essentially freezing them does is rename them, but I could be wrong.

Frisco · February 14th, 2012, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slug

...imagine what could happen if complete novices had that (root) level of access to the file system 'out-of-the-box'.....

Well, they do have that access.. actually a few minutes "out of the box," of course. We see root procedure requests all day from brand new users joining here within an hour or so of bringing home their new device.

Some are back railing about issues and some are not, and only remain around looking for ROMs or more info on "what to do now that I'm rooted." We've seen this in just about every device area of Android Forums.

I'm thinking that a choice as to a rooted or non-rooted Android device might not make much difference at all in user problems across the whole population of Android purchasers, especially if a bit of instruction were included with the rooted versions.

IOWA · February 14th, 2012, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slug

Incorrect. The phone may have originally been unrooted, but the user rooted it and then deleted files that couldn't be accessed otherwise.

Now imagine what could happen if complete novices had that level of access to the file system 'out-of-the-box'.....

Imagine if people had compelete root access to Linux computers, Windows, ans OSX... oh wait...

People need to stop being treated like children.

ndh777 · February 14th, 2012, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by valorian

This post is a good example of why phones do not come rooted.

link removed: no need to make am example of the poor guy

Haha! Omg! Like poor guy/gal but that was funny. Luckily that can be a very easy fix for most popular devices. Sadly their device is unpopular and may not have the community and ROMs to write the errors.

I can see clearly why Android devices don't come rooted after that thread.

argedion · February 14th, 2012, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frisco

Well, they do have that access.. actually a few minutes "out of the box," of course. We see root procedure requests all day from brand new users joining here within an hour or so of bringing home their new device.

Some are back railing about issues and some are not, and only remain around looking for ROMs or more info on "what to do now that I'm rooted." We've seen this in just about every device area of Android Forums.

I'm thinking that a choice as to a rooted or non-rooted Android device might not make much difference at all in user problems across the whole population of Android purchasers, especially if a bit of instruction were included with the rooted versions.

True however with the instructions provided I have only this to offer

On a Hair Dryer they have on the "Warning Label" Do not use in Shower!! Why Because someone Sued a Hair Dryer Company Because their Loved one did not know you were not supposed to dry your hair in the shower.

I do not know about most people but this reaks stupid all over it. Oh and lets not forget the woman who spilled her "Hot" Coffee on herself and sued and won.

I do think though that if people are willing to learn then they should be giving a rooted phone. However I think it should be on you if you destroy such phone because you lacked the intelligence to fully comprehend what you were doing.

chanchan05 · February 14th, 2012, 06:31 PM

From what I see, its a matter of warranty issue. In the most basic sense, when you buy a device from a manufacturer, they give you a guarantee that it would work the way it should perfectly out of the back, this is called the warranty. Now if you had root access, you have ability to change the settings and scripts that the manufacturer made, thereby anything which broke the phone with those changing is not anymore the fault of the manufacturer but of the user thus the warranty is voided.

aysiu · February 14th, 2012, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chanchan05

From what I see, its a matter of warranty issue. In the most basic sense, when you buy a device from a manufacturer, they give you a guarantee that it would work the way it should perfectly out of the back, this is called the warranty. Now if you had root access, you have ability to change the settings and scripts that the manufacturer made, thereby anything which broke the phone with those changing is not anymore the fault of the manufacturer but of the user thus the warranty is voided.

When you buy a computer (like a laptop), you get root access, and there's still a manufacturer's warranty.

xmr405o · February 14th, 2012, 06:47 PM

Just like the old saying...

Guns don't kill people, People kill people. Rooting doesn't brick phones, People brick phones.

Unforgiven · February 14th, 2012, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xmr405o

Just like the old saying...

Guns don't kill people, People kill people. Rooting doesn't brick phones, People brick phones.

When I was pounding code I always felt that the more you idiot proofed your program the world always came up with a better idiot

.

argedion · February 14th, 2012, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aysiu

When you buy a computer (like a laptop), you get root access, and there's still a manufacturer's warranty.

the warranty is conditional to the software / hardware combination that is on the computer. So if you Take off Ms Windows and Install Linux and send it in for warranty work they will charge you for the work because the computer is not in its "Native State"

aysiu · February 14th, 2012, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by argedion

the warranty is conditional to the software / hardware combination that is on the computer. So if you Take off Ms Windows and Install Linux and send it in for warranty work they will charge you for the work because the computer is not in its "Native State"

And so would it be if they sold rooted phones. As long as you had the native Android rom on there, the warranty would hold.

argedion · February 14th, 2012, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aysiu

And so would it be if they sold rooted phones. As long as you had the native Android rom on there, the warranty would hold.

Thats just it for me I would have to remove the current ROM and restore the original. However if the phone had a hardware issue this could prevent me from doing so then I would not be warranted. I use AOSP not Sense.

chrlswltrs · February 14th, 2012, 08:18 PM

While I root all of my phones I do not think any of them should be sold rooted. The average person would screw up their phone very easily if it was already rooted. Not having root access keeps them safe from their own ignorance.

I do however, think that all phones should be root able and have unlock able bootloaders for those of us that do know what we are doing, or at least know enough to ask before we brick it!

Frisco · February 14th, 2012, 09:57 PM

It's just a phone and mini computer.

Manufacturers probably don't care about the root exploits, but carriers don't see them as just phone/mini computers, they see them as ad agency access to consumers, thus the bloatware that requires root to remove in most devices (although there's a slight trend now toward some of the junk being user-opt-out).

Allowing for a rooted device/non-rooted device choice seems reasonable, even though as pointed out earlier the instructions would likely be rather anemic.

$250 for a RAZR Maxx non-rooted and containing bloatware, $350 rooted with access to "/" and apk etc removal privileges? Seems reasonable.

chrlswltrs · February 14th, 2012, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frisco

It's just a phone and mini computer.

Manufacturers probably don't care about the root exploits, but carriers don't see them as just phone/mini computers, they see them as ad agency access to consumers, thus the bloatware that requires root to remove in most devices (although there's a slight trend now toward some of the junk being user-opt-out).

Allowing for a rooted device/non-rooted device choice seems reasonable, even though as pointed out earlier the instructions would likely be rather anemic.

$250 for a RAZR Maxx non-rooted and containing bloatware, $350 rooted with access to "/" and apk etc removal privileges? Seems reasonable.

If the higher price phone came with Vanilla Android and the overlay was on optional download I would definitely pay more!! Otherwise I would just buy the cheaper one and root and remove stuff myself.

chanchan05 · February 15th, 2012, 05:54 AM

This is another reason why phones should not come rooted from stock:

link removed: no need to make am example of the poor guy

Kelmar · February 15th, 2012, 06:14 AM

Hey everyone,

I've removed links/quotes of the guy having a problem with his phone. Please don't repost them.

Here at AF we welcome all and we help all. Sometimes people don't make the best decisions (as was clearly shown) but we don't want to single those people out nor do we want to use them as specific examples. Imagine how you would feel if you stumbled across a thread where others blatantly made fun of your errors or used you as an example of "why xxxxx shouldn't happen."

We need to show that same courtesy and respect to the other guy.

Thanks!

Frisco · February 15th, 2012, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pupkact

When I was pounding code I always felt that the more you idiot proofed your program the world always came up with a better idiot

.

lol.. that remark seems to be only about 5% joke but 95% truth.

Maybe "idiot" should be replaced with "pioneers" or "people pushing the envelop," "living on the edge." .. ok, "idiot."

Rush Lindsay · February 15th, 2012, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Also I was wondering why do we have to go through the long hacking processto getitrooted and why don't companies just give us phones that are already rooted?

I'm glad they didn't...cause then we would have a lot of "support" issues to resolve.

Roze · February 15th, 2012, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frisco

It's just a phone and mini computer.

Manufacturers probably don't care about the root exploits, but carriers don't see them as just phone/mini computers, they see them as ad agency access to consumers, thus the bloatware that requires root to remove in most devices (although there's a slight trend now toward some of the junk being user-opt-out).

Allowing for a rooted device/non-rooted device choice seems reasonable, even though as pointed out earlier the instructions would likely be rather anemic.

$250 for a RAZR Maxx non-rooted and containing bloatware, $350 rooted with access to "/" and apk etc removal privileges? Seems reasonable.

So what kind of warranty does the rooted RAZR Maxx expect to have? The SAME as the non-rooted? Lets say all of the non-rooted is sold out and there's only the rooted left. So the customers buy the rooted one and they don't know shit about Android and did something stupid like delete every single system app on the phone and it's stuck in a boot-up loop. They should get a new one right? It's not THEIR fault that the phone is now a brick as they were sold the rooted phone.

Just imagine the cost that the carriers must now incurred for damage phones due to root? They can't say that there's no warranty for a BRAND NEW PHONE.

Frisco · February 15th, 2012, 08:55 AM

Well, most of this is tongue-in-cheek speculation, because it's likely never going to happen, but I'm sure if it did come about there would have to be adjustments in warranty and return policies. Experienced rooters would expect only hardware warranty I suppose, whereas non-rooted would be the same as now.

Weird to speculate on, but not completely unrealistic if there is a market perceived for it.

IOWA · February 15th, 2012, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frisco

Well, most of this is tongue-in-cheek speculation, because it's likely never going to happen, but I'm sure if it did come about there would have to be adjustments in warranty and return policies. Experienced rooters would expect only hardware warranty I suppose, whereas non-rooted would be the same as now.

Weird to speculate on, but not completely unrealistic if there is a market perceived for it.

I'd be all over hardware only warranties.

Roze · February 15th, 2012, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IOWA

I'd be all over hardware only warranties.

HTC actually did this with the Nexus One. Members posted that they were having hardware issues with their Nexus One with unlock bootloaders and when they got it back and weren't charged for the maintenance, their Nexus One was S-Off (bootloader got relocked).

argedion · February 15th, 2012, 08:07 PM

I get a phone (Non Rooted) The guy I work with gets the same phone (rooted) I see the battery difference. Speed difference, and all the benifits. Then I decide that I want my phone to be rooted. I find the method and do so. So do I now owe Sprint the extra hundred they charged my coworker to get his phone rooted?

Roze also brings up a good point. No more non rooted for the phone you want so will the Carrier Charged me the extra 100 because they ran out of stock?

I think they should offer a easy supported method to root the phone for those of us who wish to root. Warranty of course should be limited to Hardware only. I enjoy having a rooted phone that I can control, My Wife however could care less as long as the phone will do what she wants it to do.

However chances of this is very slim. Not to say it won't happen just don't see it being an option in the near future.

ndh777 · February 16th, 2012, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by argedion

I get a phone (Non Rooted) The guy I work with gets the same phone (rooted) I see the battery difference. Speed difference, and all the benifits. Then I decide that I want my phone to be rooted. I find the method and do so. So do I now owe Sprint the extra hundred they charged my coworker to get his phone rooted?

Roze also brings up a good point. No more non rooted for the phone you want so will the Carrier Charged me the extra 100 because they ran out of stock?

I think they should offer a easy supported method to root the phone for those of us who wish to root. Warranty of course should be limited to Hardware only. I enjoy having a rooted phone that I can control, My Wife however could care less as long as the phone will do what she wants it to do.

However chances of this is very slim. Not to say it won't happen just don't see it being an option in the near future.

I think you're right but then again they might not.

In one way, I think that they realize that something like a common issue like the charging ports on our Evos that break on most of them are definitely not that of a software mod and something like a cracked screen wouldn't be covered under it but then you have things like the other thread that we were talking about where you have kernels that people use for their phones such as SBC that are suspected to cause battery failure which can be classified as a hardware failure. Or can it not since it is interchangeable?

I suppose it would depend on carrier. I doubt most carriers would allow it since people are getting away with stuff like free tethering via rooting because it opens up every area of your phone including ones that they intentionally hide from us such as that.

If they charged an extra $100 or so just at the beginning when I buy the phone and limit my warranty to strictly hardware, I think they would still be coming out on top. The extra $100 would sway lots of people from thinking about having their phones rooted or it would cause them to just go elsewhere and sometimes along the lines would have them scared by the stories of said guy from thread who completely fried their phones and are now screwed because they were inexperienced.

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