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Old January 4th, 2013, 10:52 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Well perhaps I just dislike Android being a royal bully with the unnecessary (and largely unhelpful) crash dialogs, especially the useless wait dialogs. For a system that seems synonymous with control I find it hard to believe I cannot turn those off, or why I cannot use ALL my internal storage to install apps to. I mean why can't I install a 300KB app when there is like 10 MB left? 300KB < 10 MB. Come on!

Reminds me of the classic Mac days, when I actually hated Apple. When they crashed they had sound effects of cars crashing or breaking glass, which did nothing but annoy the user. When Android says 'unfortunately, Google Play has stopped' what purpose does that serve other than annoying me? It offers no actual details or help in diagnosing it?

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Old January 4th, 2013, 11:05 AM   #52 (permalink)
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None of my devices have crashed (Xperia U on ICS, N7 on latest JB, Wildfire S Rooted, Custom (WC3) ROM. Generic Allwinner tablet on ICS. In general use there's not that much apparent difference inspeed between the tablets. the main differences I've noticed are:
N7 has MUCH better screen, WiFi connectivity and Battery life. It's also faster rendering web pages and is a better GPS than my Garmin.
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Old January 4th, 2013, 02:04 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alicemenezes View Post
Definitely agree with nickdalzell.... I've been using android too from the first version up till now and it definitely keeps getting hung up and lots of lag issues and a dozen other "speed" problems its got. The "force close" is like THE most frustrating thing in an android. Never used an iOS but heard that it never ever crashes.
I'm on my 3rd android device (1.6 to 4.0) and had forced closes on all. I can't prove it's bad apps but I install a lot of them. There are advantages to IOS closed shop devices and apps but I prefer the android approach.

When I have problems I search the forums. Recently I removed the Google+ widget and may have solved a persistent "com.android.launcher is not responding". Lots of people recommend cache cleaners etc. but that does not find the original cause. Blaming the hardware or o/s is not useful. Odds are greater that it's an app hogging memory or cpu. The list of 4 things that cause problems posted above is right on.
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Old January 4th, 2013, 02:31 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Unfortunately no search on any forum or search engine has helped me. It's either 'let android manage apps and forget about closing them' (no, I want to have control myself, I don't feel happy letting any OS do that on its own) or 'you cannot install apps when space drops to 15mb' (again, I don't care. If I wanted more limits and rules I'd never have used Android in the first place) and such like that. I want to install apps no matter what. I want the force close and wait dialogs gone. I want apps to crash silently and wait without me having to know. I rooted for crying out loud I should have control over everything. I can close apps in iOS and they never start back up until I open them. But I don't even get that in Android.

I am certain there are ways to fix all of that, and I must admit I never had to reboot JB and never got any dialogs with it but I don't run JB on all my stuff. But so far no help in disabling dialogs for crashes, no help in bypassing the storage limit on installs. Either it cannot be done, or no one, not even devs, know how. Seriously what good is having 15mb of usable space just sitting there, completely inaccessible by the user? I don't care how Android was designed, I just want the problem fixes no matter the risk. I accepted risks when I rooted so I really could care less how Android was "meant to be"
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Old January 4th, 2013, 04:22 PM   #55 (permalink)
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My tablet had over 1005 hrs of uptime before the last update--that's over 42 days. My N4 has also been rock solid for the short time that I've had it. I did however have problems with my Sensation when running Opensensation and VI, but those were mostly attributed to a lack of updated drivers outside of the Android source tree. A Jelly Bean community ROM will probably never give you the performance and stability of a stock 4.2 build. Try to keep an open mind and don't base your convictions on cheap chinese devices or beta ROMs.

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However I do not like false claims (ios crashing more than android)
I wouldn't call that a false claim based on the study:

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Crittercism analyzed a total of more than 214 million app launches from November and December 2011 from apps that use its service (see graph at top of this article). There were about 3 times more app launches for iOS that Crittercism analyzed, about 162 million to 52 million. But the analysis examined app crashes as a percentage of each app launch, so this data takes out the issue of there being more iOS than Android apps. In other words for each iOS app and each Android app how often percentage-wise do they crash?

In the top quartile of apps, Android apps crashed 0.15% of the time they launched, while top quartile iOS apps crashed 0.51% of the time. In the second quartile of apps, Android apps crashed 0.73% of the time and iOS apps crashed 1.47% of their launches. In the third quartile of apps, Android apps crashed 2.97% of the time, while iOS apps crashed 3.66% of the time.
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Old January 4th, 2013, 04:43 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickdalzell View Post

I accepted risks when I rooted so I really could care less how Android was "meant to be"
Can I just ask, wen u say u cud care less.. do u mean u COULDN'T care less.. basically the exact opposite of what you wrote..

I've seen it before on forums.. is It an American phrase..
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Old January 4th, 2013, 04:48 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Nick, I suspect that some of the you want, such as the wait/close dialogs, would require changing the Android source code and recompiling rather than changing an environment variable.
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Old January 4th, 2013, 04:52 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Yeah, it's slang for couldn't care less over here, both are used in equal measure.

Much like irregardless in place of regardless, or orientated in place of oriented, same thing, slang.
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Old January 4th, 2013, 04:56 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Actually I've never met irregardless! Decades on the net, on the web before it had pictures, and many months spent Stateside, not to mention TV and film, and it's passed me by totally.

You really do learn something every day

Now I guess I'll hear it 6 times this week...
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Old January 4th, 2013, 05:53 PM   #60 (permalink)
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I have so far worked around the install limit by forcing apps to install to /system/app instead of /data/app where they normally go (have over 50mb free there but only 12mb left in /data) but that still doesn't allow me the last 12MB which I feel I have the right to use.


As for the ANR dialogs, there is an option in ICS/JB to disable or allow them for background processes instead of their default being foreground only, so the means does exist to disable or enable them for foreground I would assume, although no such option exists in Dev options. The ANR dialogs don't exist in GB (although force close does) and were previously in eclair. Why they added them back in the newer versions is beyond me. They are nothing short of annoying no unnecessary unless you like being told the obvious.

In my experience, I've had more apps crash on Android than Windows and iOS combined. And it's not like I wouldn't know, Android never shuts up about it!
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Old January 4th, 2013, 09:38 PM   #61 (permalink)
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I think I've only had an app crash once on my RAZR maxx HD (dolphin, when on NetsDaily, loading about 1k comments on an artcile) as opposed to my itouch, which something crashes once a week (most of the time the browser, when loading normal things, including this site).
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Old January 4th, 2013, 10:07 PM   #62 (permalink)
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In iOS I can bring up recent apps and force close them, and I only keep a couple open at a time, so this may help, plus I have never used 'legacy' iOS (iPhone OS as it was termed) so I cannot speak to that effect. But I don't even have that level of control over Android apps. Even using an auto start blocker I find apps running or restarting that shouldnt be running at all! Things like 'videos' or 'google play' when I am using neither. I cannot make them shut down and remain that way. Call me a control freak but I don't care how Android is designed, I feel that I have a right to control what opens and closes, and what stays running in the background, and I hate having the OS spawn apps that shouldn't be running for the pure heck of it! Searching for a way to disable Android's built in task management only gets the same response--'let android do it, don't worry about what's running' well I have problems more when I 'let Android do it' so I want to so it myself. I don't like the idea of turning over all control to any operating system. I don't want twenty apps running that I hardly ever use.

I am certain there is a fix to all my troubles, however it should be that way out of the box. I will find some way even if I must hack it myself.
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Old January 5th, 2013, 05:41 AM   #63 (permalink)
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In iOS I can bring up recent apps and force close them, and I only keep a couple open at a time, so this may help, plus I have never used 'legacy' iOS (iPhone OS as it was termed) so I cannot speak to that effect. But I don't even have that level of control over Android apps. Even using an auto start blocker I find apps running or restarting that shouldnt be running at all! Things like 'videos' or 'google play' when I am using neither. I cannot make them shut down and remain that way. Call me a control freak but I don't care how Android is designed, I feel that I have a right to control what opens and closes, and what stays running in the background, and I hate having the OS spawn apps that shouldn't be running for the pure heck of it! Searching for a way to disable Android's built in task management only gets the same response--'let android do it, don't worry about what's running' well I have problems more when I 'let Android do it' so I want to so it myself. I don't like the idea of turning over all control to any operating system. I don't want twenty apps running that I hardly ever use.

I am certain there is a fix to all my troubles, however it should be that way out of the box. I will find some way even if I must hack it myself.
1. iOS has certain system services running in the background as well, you don't see it. For example, Whatsapp or Viber is running in the background on iOS all the time for them to receive messages. On Android 4.0 and after, you have the same option of pulling up all recently opened apps and removing them from cache with one swipe.

2. Some of the apps aren't running, their cached to memory.

3. Why just not shift to iOS then?
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Old January 5th, 2013, 08:45 AM   #64 (permalink)
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@nickdalzell: You *really * should read this, particularly for his remarks about the smoothness, speed and stability of Android...

http://m.gizmodo.com/5973073/an-iphone-lovers-confession-i-switched-to-the-nexus-4-completely

And yes, my Nexus 4 is every bit that good!

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Old January 5th, 2013, 08:49 AM   #65 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chanchan05 View Post
1. iOS has certain system services running in the background as well, you don't see it. For example, Whatsapp or Viber is running in the background on iOS all the time for them to receive messages. On Android 4.0 and after, you have the same option of pulling up all recently opened apps and removing them from cache with one swipe.

2. Some of the apps aren't running, their cached to memory.

3. Why just not shift to iOS then?
1. swiping away apps in the recent doesn't do much. I thought it closed them but they remain active under 'running apps' in Go Launcher, and using another app to determine memory use, they are occupying RAM. iOS doesn't have Facebook, Video player, App Store, Maps and such running until I open them. in Android I got Facebook, Play Store, and many other non-essential crap running that I only use a little, but they shouldn't be open all the time! I close them and they just open back up. Autostarts can't keep that from happening. even when all 'receivers' are turned off, the app still spawns itself.

2. I do not care. cached or not they're there and I want them to stay closed when I kill them. when they're 'cached' they are using up internal storage (the dalvik cache)

3. I use iOS a lot. but I do like some of Android's customization features, and I can't carry an iPad around in my pocket. i'm saving money for an iPod touch though unless I can fix what I find wrong with Android-I know it can be done! it's just no one is out there helping people do it. they keep telling us to let Android manage apps. I don't want my OS managing anything! what good is having an OS regarded as letting the user have control (and not limits like is often associated with Apple and Microsoft) if I can't control anything? I mean is control in Android only meant to apply to themes? I could do that on a BlackBerry.

point being I want to control the system not the other way around. there has to be a way to turn off the ANR dialogs. force apps to silently crash like in iOS. I want all control over which apps run and don't run. apps shouldn't load without my telling them to. you can say 'Let Android do it on its own it will kill apps when memory is needed' till you are blue in the face. the fact is when I do that my phone's memory dips to 5MB RAM remaining and locks up. I can only keep it stable by force closing apps and even then, some of them start back up. I do know apps such as ES File explorer, Music player, and 1Mobile Market will stay shut down like they're supposed to, but I don't even use GPS. why is 'Maps' running? why is 'Google Play' running when I never use that abomination anymore? why is 'Calendar' running? I never set dates!

if you like the idea of giving up control and turning it over to an operating system, fine. I do not feel the same way. and tons of users who ask questions on multiple forums about finding methods of keeping apps closed until they personally open them really do not want to hear 'let Android do it'.
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Old January 5th, 2013, 09:24 AM   #66 (permalink)
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2. I do not care. cached or not they're there and I want them to stay closed when I kill them. when they're 'cached' they are using up internal storage (the dalvik cache)
The dalvik cache in internal storage shouldn't be confused with caching an app in RAM. The dex files are created when an app is installed, and occupy internal storage whether the app is running or not.
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Old January 5th, 2013, 09:28 AM   #67 (permalink)
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fair enough, however RAM is a limited resource, too, and I should have the ability to control which apps run and don't run. when I close an app, I expect it to stay closed. think of it like this. if you buy a television set, would you like it if the TV turned itself on for some odd reason, eating up electricity you pay for? oh sure, you can claim the TV is so energy efficient that any loss of electricity is negligible, like people say apps being cached in Android use negligible RAM, but still, if you turn your TV off, you sure don't want it turning itself back on without your permission right? if a TV did that, I usually return it. it's not a lot to expect from any OS, regardless of which, to have control over which apps run. I want apps to run when I open them, not hang around in the background unless they are needed (I accept widgets, weather stuff, but really, Music when i'm not listening to it? I don't keep my stereo in the house on when i'm not listening to music! even if it is a bit faster to have it on and ready)
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Old January 5th, 2013, 09:50 AM   #68 (permalink)
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RAM usage doesn't matter. In Linux/Android unused RAM is wasted RAM.

You're worrying needlessly about running processes. Do you walk around worrying about whether your liver or kidneys are 'running' even though they may not need to at that moment? No...you assume your body knows what it's doing and don't give your liver or kidneys a thought. That's how you should think about Android.

Look at my signature. I've used Linux and Android a *long* time. I never worry about RAM or processes and everything works great.

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Old January 5th, 2013, 10:01 AM   #69 (permalink)
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with all due respect, as previously stated, I really do not care how it was 'designed'. I do not want apps running until I tell them to. I want to allow only certain apps to even run in the background. I prefer to control what does and does not run. I refuse to allow any OS to do that for me! maybe you like it but I don't. now all I ask is if there is a way to stop tasks from auto-starting. I've tried Autostarts but it doesn't work. I tried App Quarantine but it always crashes. tried Autostart Manager but like Autostarts, even when disabling all known receivers, the apps still eventually restart. it's a basic issue. I want to stop apps from auto-starting when I force close them.

using my body is an invalid analogy. Android is not an animal or biological organism. it's an operating system. something that the user is supposed to control. no different than a computer or television set. and I know none of you want your laptop or TV turning themselves on when they feel like it. as the owner of my device I feel I have the right to control it. personal preference. when I rooted my devices I expected to gain full control over them. it's not that hard to grasp. trying to compare Android to the inner workings of an animal's body is kinda telling me that the OS has a mind of it's own. something I truly do not approve of in any mechanical or electronic device.

point is, if I 'let android manage it' the phone self-reboots, it runs super laggy, and has less than 5MB of free RAM. I know there is a problem. if I constantly force close stuff (mainly stuff that stays closed) I can get half my RAM back and things run smooth. but then eventually I see apps that shouldn't be running at all in there, and I never told them to run. that is not acceptable. I want that control, I refuse to allow the OS to do it for me. I don't trust it.

people say 'Android is Linux, it works like Linux' really do not understand. in Linux I can still close the web browser. but I cannot always stop Dolphin Browser from autostarting when it's not even being used. I can't always stop the stock browser either.
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Old January 5th, 2013, 10:10 AM   #70 (permalink)
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Personally, I think you just need a new phone. I let my phone manage itself no problems and always has around 80-100mb free doing stuff by itself. Your quest to manage your phone ruined the phone's OS itself.

Point is, no I don't think what you want can be done because its designed that way at the lowest level of the system itself. Its a Linux base and that's how Linux was designed. You have to edit the OS itself at the Linux level to turn it into Windows.
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Old January 5th, 2013, 10:19 AM   #71 (permalink)
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Your quest to manage your phone ruined the phone's OS itself.1
Agreed. I think he's mucked around with basic system functions to the point that most of his problems are his own doing.

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Old January 5th, 2013, 10:21 AM   #72 (permalink)
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As Crashdamage says, unused RAM isn't doing anything for you. This goes back to the (many) threads on why task killers are a bad idea.

Some of the things you see may be services related to apps rather than the app itself. I wonder whether "Maps" is really the google location service, for example - that is linked to the Maps app, and if you have network-based location enabled that will be active.
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Old January 5th, 2013, 10:33 AM   #73 (permalink)
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no actually all the GPS and location services are unchecked and turned off. I don't like the idea of my phone spying on me so I never use it.

Linux still gives the user control over closing apps. if I close the KDE Web Browser or the Linux port of Mozilla Firefox, it closes. it does not run anyway or minimize itself.

I think I have managed to find at least some cure for it, I tried Autostart Killer that will disable apps when they attempt to autostart, so, unlike a task killer, it won't keep killing over and over again (which is why task killers eat battery and CPU so I partly agree with your view on them) when an app so much as tries to restart, it is put into a list of apps that won't start period until I ask them to. so far it has managed to stop my voice control app from running when i'm not using it, with no side effects. but we will see how successful it is in the end. would be nice to know what is linked to what, would help my quest to keep apps closed.

BTW what about the other issues? the ANR dialogs, or the issue of not being able to access the last 15MB of space on my device?

why is it so hard for some of you to understand that some users want to manage their own device? seriously? I mean truly there are some things best left to the user to do. I don't like the idea of letting the OS control everything. I don't even like machines that seem to have a 'mind of their own'.

if Android is truly meant to be customizable for the user, and good enough for everyone, then it should be able to fit the profile of users who want to control everything about it.

and FYI, my ZTE Merit and other devices have been the most stable so long as the used RAM isn't above 250MB. so all the prior issues, the lag, crashes, and self-rebooting has been solved by having at least partial control over apps. some in part thanks to ROM toolbox Pro. but it can't do everything.
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Old January 5th, 2013, 10:45 AM   #74 (permalink)
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I expect that controlling those dialogs will require modifying and recompiling some module of the OS.

I doubt that "15MB" is a magic number, more likely 10% same as the "low storage" warning. But I don't know whether that's set by an environment variable that nobody's discovered (unlikely), something in the android source code, or in the Play Store (but if sideloading is affected as well it won't be that). Of course if you completely fill the internal storage there will be other problems, but I understand that you accept that risk.
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Old January 5th, 2013, 10:54 AM   #75 (permalink)
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when I rooted my devices I accepted many risks. it seems 15MB is the threshold. the low storage warning won't kill installs, and is set for 10% of whatever storage your device has. this can be 15MB, 150MB, even 1GB depending on capacity. I have discovered the package installer (a system app in all versions of Android) is what throws the 'insufficient storage available' and Google Play just uses that on its own. it does not have its own installer. even the installer built into rooting tools like ES File Explorer and Root Explorer do the same thing, although the message is different (out of space, install failed, etc) but for the same reason. if I get 1MB more, say it now sits at 16MB, it will install at least apps not going over that 1MB. even if it reports 15.24MB left, a 50KB app will install. the 15MB is the limit for the package installer. and it affects all installers, so there must be something the installers are looking at to determine that. the installer exits, based on that variable.

and as for the ANRs, since there is a developer option to turn them on or off for background processes, the means must exist to do it for foreground as well...at least, it seems possible.

I CAN install apps by copying them to /system/app which has a different amount of free space for some reason, and they auto-install on a reboot of the device, and show up in the list of installed apps afterwards. I think this is how system apps and bloatware get installed by some parties. but the same trick, manually copying the APK file to /data/app won't achieve the same result. the file will copy successfully, but it won't install on a reboot. I am not sure if this is a simple permissions issue or not, either.
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Old January 5th, 2013, 11:07 AM   #76 (permalink)
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The reason I suspect it might be a fraction is that I've seen failure to install myself at about 1/10 of my total internal storage (which is rather more than 15 MB) and know that changing the warning threshold doesn't affect the install limit. But that doesn't tell us where it's located. Does seem from what you say that it's in the Android ROM itself though.

Since android source code is available, it should be possible to change it, but I don't know where in the system this is set.
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Old January 5th, 2013, 11:19 AM   #77 (permalink)
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and neither do any of the other forums I searched elsewhere. either people don't see it a big issue, or they just install everything to SD. I think it is my phone's ROM. could also be version dependent. if it is indeed different then the variable must exist to be so changed in other devices. the warning threshold is what I disabled, or rather I set it so low it won't show up, but the install block either has to have a new entry to apply, similar to storage threshold, or removing an entry that already exists. if I knew exactly what the installer looks at to determine what space is available in order to throw that alert, then all i'd have to do is create an entry to bypass it similar to the Sys_Storage_Warning entry.
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Old January 6th, 2013, 01:51 PM   #78 (permalink)
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If your running your phones internal storage down to 15mb no wonder its having problems. It needs some breathing room. Run your hard drive down to 15mb or even 10% capacity in your computer and see how bad it runs. A little common sense would go a long way. If you like iOS so much, sell your devices and go buy an iPhone. Problem solved.
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Old January 6th, 2013, 03:00 PM   #79 (permalink)
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Sounds like you should design your own OS that will fit all your requirements. I don't exactly have the latest Android device, a SGS II Skyrocket, and I don't experience the issues you speak of. Is it perfect? No, but it fits my needs and gets the job done. And no crashes.
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Old January 6th, 2013, 05:23 PM   #80 (permalink)
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Honestly i have not had many crashes lately. when i first made this thread Android was throwing Force close after ANR after phantom boot and so on. lately it has been stable, so that is why the last few posts are for other issues. in fact, like i said so long as i don't allow too many apps to load in the background it seems fine. my ZTE has gone for over a couple weeks without a reboot which is new. i did manage to get the apps to run as i desire, and close. i don't use a task killer. i use a program that keeps apps from self-restarting IF i kill them. i only have so many running at one time, usually my mail programs, Facebook, launcher features, widgets and so on. the RAM is never over 250MB used and it's lag-free. my other concerns are with other limitations i am determined to fix.
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