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Old November 12th, 2012, 09:59 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Linux - Eye Candy, Free or Functionality

So here is my question (OK, multiple questions). Do you think so many are drawn to Linux because it is free?

Or because it represents a freedom that likely means very little to most "casual" users?

Or, because it is open source and many that praise OS software will never learn to edit and/or compile the free source code?

Or, because they see a cool looking UI and this eye candy sucks them in; all the while forgetting about Windows desktop replacements/alternative shells. Or not knowing uber eye candy exists? This weekend I thought about downloading Conky because I use SysMetrix and it is cool as heck iffin' you like that sort of thing.

For example, WinStep, Talisman Desktop, Aston and naturally, Microsoft Bob; the finest shell ever created for Winders. If you want Windows eye candy, these shells will provide it in spades.

Not criticizing people's choices or reasons, but it seems to me that many people decide to use Linux will either give up because they are forced to earn a few new tricks or they are hating on Microsoft or they are clueless or some/many actually know a thing or two and their reasons for hunting penguins are valid.

I wanted to try something new. I have new clothes, a new apartment and I wanted a new OS. Especially since Microsoft stopped updating Microsoft Bob, dag nabbit.

I kid you not . . . here are actual screen shots of Bob. If you think surface is a "joke" what would we say today about Bob, if MS decided to release it today?

microsoft bob - Google Search

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Old November 12th, 2012, 10:28 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Are you asking each individual why they chose it, or why others chose it?
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Old November 15th, 2012, 09:40 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I started with Linux (Mandriva 2005 on an old celeron 500 laptop with a 'massive' 126Mb RAM and 20Gb HDD) out of curiosity, nothing more. I kept on trying different Distros and desktops using Ubuntu from Edgy, Mint, Fedora, PCLOS and others. Since sometime in 2006 I've been using Linux (Mint/PCLOS) as my primary OS, dual booting with Redmond's finest on the odd occasion when I have to.

BTW I use XFCE as my main Linux desktop and Enlightenment on my Dev box.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 09:34 PM   #4 (permalink)
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If (insert flavour of linux here) does everything a user wants, the question is why not use it?

Linux is a superior OS in performance and reliability--if your applications run on it. (It'll even run a better Windows network than Windows Server.) Ubuntu is very nice and I'd build a box with it for any client who didn't need/want Windows.

Personally, I'm a PC gamer and I use Netflix, both completely rule out Linux for me (no, I'm not fiddling with WINE to do 80% of what Windows already does without fiddling); if it weren't for DirectX and Silverlight, I would run Linux.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 09:59 PM   #5 (permalink)
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To me, I choose linux due to the release cycles (I'm on a rolling release distro,) the way it looks, how it functions, and its just....so fun to tinker with. You can only do so much in windows, I feel. That being said, I understand that all the tinkering isn't for everyone...but that's why I choose it. I mean let's be honest...new releases every X months, free, nice look, and fun to tinker with? Win
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Old November 15th, 2012, 11:49 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I choose Linux because it is just plain better than windows. I have all the app's I need in Linux and have no need to fork out hundreds of dollars every few years just to keep my system updated and secure. Windows is more interested in not only making them money but all the "Partners" they have as well. I don't care to make someone else even richer than they already are.
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Old November 16th, 2012, 12:13 AM   #7 (permalink)
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I just got tired of playing the MS mind games, which is to keep you buying. When I first started using Linux, around late '90s, I realized linux being a free OS, does things Windows wouldn't/couldn't or will not do.

I just could not understand how the Free OS offered more security/stability and control then Windows, while MS hording those billions of dollars.
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Old November 17th, 2012, 09:47 AM   #8 (permalink)
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There is a difference between personal, business, and enterprise with respect to usability and TCO. Like it or not, Windows is far easier to use and far easier to administer, making it cheaper against freeware (sysadmins aren't free).

Windows isn't a better OS, it is a better marketed and targeted OS that now has much momentum.
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Old November 18th, 2012, 04:37 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Rolo42 View Post
There is a difference between personal, business, and enterprise with respect to usability and TCO. Like it or not, Windows is far easier to use and far easier to administer, making it cheaper against freeware (sysadmins aren't free).
I've read this argument many times. I have yet to see a single bit of empirical evidence that supports that sales point.

IME as an IT professional I've seen upper management make the mistake of replacing Netware and UNIX in the data center, operating under the false assumption that if a low-paid clerk or secretary can operate their Windows desktop, then the company can save lots of HR money by replacing skilled administrators with entry-level workers.

As it turns out, it takes a lot more than the ability to operate a desktop PC when it comes to managing a corporate IT infrastructure. I've seen too many bosses learn that lesson the hard way. I've been in situations where I'm the only MCSE in the whole organization, and my work is constantly being interrupted because I'm the only one who knows how to administer the Windows Server machines. I know from copious experience that it's a lot cheaper and easier to do things correctly from the start than it is to fix a large broken system.

Linux is mature enough that it has a LOT more to recommend it than the fact that it's FOSS. And the Linux distributions that are most used in corporate environments do in fact have price tags in the same ballpark as their Windows counterparts. But because the GPL license stipulates that the source code for the costly distributions must be freely available, it's cheaper to train to be a Linux administrator than it is for Windows. Linux is also a very shallow learning curve for UNIX® administrators, which means more highly experienced network engineers who can get up to speed with Linux with ease.

Every time Microsoft releases a new version of Windows, with lots of changed, new and often unnecessary new things, Windows administrators have to go back to school to master the new version and its peculiarities. This costs a lot of money that the system's owners must pay one way or another. This makes Windows very costly to maintain reliably.

BTW, it's ROI not TCO that matters in this case. People aren't property.
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Old November 18th, 2012, 04:47 PM   #10 (permalink)
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It doesn't have IE, OE, and various other pieces of crap built in. What I don't like, I can get rid of. I won't use One or the new music service, I don't want an office suite - --

I can load up on what I do want - KStars, Stellarium, Abiword, Inkscape -
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Old November 18th, 2012, 08:33 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I chose linux for a reason of all given.

I think it mostly comes down to these three, in order of importance:

1) Free
2) UI
3) Security
4) Open source

number 1 is most important because usually I usually install linux when windows fails and I don't have a windows repair disks (yeah there's other methods to get windows, but I don't trust them). Most modern manufacturers don't bother giving out the windows disks anymore- it's cheaper to just partition the hard drive and make one of them recovery. Unforunately if you kill your hard drive then you're out of luck.

After that, the reason I am happily staying with windows is because the UI and how things work. Gnome 3 is one sexy beast, and it works well. I also like razor qt and lxde- both remind me of windows, but redone for speed. both are fairly aesthetically pleasing as well.

Pretty much tied with number 2 is is security. When I used windows I was decently careful, and I got a single virus within several months, if at all. Usually I took it down before it did anything. However, for secure purchases, etc I would always use my phone. Since I was flashing a ton of roms and only restoring necessary apps, I didn't really have to worry about viruses after each wipe. Now with linux (ubuntu 12.10 x64 and soon to be openSUSE or chromeOS dual boot) I have less fears. Many features are already packed in, so I don't have to install so many applications to get things done like with windows. For those I do install, I have much more control over.

finally 4, which is somewhat farther behind. I support open source, I believe in it as a way to go. Using a linux PC only reinforces this.
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Old November 18th, 2012, 09:51 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I really like the elegance of linux. The filesystem is something marvelous. When I'm in a command prompt in Windows, I'm always wondering why they haven't implemented some more of the awesome linux features...

(inb4 powershell... )

But I'd say there are a lot of reasons for linux.... security is one. Also, depending on your field, the software is built for linux (IE: InfoSec).

All that being said, windows is great if that's what you need/want. Everyone wins.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 11:43 AM   #13 (permalink)
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You can't develop ROMs on windows. I use both at home. Linux as my host and a win 7 guest. My media centre just died and didn't want to fully function with OpenELECN my xbmc host of choice so that is windows too. Linux does a lot for me that Windows doesn't do well but the opposite is true too. Windows is my bread and butter so it'll never leave me but I do like linux.

That reminds me, time to change my theme

What gtk version does ubuntu 12.04 use?
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Old November 20th, 2012, 07:38 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I think its gtk 3.x.
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Old November 20th, 2012, 08:19 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Thanks I dont quite understand any of it. GTk3+ blah blah.
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Old November 20th, 2012, 08:21 AM   #16 (permalink)
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If you go to gnome-look.org, click the gtk3.x link
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Old November 21st, 2012, 11:17 AM   #17 (permalink)
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I really like the elegance of linux. The filesystem is something marvelous.
That's filesystems plural. Linux has its own ext[1,2,3,4] filesystems, and it supports 3rd party filesystems like ReiserFS, IBM's JFS, SGI's XFS (my favorite), NTFS...the list is very long. Linux' rich support for other OS / legacy filesystems is another thing to recommend it.

Although Windows NT came with pluggable filesystem support, I don't know of any 3rd party filesystems that were ever developed for Windows NT-Windows 8 that could be used instead of FAT/NTFS. NTFS is OK, but it's a real waste of the VFS layer without any 3rd party filesystems to use.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 03:59 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed Daemon View Post
I've read this argument many times. I have yet to see a single bit of empirical evidence that supports that sales point.
Yes you have: Windows dominates in the corporate desktop arena, even after 21 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed Daemon View Post
IME as an IT professional I've seen upper management make the mistake of replacing Netware and UNIX in the data center,
To clarify: I was talking overall corporate networks (which are largely client-networks), not data-centres. *nix destroys Windows back-end for reliability and competes cost-wise.

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under the false assumption that if a low-paid clerk or secretary can operate their Windows desktop, then the company can save lots of HR money by replacing skilled administrators with entry-level workers.
That's going from one extreme to the other (and, I agree, that happens), which doesn't negate the fact that an average Windows jockey doesn't require as much skill (pay) as a *nix one.

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As it turns out, it takes a lot more than the ability to operate a desktop PC when it comes to managing a corporate IT infrastructure.
It depends on the network; if your back end is relatively small (or run by someone else, as a lot of networks have gone) and 90% of it is comprised of clients, then client TCO is pretty much all that matters.

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I've been in situations where I'm the only MCSE in the whole organization, and my work is constantly being interrupted because I'm the only one who knows how to administer the Windows Server machines. I know from copious experience that it's a lot cheaper and easier to do things correctly from the start than it is to fix a large broken system.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that; if you mean Windows Server is completely broken, I can't agree. I've administered a few Win-based enterprise networks and build small ones (even in combat environments) without anything being completely broken. In fact, Win NT and Proxy Server 2.0 on saved the day once when--literally--the black box proxy got blown up and disconnected 1200 users from the Internet.

If you're talking about a poor/flawed design/implementation, then yes, those are [nifty] major projects and is more likely to happen with lesser-skilled MCSE types [who don't have to take a practical exam].

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Every time Microsoft releases a new version of Windows, with lots of changed, new and often unnecessary new things, Windows administrators have to go back to school to master the new version and its peculiarities.
I don't agree; having administered since WFW 3.11, the only significant change was WinNT; otherwise, it's pretty much the same. The changes are more like patch notes than learning something new.

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BTW, it's ROI not TCO that matters in this case.
Having worked directly for CIOs almost 20 years, I agree but that's not how it works in the "real" world: you can't always get the money when you need it, no matter how much better, long term, it is--and that's another issue: long term isn't a priority now. Additionally, "more reliable" at $x more cost (and learning curve/productivity loss while converting to a new way of doing things) doesn't matter when you can get "does the job" more cheaply.

Having retired from US Air Force, we pretty much use Windows for corporate/admin networks and *nix (generally Solaris--freeware of any kind is not authorised.) for weapon systems--and that's a nice balance between usability/cost (Microsoft) vs. mission-critical (Sun).
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Old November 21st, 2012, 10:06 PM   #19 (permalink)
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That's filesystems plural. Linux has its own ext[1,2,3,4] filesystems, and it supports 3rd party filesystems like ReiserFS, IBM's JFS, SGI's XFS (my favorite), NTFS...the list is very long. Linux' rich support for other OS / legacy filesystems is another thing to recommend it.

Although Windows NT came with pluggable filesystem support, I don't know of any 3rd party filesystems that were ever developed for Windows NT-Windows 8 that could be used instead of FAT/NTFS. NTFS is OK, but it's a real waste of the VFS layer without any 3rd party filesystems to use.
True, I was actually referring (likely incorrectly) to the hierarchy of the files... / /etc /opt /var /home et. al.

I tend to stick with ext3 for the most part.
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Old November 21st, 2012, 10:57 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Yes you have: Windows dominates in the corporate desktop arena, even after 21 years.
... Windows dominates because windows dominates. That is the only reason beyond that giant government grant that enabled them to put a computer "in every home." It has nothing to do with being superior in any aspect, and everything to do with pork. Frankly, it's considered "easier to use" by most people because they were taught to use windows first. It's just like most people who grew up speaking English can't believe that it's the world's second most difficult language to learn.


-------


I admit I first looked into linux because it was free, money wise. I (thought I did but I ) didn't understand what they meant by "freedom," and wanted a taste of what I thought they were talking about. Then my laptop got this weird problem where my desktop would crash when I closed my last explorer window (not IE). It took a reformat to fix the problem.


With most any popular Linux distribution, I have an option of up to at least about 15 different window managers, none of which will crash at the drop of a hat as windows explorer did.
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 12:41 AM   #21 (permalink)
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I've yet to see a Linux GUI that I would term as "eye candy". But for me it doesn't really matter, I spend most of my time either in the terminal, init 3, or SSH.
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 07:38 AM   #22 (permalink)
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with my aging system (2005 hp pavillion) ubuntu just runs better. even with a 3.06ghz p4 chip and 2gbs of ram xp lags quite a bit.
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 07:54 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
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... Windows dominates because windows dominates. That is the only reason beyond that giant government grant that enabled them to put a computer "in every home." It has nothing to do with being superior in any aspect, and everything to do with pork. Frankly, it's considered "easier to use" by most people because they were taught to use windows first. It's just like most people who grew up speaking English can't believe that it's the world's second most difficult language to learn.
.

I've argued this before but I will again. You are correct that Windows is made easier by the fact that everyone is taught that by default.

However, I am willing to wager that if you took a child (or adult) that had no exposure to computer technology, windows would be easier to teach than Linux.

In windows, want to install a program? Easy, there is one way to do it. Until Linux can do this, there is no way it will be easier to use.

As an administrator of both and having a preference towards Linux, I am not biased in saying this, but Windows is easier to teach. Windows is easier to learn. Windows is more user friendly in a corporate environment.
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 10:52 AM   #24 (permalink)
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I've argued this before but I will again. You are correct that Windows is made easier by the fact that everyone is taught that by default.

However, I am willing to wager that if you took a child (or adult) that had no exposure to computer technology, windows would be easier to teach than Linux.

In windows, want to install a program? Easy, there is one way to do it. Until Linux can do this, there is no way it will be easier to use.

As an administrator of both and having a preference towards Linux, I am not biased in saying this, but Windows is easier to teach. Windows is easier to learn. Windows is more user friendly in a corporate environment.
You're absolutely right. While Linux has made leaps and bounds, its still not as easy to most as Windows. Download, double click the exe. Make a sandwich. Done. The software center in Ubuntu is a great start, but not everything is in there.
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 01:46 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I've yet to see a Linux GUI that I would term as "eye candy". But for me it doesn't really matter, I spend most of my time either in the terminal, init 3, or SSH.
These days, an OS must have a GUI and it must look pretty. At least I think so. Most people will not tolerate having to use the terminal. I am finding it much easier to "apt-get install JustinBieber" than to try to find the installation software on the web, DL and click to install.

Now, I am learning my way around to Lyx and LaTex. Compared to Word or OO, I think I prefer Lyx to generate text and LaTex to "pretty it up." Not sure most people would be happy with anything that requires thought.

Just today, I learned that EMACS has more than 2,000 commands and for what I must do daily, perhaps EMACS or LyX is a better choice. I might say it beats Office or other word processors in my case.
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 01:57 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I really like the elegance of linux. The filesystem is something marvelous. When I'm in a command prompt in Windows, I'm always wondering why they haven't implemented some more of the awesome linux features...
I think I disagree about the Linux file system. It would befuddle many people coming from Windows. In Windows, I know exactly where programs will be installed; I had to Google to discover where programs were installed when I decided to go all in with Linux.

That said, now I know where most things go or are supposed to go in Linux.

I think what will bother many users is how different things are in Linux. Not saying they cannot learn, just saying that until a user decided to try, he or she will stick with Windows and play in their long established comfort zone.
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 02:08 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Apparently, the founder of Ubuntu thinks making an OS look pretty is important.

Would a Prettier Linux Make You Switch?

Pretty is good if it make the user experience better. Not so good it it causes users grief.
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Old November 22nd, 2012, 08:49 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Apparently, the founder of Ubuntu thinks making an OS look pretty is important.

Would a Prettier Linux Make You Switch?

Pretty is good if it make the user experience better. Not so good it it causes users grief.
I think having a good looking OS is pretty key to getting people interested. Chances are you'll have just as many people going to your OS because they read the features and liked it, as there are people who saw a screenshot and thought it looked pretty or nifty.

Plus a lot of these good looking desktop environments work great too. Gnome 3 might be somewhat of a hassle at first, without a dedicated menu bar to easily switch between programs, but as time goes on i now appreciate the way gnome does it, I think it's more efficient and useful, even if it's a tad bit slower.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 05:50 AM   #29 (permalink)
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I do like eye candy. I don't go out my way though. I theme Linux and I have Aero on in 7. I can't stand the grey look. I haven't replaced the Shell since XP though as I didn't find a need.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 09:45 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I think I disagree about the Linux file system. It would befuddle many people coming from Windows. In Windows, I know exactly where programs will be installed; I had to Google to discover where programs were installed when I decided to go all in with Linux.

That said, now I know where most things go or are supposed to go in Linux.

I think what will bother many users is how different things are in Linux. Not saying they cannot learn, just saying that until a user decided to try, he or she will stick with Windows and play in their long established comfort zone.
Oh I agree with that, especially when you are starting out. I remember not having a clue as to what any of those three letter combinations meant at first... and I still have a lot to learn, but I'm at the point where I am enjoying discovering the filesystem and locations... And I love /tmp

Half of my work goes there
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Old November 25th, 2012, 09:53 AM   #31 (permalink)
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In windows, want to install a program? Easy, there is one way to do it. Until Linux can do this, there is no way it will be easier to use.
I don't know, I would say program management and installation is a major advantage of Linux as opposed to Windows. Certainly much easier to install something of the software center and have it update automatically, or paste a few lines into the terminal.
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Old November 25th, 2012, 11:08 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Thing is, every app installs differently. Needs a different command that you're expected to know (or Google). No way is linux easier for the everyday user
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Old November 25th, 2012, 12:06 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Thing is, every app installs differently. Needs a different command that you're expected to know (or Google). No way is linux easier for the everyday user
Well yeah, if I want an app I usually Google for it. If its in the Software Center, I search there for its name and install it. Off a random website? Copy/paste the command.

And every app installs the same if its available for the OS.

I don't see how its harder than Googling, downloading, running an .exe, then going through a big install rigmarole.
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Old November 25th, 2012, 02:58 PM   #34 (permalink)
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If I google and download a .deb package, sure it piss easy to install. I double click it and software centre opens and acts like windows' install shield. Its the same user experience as installing an .exe or a .msi... sure.

However, not everything comes as a .deb does it? If it did, we wouldn't be discussing this as there would be nothing in it.

The fact is you may need to uncompressed things, manually make directories as root, chmod, chown stuff using terminals, run shell scripts, add repositories etc etc. I would go on but you've got my point by now. Hell, vmware made up its own extension .bundle

I'm a technical user and an confident saying although I can pretty much install anything I need, there is no structure or commonality between app installs like there is in windows. Every app installs or installs exactly the same. All the files are in the same places. With linux this simply isn't true.

I am the technical lead for desktop support in my company so I spend a lot of time working with both engineers and administrators alike, across both platforms. Everything is easier on windows. Teaching the use, supporting or fixing issues... all easier on windows.

Do I love Linux? Yes! Would I recommend it to my mum? Pfft no chance.
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Old November 25th, 2012, 03:07 PM   #35 (permalink)
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If I google and download a .deb package, sure it piss easy to install. I double click it and software centre opens and acts like windows' install shield. Its the same user experience as installing an .exe or a .msi... sure.

However, not everything comes as a .deb does it? If it did, we wouldn't be discussing this as there would be nothing in it.
Well, most apps certainly do, whether you use a GUI or CLI to download and install them.

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The fact is you may need to uncompressed things, manually make directories as root, chmod, chown stuff using terminals, run shell scripts, add repositories etc etc. I would go on but you've got my point by now. Hell, vmware made up its own extension .bundle
Adding repositories is usually basically pasting a line of code and giving your password. If you arent an admin you shouldnt be installing potentially malicious software. With regards to changing things properties etc, these arent normal apps are they? I'm not to sure what kind of stuff you mean.
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Old November 25th, 2012, 04:34 PM   #36 (permalink)
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My point is that with windows you don't have to copy a command or two that you don't understand. You click and that's that.

I have no idea what you deam a normal app. To be honest I can't be bothered to argue with you. If you don't agree linux is harder to install an app than windows, fine. Thats your prerogative. You'd be wrong but that's your prerogative all the same. Not worth the effort.

You could do a simple test yourself. Install the latest vmware player on windows. Install the latest vmware player on linux. Many applications are like this. I rest my case
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Old November 25th, 2012, 04:37 PM   #37 (permalink)
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..and don't let me remind you what my avatar is. I am seeing this objectively (which I don't think you are) and professionally (as in its my job). I just can't understand your argument that 6 steps are easier than 1
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Old November 26th, 2012, 12:53 AM   #38 (permalink)
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True, I was actually referring (likely incorrectly) to the hierarchy of the files... / /etc /opt /var /home et. al.

I tend to stick with ext3 for the most part.
Oh, I see. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

In reference to your context I've seen Windows change the names and locations of system file directories, user directories and even normally hidden system directories. I've seen .ini files replaced by a Registry database. These are very big changes!

OTOH Linux and other operating systems are far more consistent about where they keep things. The biggest change I've seen in the directory structure of systems that use the UNIX paradigm is moving the user home directories out of the /usr directory.

It looks to me like the UNIX paradigm is something that only needs to be learned once, while Windows is a constantly convolving product. And I'm not saying that just because I used UNIX before Windows and Linux later on.
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Old November 26th, 2012, 02:46 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Yes you have: Windows dominates in the corporate desktop arena, even after 21 years.
No. I'm sorry but popularity is absolutely not empirical evidence. And the desktop is only a fraction of the whole.

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To clarify: I was talking overall corporate networks (which are largely client-networks), not data-centres. *nix destroys Windows back-end for reliability and competes cost-wise.
And with thin clients and "the cloud" becoming bigger and bigger slices of the whole pie, it's the back office (data center) that's actually running the show.

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(It's a) fact that an average Windows jockey doesn't require as much skill (pay) as a *nix one.
Are you comparing end users to engineers, or Windows engineers to UNIX engineers? If it's the latter, do you have any empirical evidence to support that claim? (If it's the former, it's an apples to oranges comparison.)

That may have been true back when UNIX ran on "big iron" and Windows was starting to make inroads in the market that Novell used to dominate in. I'd be really surprised if it's still that way, with so many Linux experts available today.

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It depends on the network; if your back end is relatively small (or run by someone else, as a lot of networks have gone) and 90% of it is comprised of clients, then client TCO is pretty much all that matters.
That has nothing to do with what you quoted from me.

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I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that; if you mean Windows Server is completely broken, I can't agree.
Windows, just like every operating system, is the platform on which applications are run. It's not an end in itself. Not in a production environment anyway.

If you want examples, one time I was called at home back to work after watching my colleagues work for hours (during working hours) trying to troubleshoot a problem with our one and only Lotus Notes mail server. I tracked the source of the problem to a failed CPU in the SMP machine. In the process I discovered that the Notes process was being started by hand because whoever built the system apparently didn't know why it should have been installed as a Windows Service. Perhaps that person didn't know how to do it. There were several other similar problems with that system.

In another case I was asked by many end users to "fix Citrix" for them. At the time, my locus of responsibility was limited to the Citrix client software and the networking functions that allowed users outside of the corporate LAN to connect to the Citrix farm. The problem was under the locus of responsibility of the networking department, but neither the FTEs, the 3rd party consultants nor the paid (by us) consultant from the company that built the Citrix farm were competent to administer the Citrix farm or fix what was done wrong. So I was asked by top management to intervene.

Later on, when our organization was negotiating to be acquired by a larger company, I was asked to make sure that a PowerPoint presentation that was to be done on our Citrix farm but operated and shown at the other company's corporate headquarters worked flawlessly. After the acquisition I was offered a job in the networking division and asked to oversee the entire Citrix system.

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I don't agree; having administered since WFW 3.11, the only significant change was WinNT; otherwise, it's pretty much the same. The changes are more like patch notes than learning something new.
I mean no offense to you personally, but that statement is precisely what I meant about grossly underestimating the difference between being a user and an engineer.

When you said that you "administered since WFW 3.11", did you mean that you used MOM?

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Having worked directly for CIOs almost 20 years...
Again, you're not speaking to what I wrote that you quoted.

May I make a suggestion? Since we're in The Lounge, could we try to avoid making lengthy, point-by-point posts, and keep it at a more conversational level? IMHO this is getting a little too intense. TIA
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