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Old January 16th, 2013, 12:32 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Laptop vs Tablet

Just thought several of you would be able to offer an insight to what is recommended for me.

I am a student, and in 2 years, I will be off to Uni. I was thinking of getting a Nexus 7 now, both for fun and to help me with my studies - trust me, I'd rather do anything than use the school computers.

But I've also wondered if it's better to get a laptop, or, because they're so expensive now, to wait until I actually need one, and get a suitable one later on. ( I have a pretty decent PC at home, so a portable PC isn't exactly necessary)

I pretty much immediately ruled out the tablet/laptop ultrabook thingys, as 1000+ is waaayyy out of my budget. Maybe a chrome book + a 4G plan?

Thoughts?

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Old January 16th, 2013, 12:42 PM   #2 (permalink)
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the one big disadvantage of tablets is 1) no physical keyboard which can make typing long documents a pain, 2) PC apps won't run on them--which may be required in your school

my college classes required me to install demos of WinNT and Win2K a lot, so i brought along a laptop then for that reason. none of the required software would run on Linux (or Android nowadays) in addition my testing software required Windows too (for A+ certification)
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Old January 16th, 2013, 01:07 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I was thinking that, if I needed to type lots, I could get one of those bluetooth keyboards (15-45)

The only program I'd need to run at 6th Form would be a browser, and Powerpoint. There's a CD for my spanish book that I might need, but I would be comfortable using my desktop PC at home for that
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Old January 16th, 2013, 01:17 PM   #4 (permalink)
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You can get a perfectly good laptop without spending 1000 or so. I got my Ex corporate HP Probook (1366 x 768 screen AMD dual core @2.2GHZ 4Gb RAM Win7 pro (On original disk) wifi/bluetooth etc for 200. and my daughter's new Packard-Bell laptop Dual core Pentium 8Gb ddr3 etc for 300. Google is your friend
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Old January 16th, 2013, 01:26 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I had been using my sister's old laptop ( Intel Core 2 duo 2GHz, nvidia 9800, 140gb hdd) but I found it slow and hot. i also think that something with at least an i5 would be good and fast enough.

I think that I am used to the speed of my new desktop now.
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Old January 16th, 2013, 01:32 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Ive tried doing document/typing work on my nexus 7 with a bluetooth keyboard. It was a real pain. I honestly wouldnt use a tablet for anything other than quick internet browsing and video playback. I dont even use my Nexus 7 any more. If i want to watch a youtube video or something in bed, i just use my phone. Any time i need to do typing, such as a post on this forum, i use my laptop. Whether its on my lap or on the table, my laptop provides a higher level of convenience in every way except mobility compared to a tablet. If your device is going to be sitting on the desk all the time, just get a laptop.

I would suggest using a laptop running Windows 8 and an SSD card for storage. Very fast boot times, and you can configure Windows 8 to be exactly like Windows 7.

If it wernt for the price, i would get rid of my current laptop and buy a Windows 8 convertible tablet with laptop dock. But i sure wont buy a stand-alone tablet.
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Old January 16th, 2013, 05:22 PM   #7 (permalink)
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the closest i got is a Jelly Bean-running Kindle Fire. it's not a Nexus 7 by any means and types well, but it's usually only used for mobility, where a laptop (and its horrid battery life of two hours tops) is too bulky. my Android phone is great as an MP3 player/downloader at work, with the ease of being voice controlled to check my Facebook on break. or my email. but so far, despite how far they have come, a tablet is no replacement for a full-blown PC just yet. it's getting there but not yet. currently my laptop use is at home or at places near an outlet. if i am expected to be away from an outlet that is where i pull my tablet from behind my person like a cartoon character and catch up on some Netflix, Email, forum typing/lurking, catching Linux news, and so on.

around here at least laptops and tablets are on par with each other for price. good Android tabs can cost upwards of $499 and higher (making them as pricey as Apple products but they're the only 'good' ones you will get) and laptops are either $399 to $1999, depending on whether you are a normal user or whether you need a powerful desktop replacement/gaming PC. my newest is a previously Windows 8-equipped Toshiba Satellite which now runs Ubuntu 12.10/KDE for $399. it's decent enough to play Star Trek Online which is pretty much most of the use, other than instances where i need a keyboard.
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Old January 17th, 2013, 12:06 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Yeah, thanks.

I definitely think the laptop is the way to go still. Hopefully in the near future, quad core and good graphics performance (although will strictly be used for working :-P) will be more affordable.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 08:13 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Oh yeah, I could really use a quad-core i7 and/or a GPU that supports the CUDA acceleration that my transcoding software uses. Since I'm also the boss who would have to pay for it too, I can get away with using it to keep up with my favorite TV shows when I'm on the road. OTOH I know as a fact that my boss doesn't have the budget to pay the premium prices that those things fetch, even if the need is justified.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 12:13 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I mean, compared to the older computers in my school ( Core 2 Duo,1GB RAM) the newer computers that are being brought in seem so much faster comparatively (i3, 4GB ram)

But once I get my SSD/SSD's in my PC, I think i5's in a laptop and maybe a small SSD would be ideal.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 04:28 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by nickdalzell View Post
the one big disadvantage of tablets is 1) no physical keyboard which can make typing long documents a pain, 2) PC apps won't run on them--which may be required in your school

my college classes required me to install demos of WinNT and Win2K a lot, so i brought along a laptop then for that reason. none of the required software would run on Linux (or Android nowadays) in addition my testing software required Windows too (for A+ certification)
I say try the keyboard. I use an iPad and I find the soft keyboard to be far better than either external keyboard or my laptop keyboard. I was amazed, too.
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Old January 21st, 2013, 10:17 AM   #12 (permalink)
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the iPad has that one over the Android. better touch response and a better autocorrect system. however the fingerprint smudges make the screen completely ugly to look at if you type often enough. i hate having the OCD to constantly clean my iPad's screen when under heavy use.
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Old January 21st, 2013, 10:21 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: Laptop vs Tablet

There are android tablets with keyboard docks, such as the ASUS Transformer series. Something to keep in mind, but these are generally on the more expensive side depending on which model you get. Something to keep in mind is that ASUS is going to release the Transformer AIO somewhat soon and that will come with the ability to dual-boot Android and Windows 8. No word on price yet though
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Old January 21st, 2013, 11:05 AM   #14 (permalink)
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My Student Edition came with the keyboard dock and it's pretty nice to use if I need to type alot. I guess if it's for school purposes, maybe a nice size laptop would be the way to go.

I gave my 8.9" netbook to one of the grandkids for Christmas because I wasn't using it much. The screen was just too small for these old eyes, but using a tablet makes it much better to view. I can move the tablet closer to my eyes and handle it much easier then a laptop.
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Old January 21st, 2013, 12:20 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by nickdalzell View Post
the iPad has that one over the Android. better touch response and a better autocorrect system. however the fingerprint smudges make the screen completely ugly to look at if you type often enough. i hate having the OCD to constantly clean my iPad's screen when under heavy use.
I have written and edited large documents with my iPad and Pages. In my opinion, Pages is the best WP of its kind and like I said earlier, the soft keyboard is a joy to use. Not at all hard to get use to and I like it so much, I ditched the external keyboards.

This idea that the screen must be better or you need an external keyboard is accurate for some users but not for all users. I can earn my income with just my iPad.

As with all things technical, what will work for you ultimately depends on what you need to do. For most users, I say either will work. If you Tweet, Face Book, listen to music and fiddle with photographs, either will work. Most users are likely typical and a tablet is all they need.

That said, if you decide to heavily edit images, perhaps a laptop is the better choice.

Again, it all boils down to what you need to do. Hopefully, I will dump my laptop and use just my iPad.

I was considering going to work for a local group of folks that decided to see if they can start and operate a company using ONLY tablets. No DT/Laptop, just a tablet. Their contention is a good quality tablet is all you really need.
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Old January 21st, 2013, 12:55 PM   #16 (permalink)
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most of the time my iPad is my laptop. i would like to find a good Android tablet that will replace it and offer similar performance but so far 1) any comparable Android tablets will break the bank worse than an iPad, 2) battery life still sucks in Android even on a tablet, 3) there is NO Android version of the retina screen to avoid migraines from LCD use, and 4) most high-dpi screens are AMOLED, and i have one of those types of screens on my PS Vita, and it's a migraine inducer, no thanks.
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Old January 21st, 2013, 02:39 PM   #17 (permalink)
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This idea that the screen must be better or you need an external keyboard is accurate for some users but not for all users. I can earn my income with just my iPad.

I was considering going to work for a local group of folks that decided to see if they can start and operate a company using ONLY tablets. No DT/Laptop, just a tablet. Their contention is a good quality tablet is all you really need.
(emphasis mine)

It's one thing to embrace new technologies, but quite another to make it mandatory to prove some point.

Personally I can't work for very long unless I have a good chair to sit in that keeps my back nice and straight. I suppose I could adapt to using nothing but a tablet, but I wouldn't actually like it. Since I'm not a touch typist, I once thought that being able to keep my eyes where I type would be a benefit. But the lack of feeling in on-screen "keyboards" and their unforgiving nature when it comes to fumble-fingering would make using one to write a long document a nightmare for me!
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Old January 21st, 2013, 02:41 PM   #18 (permalink)
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There are android tablets with keyboard docks, such as the ASUS Transformer series. Something to keep in mind, but these are generally on the more expensive side depending on which model you get. Something to keep in mind is that ASUS is going to release the Transformer AIO somewhat soon and that will come with the ability to dual-boot Android and Windows 8. No word on price yet though
The keyboard for the Transformer series is an option, so tablet purists don't have to get it.
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Old January 21st, 2013, 02:44 PM   #19 (permalink)
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the iPad has that one over the Android. better touch response and a better autocorrect system. however the fingerprint smudges make the screen completely ugly to look at if you type often enough. i hate having the OCD to constantly clean my iPad's screen when under heavy use.

Sorry. But my experience of the iOS keyboard wasn't pleasant. SwiftKey all the way.

Looks like I'm not gonna get a tablet now. :-( maybe a laptop later...
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Old January 21st, 2013, 04:19 PM   #20 (permalink)
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the Android keyboard seems to never keep up with my typing rate. and the autocorrect is not as well implemented. (in the iPad if i hit the space even after mispelling a word, it tends to replace it with the correctly spelled word, in Android if i naturally hit space and not hit the suggestion, it just writes the misspelling and i have to go back and change it manually) and in some cases there is nothing inside the autocorrect dictionary in Android too, as i have found out at random times.

i'm a pretty good expert on touch typing on the iPad, mostly due to the large footprint i can almost naturally use it as if a netbook keyboard (only the smudging effect is horrid)

Many Android tablets are wider than they are tall, which gets a bit harder to type on what appears to be squashed keys. swiftkey in my experience was horrible--a lot like the old Apple Newton's badly-implemented handwriting recognition, not the same but just as equally bad with results. i would not be surprised if 'eat up martha' came up either. swiftkey is not natural...sliding across a keyboard is worse than trying to have Android keep up with an 80+ WPM typing rate
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Old January 21st, 2013, 05:03 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I don't know if you're referring to Swype... Maybe SwiftKey flow..

But it's strange that we've had completely opposite experiences :-P
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Old January 21st, 2013, 05:56 PM   #22 (permalink)
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perhaps i am just old fashioned, i like to type, not flick, swipe, tap or whatnot. i can type rather fast on my iPad just not on any Android device due to keyboard lag. Jelly Bean is nicer but it still has slight keyboard lag.
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Old January 21st, 2013, 06:23 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I've only seen keyboard lag on budget Android devices, ones with weak or slow CPUs. Especially the cheap Chinese ones I'm so familiar with, some of which are truly awful The cheapo Ampe thing I've got, that can lag on everything, but on the other hand my Lenovo phone doesn't keyboard lag, that's instant.

I can never type at my full speed on any non-tactile glass virtual keyboard. Simply due to the fact I've got to keep on looking at it, and not concertrating on what I'm typing. I learned Pitman typing on a manual typewriter, using all fingers and without looking at the keyboard, and it's stuck with me. When you first start the course they would cover the keyboard, so you couldn't see your fingers and keyboard.

It's all about feel and touch for me, which is just something you can't do with a glass virtual keyboard. That's why physical keyboards have raised pips on the F and J home keys.
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Old January 21st, 2013, 07:05 PM   #24 (permalink)
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problem is at least around here a 'decent' Android tab is as much if not more the cost of an iDevice.
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Old January 21st, 2013, 10:51 PM   #25 (permalink)
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portability, battery life are indeed two of a tab's strongest points. it's the productivity and typing that keep laptops on the top, however. tablets are still catching up to netbooks, but they are almost the same
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Old January 21st, 2013, 11:18 PM   #26 (permalink)
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problem is at least around here a 'decent' Android tab is as much if not more the cost of an iDevice.
Yup, you get what you pay for. iPad 16GB in the US is $499, iPad Mini is $329. No doubt you've seen our forum sticky about cheap tablets.

BTW I thought Jellybean wasn't supposed to be laggy. Guangdong Pisen Electronics Co., Ltd. managed it though. Saw one of their new Jellybean tablets yesterday in a local store, it was terrible. We're starting to see some budget Jellybean devices now, this will be interesting.
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Old January 21st, 2013, 11:23 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Jelly Bean on a Kindle Fire (my best spec tab at this time) seems to be lag-free on transition and other eye candy (using Nova Launcher Prime with Widgetlocker) but the keyboard has a noticeable delay. probably not for most folks but remember i am able to tap out 100 wpm on an iPad. the difference is better than with ICS but i can only manage a lousy 45 wpm at best on it.

Memory tweaks have landed me a perfectly smooth ZTE Merit, despite still using a themed Go Launcher EX Security on it. but it's only used occasionally and that is the pattern that Android GB on it is using. using it too often will still crash it
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Old January 21st, 2013, 11:24 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I'm not sure how things are working in Europe, but in the US a decent laptop will sell for around the same as a high end tablet, and for around 3-4 hundred US dollars you could get a 2.4ghz i5 processor laptop (4gb ram). For less you'd be looking at an i3. However it'd still be faster and more functional than a tablet.

For that money you might as well go with a full sized laptop
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Old January 21st, 2013, 11:27 PM   #29 (permalink)
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this Toshiba laptop only set me back $399 which is still $100 less than the price of an iPad (or Nexus 10)

i did some price checking around town and sadly you will be out $699 (wow!) for a high-end Android phone, even with the same screen size as a ZTE Blade. the cheapest was $79 but only if you like Froyo--can't believe they're still selling them! forget that! my Merit is still a rugged, well built abuse-taking little mite, it seems to take abuse with the best of them with narry a scratch. it was only $59 when i got it new, i plan to hold onto it.
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Old January 22nd, 2013, 08:30 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Here.... Prices are extremely high.

Any 'decent' i5 laptop is more than £400.
The new ultra books are in excess of £1000.
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Old January 22nd, 2013, 10:31 AM   #31 (permalink)
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i still wonder what makes Asus so high priced--cheapest is $799 here. i thought Asus was a budget make, it's no Bose or Sony that is for sure! but you can get a Sony Vaio for cheaper than an Asus
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Old January 22nd, 2013, 06:19 PM   #32 (permalink)
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When I used to build all of my computers from parts, ASUS motherboards had the reputation of being the best quality of any brand. If I wanted a bulletproof computer for myself or a well-heeled client, I'd buy ASUS. It's still pretty much that way, although Supermicro makes better server motherboards IMO. I would expect an ASUS brand computer to be every bit as good as an ASUS motherboard. So far I haven't been disappointed.
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Old January 22nd, 2013, 06:49 PM   #33 (permalink)
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AFAIK Asus is a good quality brand. Asus is from Taiwan, not Mainland China.

Their PC parts and laptops always seemed to be top notch. I don't think their tablets are excessively expensive. Transformer Prime is in about same price range as the Apple iPad, and that's in the US and UK. Asus 7inch tablets can be had for about $300 USD, which is similar price to the iPad Mini. That's from places like Best Buy, or PC World in the UK. I'm sure their tablets are much better quality than the $50-$60 things you might buy on Ebay or a market stall.

Bose is overpriced everywhere. And Sony is not the premium Japanese brand, producing top quality products that it once was, although they pretend to be. Think we had a recent thread about the decline of Sony.
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Old January 22nd, 2013, 08:45 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Bose is overpriced everywhere. And Sony is not the premium Japanese brand, producing top quality products that it once was, although they pretend to be. Think we had a recent thread about the decline of Sony.
Bose is a rip-off for sure. I've read the work of Dr. Amar Bose, and although he had good ideas in theory, his original loudspeakers (like the 901) with "one size fits all" 3" drivers and direct/reflecting radiation patterns weren't very good when compared to more conventional speakers of the same price.

Today the Bose brand is for suckers who have more money than common sense. Kind of like how Bang & Olufsen has always been. They're for people who want "the best" but wouldn't know true excellence if it bit them on the backside.

Sony does come up with the occasional gem, but overall it's a shadow of its former self.
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 10:10 AM   #35 (permalink)
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I feel bad that I have Bose On Ears. And think they're really good...
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Old January 23rd, 2013, 10:31 PM   #36 (permalink)
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I feel bad that I have Bose On Ears. And think they're really good...
Don't feel bad over something that you can't change. Enjoy them, and when it's time to replace them, remember that you can get a better deal by not buying the heavily hyped brands. Advertising costs money that could have been spent on R&D and materials. The trick is to find the companies that spend the most on making a good product, and the least on hyping it.
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Old January 24th, 2013, 09:23 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Well... Tbh, they're 2 years old.

At that time, they were pretty good. I understand that nowadays there are products that are much better.
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Old January 24th, 2013, 11:06 AM   #38 (permalink)
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the only Bose products i own were given away. one of my trailer home's speakers blew so i stuffed one of those 3" Bose ones in there and fixed it.

What is your opinion of the other brand like Bose? you know, Beats Audio? they are almost as overpriced as Bose, and i heard they're no different than average headphones? either way i'll trust my $25 noise-cancelling Sonys than blow $100 on some Dr. Dre brand any day.
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Old January 24th, 2013, 02:53 PM   #39 (permalink)
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I have been told, and I think that Beats are crap really. I tried them out. Only the really big 300 sounded decent, but that was compared to cheaper 50 ones.

Reviews of the Bose On ears 2 years ago were good, and I also read that, for the money, they aren't THAT good, but they re good overall. Pretty much the point you're tying to say.
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Old January 24th, 2013, 04:41 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Right. I'm not saying that they're crap; I'm just saying that there are better products and better bargains.
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Old January 24th, 2013, 05:31 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Yeah. I agree.
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Old January 24th, 2013, 06:59 PM   #42 (permalink)
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maybe for some they think if it's expensive it must be good? sorta how some folks see merit in Rolex watches despite their obscene price, even though even a two-dollar Wal-Mart watch will still tell time just as well. it's the 'hey i bought a rich brand i'm special' mentality. even with my iPad, people seem impressed. but i did not buy it to show off. i bought it as i knew it was a quality product. Plus, i can do a lot more with a $499 iPad than i could with a $499 speaker

there was a time when you could find Bose Wave Radios in Goodwill for $15 each. the CD was not working but the radio did. from what i recall, it did not really sound that impressive.
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Old January 24th, 2013, 08:09 PM   #43 (permalink)
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What is your opinion of the other brand like Bose? you know, Beats Audio?
If you're asking me, I have nothing more to say. I got into too much trouble the first time I spoke my mind about Beats and other celebrity-endorsed products.

Fire bad!
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Old January 24th, 2013, 08:46 PM   #44 (permalink)
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maybe for some they think if it's expensive it must be good? sorta how some folks see merit in Rolex watches despite their obscene price, even though even a two-dollar Wal-Mart watch will still tell time just as well. it's the 'hey i bought a rich brand i'm special' mentality.
You know, I was going to mention the whole Rolex myth, but never got around to it.

A lot of people think that Rolex makes "the finest watches on earth." The reality is that Rolex is one of many "mid-range" watchmakers. They can't hold a candle to truly high-end watchmakers like Patek Philippe and few others. The Rolex movement is grossly overpriced compared to other brands' movements that are equally good. The only reason they get away with it is because of the myth.

Aside from snob appeal, the best use for a solid gold Rolex watch is to have something that can be pawned for the value of the gold. Back in Chicago I knew some traders who pawned their gold and diamond encrusted Rolex watches every time they had to meet a margin call.

I was a teenager when I was introduced to the make-believe world of high-end consumer audio products. Because I couldn't afford such costly stuff, I spent many hours "auditioning" at the local hi-fi boutique, but I did my buying of much more reasonably priced brands at the local big box audio retailer. As I gained experience, I realized that the power of suggestion was quite strong, and that "golden eared" people who claimed to be able to hear nuances that regular people couldn't were actually paying great sums of money to have their egos stroked.

By the time I became an engineer it was plainly obvious to me that no amount of voodoo could reveal more content in the music than the professional gear that was used to make the recordings. (The high-end crowd conveniently forgets that part.) These days some very good pro audio gear is dirt cheap, thanks to ISO 9000 manufacturing standards and the digital revolution. Nevertheless the part of the industry that peddles hype above all else is doing better than ever! It just proves the P.T. Barnum adage that "a sucker is born every minute."

Please note that I'm not saying that anyone here is a sucker. On the contrary, I believe that hard-learned lessons are often the best way to learn. But for those who want to avoid buyer's remorse, my hard-learned advice is free.
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Old January 25th, 2013, 09:54 AM   #45 (permalink)
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These days some very good pro audio gear is dirt cheap, thanks to ISO 9000 manufacturing standards and the digital revolution.

I have worked for several ISO certified manufacturers and they always put production numbers ahead of whatever standard they proudly tell us they follow. So I assume the certs proffered by manufacturers likely mean less than they should mean.

I have worked for manufacturers that required solder techs be IPC certified, yet they do not follow the current standards.

I was on the committee that went through our ISO certification process. We never followed the process if it got in way on the numbers. In fact, one Representative spent his time skiing rather than investigating our standards and practiced.

As for Rolex, I might agree to a point. Their Repeaters were very good watches. I do agree with you. Some people pay for the bling because of the name. Rolex watches are costly and there are "better" watches. You mentioned one. I could mention a dozen others that are "better."

Depending on what you consider better.

I just want accurate time and a cheap $1,200.00 watch will do that for me. As does my old Westclox pocket watch that was five bucks many moons ago.

As for hearing the nuances, I am one of those people. I can tell if a trumpeter or Coronet player is playing the passages correctly and how off key he or she might be. I can also tell quite a bit about a banjo and banjo player from listening.

Finally, we will all purchase expensive goods and services if we could afford to do do. And generally speaking, if it is costly, it is likely worth toe cost. Especially if it is an old line brand.

there is one particular fountain pen I would purchase if I had the money and it is $35,000.00. ans yes, a Bic Click will get the job done, too,
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Old January 25th, 2013, 10:16 AM   #46 (permalink)
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maybe for some they think if it's expensive it must be good? sorta how some folks see merit in Rolex watches despite their obscene price, even though even a two-dollar Wal-Mart watch will still tell time just as well.
But a cheap ass watch from Wally Marty is clearly not as good. For so many reasons. I always look to the craftsmanship and the device complexity. A Rolex--despite its high price--is well made and they have always been well made.

Are there more costly watches? Hell sure. I favor pocket watches with lots of complications. I find compled watches much more interesting if they keep good time. I have owned old pocket watches that kept perfect time. Complex mechanical watches are simply better and sadly, they are often very costly.

I took a look and found this: "The Patek Philippe Calibre 89 has 33 complications, using a total of 1728 parts. It was released in 1989 to commemorate the 150th anniversary of the company.The complications include the date of Easter, sidereal time, and a 2800-star celestial chart."

There are many reasons why a $250,000.00 watch is "better" than one from Wally Marty and there are many reasons a twenty buck watch is perfect for many people. All they need is the correct time and they prefer to wear a watch.

But for some of us, we appreciate the tecnhnology and craftsmanship. We see the high cost in the parts fab and assembly. We appreciate that some watches made in 1800 and earlier are as accurate or more so than many modern watches.

And in the world of horology, a watch selling for a quarter of a million dollars is dirt cheap. Really depends upon your cash flow. Most people would not know that a pocket watch was worth ten million bucks if I showed it to them. All they would know is people must be crazy to spend ten million on a watch.
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Old January 25th, 2013, 12:00 PM   #47 (permalink)
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I like how we've diverged completely from the title of this thread :P
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Old January 25th, 2013, 02:58 PM   #48 (permalink)
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It looks like the discussions on several different threads have "bled over" into the unrelated ones. To quote Rick Perry: "oops".
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