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Old September 24th, 2013, 05:15 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Looking for advice - dualbooting ;)

So, I was gifted a brand new shiny Gateway computer, with Windows 8 (blech!). I am attempting a nice Ubuntu dual boot tonight, but all of the reading I'm doing is telling me that the UEFI Firmware setup and Windows Safe Boot are going to cause me headaches when it comes to being successful.

Anyone have any advice? Maybe someone else already has this setup and knows some tricks to get it working correctly?

Any help is appreciated

I've been hearing that Windows 8 and Ubuntu don't play nice together

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Old September 24th, 2013, 06:03 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Disable Secure Boot and you should hopefully not have major issues
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Old September 24th, 2013, 06:07 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by SwoRNLeaDejZ View Post
So, I was gifted a brand new shiny Gateway computer, with Windows 8 (blech!). I am attempting a nice Ubuntu dual boot tonight
Are you really set on keeping window$? If not, wipe the whole drive--like I always do!--and install Kubuntu. Oops, you said Ubuntu. Well...Kubuntu is nicer.

Anyway...

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but all of the reading I'm doing is telling me that the UEFI Firmware setup and Windows Safe Boot are going to cause me headaches when it comes to being successful.

Anyone have any advice? Maybe someone else already has this setup and knows some tricks to get it working correctly?

Any help is appreciated

I've been hearing that Windows 8 and Ubuntu don't play nice together
It's just micro$oft's most recent attempt at putting up obstacles to stem the tide of people dumping window$ for Linux. I have yet to deal with a UEFI setup myself, so I can't really help you, but I know other members here have taken the plunge, so hold on...someone will chime in!
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Old September 24th, 2013, 06:44 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Well, I'm using the computer for work, so sadly it'll have to have windows on it for the time being, because the proprietary software we use is reliant on it (albeit, I'll only be using maybe 30gb of the 1tb hard drive for Windows.. F u Microsoft ).

All the stuff I'm reading is saying that the installation will finish without error, and may even boot into Ubuntu once, but once you boot into windows, safe Boot will do it's thing and booting into Ubuntu won't even be an option.

Just want to do it right the first time instead of facing obstacles tomorrow and in the future.

Thanks for the reply
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Old September 24th, 2013, 07:51 PM   #5 (permalink)
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If you really do not like Windows 8, then why dual boot? Why not just delete the OS completely and install Linux?
If there is something you need on Windows, then why not just use it?
I also have a Gateway computer (Not Windows 8 though) and there was a time where I was Anti Microsoft. So, what I did was install Linux on this computer, and dual boot. For the time being, I liked it, but sometimes I had to get into Windows. So I would need to shut down, and start it up, do what I needed to do, and go back to my preferred OS, Ubuntu.
After a while, it got annoying, so I just stopped, and I just use Windows.
Do you really want to do that?

If you do, then go for it.
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Old September 24th, 2013, 08:06 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Why not start off running Ubuntu in a virtual box inside W8 and see how that works until you decide how to dual boot? I haven't dealt with UEFI Firmware at all.

https://www.virtualbox.org/
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Old September 24th, 2013, 08:11 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by sfbloodbrother View Post
If you really do not like Windows 8, then why dual boot? Why not just delete the OS completely and install Linux?
If there is something you need on Windows, then why not just use it?
I also have a Gateway computer (Not Windows 8 though) and there was a time where I was Anti Microsoft. So, what I did was install Linux on this computer, and dual boot. For the time being, I liked it, but sometimes I had to get into Windows. So I would need to shut down, and start it up, do what I needed to do, and go back to my preferred OS, Ubuntu.
After a while, it got annoying, so I just stopped, and I just use Windows.
Do you really want to do that?

If you do, then go for it.
I'm a enthusiast. I want the option. I prefer Ubuntu, but I NEED windows to run work related software (which I'm not able to run through a virtual box inside of Ubuntu, unfortunately). I will likely ONLY use windows for work. I'm not really looking for advice on whether or not to do it (I'm doing it, I can't even fathom using Windows 8 all the time) I just need some input from some people that dual boot the two already, because windows 8 doesn't play nice with Ubuntu (Safe Boot and the UEFI bios setup cause all kinds of problems).
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Old September 25th, 2013, 02:49 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Alright, time to pass out directions.

I've been running a UEFI Win8/Ubuntu dual-boot for about 6 months now. It's not a problem to do as long as you understand UEFI's quirks.

To start with, you'll need to partition your hard drive. This can be done through Disk Management in Windows8. You'll need to SHRINK your C: drive by the approximate amount of space you wish to let Ubuntu have, and you'll need to let it stay as "unallocated space". Do not format the space after shrinking it! If you need help to do this right, let us know. Do not try to do it with out having us walk you through it if you aren't already familiar with drive partitioning. You could lose your data if something goes wrong.

Now, head into the BIOS. Somewhere (probably under boot devices or boot options) they'll be a setting for Secure Boot and possibly Legacy Mode or Compatibility Mode. You want to DISABLE BOTH. This will both turn off Secure Boot AND filter out any non-UEFI boot devices available.

Next, head to Ubuntu.com and download the 64-bit, UEFI-aware version of Ubuntu 13.04, burn it to CD (or use LiLi USB Creator to put it on a USB device), and reboot your machine.

Hit F9 (or whatever Key Gateway Machine's use to select boot device, on HPs it's been F9), and select your boot device you're gonna install from. It must say UEFI somewhere in the device entry. There's a big difference in launching from "Internal CD/DVD ROM Drive" and "Internal CD/DVD ROM Drive (UEFI)!

Once you've launched the Installer in UEFI mode, follow the directions and select "Install Ubuntu alongside Windows 8". Let the installer do its thing.

Now, here's where everyone's problems with Win8 and UEFI and alternate installs come from. It'll ask you to reboot. Do so. If you don't hit any keys as the system starts up, it'll go directly into Win8, with no sign of GRUB anywhere. This is because the UEFI system is set to OS Boot Manager as its default boot device, and THAT has tunnel vision only for Windows installs.

How to we stop this? Simple, really. In the current setup, every time you want to go into Ubuntu, hit the F9 key (or whatever you used to get that menu where you selected to boot off the install disc) during bootup, and the list of boot devices shows up. In this list is now an entry to Ubuntu. Select it, and you'll be sent off to grub and so forth.

A little annoying, yes, but stable, and works as advertised.
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Old September 25th, 2013, 04:32 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Thank you for that very informative post, Joelgp83.

Even though I'll never dual-boot, this will be a handy resource to direct others to. Maybe we'll copy it to the Linux thread so it won't get lost as this thread ages.
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Old September 25th, 2013, 05:25 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Feel free, Moody.

Though maybe making it itself a sticky would be more appropriate?
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Old September 25th, 2013, 05:36 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Joelgp83 View Post
Feel free, Moody.
Done!

Quote:
Though maybe making it itself a sticky would be more appropriate?
For now, let's leave it in the Linux thread. I don't know how much demand there will be for dual-booting win8/Linux with the UEFI issue, so I'm not sure it justifies a sticky. But we'll see!

I know one thing for sure--I'm going to bookmark its permalink so I can easily refer people to it when they ask for help.
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Old September 25th, 2013, 05:57 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Using his method now to get it going

First attempt, Ubuntu didn't recognize Windows as being installed. Tweaking some things and trying again
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Old September 25th, 2013, 07:04 PM   #13 (permalink)
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So after trying everything I could think and still not being able to get Ubuntu to recognize the already installed Windows 8, I made a new 250gb partition on my hard drive and started the install again, this time choosing Something Else from the menu.

I chose the free space from the list of partitions for the Ubuntu installation minus 3 gb I designated as a swap partition.. It's about 80% done installing now, so we'll see how it goes.. I'm sure once it is done it will boot directly into windows with no sign of Ubuntu and I'll have to use something like EasyBCD to get into Ubuntu... We'll see..
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Old September 25th, 2013, 07:37 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Everything installed prefectly, booted straight to Windows with no option for ubuntu. Added a boot entry with EasyBCD and it gave me a Windows failed to load error when I tried to boot... About to pull my hair out.. Things should be easy..
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Old September 25th, 2013, 08:18 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Ok, calm down. EasyBCD, while a pretty cool program, won't work. Win8's UEFI bootloader code resides on an EFI partition (/dev/sda2 on most new laptops from HP, sometimes sda1 on others that don't have goofy recovery partitions as the first and last partition), as does the EFI stub that boots GRUB. You may have confused or corrupted your current startup files since EasyBCD may not know how to handle that.

This is why you MUST hit whatever key you use to go to "Select Boot Device", and boot select the Ubuntu entry there. If its not there, the installer failed to run in UEFI mode. This would make sense, as the installer failed to detect win8 the first time around (it did not find the standard bios "Bootmgr" bootloader that old-school systems use).

Alternately, secure boot may have been switched back on, or failed to turn off. How comfortable are you with changing BIOS settings?
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Old September 25th, 2013, 09:40 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joelgp83 View Post
Ok, calm down. EasyBCD, while a pretty cool program, won't work. Win8's UEFI bootloader code resides on an EFI partition (/dev/sda2 on most new laptops from HP, sometimes sda1 on others that don't have goofy recovery partitions as the first and last partition), as does the EFI stub that boots GRUB. You may have confused or corrupted your current startup files since EasyBCD may not know how to handle that.

This is why you MUST hit whatever key you use to go to "Select Boot Device", and boot select the Ubuntu entry there. If its not there, the installer failed to run in UEFI mode. This would make sense, as the installer failed to detect win8 the first time around (it did not find the standard bios "Bootmgr" bootloader that old-school systems use).

Alternately, secure boot may have been switched back on, or failed to turn off. How comfortable are you with changing BIOS settings?
Very comfortable. I just went into windows power shell and checked if secure Boot was enabled, and it returned a False.

I tried to use boot repair through the LiveCD and it returned an error that there was a buggy kernel and that I should backup the Windows EFI files and delete them, but I read that it would make Windows incapable of booting so i chose no.

I made a backup of my boot settings before I changed anything with EasyBCD, so I can restore the Defaults and even format the partition that I put ubuntu on and try to reinstall but every time I booted into the LiveCD it failed to detect windows at all.
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Old September 25th, 2013, 09:49 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Very comfortable. I just went into windows power shell and checked if secure Boot was enabled, and it returned a False.

I tried to use boot repair through the LiveCD and it returned an error that there was a buggy kernel and that I should backup the Windows EFI files and delete them, but I read that it would make Windows incapable of booting so i chose no.

I made a backup of my boot settings before I changed anything with EasyBCD, so I can restore the Defaults and even format the partition that I put ubuntu on and try to reinstall but every time I booted into the LiveCD it failed to detect windows at all.
Is there an option called fast boot (or something like that)? If so, have you tried disabling it?
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Old September 25th, 2013, 10:02 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Is there an option called fast boot (or something like that)? If so, have you tried disabling it?
No option in bios for fast boot. Disabled fast boot through the windows power menu in control panel by removing the options for hibernation.. I saw something about LiveUSB working better than LiveCD, not sure if that is horse crap or not, but I have a thumb drive I can use to try and reinstall.
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Old September 26th, 2013, 01:59 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Very comfortable. I just went into windows power shell and checked if secure Boot was enabled, and it returned a False.

I tried to use boot repair through the LiveCD and it returned an error that there was a buggy kernel and that I should backup the Windows EFI files and delete them, but I read that it would make Windows incapable of booting so i chose no.

I made a backup of my boot settings before I changed anything with EasyBCD, so I can restore the Defaults and even format the partition that I put ubuntu on and try to reinstall but every time I booted into the LiveCD it failed to detect windows at all.
Sounds like you're experienced enough to know to look before leaping. Good, it saved your butt in this case.

Go ahead and restore defaults in EasyBCD, for the time being you should not try to add ubuntu using it, as grub does NOT inhabit the first few sectors of the Ubuntu partition (EasyBCD expects to find each OS's bootloader code in the first few sectors of each OS system partition, this is why it is ill-equipped to handle UEFI-mode setups). I also recommend killing the ubuntu partitions (through disk management if possible) and starting over.

Double check to ensure you've got a 64-bit ubuntu 13.04 install ISO. The official one is named "ubuntu-13.04-desktop-amd64.iso".

Finally, I should have mentioned that I usually do this process with a usb installer. Works for me every time.
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Old September 26th, 2013, 01:44 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Sounds like you're experienced enough to know to look before leaping. Good, it saved your butt in this case.

Go ahead and restore defaults in EasyBCD, for the time being you should not try to add ubuntu using it, as grub does NOT inhabit the first few sectors of the Ubuntu partition (EasyBCD expects to find each OS's bootloader code in the first few sectors of each OS system partition, this is why it is ill-equipped to handle UEFI-mode setups). I also recommend killing the ubuntu partitions (through disk management if possible) and starting over.

Double check to ensure you've got a 64-bit ubuntu 13.04 install ISO. The official one is named "ubuntu-13.04-desktop-amd64.iso".

Finally, I should have mentioned that I usually do this process with a usb installer. Works for me every time.
Thanks for all the help dude, much appreciated. I have verified that I am definitely using the correct ISO. I tried to search for reasons why Ubuntu may not detect my Windows 8 install, and while tons of people are experiencing this problem, no one seems to know what causes it, or how to fix it. I would imagine if I saw the "Install Ubuntu alongside Windows" option, it would install and boot without issue.

I am going to format the Ubuntu partitions, make a LiveUSB, and give it a shot that way. I thought maybe I had too many primary partitions on my HDD (because I have 5, [recovery, C:/, recovery, Ubuntu, swap]) and that is why it wouldn't boot, but then I found out that my HDD is GPT Partitioned disc, and that I can have up to 128 primary partitions, without issue, so that definitely isn't the problem.

I also read that Ubuntu 13.04 can handle and manage Secure Boot, so if I try to re-enable Secure Boot, and start over on fresh Partitions, it may detect Windows, and work without issue.

Not sure if I will have time tonight, but I am going to give it a shot as soon as I have time.
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Old September 26th, 2013, 01:48 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Thanks for the update, SwoRNLeaDejZ. Please keep us posted on how it goes.
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Old September 26th, 2013, 01:52 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Joelgp83, after SwoRNLeaDejZ gets his situation resolved, if there are any other changes you want to make to your instruction post, please do--and then I'll replace the copy in the Linux thread with the updated version. If there won't be any additional changes, then I'll replace it with the version in this thread as it stands now.
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Old September 26th, 2013, 04:12 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Thanks for all the help dude, much appreciated. I have verified that I am definitely using the correct ISO. I tried to search for reasons why Ubuntu may not detect my Windows 8 install, and while tons of people are experiencing this problem, no one seems to know what causes it, or how to fix it. I would imagine if I saw the "Install Ubuntu alongside Windows" option, it would install and boot without issue.

I am going to format the Ubuntu partitions, make a LiveUSB, and give it a shot that way. I thought maybe I had too many primary partitions on my HDD (because I have 5, [recovery, C:/, recovery, Ubuntu, swap]) and that is why it wouldn't boot, but then I found out that my HDD is GPT Partitioned disc, and that I can have up to 128 primary partitions, without issue, so that definitely isn't the problem.
Could be the placement of the partitions. My setup is recovery, EFI, C:\ (Win8 partition), Ubuntu partition, Ubuntu swap, recovery. Try it that way.

If you still can't get the "install alongside" option, try going back one screen, press Ctrl+Alt+T to open a terminal window, and then go

Code:
sudo modprobe efivars
then exit the terminal window, and continue on. If it still doesn't work, then you may not truely be running in UEFI mode. The lack of an EFI partition on your layout is concerning. Can we get a pic of Disk Management's output?

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I also read that Ubuntu 13.04 can handle and manage Secure Boot, so if I try to re-enable Secure Boot, and start over on fresh Partitions, it may detect Windows, and work without issue.

Not sure if I will have time tonight, but I am going to give it a shot as soon as I have time.
I've never got Secure Boot support working on 13.04, but I've got someone's else's system to actually do it. Not sure why it worked on hers but not mine.....
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Old September 26th, 2013, 04:13 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Joelgp83, after SwoRNLeaDejZ gets his situation resolved, if there are any other changes you want to make to your instruction post, please do--and then I'll replace the copy in the Linux thread with the updated version. If there won't be any additional changes, then I'll replace it with the version in this thread as it stands now.
There probably will be. I don't know if you've noticed, but I tend to make lots of edits to my posts because I tend to catch my typos and bad grammar after the fact. Most of my edits will be of that type to the instructions.
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Old September 26th, 2013, 04:18 PM   #25 (permalink)
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There probably will be. I don't know if you've noticed, but I tend to make lots of edits to my posts because I tend to catch my typos and bad grammar after the fact. Most of my edits will be of that type to the instructions.
No problem, just let me know when you're satisfied. Or, better yet, make the edits in the Linux thread. This thread will [likely] eventually age and get lost, so making the changes in the 'real' post would be good.
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Old September 26th, 2013, 07:44 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Could be the placement of the partitions. My setup is recovery, EFI, C:\ (Win8 partition), Ubuntu partition, Ubuntu swap, recovery. Try it that way.

If you still can't get the "install alongside" option, try going back one screen, press Ctrl+Alt+T to open a terminal window, and then go

Code:
sudo modprobe efivars
then exit the terminal window, and continue on. If it still doesn't work, then you may not truely be running in UEFI mode. The lack of an EFI partition on your layout is concerning. Can we get a pic of Disk Management's output?



I've never got Secure Boot support working on 13.04, but I've got someone's else's system to actually do it. Not sure why it worked on hers but not mine.....
Going to take my laptop with me to work tomorrow and I'll toss up some screen shots then. Had to take a break it was driving me insane

One interesting fact, windows doesn't recognize the Ubuntu partition (lists as unknown) and gparted reacts the same way to my recovery partitions.
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Old September 26th, 2013, 08:14 PM   #27 (permalink)
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One interesting fact, windows doesn't recognize the Ubuntu partition (lists as unknown) and gparted reacts the same way to my recovery partitions.
This is normal. Linux installs typically use the EXT2, EXT3, or EXT4 disk format. Windows does not know how to read it (possibly because Microsoft doesn't want to condone the use of Linux), so it simply lists it as unknown.

On the other hand, I've no idea why gparted can't recognize the recovery partitions. They are typically FAT32, and usually have a drive label called "Recovery". Either way, don't touch them. Better to not play with fire in case something completely hoses both your Linux AND Win8 installs.
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Old September 28th, 2013, 06:20 PM   #28 (permalink)
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This is normal. Linux installs typically use the EXT2, EXT3, or EXT4 disk format. Windows does not know how to read it (possibly because Microsoft doesn't want to condone the use of Linux), so it simply lists it as unknown.

On the other hand, I've no idea why gparted can't recognize the recovery partitions. They are typically FAT32, and usually have a drive label called "Recovery". Either way, don't touch them. Better to not play with fire in case something completely hoses both your Linux AND Win8 installs.
Dude, you truly are a godsend and a genius.

I formatted the partitions and started over. This time I did 198GB for the install and a 2GB swap. Installation finished perfectly and i rebooted... Went straight to Windows

Rebooted into the LiveCD.. Ran boot repair and this time I chose yes to backup and replace the windows UEFI files and reinstall grub, fixing what boot repair called a buggy kernel. Rebooted, this time it wouldn't boot windows at all

I used a repair disc to get into bios settings, I noticed an option that I hadn't seen before: Enable F12 to open boot menu. I enabled it. Now, when the Gateway logo displays, I press F12 and get 3 options, the top one Windows Boot Utility takes me to Windows, either of the other options opens grub, and allows me to either boot into windows or ubuntu. Problem solved.

One thing i did have to do, after I ran boot repair the first time, I booted back to ubuntu and chose advanced options in boot repair and set an option called 'OS to boot by default' to Windows.

Either way, it's working now, and if i had listened to you from the beginning, I would have ended this headache three days ago


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Old September 28th, 2013, 08:09 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Problem solved.
Awesome!
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Old September 28th, 2013, 10:04 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Sorry I am coming late into this thread... because life.

Anyway, from what I understand, Ubuntu 13.04 has a unique way of dealing with UEFI, and from what I understand from someone who is currently playing with 13.10beta that the upcoming version will be much better at handling UEFI and secure boot.

I went with rEFInd for dual-booting my Toshiba Satellite S55t, and after a few days of work managed to get the laptop to work with Secure Boot enabled for both Win 8 and Mint 15.

The key was digitally signing the kernel manually.
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Old September 28th, 2013, 10:28 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Sorry I am coming late into this thread... because life.

Anyway, from what I understand, Ubuntu 13.04 has a unique way of dealing with UEFI, and from what I understand from someone who is currently playing with 13.10beta that the upcoming version will be much better at handling UEFI and secure boot.

I went with rEFInd for dual-booting my Toshiba Satellite S55t, and after a few days of work managed to get the laptop to work with Secure Boot enabled for both Win 8 and Mint 15.

The key was digitally signing the kernel manually.
Sounds like a fun process (kidding)

I couldn't have possibly installed it with Secure Boot enabled, as Windows blocks the disc every single time. I don't understand how Microsoft including the Secure Boot feature doesn't equal some type of violation of monopoly laws in this country, and worldwide. It's total BS.. Microsoft didn't make my computer, Gateway did, why does Microsoft even get a partial say in what I can and can't install on it? If i owned a TV company, and sold the most powerful amazing TVs, and then included a feature that made it so you could only watch NBC, people would have a meltdown and sue the living hell out of me, and i would deserve it. Or if Dunkin Donuts made travel mugs where the bottom fell out if you filed them with Starbucks Coffee.. People would have a lot to say about that... Such crap.
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Old September 28th, 2013, 10:34 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Well, I did have Secure Boot disabled to install Mint and for the first week while trying to get rEFInd working correctly and everything.

But once I understood the steps required to get the kernel signed, I got Secure Boot re-enabled; if only because it removes a superfluous error page during boot-up (I seriously doubt any malware is gong to show up trying to hijack my EFI boot, which is theoretically what MS is trying to 'prevent').
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Old September 30th, 2013, 01:27 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Joelgp83, after SwoRNLeaDejZ gets his situation resolved, if there are any other changes you want to make to your instruction post, please do--and then I'll replace the copy in the Linux thread with the updated version. If there won't be any additional changes, then I'll replace it with the version in this thread as it stands now.
I don't have a lot of time right now (gotta go to bed), but I just want to say that last Thursday we had a modern UEFI Gateway desktop come into my school and stumped everyone else who was trying to get it reset to get win7 on it.

I got to futz with it and upon reviewing my notes of that encounter I can confirm that many of the UEFI BIOS issues SwoRNLeaDejZ had were also seen in that desktop (POST Boot device selection hotkey disabled by default, which keys you need to press, wording of options in the BIOS, etc), and that they are altogether different than the multiple UEFI HP systems I've worked on.

For that matter, the Dell Optiplexi we use in school (UEI College's CST training program ) also use an entirely different POST hotkey scheme than either Gateway or HP.

It seems each manufacturer, while keeping to the Win8/UEFI spec, has their own interpretation of how to implement the BIOS/POST environment settings. I may need to greatly modify my instructions to be per-manufacturer, which would mean multiple posts.....
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Old September 30th, 2013, 05:08 AM   #34 (permalink)
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I don't have a lot of time right now (gotta go to bed), but I just want to say that last Thursday we had a modern UEFI Gateway desktop come into my school and stumped everyone else who was trying to get it reset to get win7 on it.

I got to futz with it and upon reviewing my notes of that encounter I can confirm that many of the UEFI BIOS issues SwoRNLeaDejZ had were also seen in that desktop (POST Boot device selection hotkey disabled by default, which keys you need to press, wording of options in the BIOS, etc), and that they are altogether different than the multiple UEFI HP systems I've worked on.

For that matter, the Dell Optiplexi we use in school (UEI College's CST training program ) also use an entirely different POST hotkey scheme than either Gateway or HP.

It seems each manufacturer, while keeping to the Win8/UEFI spec, has their own interpretation of how to implement the BIOS/POST environment settings. I may need to greatly modify my instructions to be per-manufacturer, which would mean multiple posts.....
Dude, you know what the worst part is? There is an option to enable the BOOT MENU but there is no option to enable a bios hot key combo during post. The only way I can get into bios is to SHIFT + RESTART windows 8,and then choose troubleshoot, advanced options, UEFI firmware settings. It's almost like they try as hard as they possibly can to make it as hard as possible, for you to use anything other than a Microsoft product. Something needs to be done in an anti monopoly sense to end this.
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Old September 30th, 2013, 01:10 PM   #35 (permalink)
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I don't have a lot of time right now (gotta go to bed), but I just want to say that last Thursday we had a modern UEFI Gateway desktop come into my school and stumped everyone else who was trying to get it reset to get win7 on it.

I got to futz with it and upon reviewing my notes of that encounter I can confirm that many of the UEFI BIOS issues SwoRNLeaDejZ had were also seen in that desktop (POST Boot device selection hotkey disabled by default, which keys you need to press, wording of options in the BIOS, etc), and that they are altogether different than the multiple UEFI HP systems I've worked on.

For that matter, the Dell Optiplexi we use in school (UEI College's CST training program ) also use an entirely different POST hotkey scheme than either Gateway or HP.

It seems each manufacturer, while keeping to the Win8/UEFI spec, has their own interpretation of how to implement the BIOS/POST environment settings.
Thanks for that info.

Wow...that's really crazy.

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I may need to greatly modify my instructions to be per-manufacturer, which would mean multiple posts.....
Whew! That could turn into a Herculean task. Is there enough commonality that generic instructions for that part of the process could suffice? And/or let people ask for help with their specific manufacturer? Somehow keeping it to one main post...
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Old September 30th, 2013, 03:39 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Thanks for that info.

Wow...that's really crazy.


Whew! That could turn into a Herculean task. Is there enough commonality that generic instructions for that part of the process could suffice? And/or let people ask for help with their specific manufacturer? Somehow keeping it to one main post...
In speaking with other people and looking at a variety of the laptops at work, I think the majority of the process is the same, with tweaks and edits depending on manufacturer.

The problem seems worst on any HP machines.
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Old September 30th, 2013, 03:59 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Just turn Secure boot off and use legacy boot. Then it works just like pre-secure boot. I wouldn't trust secure boot anyway, not while Microsoft is responsible for signing. They can revoke a certificate at any time, then you're up the proverbial creek, as the Linux shim (or whatever other device is used to enable secure booting with Linux) won't be trusted or able to boot. Not that I'm being cynical or anything.
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Old September 30th, 2013, 04:09 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Actually, you can self-sign... it's just Ubuntu's shim that is wrong.

Look here for more information.
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Old September 30th, 2013, 09:00 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Whew....lotta questions to answer.

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Dude, you know what the worst part is? There is an option to enable the BOOT MENU but there is no option to enable a bios hot key combo during post. The only way I can get into bios is to SHIFT + RESTART windows 8,and then choose troubleshoot, advanced options, UEFI firmware settings. It's almost like they try as hard as they possibly can to make it as hard as possible, for you to use anything other than a Microsoft product. Something needs to be done in an anti monopoly sense to end this.
We encountered the same thing on the UEFI gateway machine at school. Sadly, I was the only one who knew Win8 well enough to pull that trick to get into the BIOS. Saved my instructor and everyone else a whole weekend of head scratching.

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Whew! That could turn into a Herculean task. Is there enough commonality that generic instructions for that part of the process could suffice? And/or let people ask for help with their specific manufacturer? Somehow keeping it to one main post...
The differences mainly concern which buttons to push, whether you can directly access the BIOS or have to go thru Win8 to do it, and what you need to enable in the BIOS to get there. Once the install disc gets booted, its generally going to be the same.

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In speaking with other people and looking at a variety of the laptops at work, I think the majority of the process is the same, with tweaks and edits depending on manufacturer.

The problem seems worst on any HP machines.
Actually, I've found the best ones are HP machines. They're up-front and consistant about what buttons to push across their models (F2 to access UEFI diagnostics, F9 to select Boot device, and F10 to directly access BIOS options)

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Just turn Secure boot off and use legacy boot. Then it works just like pre-secure boot. I wouldn't trust secure boot anyway, not while Microsoft is responsible for signing. They can revoke a certificate at any time, then you're up the proverbial creek, as the Linux shim (or whatever other device is used to enable secure booting with Linux) won't be trusted or able to boot. Not that I'm being cynical or anything.
IMO, if you've got the ability to run your OS in UEFI mode you should. What with the faster handoff/bootup times and simpler boot device selection (in Legacy mode, all your drives show up twice -- one for Legacy and one for UEFI).

Furthermore, running in UEFI mode and keeping legacy mode off is a more resilient setup if, say, either the Win8 bootmgr or GRUB get corrupted. Since they don't overwrite each other but have their own separate side-by-side EFI Partition entries, the utter destruction of one won't require a boot/repair disc to get into the other.
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