Go Back   Android Forums > Android Phones > HTC Desire S

Get excited for the Samsung Galaxy S5! Find everything you need and discuss it in our Galaxy S5 Forum!

Like Tree1Likes

test: Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old September 13th, 2011, 11:11 AM   #201 (permalink)
New Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 6
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

Hi,

Can anyone tell me exactly what version software works?

AmmoB is offline  
Reply With Quote
sponsored links
Old September 13th, 2011, 05:11 PM   #202 (permalink)
New Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 2
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 1
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

Hi Guys,

Another disgruntled desire s owner, I found this forum after doing a google search.

I am with 3 mobile and have very similar problems to everyone else. When people phone me it goes straight to voicemail, but the strange thing is I get a text notification immediately letting me know I have a voicemail.

I also have an odd problem with texts, sometimes I get them right away and sometimes they take ages to arrive. But when they arrive they display the time it was sent (for example a text would say 13:00 but it arrived at 13:15).

When I have zero bars of signal I can still browse the internet at very fast speeds.

I don't want to call customer services (especially 3's dodgy advisors in Mumbai) and see calling HTC gets no results either. I have had this phone for 5 months and it had been flawless until I updated the software about a month ago.

Any advice.
ianmk4 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2011, 02:16 AM   #203 (permalink)
New Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 8
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 4
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

Detailed fault report sent back with my phone, entered on their jobs card, sent via email, and they even phoned me to check the fault.

They job card has been updated.

Job Fault: Signal Loss
Repair Outcome:No Fault Found (Software) - Post Call

I won't hold my breath.
sj_4x4 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2011, 03:48 AM   #204 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 87
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 17
Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianmk4 View Post
Hi Guys,

Another disgruntled desire s owner, I found this forum after doing a google search.

I am with 3 mobile and have very similar problems to everyone else. When people phone me it goes straight to voicemail, but the strange thing is I get a text notification immediately letting me know I have a voicemail.

I also have an odd problem with texts, sometimes I get them right away and sometimes they take ages to arrive. But when they arrive they display the time it was sent (for example a text would say 13:00 but it arrived at 13:15).

When I have zero bars of signal I can still browse the internet at very fast speeds.

I don't want to call customer services (especially 3's dodgy advisors in Mumbai) and see calling HTC gets no results either. I have had this phone for 5 months and it had been flawless until I updated the software about a month ago.

Any advice.
I would say it's very likely you've got the same issues as everyone else. They will offer you a replacement SIM which won't work. They'll take your phone in for 'repair', replace the motherboard and leave the updated software on there. That won't work either.

Your options are:

1) Wait for a fix. Neither HTC or the networks have consistently admitted there's a problem or where it lies when they do. It appears on O2 at least that the software update is no longer available, leading us to suspect that someone relevant, somewhere, knows the issue exists and is in the software. Additionally, no-one has said there is definitely any fix being worked on. It may arrive tomorrow or never.

2) Ask for/beg for/demand a replacement phone - a Desire S with the original software or a completely different model. I and one other user now have a HTC Sensation from O2 thanks to handling them in the right way. Others are trying letters of complaint to their network, Watchdog and/or Ofcom.

3) Switch to a 2G only signal, as described here by solorize:

Signal drops completely - HTC Desire S

You should have continuous signal but will lose 3G functionality.

4) Downgrade the software yourself to an earlier version. This is reported to work but it's not as simple as it was when you updated over the air (OTA) to problematic software you have now. It also invalidates your warranty, but this is potentially reversible.

Yesterday I took another member of the forum through a list of instructions to perform #4. Essentially, this forum is now performing technical support on behalf of the networks and HTC. We are fixing issues they caused and cannot/will not fix.

I am hesitant to post how to do this because it may suppress the level of the issue and give them the idea that they don't have to do anything about it. I want to make it explicitly clear that the networks, and HTC's technical support AND marketing department have been made aware of the problem, and to date, we have been told nothing.

If you would like the instructions on how to do it and the risks involved:

1) Post on this thread what network you're on and your outcomes so far
2) Submit a fault to HTC (HTC Help Center)
3) Send me a PM
schnide is offline  
Last edited by schnide; September 14th, 2011 at 06:39 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to schnide For This Useful Post:
rf9 (October 3rd, 2011)
Old September 14th, 2011, 04:25 AM   #205 (permalink)
New Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

I am having the same issues as described in this thread - calls go straight to voicemail, delay in receiving text messages and text messages arriving out of order.

I am on o2.

BUT I have a Desire, not a Desire S and I am on 2.2.

Software number
2.14.107.3
PeteNZ is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2011, 04:30 AM   #206 (permalink)
New Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

The fault lies with the latest android release, I see it on my N1 and my partners DS. There's little point in sending your phone back as the repair centres are powerless to help and are bound to ensure the firmware is the version approved by the networks. No point getting angry at anyone other than HTC and Android but remember when the flaw is fixed the ROM has to be adapted for Sense and then adapted for the network and then approved by them for release. This of course can take months, keep the pressure on HTC as I dare say they are aware of the problems.

A few fixes you can try is enabling/disabling airplane mode which forced the RF to re-register on the network. Also try settings>mobile networks>network operators>search networks then manually register on the network. This definitely fixes the messaging push issues.
DeepThroat is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2011, 04:43 AM   #207 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 87
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 17
Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepThroat View Post
The fault lies with the latest android release, I see it on my N1 and my partners DS. There's little point in sending your phone back as the repair centres are powerless to help and are bound to ensure the firmware is the version approved by the networks. No point getting angry at anyone other than HTC and Android but remember when the flaw is fixed the ROM has to be adapted for Sense and then adapted for the network and then approved by them for release. This of course can take months, keep the pressure on HTC as I dare say they are aware of the problems.

A few fixes you can try is enabling/disabling airplane mode which forced the RF to re-register on the network. Also try settings>mobile networks>network operators>search networks then manually register on the network. This definitely fixes the messaging push issues.
Hi DeepThroat and thanks for the first post. I think you'll need to explain your sources for saying that the fault lies with Android - firstly what in Android is causing the issue, and secondly how you know this to be the case. If the fault lies in Android, I am truly shocked it hasn't been experienced by so many more users but I stand to be corrected.

We only began experiencing these problems with the latest software release for the Desire S, which didn't update Android to my knowledge. Clearly this particular software update originates from HTC but the networks then brand it, approve it and release it. They are both in part to blame particularly as the issue isn't network specific.

The fixes you have suggested are not fixes at all if you are suggesting it's viable to do this every time people need to reconnect to the network. Switching to a 2G only signal seems to be the only way to regain consistent service without changing either the phone software or hardware, but this is hardly a satisfactory solution either if you're paying for the full 3G signal.
schnide is offline  
Last edited by schnide; September 14th, 2011 at 05:40 AM.
Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2011, 05:51 AM   #208 (permalink)
New Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

The problems reported on this thread has already been covered in the Vodafone forums when the N1 update was released, as well as the Nexus forums. The N1 does not use the Sense overlay and receives all its vanilla updates direct from Google not HTC.

Your O2 update has systematically been approved by all UK networks so this bug has been missed by everyone's devices team. To keep you up to date the networks specify their settings to HTC for them to incorporate into Sense, they do not 'brand it' as you suggest. Only HTC can rectify the issue.

I'm curious at to why you flamed my hints, there are a lot of Desire S users who want to use their phone and don't want to downgrade their SW. These fixes will restore functionality to their investments until the bug fix is released.

Should anyone want to know what the RF of their handset is up to enter *#*#4636#*#* into the phone, enjoy. Anyone who switched from Desire S to Sensation may want to use this code and see what happens to their RSSI when they hold it.
DeepThroat is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2011, 05:56 AM   #209 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 731
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 27
Thanked 178 Times in 165 Posts
Default

It's pretty certain that this problem, or at least its symptoms, is not unique to the Desire S.

Google Mobile Help Forum and code.google.com users report similar issues with a variety of phones over a couple years.

A few months ago, a Google employee on the Mobile Help Forum said that Google are investigating, although this relates to the Nexus S. However, for those of you waiting for OS 2.3.4 to provide the fix, I doubt it will provide the universal solution to all affected phones. Read more from the Google Employee, 'Paul', in this thread.

None of this proves where the fault lies nor who owns it. If it is the OS, then it's unlikely HTC or the network carrier will be able to fix it, although they might be able to bodge it.
notebook is offline  
Last edited by notebook; September 14th, 2011 at 08:56 AM.
Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2011, 06:23 AM   #210 (permalink)
New Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

Unfortunately 2.4.6 on the Nexus S has created as many issues as it fixed but with any luck IceCream should put everything right. Shame the Sense integration takes so long to filter down to the end users.
DeepThroat is offline  
Reply With Quote
sponsored links
Old September 14th, 2011, 06:37 AM   #211 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 87
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 17
Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepThroat View Post
The problems reported on this thread has already been covered in the Vodafone forums when the N1 update was released, as well as the Nexus forums. The N1 does not use the Sense overlay and receives all its vanilla updates direct from Google not HTC.

Your O2 update has systematically been approved by all UK networks so this bug has been missed by everyone's devices team. To keep you up to date the networks specify their settings to HTC for them to incorporate into Sense, they do not 'brand it' as you suggest. Only HTC can rectify the issue.

I'm curious at to why you flamed my hints, there are a lot of Desire S users who want to use their phone and don't want to downgrade their SW. These fixes will restore functionality to their investments until the bug fix is released.

Should anyone want to know what the RF of their handset is up to enter *#*#4636#*#* into the phone, enjoy. Anyone who switched from Desire S to Sensation may want to use this code and see what happens to their RSSI when they hold it.
You've hardly been flamed, I was asking where your sources were. You're telling me that networks do not brand the software? So when I receive a HTC phone from O2, it's HTC who put the O2 logo on there, add/remove extra applications and make any similar adjustments to the software for them?

On my understanding, the software is initially released by HTC, as I said, then bug checked and branded by the network, as I said. So the bugs assuming they originate in the HTC software, will have been missed/passed by any network having these problems if the software is to blame, as I said.

Your 'fixes' don't restore functionality any more than just restarting the phone. Switching to a 2G signal as has already been suggested is far more a short term solution, which I can and should add to the original list.
schnide is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2011, 07:55 AM   #212 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Berkshire UK
Posts: 68
 
Device(s): HTC Sensation
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 14
Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts
Default

Quick update, my temporary fix by switching to GSM only, has helped get a more stable signal, BUT this is only a temporary solution and I did still have it lose signal one day when I looked at the phone but after a while the signal did come back, Which didn't happen when I was WCDMA preferred or GSM auto (PRL).

Plus as I am continually switching back and forth between GSM only and WCDMA preferred every time I need to use the internet, having the phone disconnect and then reconnect to the selected mode, similar to turning ON and OFF Aeroplane mode (or rebooting), which I had to do when I lost signal. This problably does not give my phone to chance to drop the signal.


solorize is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2011, 09:49 AM   #213 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Norwich, UK
Posts: 20
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 5
Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Ah bugger! I was going to buy a sim free Desire S in a few weeks, what's the likelihood of getting this version? Fingers crossed a new release will fix this soon, not holding my breath after the level of HTC customer support people have been reporting.
mark_baguley is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2011, 10:56 AM   #214 (permalink)
New Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by schnide View Post
On my understanding, the software is initially released by HTC, as I said, then bug checked and branded by the network, as I said.
Sorry you're wrong.

mark_baguley, I can confirm 1.47 is approved for all the UK networks so it is likely you will get one with this version unless you find one that's been on a shelf for well over a month.
DeepThroat is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2011, 11:33 AM   #215 (permalink)
New Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

For those out of warranty, is rooting the phone with a specific vanilla android release a good option for fixing the issues?
PeteNZ is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2011, 11:48 AM   #216 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 18
 
Device(s): One X+ Desire S
Carrier: giffgaff

Thanks: 0
Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteNZ View Post
For those out of warranty, is rooting the phone with a specific vanilla android release a good option for fixing the issues?
If you're trying to rollback from the 1.47 OTA then yes.
ercm03 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2011, 11:53 AM   #217 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 87
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 17
Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeepThroat View Post
Sorry you're wrong.

mark_baguley, I can confirm 1.47 is approved for all the UK networks so it is likely you will get one with this version unless you find one that's been on a shelf for well over a month.
Don't be sorry. Enlighten me with a source as I said before. I hope it's clear that the goal of this thread is to educate people on the problem and what they can do about it. If I stand to be corrected on something, then I will be. No harm done, no patronising needed.

You're saying that the networks don't take the manufacturer software, brand it as their own then release it to the customer? I would, genuinely, like to know what you're saying actually happens then and how you know this.
schnide is offline  
Last edited by schnide; September 14th, 2011 at 11:59 AM.
Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2011, 12:08 PM   #218 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 87
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 17
Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark_baguley View Post
Ah bugger! I was going to buy a sim free Desire S in a few weeks, what's the likelihood of getting this version? Fingers crossed a new release will fix this soon, not holding my breath after the level of HTC customer support people have been reporting.
It depends on where you buy it from and how long they've had the stock for. O2, for example, don't even stock the black Desire S anymore either online or in-store. A blue version is available although in all the various reports of what's been happening, there doesn't seem to have been any specific reference to the blue model so it seems to be unknown whether this is carrying the latest software.
schnide is offline  
Last edited by schnide; September 14th, 2011 at 12:10 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2011, 12:17 PM   #219 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Norwich, UK
Posts: 20
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 5
Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by schnide View Post
It depends on where you buy it from and how long they've had the stock for. O2, for example, don't even stock the black Desire S anymore either online or in-store. A blue version is available although in all the various reports of what's been happening, there doesn't seem to have been any specific reference to the blue model so it seems to be unknown whether this is carrying the latest software.
Ah fair enough, well I guess I'll just have to take my chances. I suppose all the talk of changing the radio and/or downgrading would require rooting? Can you install a previous official rom without rooting?
mark_baguley is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2011, 12:24 PM   #220 (permalink)
New Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 8
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 4
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

As expected the usless sods have ignored all the requests I made to downgrade the software, "We could not find a fault, to stop it comming back we have put the latest software on it, this should fix any problems caused by the original software"

Enough is enough, I will downgrade it myself and will be making formal complaints.
sj_4x4 is offline  
Reply With Quote
sponsored links
Old September 14th, 2011, 12:27 PM   #221 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 87
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 17
Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark_baguley View Post
Ah fair enough, well I guess I'll just have to take my chances. I suppose all the talk of changing the radio and/or downgrading would require rooting? Can you install a previous official rom without rooting?
The answer is not quite a simple yes or no.. but in its simplest form, it's no and yes respectively.

You can install a previous official rom without rooting but you do have to take an initial level of protection off the phone first. This is called making the phone S-OFF, and it's very likely your phone will be shipped S-ON.

After the phone is S-OFF, then you can root, but it's not something you'd have to do to downgrade the software even when using an official updater (or 'downdater' in this case!).

I went through the procedure with another member on the forum who said they were not very technologically minded at all, and it was successfully completed. Although it's yet to be confirmed whether it's solved their problems or not, I haven't yet been told of any issues and other reports with this process in general say it does solve them.

There is still a risk involved because it's not a standard procedure, and most likely will invalidate your warranty, but as has been said already in this thread, you can either have a warranty for a phone that doesn't work (and HTC won't fix) or a phone without one that does.
schnide is offline  
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to schnide For This Useful Post:
mark_baguley (September 14th, 2011)
Old September 14th, 2011, 01:22 PM   #222 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Norwich, UK
Posts: 20
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 5
Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by schnide View Post
The answer is not quite a simple yes or no.. but in its simplest form, it's no and yes respectively.

You can install a previous official rom without rooting but you do have to take an initial level of protection off the phone first. This is called making the phone S-OFF, and it's very likely your phone will be shipped S-ON.

After the phone is S-OFF, then you can root, but it's not something you'd have to do to downgrade the software even when using an official updater (or 'downdater' in this case!).

I went through the procedure with another member on the forum who said they were not very technologically minded at all, and it was successfully completed. Although it's yet to be confirmed whether it's solved their problems or not, I haven't yet been told of any issues and other reports with this process in general say it does solve them.

There is still a risk involved because it's not a standard procedure, and most likely will invalidate your warranty, but as has been said already in this thread, you can either have a warranty for a phone that doesn't work (and HTC won't fix) or a phone without one that does.
Thanks for the reply, very useful. Hopefully in the next few weeks it'll be sorted but if not I'll be back for some more advice
mark_baguley is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2011, 01:22 PM   #223 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 2
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by schnide View Post
I went through the procedure with another member on the forum who said they were not very technologically minded at all, and it was successfully completed. Although it's yet to be confirmed whether it's solved their problems or not, I haven't yet been told of any issues and other reports with this process in general say it does solve them.

There is still a risk involved because it's not a standard procedure, and most likely will invalidate your warranty, but as has been said already in this thread, you can either have a warranty for a phone that doesn't work (and HTC won't fix) or a phone without one that does.
Report update, after downgrading the software on my desire s yesterday, (rollback) making it S-Off and installing RUU, I can VERY gladly say, that ALL my issues seem to be sorted. Call coming through when they should, no messages telling me I had a missed call 30 seconds ago, and my messages come through on time . My faith has been restored in the phone, would just like to thank 'schnide' for all his help and guidance. Your a true gent. Regards, Mike.
mike2777 is offline  
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to mike2777 For This Useful Post:
schnide (September 15th, 2011)
Old September 14th, 2011, 03:11 PM   #224 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Berkshire UK
Posts: 68
 
Device(s): HTC Sensation
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 14
Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts
Default

@Mike2777 I am glad to hear that doing the downgrade has worked for you. Nice one for having the B4LLS to do it to

I'm really tempted to do the same (so will probably have to ask Schnide if he can talk me though it), if I get no joy back from O2. I will give O2 a while to see if they reply to my email and offer to replace my phone. But if I don't hear anything back or not be offered a replacement I will then "as a last resort" try downgrading.

Then once out of my contract I will seriously think of leaving O2 and going with another provider.
solorize is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2011, 04:22 PM   #225 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 2
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Default

@solorize,, Orange are good for their customer support generally,thats who im with. I recieved a replacement phone on Monday, BUT it had the new software on it already, hence had exactly the same problem. I just reached the point were I thought enough was enough, and decided to give the downgrade a go, now you must understand I have quite limited computer skills, but with the help from Schnide I was able to complete the job. And even better, it worked, its such a relief to finally have a working phone again, as like everyone is saying on here,,,, complaints just seem to be falling on deaf ears.
mike2777 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old September 15th, 2011, 03:37 AM   #226 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 87
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 17
Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by solorize View Post
@Mike2777 I am glad to hear that doing the downgrade has worked for you. Nice one for having the B4LLS to do it to

I'm really tempted to do the same (so will probably have to ask Schnide if he can talk me though it), if I get no joy back from O2. I will give O2 a while to see if they reply to my email and offer to replace my phone. But if I don't hear anything back or not be offered a replacement I will then "as a last resort" try downgrading.

Then once out of my contract I will seriously think of leaving O2 and going with another provider.
In all honesty I don't think any real blame can be laid at the feet of the network, this is mostly out of their expertise at any level of the company we would get near being exposed to. O2 in my experience at least have been fantastic.

As far as email complaints go, let me put it this way - virtually no company is going to offer you anything they don't have to and will cost them money without any pressure being placed on them. An email can be sent around the houses and they'll make a decision at their leisure, which they'll trust you'll accept because in the same way, there's no immediate pressure from you rejecting it.

If you speak to someone, every second they're not saying "yes okay, we will replace your phone" is time they have to think of something else to say to appease you. Your goal is to make sure they cave in before you do.

If all else does fail, I have no problem going through the downgrading with you.
schnide is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old September 15th, 2011, 03:49 AM   #227 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 31
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 2
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

o2 are still sending version 1.31 out as replacements. well that was week before last, so its anyones guess if you will still get that earlier version, and correct no black ones, but teal ones i had x2. but you will get email sync issues as i and my friend encountered, i didnt notice until he mentioned it.
starman316 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old September 15th, 2011, 03:49 AM   #228 (permalink)
New Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

since my phone is havign the same issues, i've been reading this thread for a week or two with nothing to add, but today i spoke to o2 and they have told me there's a new software version coming out on the 27/9/11

although they apparently werent aware of this particular issue (until i told him how to use google), hopefully the fix will be included.

in the meantime they've given me a months free line rental and told me if it doesnt fix on the 27th with the new software, call back & we'll try & sort a new phone.

lets keep fingers crossed for the next 12 days!
eddyodwyer is offline  
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to eddyodwyer For This Useful Post:
rfk101 (September 20th, 2011)
Old September 15th, 2011, 05:59 AM   #229 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 87
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 17
Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddyodwyer View Post
since my phone is havign the same issues, i've been reading this thread for a week or two with nothing to add, but today i spoke to o2 and they have told me there's a new software version coming out on the 27/9/11

although they apparently werent aware of this particular issue (until i told him how to use google), hopefully the fix will be included.

in the meantime they've given me a months free line rental and told me if it doesnt fix on the 27th with the new software, call back & we'll try & sort a new phone.

lets keep fingers crossed for the next 12 days!
Really interesting news on the software front, thanks for passing it on to us. I wonder what the upgrade will entail and whether it has anything to do with fixing these issues.. two weeks until we find out I guess.

Incidentally to my knowledge, those who've downgraded already should be able to upgrade to this latest version if they choose. Whether they'll be able to downgrade again straight away though will depend on exactly what's new that gets pushed through.
schnide is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old September 15th, 2011, 07:10 AM   #230 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Norwich, UK
Posts: 20
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 5
Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Yep fingers crossed for the new update! I guess this would most likely be an O2 branded HTC update so the other networks and unbranded phones will also get it around the same time? I can't understand why HTC wouldn't want to let people know about a new update to fix this issue, seems to be affecting a lot of users.
mark_baguley is offline  
Last edited by mark_baguley; September 15th, 2011 at 07:33 AM.
Reply With Quote
sponsored links
Old September 15th, 2011, 07:30 AM   #231 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Berkshire UK
Posts: 68
 
Device(s): HTC Sensation
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 14
Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts
Default

Quote:
today i spoke to o2 and they have told me there's a new software version coming out on the 27/9/11
This indeed would be good news;

1. If it does materialise.

2. If it actually fixes all these problems we are suffering with.

But in the mean time we are all still having to suffer with phones that don't work.
solorize is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old September 15th, 2011, 08:56 AM   #232 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 87
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 17
Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts
Default

Additional good news is that if the new release is only the unbranded one and the O2 one will take months more to past testing/branding etc, there's a way of getting that onto your phone instead. But let's cross that bridge when if/we come to it.
schnide is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old September 15th, 2011, 11:18 AM   #233 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 17
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 2
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

recieved a replacement DS today its black and has 1.47.206.2 on it
billy06 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old September 15th, 2011, 03:25 PM   #234 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 2
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by schnide View Post

Incidentally to my knowledge, those who've downgraded already should be able to upgrade to this latest version if they choose.

NOT me, i'll be keeping my downgraded software as it is, as at least I know that everything works as it should lol, not gonna push my luck
mike2777 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old September 16th, 2011, 02:29 AM   #235 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Berkshire UK
Posts: 68
 
Device(s): HTC Sensation
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 14
Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts
Lightbulb

It would be nice if someone from either O2 or HTC could definitely confirm that this new software update will be coming out on the 27/09/2011.

As at the moment it is just "hear say" and they may have just said this date to (eddyodwyer) just to try and fob him off ?


On a side note;
There needs to be an official way to get problems and solutions logged on a providers website. That is visible to everyone and that the providers can acknowledge and post up what is happening to get them resolved.

Doing this will stop us being left in the dark, and customers can see what problems are being experienced by other customers and what the providers are doing to rectify the problems with regular updates?

solorize is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old September 16th, 2011, 03:36 AM   #236 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 87
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 17
Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by solorize View Post
There needs to be an official way to get problems and solutions logged on a providers website. That is visible to everyone and that the providers can acknowledge and post up what is happening to get them resolved.

Doing this will stop us being left in the dark, and customers can see what problems are being experienced by other customers and what the providers are doing to rectify the problems with regular updates?

I don't think that's likely to happen and I can understand why. What company in its right mind is going to officially publicise a list of issues it has? It'd be a PR disaster, even for and in fact especially for any company brave enough to do it and actually fix those issues. As HTC themselves said (but very poorly communicated) they can read forums but can't trust them as an official source.

Technological companies are especially vulnerable to the fact that there'll be some people who think they have broken phones or issues when in fact they're just using them wrongly and/or don't understand how they work. If you have a company whose products are popular, that's even more likely to be the case and you'll have those people in greater numbers. So you'd end up with a larger, public list of issues that might not even be issues at all, which everyone would take to mean that product has the greatest number of faults, and all because that company was trying to be helpful and proactive.

That's why forums like this are a godsend compared to recent years where we'd all be none the wiser, and why any company wanting to protect their investment - rightly or wrongly - would rather they didn't exist and certainly wouldn't want to endorse an official list of problems.

I think HTC's current setup in principle is the right one (frontline staff logging and compiling calls, to be escaled to technical folk) but it appears to be very badly implemented and managed from both a resolution and communication point of view.
schnide is offline  
Last edited by schnide; September 16th, 2011 at 03:38 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to schnide For This Useful Post:
sj_4x4 (September 16th, 2011)
Old September 16th, 2011, 05:05 AM   #237 (permalink)
New Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 8
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 4
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

Thanks to schnide's excellent instructions I am "downgraded" and have a working Desire-S again, and the iTwat can go back in the desk drawer where it belongs.

Adding to the comments above, my phone was looked at by Delivering customised after-sales solutions - ANOVO whi seem to fix every electronic gadget under the sun, hardly surprising they bounce stuff as No Fault Found, when detailed fault instruction is replaced with 'no Signal'
sj_4x4 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old September 16th, 2011, 05:13 AM   #238 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Norwich, UK
Posts: 20
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 5
Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts
Default

@schnide Would it be possible to put these downgrading instructions on the forum, maybe in a pdf? Obviously with a disclaimer so you take no responsibility for bricks. Would be easier than talking to everyone personally.
mark_baguley is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old September 16th, 2011, 05:51 AM   #239 (permalink)
New Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 2
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Hi all,

Like many others I stumbled across the topic when I started googling for info about the issue I was having with my new HTC Desire S. Ever since it upgraded to 1.47.206.2, I've had the same issue with the signal dropping out after periods of leaving the phone inactive. Almost every morning I'll unlock the screen after sleeping and see the X on my signal meter.

Like others I'm on o2. I chatted to them on their live chat but wasn't able to get much advise. The person only said "great, it's still on warranty so we can get it returned" to which I said I didn't want to as I know the problem won't get fixed. He said the returns & repair team will contact me.

I'm pretty disgruntled as I need this phone to work properly right now as I'm job hunting and don't want a prospective employer to end up on my answer machine. This all in the same week that I downgraded my o2 broadband package from my legacy pro onto the gimped all rounder that doesn't let me download updates for my game cause its p2p ~.~
Takayanagi is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old September 16th, 2011, 07:23 AM   #240 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 87
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 17
Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark_baguley View Post
@schnide Would it be possible to put these downgrading instructions on the forum, maybe in a pdf? Obviously with a disclaimer so you take no responsibility for bricks. Would be easier than talking to everyone personally.
Don't worry, whenever I've offered to help there are disclaimers

But my concern is that (aside from legal issues, just in case) would be to allow this to be some kind of safe haven not for Desire S users but also HTC, or at least whoever else has the real responsibility of sorting this out.

I don't know how many people will be reading this thread without registering or commenting, but I would imagine there's more than those who have. If they come here and downgrade without ever telling HTC and/or their network that there's a problem, HTC and the networks have no pressure or incentive to sort it out.

Additionally, there'll be users who may be left without warranty (although the process IS potentially reversible) for when a non-related fault develops, and this process will be responsible for HTC denying them any kind of after service.

That, on top of the fact that I'm not qualified in all this in anyway except for having been in the same boat..

--

I've now posted full instructions lower down this thread, or alternatively can be linked to here:

Signal drops completely - HTC Desire S
schnide is offline  
Last edited by schnide; September 16th, 2011 at 09:05 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to schnide For This Useful Post:
mark_baguley (September 16th, 2011)
sponsored links
Old September 16th, 2011, 07:41 AM   #241 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Norwich, UK
Posts: 20
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 5
Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by schnide View Post
Don't worry, whenever I've offered to help there are disclaimers

But my concern is that (aside from legal issues, just in case) would be to allow this to be some kind of safe haven not for Desire S users but also HTC, or at least whoever else has the real responsibility of sorting this out.

I don't know how many people will be reading this thread without registering or commenting, but I would imagine there's more than those who have. If they come here and downgrade without ever telling HTC and/or their network that there's a problem, HTC and the networks have no pressure or incentive to sort it out.

Additionally, there'll be users who may be left without warranty (although the process IS potentially reversible) for when a non-related fault develops, and this process will be responsible for HTC denying them any kind of after service.

That, on top of the fact that I'm not qualified in all this in anyway except for having been in the same boat..
That's a very good point, well made! I've emailed HTC about the possible software update, not expecting a helpful reply though.
mark_baguley is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old September 16th, 2011, 07:41 AM   #242 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 731
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 27
Thanked 178 Times in 165 Posts
Default

@mark_baguley

The information you're asking for has been posted a number of times in this forum and on this site by a few people, including myself. See here for the latest. And don't forget the Desires S - All Things Root sub-forum.

Should you want to check things out for yourself, XDA-Developers is the best place for the latest information regarding rooting, ROMs and RUUs and what to do with them.
notebook is offline  
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to notebook For This Useful Post:
mark_baguley (September 16th, 2011)
Old September 16th, 2011, 07:55 AM   #243 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Norwich, UK
Posts: 20
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 5
Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by notebook View Post
@mark_baguley

The information you're asking for has been posted a number of times in this forum and on this site by a few people, including myself. See here for the latest. And don't forget the Desires S - All Things Root sub-forum.

Should you want to check things out for yourself, XDA-Developers is the best place for the latest information regarding rooting, ROMs and RUUs and what to do with them.
Thanks notebook, I had already seen quite a bit about the Revolutionary software but mostly it was about rooting for custom roms which isn't something I wanted to do, then again having gone s-off it's not much of a leap to custom roms. Must resist tinkering!!
mark_baguley is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old September 16th, 2011, 08:26 AM   #244 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 87
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 17
Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts
Default

Thanks for the support there notebook, really appreciate that. We'll have HTC trembling in their boots now!

Well, since that's been rendered useless and if it's a choice of following your links or some more friendly instructions where they don't have to root, let's go with what I've been sending to people then.

Instructions to Downgrade the HTC Desire S

Before you undertake this procedure, be aware of the following:

- Although it is possible to return your phone to a state which is likely to appear to the network that you have not done so, you will temporarily at least invalidate your warranty

- You perform this at your own risk. Although it is a relatively simple process, you're undertaking actions outside of those expected of you as an end user and any damage you do, unlikely as it is, is your own responsibility

- O2 users: This procedure works for you too, the only exception being that you will lose your speed dial #1 to your voicemail. This will be set to 123 rather than 901 and, to my knowledge, cannot be changed. This is because O2 are owned by Telefonica, a Spanish company. No-one else appears to have picked this up, but I promise you that your phone will not be in Spanish and you will otherwise not notice any difference. Outside of this caveat, your phone should be returned to perfect working condition.

Once you have accepted all this, then by performing these actions your phone will be downgraded and to a normal, reported working state with no visible differences.

So here's some basic terminology to ease you in. Now real tech-heads will probably correct me on this, but this is my understanding and it's got me through:

S-ON / S-OFF - Your phone is currently protected from having its software written to by being S-ON. Up until recently, all HTC phones were supplied in an S-ON state. We need to make your phone S-OFF and remove this protection to downgrade the software.

Rooting - This is when you gain access to the core software of the phone and you will see this mentioned in the guide you'll follow. HOWEVER you will not root your phone. This is just for your reference and understanding.

RUU - Remote Update Utility, containing an official release of the software. Your phone is protected by S-ON from this being allowed to be used. So if you've been paying attention to what we've said so far, you may have worked out what we're going to do is..

..make your phone S-OFF to allow us to run the RUU. Below is a video I used at one point which was kindly sent to me as well. I did think about writing up a pure list of instructions but if you have a video to follow, you can visually see what needs to be done and make sure yours matches up. However, the video isn't perfect or exactly what you need to do, so I've made additional notes for you.

Read through these instructions twice before you carry out a single action. Follow the video where appropriate, pausing and replaying AT ANY TIME you don't understand. It's actually all straightforward, but given how dangerous you've been told this is, you won't believe that and nor should you just to be safe

1) Turn off your phone.

2) This is the video you'll be using:

How to S-Off and Root the HTC Desire S [HD] - A step-by-step tutorial - YouTube

(Start taking notice at 00:35, the rest is just filler)

3) At 1:14, make a note of whether your phone says 0.98.0000 or 0.98.0002.

Note: If you have trouble getting to this screen and it just boots normally, try taking the battery out, leaving it for 30 seconds, reinserting it and then go again.

4) If when you get to this stage your phone says S-OFF instead of S-ON (which is VERY unlikely) then stop as you'll only have to run the RUU but there will be other steps you have to complete similar to several in here but that's not the focus of this guide.

5) By 2:10 when he says to uninstall HTC Sync, you may not have it installed, in which case obviously don't worry.

6) At 4:00 in, make sure you do get your serial number and not your IMEI number or anything else, and copy it exactly.

7) At 4:05 when you generate the key, keep it open and handy and notice whether any zeroes are actually letter O's and vice versa. The best way to do it is copy the key, making sure you don't capture any leading or trailing spaces, and then right click -> paste when you come to entering the code in the later, relevant stage.

8) At 4:35 the video will gloss over something you need to do but you will go to:

Menu > Settings > Applications > Development

..and enable USB Debugging.

9) It wouldn't hurt to check again that Fast Boot is disabled:

Settings > Power > Fast Boot

10) Copy everything that he does up until 6:53. He will root from this point onwards - we don't need to, so stop watching!

11) Go to this page:

[ROM]Shipped Desire S ROM Collection - xda-developers

..and read down the list until you see an entry for your network - look for the third word in each emboldened line. Download that file.

12) If your phone is connected to the PC, then take out the cable, wait a second and reconnect, and choose Disk Drive.

13) Run the file you just downloaded. Follow only EXACTLY as it says. If it sits waiting to recognise the phone but never does, cancel it, try enabling USB Debugging again as in no. 8 earlier and go again.

14) Assuming it then runs, be patient. Don't touch it until it looks like it's finished and your phone is back into the initial setup mode. If it looks like you're stuck on the white HTC screen, just leave it. It probably isn't stuck, it just takes ages. The most you should need to do at this stage is unlock it briefly using the power button if it goes to sleep.

And at the end of it all, you'll basically be up and running on the old software.

Now I have to stress, that without having your phone in front of me and performing these actions, I cannot guarantee that this will work with whatever you do to follow it. Again, you undertake this at your own risk. However, this has worked for four people now with no failures. Reporting that you've had success or adding Thanks wouldn't go amiss.

Please feel free to PM me if you have any problems so that we can keep this thread to reporting people with the issue and any progress in getting it officially resolved. If there are any corrections that need to be made to the above for the benefit of other users, then I'll do so over time.
schnide is offline  
Last edited by schnide; September 16th, 2011 at 10:26 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to schnide For This Useful Post:
clubber1974 (September 19th, 2011), Frannybobs (September 18th, 2011), ianmk4 (September 29th, 2011), mike2777 (September 16th, 2011), sj_4x4 (September 16th, 2011), solorize (September 16th, 2011), Winchy (September 26th, 2011)
Old September 16th, 2011, 08:48 AM   #245 (permalink)
New Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by solorize View Post
This indeed would be good news;

1. If it does materialise.

2. If it actually fixes all these problems we are suffering with.

But in the mean time we are all still having to suffer with phones that don't work.
agreed, IF it materialises, happy days, otherwise they've already quite clearly told me to get straight back onto them to discuss a replacement. (hopefully they've noted that on their systems, otherwise i'll be sending them to find the recorded call, haha)

but yes, more importantly, they said they werent aware of the problem or the reason for the update (which they said was called 'mango' - who knows why) but 'perhaps it was to solve the issues i'm (we're) having'

admittedly, its not a massively satisfactory response since in teh meantime our phones dont work, but the fact remains o2 and htc are aware of the issue (depending who you speak to), so one would like to think its the reason for the new version. at some point we have to trust them to try & fix this...
eddyodwyer is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old September 16th, 2011, 08:52 AM   #246 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Norwich, UK
Posts: 20
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 5
Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eddyodwyer View Post
but yes, more importantly, they said they werent aware of the problem or the reason for the update (which they said was called 'mango' - who knows why) but 'perhaps it was to solve the issues i'm (we're) having'
Sounds like they're getting confused with the Windows Phone update called Mango.
mark_baguley is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old September 16th, 2011, 09:38 AM   #247 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 731
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 27
Thanked 178 Times in 165 Posts
Default

@schnide

There's no point in trying to control and protect information on rooting and flashing ROMs from escaping a thread when it's already in the public domain.
notebook is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old September 16th, 2011, 09:39 AM   #248 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 731
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 27
Thanked 178 Times in 165 Posts
Default

Mango on an Android phone? Those O2 gurus really know their stuff.
notebook is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old September 16th, 2011, 09:43 AM   #249 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 731
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 27
Thanked 178 Times in 165 Posts
Default

This may interest a few here.

An official HTC radio/baseband version for the Desire S has been leaked - version 20.44.30.0821U_3821.08.00.24_M. Fingers crossed, it's likely to appear in an FOTA in the not to distant future.

Edit: Should have added that some are saying this fixes their signal loss problems.
notebook is offline  
Last edited by notebook; September 16th, 2011 at 10:51 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to notebook For This Useful Post:
schnide (September 16th, 2011), solorize (September 16th, 2011)
Old September 16th, 2011, 10:20 AM   #250 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Norwich, UK
Posts: 20
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 5
Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by notebook View Post
This may interest a few here.

An official HTC radio/baseband version for the Desire S has been leaked - version 20.44.30.0821U_3821.08.00.24_M. Fingers crossed, it's likely to appear in an FOTA in the not to distant future.
So that's from the Android 2.3.5 ROM with sense 3.0, I wonder how long that will take to become official. Does the Desire S have the hardware to support sense 3.0, I thought HTC had said it wouldn't run on single core phones.
mark_baguley is offline  
Reply With Quote
Reply

HTC Desire S
Current Rating:
Rate this Phone:

HTC's line of Desire phones have been wildly successful. There was the original HTC Desire, then the Desire HD and Desire Z, and now the HTC Desire S will continue the tradition of excellence. There aren't any sweeping changes from the orig... Read More



Go Back   Android Forums > Android Phones > HTC Desire S
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


LinkBacks (?)
LinkBack to this Thread: http://androidforums.com/htc-desire-s/396171-signal-drops-completely-htc-desire-s.html
Posted By For Type Date
O2 Forum :: View topic - HTC Desire S Firmware Update 1.47 206.2 ISSUES This thread Refback February 10th, 2012 05:53 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:13 AM.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.