I seriously doubt HTC is going to fix this. All of the most recent replies from them and Sprint indicate that their position is that the 30 fps cap is by design. Nothing to fix, according to them.
Sure who doesnt want some random benchmark to show the phone running at 60fps. Hey why stop at 60? Why not go to 120fps? Seriously. Who says 60 is a magical number?
Point being that we all want the best possible performance. However, please tell me what software will benefit from the fps raising to 60? And i dont mean a benchmarking app. I'm talking about a real application. Even a game.
So many nerds are now falling in love with the Droid X over these benchmark videos. Dont people realize that not a single game developer is going to write the code for a game that is optimized for the Droid X. Developers want to make sure everyone can buy their app. And to so that you have to optimize it for the common snapdragon level processor. Its the reality. The only difference between droid X and Evo is a benchmark performance. Real world applications wont run any different regardless of the benchmark score.
Put an iPhone and Evo side-by-side and you'll quickly notice the 30fps lag. I did this today and was blown away with how choppy my Evo is. Made me sad.
Last edited by coolguy949; June 26th, 2010 at 12:08 AM.
Put an iPhone and Evo side-by-side and you'll quickly notice the 30fps lag. I did this today and was blown away with how choppy my Evo is. Made me sad.
Its ok. Put them side by side and go to a flash site or try some multitasking or see how each react when a text comes in while doing something else etc...you really wont care about a split second "lag" so much anymore.
Wow that Droid X is fast. You gotta figure that if the Evo cap is released and OS is upgraded to 2.2, the Evo will only be as fast as the Nexus One in that test. The Droid is already looking awesome and it is only running on 2.1. That OMAP cpu and gpu destroy the snapdragon.
OMAP 3630 destroys Snapdragon 8650?
I think it's only fair to clarify that the OMAP isn't just a cpu+gpu.
OMAP 3640=ARM Cortex A8 plus (PowerVR SGX530 GPU plus C64x+ DSP core (likely at 430 MHz, not floating point, requires software for that)
The way that Android Central portrayed things included saying that the Droid X is faster because it has a separate GPU, implying the Snapdragon seems to lack a GPU - not so. And a lot of forum participants across the web are getting plus marks on their posts explaining that the Snapdragon also lacks a DSP module - also not so.
Snapdragon 8650=Scorpion plus (AMD Z430 GPU plus 600 MHz DSP core (floating point, if I'm not mistaken[*]))
Various forums claim that the Snapdragon is an ARM Cortex, A8 or maybe even A9, but it's only safe to say that it's Qualcomm proprietary with many similarities to A8 or (maybe even) A9 - EVO, many others besides Snapdragon - they're all ARMv7 (read: Cortex) variants. OMAP is TI's answer to ARMv7. Snapdragon is Qualcomm's answer to ARMv7.
Both of these processors - OMAP 3630 and Snapdragon 8650 - are remarkably advanced. They feature integration details that both TI and Qualcomm can be mighty proud of. Both offer state-of-the-art performance in mobile devices. The Nexus One's Snapdragon 8250 is HSPA only, whereas the 8650 is dual mode HSPA/EV-DO, so, a carrier difference only.
Benchmarking is a nearly lost art for the public - it must always be a suite of tests and while the temptation is there to aggregate the final result to a weighted number, doing so means nothing. On any number of the individual measurements for these integrated processors, I've no doubt that each will outneck the other. Neither one seems in an way whatsoever to be a slouch.
But - all we care about (righteously) are the end results in products.
As bedwetting over champing the competition for mindshare reaches tidal proportions, reviewers race to show how the Droid X outperforms sliced bread, including every ancient device, like the EVO.
In graphics. Because HTC put a governor on them. For whatever reason.
But not necessarily because of a raw processor deficiency - for us outsiders, it was done for reasons unknown - the very reason for this thread.
As it is, the Linpack tests showed the Droid X significantly faster than an EVO in MFLOPS. However, processor benchmarks seem to put the Snapdragon over the OMAP in Dhrystone MIPS.
While the video was fun for me too, I pretty much consider it a parlor game - just something we do while we all wait for Froyo and whatever updates we'll all incorporate in six months.
Quote:
You gotta figure that if the Evo cap is released and OS is upgraded to 2.2, the Evo will only be as fast as the Nexus One in that test.
ONLY as fast at that Nexus One?
Quote:
The Droid is already looking awesome and it is only running on 2.1.
I can't argue with your logic in any way whatsoever. Your conclusion that the Droid X is going to smoke Snapdragons with 2.2, projecting forward, makes sense.
But - I thought if we're going to make projections, maybe it's wise to compare Nexus One from 2.1 to 2.2 - the results are intesting:
The Droid X at 2.1 is showing 8 MFLOPS. At 2.1, the Nexus One started at around 7 MFLOPS in the LinPack test. Why then is the EVO only coming in at 5? Sense? Other overhead? [**]
If you look only at the video (timecode 0:35), you'd think that the OMAP is 37.5% faster than a Snapdragon in MFLOPS. It's not. It's 12.5% faster when comparing to non-impeded device.
By the way, I'm glad the OMAP has a higher MFLOPS (million floating point operations per second) score. As its DSP relies on software to get to floating point, it's gonna need it. And it's got it. So it's OK.
Now let's examine those Quadrant results. If we believe Android Central, the Droid X is running 2.1. And it's getting 2.2-like results already.
Out of the box.
A PowerVR SGX530 GPU plus a C64x+ 430 MHz DSP core is outrunning an AMD Z430 GPU plus a 600 MHz DSP core? By a factor of about 2.5 to 1?
And the Droid X was originally announced to be released with 2.2?
And Motorola did nothing under the hood 2.2-related for this 2.1 release?
And we know that for a fact before the thing is even released?
Either we're very smart, and the OMAP is such a Snapdragon killer that Qualcomm better start apologizing for their existence - or there's some shenanigans in there somewhere.
I'm gonna claim shenanigans. I could be wrong, however. I often am.
BTW, here are supporting links, I think it's only right to always include references:
[*]I don't have a link supporting that the Snapdragon DSP is floating-point capable, but I have seen that suggested - so take that with a grain of salt. Either way, it's referred to as a 6th generation DSP, so it's not like they just threw some junk in there.
By the way, I'm not claiming to be an expert or anything, but my DSP code was used by Cray to debug their compilers prior to running their benchmarks, and I was responsible for the benchmarking validation at the world's largest supercomputing site back in the day, so I've done just a little bit with benchmarking and thought my 2 cents might be a little bit helpful. Those were only like in the 130 to 800 MFLOP range, and not any graphics beyond the stuff we wrote for Tektronix outputs. These new processors are kinda way out there for me compared to that and so while I don't have any background in benchmarking this new stuff, maybe I have a little background in calling shenanigans on speed claims.
PS - A little note on triangles/second, a popular raw GPU benchmark.
(let's call a million triangles per second, Mtps)
The Snapdragon 8650 is rated at 22 Mtps.
The Palm Pre with a PowerVR SGX 530 is rated at 14 Mtps.
The iPhone 3GS with a PowerVR SGX 535 is rated at 28 Mtps.
The Samsung Galaxy S processor is said to do a whopping 80 to 90 Mtps (like a Snapdragon 8672 in that regard).
An SGX 530 at any speed doing so much better in graphics with that sort of benchmark?
[**] Huh. Whatdyaknow? On a lark, I ran Linpack on my stock/rooted rom that's not running too much bloatware - still, running Sense. I get 6.9 MFLOPS. Added in some bloatware, re-ran: I got just over 5. This just in: benchmarks should only reported with specified or controlled configurations. Alert the media. We could make a ground-breaking video and plaster it all over YouTube right there: Dramatic 25% speed increase on EVO PROVEN by benchmark! Watch the video!
I agree. Sounds like a bad feature trade-off to me. A good question to ask would be if the HDMI port as something Sprint specifically asked for or a random piece of bling HTC decided to add to see if there was any market interest.
The DroidX has an HDMI port also but is not caped at 30FPS
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I've seen numerous posts over at XDA where commenters report that they have since gotten a follow up response from HTC and Sprint saying it is now a hardware cap (because of the HDMI port) and cannot be fixed.
"As for the FPS cap, all he did was confirm that it was a hardware limitation and that they are aware that it has an impact on gaming performance. However, he also stated that they have reports of the FPS rate causing sluggish screen responses (which in all honesty, it doesn't) but they haven't been able to replicate....He did't address as to whether or not any changes would be made or not.."
One commenter reports that in their reply from Sprint they were told that they mention the fps cap in the owners manual (though I haven't found it).
Given these responses, it's a lost cause.
That said, the HDMI port on the EVO isn't necessarily a slapped-on afterthought. Per the geniuses and magicians at XDA, it's a Silicon Image Sil9022a:
It took several takes to get that video, and the Evo was playing HD content back all the meanwhile.
Also in that thread, a few of us were speculating that the 65 nm process technology would consume higher power and produce more heat. Close, no cigar - but very close.
Again, per XDA, there are several issues with the EVO's HDMI - for one, there's no sensing for an external device - or even a user-accessible on/off switch for it. That baby is always powered up, unlike the Droid X, if I read that correctly.
If true, then yeah, HTC has frequency-limited the chip for power and heat management.
So, yeah - the issue is really about power management, as we all suspected, and a big tip of the topper to the few, the proud, the XDA that seem to have proven that.
It all comes down to use cases. I'd be pretty happy with _most_ 720p _video_ at a steady 30 fps - despite 60 being an ATSC-supported mode.
Remember - Blu-ray players are at 24 Hz, matching 24 fps film source.
That's the justification HTC's using - if you notice, 29.97 fps is the NTSC standard.
I'm not ready to disbelieve a fix is inevitable. All we can do is stay tuned in for the latest results.
~~~~~~~~Just some stuff that might be interesting:
I also found NeoteriX's choice of test material quite interesting. You may have followed Buck from the beginning and already know the backstory, but if not -
I just wanted to add that I got a response from HTC directly about the cap issue...
"
Hi, I am Danielle and I would be happy to assist you today. Since the HTC EVO 4G employs a unique HDMI output to deliver video in HD quality to an external display, the hardware graphics driver interface uses significant resources for the HDMI output and therefore displays graphics at 30 frames per second on the integrated display. It’s important to keep in mind that content including most movies and television, are created to run at between 24 and 30 frames per second. We have found that some games may be impacted by this limitation. The HTC EVO 4G has been locked to 30 FPS. This should not present a major issue for most Android applications; however, you may have some issues with some 2D or 3D applications. The 30 FPS has been locked to enhance overall performance in the device. By lowering the FPS of the device the CPU works less. This increases the battery life of the device. The 30 FPS is set but we have decided to look into the possibility of overcoming this limitation by software changes. HTC plans to announce its findings when we complete our investigation. I thank you for contacting HTC and please feel free to send another email if you have any other questions. In order to improve our service, I would like to invite you to participate in a survey on the worldwide HTC website at HTC Online Survey. "
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They should either give people the option for a "Performance Mode" or something. Or maybe switch the integrated display back to 30 FPS when HDMI is active.
The problem is that 30FPS creates the perception of a slower device because of the choppiness. I hope they at least give people an option to switch between 60 and 30. It's not much to ask.
They should either give people the option for a "Performance Mode" or something. Or maybe switch the integrated display back to 30 FPS when HDMI is active.
My limited understanding from lurking at XDA is that they presently lack the ability to do just that very thing - sense when HDMI is active.
Quote:
The problem is that 30FPS creates the perception of a slower device because of the choppiness. I hope they at least give people an option to switch between 60 and 30. It's not much to ask.
Yeah, the web wiener sites aren't helping with that perception one iota.
Agree with the idea of an option - hopefully, that's what their investigation will reveal as the best way to go.
Myself, I'll never use it, but people shouldn't be chained to just what I like.
personally, I would rather their software developers dont waste their time on this for the small minority of people who care about this, and focus instead on getting FROYO released for this phone!!!
All those in favor, send email to HTC!!!!!
personally, I would rather their software developers dont waste their time on this for the small minority of people who care about this, and focus instead on getting FROYO released for this phone!!!
All those in favor, send email to HTC!!!!!
I expect the two won't have to be so mutually exclusive, but then, I don't know that for a fact.
personally, I would rather their software developers dont waste their time on this for the small minority of people who care about this, and focus instead on getting FROYO released for this phone!!!
All those in favor, send email to HTC!!!!!
I beg to differ. I have zero use for the hdmi out and more use for higher framerate over all. As good as FroYo sounds, it would still lag my menus, lag my touch display, and make the phone feel like the Hero. I'd much rather they give us what the phone should have been first before complicating things more with FroYo.
I actually would not mind just consant updates to tell you the truth lol. Of any kind.
I beg to differ. I have zero use for the hdmi out and more use for higher framerate over all. As good as FroYo sounds, it would still lag my menus, lag my touch display, and make the phone feel like the Hero. I'd much rather they give us what the phone should have been first before complicating things more with FroYo.
I actually would not mind just consant updates to tell you the truth lol. Of any kind.
I agree with your HDMI comments; not much use for it for the majority of people, until you can output things like web surfing and such..turning your TV into a HD output for the phone would have been REALLY Kewl.
From everything I have read about Froyo, it would eliminate all the lags you are talking about..not that I see the kind of "lags" you are talking about anyways with my current EVO. Although I have disabled Sense and use launcher Pro instead, so that might help
I agree with your HDMI comments; not much use for it for the majority of people, until you can output things like web surfing and such..turning your TV into a HD output for the phone would have been REALLY Kewl.
From everything I have read about Froyo, it would eliminate all the lags you are talking about..not that I see the kind of "lags" you are talking about anyways with my current EVO. Although I have disabled Sense and use launcher Pro instead, so that might help
For most people a working phone is just that, a working phone. If you ran menus and just flick pages or more evident scroll through the all apps menu it just herks and jerks its way through.
*although after the ota update it seems a bit snappier. Im going to test side by side with my sister's EVO later tonight to see.
Assuming the DroidX won't be capped, it should be faster according to the specs.
I'm with everyone else when I say screw the HDMI capability and give me back 60fps. HTC must be smoking something to release a reply saying that the human eye cant tell the difference. I hate it when CSRs reply with lame excuses thinking that tech heads won't know what they're talking about.
i totally agree with you, i could care less about HDMI on a phone
Droid X has the 1GHz TI OMAP 3640. 3630 is only 720MHz. I don't believe Motorola did any magic to get their benchmarks.
Yes, that was conceded in another thread, thank you.
Architecturally, all other things are the same.
This is still 1 GHz OMAP3 from a 45 nm process getting SGX540-like results.
The GPU is still the SGX530, but when looking further, another source is speculating that they've implemented some pipeline improvements.
I hope I'm wrong.
The Droid X is clearly a top performer. I hope that Droid X owners continue to get that 2.5x improvement over other phones when 2.2 comes out. That'll put their Quadrant results at 3000 or better while others are getting in the 1000~1700 range.
Last edited by EarlyMon; June 28th, 2010 at 11:49 PM.
Assuming the DroidX won't be capped, it should be faster according to the specs.
I'm with everyone else when I say screw the HDMI capability and give me back 60fps. HTC must be smoking something to release a reply saying that the human eye cant tell the difference. I hate it when CSRs reply with lame excuses thinking that tech heads won't know what they're talking about.
Seriously, if we weren't technically savvy we would own an iphone.
Benchmark doesn't mean a thing. My MOTO Droid was benchmarching above the nexus on 2.2 and was still slower than this device. The point is the phone is lacking. It is obviously slower than my moto droid (graphics wise) when it should have been twice the phone. This must be fixed. If xda can do it then so can htc.
power geeks want it all. for the casual user, who are happy enjoy flawless video playback and play lite graphical games from gameloft are happy. the hardcore users are pretty much a minority. the selling point of the phone wasn't even its graphical capabilities. get a psp for games.
When it lags so much u miss a turn on a racing game. That's bad. just because u don't play on the device doesn't mean u can speak for everyone or say get another device. Go get a MOTO razor if u just wanna phone. I want something that does EVERYTHING!
For those of you who say you don't care, or the 30fps doesn't matter: It ABSOLUTELY does make a difference in scrolling, menus, browsing, and other day-to-day 2d applications.
HTC is lying if they maintain the fps limit is tied to HDMI, period.
PS I do not play games on mine, but the difference between the gimped mode (HtC kernel) and god mode (XDA kernel) is staggering in 2d.
I see this as a non issue. 30fps does not effect the video quality of this phone. Remember, this is a cell phone, not your home entertainment system.
I would recommend anyone that is having a problem with this to shop another phone and/or carrier. This is a phone, not a high definition video player, DVD or Blu-Ray player, but simply a top end telephone with multi-media capibiities.
I don't agree with this statement. If I wanted to just buy a phone I wouldn't have exhaustively searched for the most powerful android device on the market. I would have gotten a free Nokia.
I don't agree with this statement. If I wanted to just buy a phone I wouldn't have exhaustively searched for the most powerful android device on the market. I would have gotten a free Nokia.
EXACTLY!
The worst part is it can be done so it should be done!
Well it's been confirmed that Froyo is coming to the Evo soon, I'm confused, won't that fix the problem and /thread?
Sadly I dont think so. On unless Rom the phone is blazing fast. Fps issue is still there. I think this is specific to this phone so htc has to be the one to fix it...
For those of you who say you don't care, or the 30fps doesn't matter: It ABSOLUTELY does make a difference in scrolling, menus, browsing, and other day-to-day 2d applications.
HTC is lying if they maintain the fps limit is tied to HDMI, period.
PS I do not play games on mine, but the difference between the gimped mode (HtC kernel) and god mode (XDA kernel) is staggering in 2d.
I think this is one of those scenarios when 1 uninformed person makes a statement, and HTC follows along in an attempt to not look stupid. Thanks to XDA, we know what the phone can really do, and it is NOT limited by hardware like they stated. And looking at that video, running at a higher FPS indeed DOES improve the phone by leaps and bounds. Yeah it was OC'd, but that doesn't have much of an effect on those types of graphics tests.
Thumbs up to XDA, that community never ceases to impress me.
"and the one thing you want to complain about is the not-so-smooth scrolling of screens when you connect the HDMI port to another monitor or display?"
I think the moron who wrote that article should be fired for being stupid! In the end he writes that we are over reacting that when the device is hooked up to the hdmi cable that it limits the device to 30fps. What the moron doesn't seem to get is it works the same way without being hooked up through the cable.
I hate dumb people! Plus Mark looks like a girl!
Last edited by eric3316; July 7th, 2010 at 05:10 PM.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eric3316
"and the one thing you want to complain about is the not-so-smooth scrolling of screens when you connect the HDMI port to another monitor or display?"
I think the moron who wrote that article should be fired for being stupid! In the end he writes that we are over reacting that when the device is hooked up to the hdmi cable that it limits the device to 30fps. What the moron doesn't seem to get is it works the same way without being hooked up through the cable.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redninja
i think not having a gpu is what is causing the choppiness...
Sorry but the snapdragon processor has an onborad gpu. Just look at the Incredible or the Nexus 1. Same processor but no cap with silky smooth scrolling.
Sorry but the snapdragon processor has an onborad gpu. Just look at the Incredible or the Nexus 1. Same processor but no cap with silky smooth scrolling.
yeah your right, i thought i read awhile back that it didnt have it so games would suck. Sad though that games on my year old pre blows the evo out the water...ah well, hopefully it will get remedied one way or another.
"and the one thing you want to complain about is the not-so-smooth scrolling of screens when you connect the HDMI port to another monitor or display?"
I think the moron who wrote that article should be fired for being stupid! In the end he writes that we are over reacting that when the device is hooked up to the hdmi cable that it limits the device to 30fps. What the moron doesn't seem to get is it works the same way without being hooked up through the cable.
I hate dumb people! Plus Mark looks like a girl!
Worse was his assertion that it's all ok - HDMI somehow throttles anything over 24 or 30 fps on most TVs to something lower.
1. There happens to be full set of standards and specs for HDMI.
2. I am quite certain that not one reputable TV has ever done that. Ever. It really speaks volumes about his ignorance.
720p/60Hz (read: 60 fps) over DVI - had that over 7 years ago - 720p/60Hz over HDMI - have that today on two sets, no problem.
What a dolt.
BTW - In case no one's noticed - he's giving the same excuse as news that was published weeks ago at XDA.
That's besides the point - once he got stoopid, I discounted every word.
Re: Htc releasing firmware update for 30FPS cap... let's be more proactive!
Well, I'm probably going to start flooding HTC's forum tomorrow with topics all stating this. I plan to get at least 30 tomorrow before I pass out once I get back from work.
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Here was my response from HTC about the problem.
Quote:
Thank you for your response. You may look around to see if there are any programs you can download to remove this cap. However, HTC will not condone the use of any third party programs. Use any you may find at your own discretion.
How nice of them. Guess that's saying to go root your phone to overcome our limitation though we won't condone that sort of action.
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They sent me a link to a survey to rate my experience with the help. So, I answered.
Quote:
My inquiry to HTC was in relation to the 30FPS cap for the HTC EVO. I have given my business to HTC for my last two mobile devices, and my enthusiasm for the Hero was enough for my whole family to get one as well.
I find the response that the FPS cap was constrained by the HDMI port ludicrous and insulting. The Motorola DroidX possesses one as well and does not experience this. Additionally, it's a widely known fact that developers have been able to break the cap and I've witnessed videos of the EVO reaching up to 57 FPS. At this point I can only imagine that this is a cost/benefit issue for HTC to release an update as opposed to developing a new phone. I don't have high hopes for seeing the Froyo 2.2 update before Christmas, because like I said I owned a Hero and was burned by the nonsense of being teased for 6 months with hints of an update. The "Sense UI" is not more valuable than Froyo, and we should have an option to update to 2.2 vanilla or wait for the Sense-wrapped 2.2.
I expect to be contacted about this, because currently I am investigating other manufacturers for my next android phone on Sprint. It is incredibly disappointing to put my HTC Hero side by side with my Evo and see that the former has smoother performance than my new, expensive phone that I purchased at FULL RETAIL that has double the hardware specs. I also hope that the Sense UI is dropped completely following the 3.0 Gingerbread update as the skin will be redundant and only serves to promote fragmentation and lag on the operating system updates.
When Sprint announced their first ever 4G handset at CTIA in March 2010, they dropped a bombshell on the mobile world. The HTC Evo 4G is a device that introduces a lot of firsts when compared to other North American handsets. This is the first Andr... Read More
