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Old June 29th, 2010, 12:44 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Evo blowing past the normal 30 FPS!

YouTube - Evo Godmode

This is a hacked kernel, Fresh 0.3, and SetCPU running @ 1.19ghz. The cameras don't work, but everything else is stupid fast and stable.

This is what the EVO WILL BE when XDA Devs are done. It's really too bad HTC released such a gimped device; fortunately, the opensource developers are all over it and they're making a measurable difference.

Imagine what these folks will do when the Froyo source is released.

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Old June 29th, 2010, 01:05 AM   #2 (permalink)
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i hate to be a debbie downer because i love this phone...but the more 'real world' testing they did only showed around 14 and then 28 FPS on the last two demos running those graphics intensive tests. Have those been run on the DroidX and what does it score? 50 FPS on a moving ball is...just not quite what I had hoped.
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Old June 29th, 2010, 01:13 AM   #3 (permalink)
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how did you install this kernel?
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Old June 29th, 2010, 01:16 AM   #4 (permalink)
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powerdrill, like everyone else does, sheesh
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Old June 29th, 2010, 01:37 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Sorry, but a bit off topic...

What kind of case is that in the video? Awesome vid though!
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Old June 29th, 2010, 01:47 AM   #6 (permalink)
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on the vid its 14.2fps on nena.
the benchmark of droidx,nexus (froyo), and evo4: 22.9fps, 11.3, 10.3
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Old June 29th, 2010, 01:49 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MinimalistChris View Post
What kind of case is that in the video?

It's a Chinese case of some sort, i found them at one of those cell phone kiosks they have in the mall today for 14.99. It's a nice case aesthetically, but it doesnt really offer up protection if you were to drop the phone
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Old June 29th, 2010, 01:50 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by cabbie View Post
i hate to be a debbie downer because i love this phone...but the more 'real world' testing they did only showed around 14 and then 28 FPS on the last two demos running those graphics intensive tests. Have those been run on the DroidX and what does it score? 50 FPS on a moving ball is...just not quite what I had hoped.
Keep in mind, the kernel enabling these speeds is hacked. It's really more a proof of concept at this point to show the EVO can exceed the 30fps limit imposed by HTC.

With the exception of Linpack running on the Nexus one with Froyo, the EVO and N1 are turning in very similar speeds. The Droid-X does really well with its GPU, but not as good on Linpack.

The developers are hard at work trying to find the root of the FPS cap. When the kernel source comes out, and when they figure out what's really causing the cap, stand-by.

J

PS For those interested in the case: Search "htc evo red rubberized" on eBay and you should find it for ~ $6 shipped.
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Old June 29th, 2010, 01:54 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by droidSPARX View Post
on the vid its 14.2fps on nena.
the benchmark of droidx,nexus (froyo), and evo4: 22.9fps, 11.3, 10.3
Edit: Yup. That's right. My EVO outperformed the N1 running Froyo on that test.
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Old June 29th, 2010, 02:06 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by reemas View Post
how did you install this kernel?
[WIP] Higher framerate on Novatek panels | Kernel inside - xda-developers

Use it at your own risk. You can *severely* mess up your phone if you're not comfortable with the tools required to do this.
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Old June 29th, 2010, 02:52 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Damn....damn HTC :\
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Old June 29th, 2010, 09:37 AM   #12 (permalink)
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FWIW: This hack has been a little tough on the battery. I dropped 30% overnight with radios off. I'll do a little tweaking with cpu freqs to see if I can get it more manageable.
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Old June 29th, 2010, 11:26 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habitual.line.stepper View Post
It's a Chinese case of some sort, i found them at one of those cell phone kiosks they have in the mall today for 14.99. It's a nice case aesthetically, but it doesnt really offer up protection if you were to drop the phone
I have the same case from 3gaccessory.com (via ebay) ordered two one for me one for the wife, and it cost ~$10 after shipping for both.
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Old June 29th, 2010, 04:39 PM   #14 (permalink)
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What would the FPS be if you ran the thing at stock clock? I OC my computer religiously but I am not on the same page when it comes to my phone... Nor would the phone have the battery capacity to make it worth while...
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Old June 29th, 2010, 05:15 PM   #15 (permalink)
 
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Shame on htc?

I was swiping my evo when he was doing his, guess what, no difference.

There is zero stall in the changing screens. People just love to complain.

Oh the last two test where priceless.

28fps, oh my god htc is horrible for capping it at 30.
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Old June 29th, 2010, 06:03 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by KAuss View Post
What would the FPS be if you ran the thing at stock clock? I OC my computer religiously but I am not on the same page when it comes to my phone... Nor would the phone have the battery capacity to make it worth while...
Linpack drops to 6.7MFLOPS at stock clock.
No change in gears (expected).
Nena and Neocore will experience the larger differences due to 3d.
Neocore: 26.6
Nena: 10

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverOfIce View Post
Shame on htc?

I was swiping my evo when he was doing his, guess what, no difference.
There is zero stall in the changing screens. People just love to complain.
There is no "speed" difference in swiping the screen, it's how the content on the screen refreshes. At 50fps, there is a very visible difference in the smoothness of motion. I have 5 different ROMs stored on SD including Froyo v8 which gets 39MFLOPS and 30fps, and it's still not as smooth as this kernel.


Quote:
Oh the last two test where priceless. 28fps, oh my god htc is horrible for capping it at 30.
The last two were 3D tests. Those are the fps you can expect in an OpenGL game and are far different than what you experience in 2D in the "desktop". fps2d shows a 70% improvement in 2d frame rates. If you think that's a petty gripe, fine. I do not. This phone is gimped, and it's non-trivial. I am flashing a stock kernel ATM and will post the 2d and 3d results with nothing changed but the kernel.

J
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Old June 29th, 2010, 06:24 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by RiverOfIce View Post
Shame on htc?

I was swiping my evo when he was doing his, guess what, no difference.

There is zero stall in the changing screens. People just love to complain.

Oh the last two test where priceless.

28fps, oh my god htc is horrible for capping it at 30.
You sound like you have no idea what you are talking about.
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Old June 29th, 2010, 06:29 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Ok, I installed a standard Fresh 0.3 ROM and here are the results:

Code:
          Hacked       Stock
2D
Gears     50fps        30fps/3.64 70% improvement
fps2d     50fps        30fps/7.76 70% improvement

3D
Nena      14.2         10.2       40% improvement over stock
Neo       27.3         24.9       10% improvement over stock

CPU
Linpack   8.2M/F       6.5M/F     26% improvement over stock** 

**due to overclocking, not FPS hack.
Average improvement across all tests: 43.2%
Average improvement ignoring Gears or fps2d: 36.5%

Yes, HTC should be ashamed. Why? Because a phone they made which is already a year old beats the EVO running virtually the same hardware. They have intentionally mitigated the end user experience, and regardless if fps is perceptible to you, it is very real to those who know what they're looking for.
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Old June 29th, 2010, 06:45 PM   #19 (permalink)
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If htc lifts the 30fps, why would you buy the next htc phone. They hold back to make sure you keep coming back for more IMO. I know they said it's because of battery saving they decided to do that, but I think that's a bunch of crap. There was a behind the scenes reason why they stopped at 30fps. Then they said it was a hardware limitation but yet this kernel allows this to work. Come one HTC, stop playing us for dumb.
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Old June 29th, 2010, 06:46 PM   #20 (permalink)
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After re-flashing the non-hacked kernel, I can really feel the difference now. If you're not sure what all the fps thing is about, the best observation I can make is this:

With the stock kernel, when I swipe or scroll, I can see vertical distortion as I look at the line of pixels on a vertical edge. As the desktop image moves, the re-paint makes the image blur slightly. With the hacked kernel, the screen is fluid, like liquid. There is absolutely no vertical distortion and the image remains crystal clear during all movements.
Code:
Stock        Hacked
|               |
|               | 
|               |
 |              |
 |              |
 |              |
I know this seems trivial, but the thing I think so many are upset about is that the hardware clearly supports the higher fps rate and the developers at XDA were able to make a fairly minor change to the board files to prove this out. It's hard to comprehend why HTC would intentionally inhibit performance. And they certainly didn't advertise on the box: "30fps video performance cap"

BTW: If you haven't seen the androidcentral.com comparison between the DroidX, N1, and EVO, go watch. Our phone performs the worst out of all of them in a big way. YouTube - Droid X benchmark tests
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Old June 29th, 2010, 07:00 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Droidone View Post
If htc lifts the 30fps, why would you buy the next htc phone. They hold back to make sure you keep coming back for more IMO. I know they said it's because of battery saving they decided to do that, but I think that's a bunch of crap. There was a behind the scenes reason why they stopped at 30fps. Then they said it was a hardware limitation but yet this kernel allows this to work. Come one HTC, stop playing us for dumb.
I don't know, I would think that running at 60fps the battery would drain much quicker, and I THINK they weren't lying in that statement (correct me if im wrong, I would love to know for sure, maybe jmxp69 can clear this up). But I wish HTC would at least allow us to choose if we want to stay at 30fps or if we want to go up to "60fps", you know like have a "Standard Performance" and a "Higher Performance" as options.
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Old June 29th, 2010, 07:05 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I wonder if stock was 50fps, someone would create a rom that capped the fps to 30 to increase battery life, lol
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Old June 29th, 2010, 07:12 PM   #23 (permalink)
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During the kernel hack testing, the devs found that with the screen off, the fps rate skyrocketed which is why they're focusing on the panel boardfiles. That said, it's unlikely a battery related issue because if it were, they would have prohibited the GPU from generating anything above 30fps.

An XDA member even has an e-mail from a supposed HTC Exec by the name of Keith Nowak who dispelled the battery myth. Source: Reply from Keith Nowak about the 30FPS issue - xda-developers;however, he maintains there is a link between fps capabilities of the panels and HDMI:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Nowak
"The HDMI output that delivers HD content is, as you would expect, very resource intense, and as such, puts a limit on the output that can be used for the main display."
WRONG

Further, he goes on to say,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Nowak
"We have seen reports of a hack that purports to “fix” this, but after investigation, it turns out that this hack is simply allowing data to be pushed through the display interface at a higher speed than it can reasonably handle – resulting in, as you would expect, a choppy, unacceptable image of very poor quality."
WRONG

Obviously, he hasn't seen my video....

At the moment, I have no reason to believe anything HTC says on the matter until somebody comes clean, offers the kernel source, and lets the developers sort it out.

WRT my personal experience with the battery, it's no worse than stock so far. I had some troubles the first night dropping 30%, but I solved that by lowering the min/max to stock with SetCPU. I got much better battery performance with flipz' ROM because he really goes out of his way to optimize battery.

So, short answer, I don't believe battery has anything to do with it.
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Old June 29th, 2010, 07:21 PM   #24 (permalink)
 
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I give up, time and again this has been proven a non issue. There is not a thing that 30 fps would do better then 50. Nothing.

Complaining about this is like saying, car x max speed is 190 mph car y 200 mph.

The average user is not going to go past 190mph, a lot of video games on xbox and ps3 do not go pass 30fps.

Now 200mph is really nice, but for most people 100mph is ok.

I do not expect to very play video games on a phone. Just dont. The evo is insane fast when it comes to actually using the phone.

But of course I do not know what I am talking about. Of course.

So lets see what the experts in phones say. Let us go to one of the best reviewers of phone out there.

Phone scoop.

YouTube - HTC EVO 4G Review

You can start the software at 2:08.

Were he start the software section by saying that it is fast.

So if you want to go 200mph, when the 190 is ok by most people.

I swear you can not try around here.
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Old June 29th, 2010, 07:36 PM   #25 (permalink)
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roi this is prbly the only thing i will not agree with you on. most games dont go beyond 30 fps please tell me your joking the video game industry standard for all games is 60 fps. you cant use motion blur in video games that constantly change. im a high end pc gamer and there is a massive difference between 30 and 60 because on is actually pushing 60 the other is a scaled 30
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Old June 29th, 2010, 08:04 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I don't use my phone for games. I could care less. But you are dead wrong about usability in 2d. a 70% performance makes a huge difference. Facts are facts.

You are aware that the HTC Hero outperforms the Evo in 2d performance right?
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Old June 29th, 2010, 08:19 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverOfIce View Post
Were he start the software section by saying that it is fast.
So if you want to go 200mph, when the 190 is ok by most people.
Pretty thorough review: "It's fast." Did you see the real comparison I posted above where software designed to measure performance showed the Evo getting it's ass kicked by a one year old phone?

Honestly, you're off the mark. The fps issue has zero to do with how fast apps open. It has everything to do with the way the phone responds on the screen. Rarely have I seen better proof of what we're talking about here than in that video. The screen transitions looked like ass.

If it doesn't matter to you, then why do you bother reading and commenting on threads about the issue? Obviously the 15+ developers trying to crack this on XDA must be clueless and totally wasting their time because some phonescoop review says, "it's fast."

Believe what you want. This phone has far more to offer when people who actually know what they're doing and what they're talking about enable it to perform to spec.

I'm done responding to you...
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Old June 29th, 2010, 08:30 PM   #28 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drksilenc View Post
roi this is prbly the only thing i will not agree with you on. most games dont go beyond 30 fps please tell me your joking the video game industry standard for all games is 60 fps. you cant use motion blur in video games that constantly change. im a high end pc gamer and there is a massive difference between 30 and 60 because on is actually pushing 60 the other is a scaled 30
You want a quick off the top of my head list for consoles?


Gears of War 3 capped at 30fps.
Prey xbox360 capped at 30fps
Alan wake is capped at 30fps r
PGR 4 is capped at 30fps
Resistance 2 capped at 30fps
Halo 3 capped at 30fps
Unreal Tournament 3 capped at 30fps
Mass Effect 2 capped at 30 fps
Madden 08 ps3 capped at 30fps
Bioshock 1/2 capped at 30fps (almost very game that bioware produces)
GTA4 capped at 30 fps
Uncharted 2 capped at 30fps

I do not know anything but there is some really fun games, including one of my favorites in there, gta iv. I do not play consoles though and I do not know anything.
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Old June 29th, 2010, 09:07 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmxp69 View Post
[/code]I know this seems trivial, but the thing I think so many are upset about is that the hardware clearly supports the higher fps rate and the developers at XDA were able to make a fairly minor change to the board files to prove this out. It's hard to comprehend why HTC would intentionally inhibit performance. And they certainly didn't advertise on the box: "30fps video performance cap"

BTW: If you haven't seen the androidcentral.com comparison between the DroidX, N1, and EVO, go watch. Our phone performs the worst out of all of them in a big way. YouTube - Droid X benchmark tests

I'm a little confused as to how you could post that your battery went down 30% overnight and still post this comment. Seems pretty clear cut to me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by White Sharingan View Post
I don't know, I would think that running at 60fps the battery would drain much quicker, and I THINK they weren't lying in that statement (correct me if im wrong, I would love to know for sure, maybe jmxp69 can clear this up). But I wish HTC would at least allow us to choose if we want to stay at 30fps or if we want to go up to "60fps", you know like have a "Standard Performance" and a "Higher Performance" as options.
Now that is a great idea, maybe a fps toggle. I'd definitely accept that.





To be honest I don't know what some of you guys are talking about. Are you honestly complaining that if you focus your eyes on the images as they leave out of or come into a screen as you swipe across that they aren't crystal clear. That's almost obsurd, you'd have to be staring at them to notice. I can almost promise you there is less than 1% of the population that will see (and even less that will care) what you guys are talking about with this FPS issue. And if 30% overnight (while chillin) battery drain on an already questionable battery life is the cost, it's not worth it to me.

Furthermore I would bet that a far less number of people would even care about this if you guys weren't making such a big deal of it.

In fact most of the people complaining about it should just hack the phone. I'm far less concerned about FPS as I am about the camera.
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Old June 29th, 2010, 09:11 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I had performance mode set in setCPU which kept the cpu pegged at full tilt all night. I've since disabled OC and I'm back to stock discharge rates. The camera will be sorted out as soon as HTC releases the kernel source as they're obligated to do.

Quote:
To be honest I don't know what some of you guys are talking about.
Clearly.
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Old June 29th, 2010, 09:23 PM   #31 (permalink)
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To be honest I don't know what some of you guys are talking about.
Clearly.
haha, zing. really though, for those of you who are not aware of the issue, or the difference, you should compare it to a phone that has really smooth scrolling. once you do, you'll be shocked at what you're "not seeing."

furthermore, not a lot of NEW smartphones don't have this issue. so why be a step behind?
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Old June 29th, 2010, 09:30 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Froyo v8 results:

fps2d: 28/10.27
Linpack: 39.513 <---NICE!
Neocore: failed installation
Nena: 10.3

Huge disappointment. Even with the CPU unleashed due to JIT @ 4.8x processing results, Nena is just as constrained as in 2.1 and the jitter was painfully obvious in that test because video output was a massive bottleneck.

I'm keeping my EVO because I know there's light at the end of the tunnel with XDA folks on this, but it really is a crappy result with a significantly faster OS.
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Old June 29th, 2010, 09:31 PM   #33 (permalink)
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I can almost promise you there is less than 1% of the population that will see (and even less that will care) what you guys are talking about with this FPS issue.
How many people have a smart phone? How many people have an Android phone? How many people care enough about their phone to go to an internet forum dedicated to it? How many people post in a thread on an issue they don't care about on an internet forum dedicated to their phone?

If you don't think it's a big deal, don't post in the thread. I'm not posting in the theme threads where they are trying to make everything sparkly or shiny or laced with polka dots. I couldn't care less about themes and trying to make my phone look hip. But I'm not in those thread telling them that they are all stupid and that no one needs those themes.

Lets not call it an FPS issue. I think that is problem number one. The name confuses people. It is a screen painting issue. The faster you can repaint the screen every time something changes, the smoother everything will be. How smooth is smooth enough? Only you can decide. Some people care about their gaming performance. Some people care about how smooth it is when you scroll a list of items or a web page or do a pinch and zoom on anything. Other people don't. If you want an example of what some of these people are shooting for, use an iPhone. There is no Android phone out there that is as smooth when it comes to moving items around the screen as an iPhone. Apple has invested a lot of effort into making their phone this smooth, so obviously, that is a feature that some segment of the population cares about. And considering the magnitude of popularity of the iPhone versus any Android phone, I'd say that just might be more than 1% of the population.
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Old June 29th, 2010, 09:53 PM   #34 (permalink)
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I think we need to call this the retina per second issue...

If we use magical words maybe people would understand?

P.S. I can't stand any games at 30FPS, that's why my PS3 collects dust and my computer runs everything at 1680x1050 with full settings on every game I play > 60FPS...

I also play games on my phone... Why? Cause I didn't spend $200 on a phone with sub par phone functions to use it as a phone... I had one of those before I upgraded
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Old June 29th, 2010, 09:56 PM   #35 (permalink)
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This thread is pretty funny simply because of the people who don't even understand how FPS affects the phone yet tell us to stop complaining, or claim we're expecting too much if we want our phone to not be out performed graphically by the hero, a year old phone by the same manufacturer.
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Old June 29th, 2010, 10:00 PM   #36 (permalink)
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How many people have a smart phone? How many people have an Android phone? How many people care enough about their phone to go to an internet forum dedicated to it? How many people post in a thread on an issue they don't care about on an internet forum dedicated to their phone?


Millions of people have Smart Phones/Android phones and the ratios still don't look good bud. Not many people will care about the FPS, don't act like the ratios change much, the percentile is now .0000009% instead of .00000000000000009%. That should really sway HTC to make a move.

Still working low on forum to people with smart phone ratios. Just not that common.

Actually your last question is probably the highest percentage question you asked, go figure. It's an opinion forum, full of opinions. I do care that it's an issue but purely from the aspect that the other phones have it, but it's not that big of a deal to me, or most of the people here.

Care to take a poll and test that theory? How about who would rather have their camera shoot better video or the FPS fixed.
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Old June 29th, 2010, 10:02 PM   #37 (permalink)
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I think the only gripe I had is that there was no mention of this unforeseen issue before hand... None of the reviewers manage to bother with any benchmarking, they basically gone with "does this thing turn on?" and "how snappy is it?" I think the EVO scored an 8.579 on snappy... I was looking for 7.352... So I was sold...

Anywho, if I went into a Ferrari dealer, and found out only after purchase my $250K ride goes 65MPH max even though it should easily handle 160MPH easy with 500HP under the hood, I'd be pretty upset even if I would NEVER go 160MPH...

It's the principle sometimes, but in this reality, I WOULD use 60fps... Not a little, but a LOT!!!

If I had a Ferrari, be dang sure I would be going 185MPH given the road course... Most people will say, "yeah you can still get from point A to point B going 65 and all legal too!!!"

Well I'd say to them, then whey did I spend $250K on a Ferrari when a 15K Scion would of done the trick? At 75MPH at that! LOL...
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Old June 29th, 2010, 10:03 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by heavychevy View Post


Millions of people have Smart Phones/Android phones and the ratios still don't look good bud. Not many people will care about the FPS, don't act like the ratios change much, the percentile is now .0000009% instead of .00000000000000009%. That should really sway HTC to make a move.

Still working low on forum to people with smart phone ratios. Just not that common.

Actually your last question is probably the highest percentage question you asked, go figure. It's an opinion forum, full of opinions. I do care that it's an issue but purely from the aspect that the other phones have it, but it's not that big of a deal to me, or most of the people here.

Care to take a poll and test that theory? How about who would rather have their camera shoot better video or the FPS fixed.
Um, I would like to have both?

Why would I settle for one?
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Old June 29th, 2010, 10:04 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by heavychevy View Post


Millions of people have Smart Phones/Android phones and the ratios still don't look good bud. Not many people will care about the FPS, don't act like the ratios change much, the percentile is now .0000009% instead of .00000000000000009%. That should really sway HTC to make a move.

Still working low on forum to people with smart phone ratios. Just not that common.

Actually your last question is probably the highest percentage question you asked, go figure. It's an opinion forum, full of opinions. I do care that it's an issue but purely from the aspect that the other phones have it, but it's not that big of a deal to me, or most of the people here.

Care to take a poll and test that theory? How about who would rather have their camera shoot better video or the FPS fixed.
You might want to consider rereading my post. I don't think it means what you think it means.
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Old June 29th, 2010, 10:06 PM   #40 (permalink)
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HTC didn't hide any truths about the cameras:

8mp rear - check
1.3mp front - check
720p capture - check

Quality? Subjective. DLSR? No.

30fps cap on a phone easily able to produce 60? "Let's not mention that."
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Old June 29th, 2010, 10:11 PM   #41 (permalink)
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They even said the 720P is in 24FPS only RIGHT OUT THE GATE!!!

So people like me who bought the phone and seeing what the results ended up being aren't too displeased... Noah even did a side by side of the three latest phone during his video tests...

Although the EVO camera came out way sharper, I found the contrast to be way out of whack... You can't see Noah's eyes in his own forehead shadow, nor the trees with any detail...

STILL... When I got my phone, it worked basically up to par and I had fully understood it before hand...

So when the "other phone" came out, everyone here already pretty much knew the video performance would be overtaken easily with said phone... I think everyone was pretty much OK with that, but had "wishful thinking" of it improving...

However, I really think HTC should of let the cat out the bag to begin with... And if they did, I wonder how many people would switch their minds about getting into the phone before looking at others? I'm sure a LOT of us would be with the Incredible (less die hard Sprint fans, and people who want a 4.3" screen, and I'm one of them...)

I think the buzz around the phone would of increased, but with all the wrong reasons if this little tid bit were to leak out a week before launch...
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Old June 30th, 2010, 12:54 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by RiverOfIce View Post
You want a quick off the top of my head list for consoles?


Gears of War 3 capped at 30fps.
Prey xbox360 capped at 30fps
Alan wake is capped at 30fps r
PGR 4 is capped at 30fps
Resistance 2 capped at 30fps
Halo 3 capped at 30fps
Unreal Tournament 3 capped at 30fps
Mass Effect 2 capped at 30 fps
Madden 08 ps3 capped at 30fps
Bioshock 1/2 capped at 30fps (almost very game that bioware produces)
GTA4 capped at 30 fps
Uncharted 2 capped at 30fps

I do not know anything but there is some really fun games, including one of my favorites in there, gta iv. I do not play consoles though and I do not know anything.
i respect your input on this forum but your contributions to this issue only remind me of:



Im a noob phone hobbyist, but it doesnt take someone like me, that followed the development of this phone from CTIA to new york to sitting out in front of a sprint store at 4 am on launch day to buy the phone for full price, to be righteously pissed its capped below its potential performance. I don't know if you get it or not but people purchased a phone, that as many blogs described...'htc threw everything and the kitchen sink into it' as far as specs go, to find out it got hamstrung. This was branded over and over again as the "monster" spec phone. Now, anyone who spends more than 5 minutes researching this phone is going to discover massive issues with it, including FPS.

The condescension of saying "well, maybe you dont NEED it to perform at its potential, go at 190 instead of 200 lololololZORZ" is nothing but patronizing BS.

Like I said, I do read and consider your input into this forum but you are so off-base.
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Old June 30th, 2010, 01:32 AM   #43 (permalink)
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RiverOfIce is a spy from HTC sent to all forums, including ours, to try to get us off of this issue so HTC can try to find another excuse to not fix this. Ignore him. He is the new MBELL. He is useless, he knows nothing. Disregard any further shenanigans that he says.

FYI, I'm being serious about that, he knows nothing. He's here to either stir up the pot, or he's actually from HTC trying to 'side' with them.
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Old June 30th, 2010, 01:44 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Multi-touch visualizer comparison video on the way. This will perhaps be a more practical demonstration illustrating day-to-day 2d performance impacts.
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Old June 30th, 2010, 01:50 AM   #45 (permalink)
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I give up, time and again this has been proven a non issue. There is not a thing that 30 fps would do better then 50. Nothing.
I'm (as is probably most everyone else) fine thats it's of no interest to you, however, I dont understand how anyone (who actually understands what the differences are) could come to either one of those conclusions.

Not quite apples to apples, but your argument is similar to saying that a 120Hz panel does nothing better than a good ol 24/30 or 60

In any case the XDA guys are doing a great job and touting uniformed opinions into a thread like this only makes developers/testers not want to bother posting their results here.
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Old June 30th, 2010, 01:56 AM   #46 (permalink)
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I think the only gripe I had is that there was no mention of this unforeseen issue before hand... None of the reviewers manage to bother with any benchmarking, they basically gone with "does this thing turn on?" and "how snappy is it?" I think the EVO scored an 8.579 on snappy... I was looking for 7.352... So I was sold...

Anywho, if I went into a Ferrari dealer, and found out only after purchase my $250K ride goes 65MPH max even though it should easily handle 160MPH easy with 500HP under the hood, I'd be pretty upset even if I would NEVER go 160MPH...

It's the principle sometimes, but in this reality, I WOULD use 60fps... Not a little, but a LOT!!!

If I had a Ferrari, be dang sure I would be going 185MPH given the road course... Most people will say, "yeah you can still get from point A to point B going 65 and all legal too!!!"

Well I'd say to them, then whey did I spend $250K on a Ferrari when a 15K Scion would of done the trick? At 75MPH at that! LOL...
Uh-oh, don't get into cars, that's my thing.

Not quite the same, this is more like finding out the car won't go 160 without some wind noise. Something only the most picky will be annoyed with. Let's be honest FPS does not affect real performance. The videos still play fine, the screen still looks great, we are talking about nitpicky little things that have little bearing on the overall pictures.

Let's start over, I'm not exactly opposed to this as if 30-40-50-60 fps were available I'd be downloading the hell out of it, probably staring at the phone all day to get it. But I think it's being made to be more than it is. My only gripe is like you mentioned that the phone is being handicapped by the manufacturer (like GM putting crappy tires on their performance car the Z06) and therefore not releasing it's full potential resulting in some not exactly accurate comparisons. I would care a lot less if there weren't so many Droid X, Iphone and Samsung trolls here along with the people who act like this is the end of the world.

Now the camcorder on the other hand...... that's just wrong for them to give us a camcorder like that when it can be at least bearable in low light and most of the selling points of the phone have to do with Video. For this reason I'd move to get both done since they obviously haven't planned on releasing the phones full potential.
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Old June 30th, 2010, 02:38 AM   #47 (permalink)
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I fail to see how a phone that can process up to 60 fps but "limited" or "governed" to 30 fps is not alike a speed governor on a car?!?!?!

As said, going 160MPH and going 65MPH both get the job done, but I didn't buy a Ferrari to drive at Scion speeds...

As said, playing games at 60FPS and playing games at 30FPS both get the job done, (I actually find 30fps gaming as fail, and only hardware that can't handle it limit framerate...) but I didn't buy and EVO 4G to play games at HTC Hero speeds...

Catch my drift? No pun intended...

Wind noise is not something a car manufacturer even measures... Nor is there a governing body monitoring them in dB... So anyone buying a car would have no standard or expectation outside of "oh this car is quiet, or noisy..." That's like a phone reviewer saying this phone is "snappy..." That tells us NOTHING about performance... However, a top speed of a "sports car" is almost always released in hard MPH numbers and 0-60 times as well!!! To some even without reading these numbers can guesstimate how a car should perform... Just like a top of the line smart phone should work like the specs on paper suggest... Or at least on par with other phones using the SAME DANG HARDWARE!!!

If you have a super car nowadays and they top out at 85MPG to conserve gas... How stupid would said company look with a car like that? Did you really buy a sports car deemed super enough to be exotic to be green? Really?

Give me horsepower or give me death!!!
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Old June 30th, 2010, 02:49 AM   #48 (permalink)
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The speed of the phone is not in question here. THAT is why it's not a Ferrari going max 65mph because FPS isn't NEARLY on the same level as if the 1ghz processor was functioning at 512 mb speeds. That would be anarchy.

The phone still moves plenty fast, we are talking about the smoothness of it. Like your Ferrari idling or sounding like a Viper. It's really not the big deal you are trying to make it, the car (phone) is still just as fast as it would be, just not the same experience that it really has to offer.
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Old June 30th, 2010, 02:59 AM   #49 (permalink)
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The speed of the phone is not in question here. THAT is why it's not a Ferrari going max 65mph because FPS isn't NEARLY on the same level as if the 1ghz processor was functioning at 512 mb speeds. That would be anarchy.

The phone still moves plenty fast, we are talking about the smoothness of it. Like your Ferrari idling or sounding like a Viper. It's really not the big deal you are trying to make it, the car (phone) is still just as fast as it would be, just not the same experience that it really has to offer.
The speed is a factor... That's why benchmark tests on the EVO suck...

That's like your end result 1/4 time are the suck... Cause your 500HP Ferrari can't hit a trap speed past 65MPH...

I still don't see where this is coming from... 65MPH is still plenty fast... And highway travel safe... Still, that is not what a Ferrari was built for...

There are a TON of phones that can do 30FPS... None of which is a flagship phone... Is that remotely clear where the problem is?

In the examples of games with 30FPS... Games like 3D Homerun battle where extra frames would give you a better reading on the pitch... How does that not translate to better gaming results? I just don't figure...

You have to understand frame rate is a measurable thing, it is n't "smoothness" which is a subjective term...

Wind noise is "subjective" although "can be" measured in dB if needed...

MPH is a measurable term...

I paid for a 1ghz phone (500hp Ferrari), and expect it to play games at >30FPS... (>60MPH)...

How can you fit wind noise in that sentence? I'm just boggled...

P.S. I'm not mad or nothing, I just like a good healthy debate...
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Old June 30th, 2010, 03:15 AM   #50 (permalink)
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How do you change the color of the SENSE Ui on the bottom. The Phone tab.

Instead of being grey with strange bumps and sort, it's transparent. Because I would like to go back to Sense from LP. But the ugly tab on the bottom pushes me away.
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