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Old May 29th, 2011, 02:45 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Question Which power management app do y'all use? JuiceDefender or GreenPower?

Want to still be able to receive data when my apps call for syncing, but anything else that can help stretch my TB's battery I'm open to learning about


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Old May 29th, 2011, 03:59 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I use Green Power free. I set it up to:
1. Turn off the phone's mobile data connection whenever I turn on WiFi.
2. Turn off the mobile data connection when the screen goes off
- set to come back on every 30 minutes to update email, etc
3. If I want to keep the phone on at night, I have it turn off WiFi when the screen is off
- you can also set how frequently it comes back on to update email, etc

It really helps save battery life when the phone is not being used heavily, but nothing really saves battery life when your phone is in constant use.

There are lots of other settings that I don't bother with, just keep the stock settings. The paid version also has a night mode, but I think I accomplish more or less the same thing by turning on the WiFi management.
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Old May 29th, 2011, 04:12 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robrecht View Post
I use Green Power free. I set it up to:
1. Turn off the phone's mobile data connection whenever I turn on WiFi.
2. Turn off the mobile data connection when the screen goes off
- set to come back on every 30 minutes to update email, etc
3. If I want to keep the phone on at night, I have it turn off WiFi when the screen is off
- you can also set how frequently it comes back on to update email, etc

It really helps save battery life when the phone is not being used heavily, but nothing really saves battery life when your phone is in constant use.

There are lots of other settings that I don't bother with, just keep the stock settings. The paid version also has a night mode, but I think I accomplish more or less the same thing by turning on the WiFi management.
The phone doesnt do #1 on it's own? I assumed it did since the 3G/4G/1X symbol disappears when the wifi comes on.
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Old May 29th, 2011, 04:16 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I don't use either app...but I have trust issues
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Old May 29th, 2011, 04:17 PM   #5 (permalink)
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The phone doesnt do #1 on it's own? I assumed it did since the 3G/4G/1X symbol disappears when the wifi comes on.
Yes, you're right. You know I was just wondering that the other day after doing a factory reset and looking around at settings that seemed to imply that. So I was beginning to think that Green Power was just using those settings. This is my first Android phone so I'm in no way an expert, even less so when I started using Green Power a couple of months ago.
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Old May 29th, 2011, 05:46 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I was using juice defender plus, which lets you set different apps to connect with the screen off, but it was way too buggy.. sometimes would would work, sometimes wouldn't, sometimes would put the phone in a loop of disconnecting data and re-enabling it which was very annoying.

Just too aggressive IMO..

Green power disconnects for a set time, 2hours in my case, and temporarily connects for 10min to allow syncing unless the screen is on, or its connected to a power source in which case it stays connected no matter what. If I need data on with the screen off I just disable it altogether through the notification pulldown. Much easier..

My take on it is this. Juice defender works some of the time, is way too aggressive all the time, and didn't give me any better battery life than Green Power which is much simpler, works all the time, and just needs to be manually managed occasionally.
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Old May 29th, 2011, 05:50 PM   #7 (permalink)
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none! why limit the functionalty oh the a great phone

charge it when you need to, used the hell out of it in between!
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Old May 29th, 2011, 06:22 PM   #8 (permalink)
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none! why limit the functionalty oh the a great phone

charge it when you need to, used the hell out of it in between!
Like I said, Green Power only saves battery life when the phone is not in use. But I agree with your philosophy in general, which is why I have 3 batteries.
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Old May 29th, 2011, 07:22 PM   #9 (permalink)
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none! why limit the functionalty oh the a great phone

charge it when you need to, used the hell out of it in between!
Yeah that's what I do on normal days. But I'm going on vacation and won't be able to charge it all the time.
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Old May 29th, 2011, 09:08 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Yeah that's what I do on normal days. But I'm going on vacation and won't be able to charge it all the time.
I recently went to Disneyland for a day and I was quite worried about my battery so I turned 4G off. The battery lasted me all day of minimal use (but with my syncing enabled) and even well after a late dinner. By the time I got back my battery was at 25% after 14 hours. Not bad I'd say, but then again I was pretty busy the whole day and didn't need the screen on much.
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Old May 30th, 2011, 05:32 AM   #11 (permalink)
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IMHO, best power manager out there is rooting. Running an overclocked and undervolted rom, battery life is great. Never even felt as though I needed to try "battery saver" mode, which is available with Imo's leankernel, and is not overclocked.
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Old May 30th, 2011, 07:31 AM   #12 (permalink)
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The phone doesnt do #1 on it's own? I assumed it did since the 3G/4G/1X symbol disappears when the wifi comes on.
Actually, what it does is rout data through wifi, but it does NOT turn the radio off.
 
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Old May 30th, 2011, 08:37 AM   #13 (permalink)
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I don't use anything, but I do turn off 4G when I need to extend the life on trips. The rest of the time I worship at the feet of the outlet God.
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Old May 30th, 2011, 10:54 AM   #14 (permalink)
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already rooted.

and 4G is always turned off. Doesnt exist here yet. :-( haha. maybe by the end of the year
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Old May 30th, 2011, 11:31 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Juice Defender works fine for my wife's TB. I've never had any experience with GreenPower, but I might take a look at it now that I've heard about it.
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Old May 31st, 2011, 12:21 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robrecht View Post
I use Green Power free. I set it up to:
1. Turn off the phone's mobile data connection whenever I turn on WiFi.
2. Turn off the mobile data connection when the screen goes off
- set to come back on every 30 minutes to update email, etc
3. If I want to keep the phone on at night, I have it turn off WiFi when the screen is off
- you can also set how frequently it comes back on to update email, etc

It really helps save battery life when the phone is not being used heavily, but nothing really saves battery life when your phone is in constant use.

There are lots of other settings that I don't bother with, just keep the stock settings. The paid version also has a night mode, but I think I accomplish more or less the same thing by turning on the WiFi management.

Can you tell me how to change to these settings please.
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Old May 31st, 2011, 12:46 AM   #17 (permalink)
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I installed GreenPower last night after reading this thread and I am absolutely floored by the difference in battery life today. I have it set so that the data connection stays off for 30 min and then on for 2 min when the screen is off. Between this setting and just turning the screen on to check the time/email/RSS feeds I didn't miss out on any syncs.

Just goes to show that if your phone is spending much more time with the screen off then there's no point to keep that battery-hogging 4G data connection on. It's strange because I only sync a few things such as my RSS reader and weather every couple of hours and of course push gmail. I suspect that other apps are using data as well, but oh well, GreenPower takes care of that.
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Old May 31st, 2011, 10:14 AM   #18 (permalink)
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I get tremendous battery life out of my device without adding any battery market apps. I simply installed HTC's mobile data widget and turn it(with just one tap) on when needed and off when not needed. I use the mail widget to get all mail not gmail for gmail comes to the regular mail widget therefore there is no need for auto syncing. I just push the mail widget/shortcut and all mail is there. My device is highly optimized for the optimum battery life without root or extended batteries. I've been getting 14-17+ hrs since the update which is more than enough. Yes I do use the device each and every chance I get. From listening and downloading music and or movie watching, checking and sending email and texts, surfing web, and to me the biggest battery hog is making calls and of course we all make and receive phone calls, right. I have not listed all I do to get this prolonged battery life but you can rest assure itz better than downloading and tryin all those so-called battery savers. You are basically installing another battery eating app to do somethings and or all things you can and or should be able to do manually yourself. The thunderbolt has many widgets and shortcuts to do everything and then some that juice pretender and other so-called battery savers claim they do. Let me retract. I mean not to knock no one's hustle. Much respect to all the great developers out there. I just feel battery savers and or task killers, cleaners, and or managers are just a waste of time and precious space. I'd just rather replace those tools with apps that I can enjoy using. No dis respect to my Thunderbolt fam. I am only trying to encourage and challenge you all to think outside the box. Nothing wrong with that, right? BTW IMHO the biggest battery killers are make and receive calls, stand by and or bad to no signal strength (in which case I recommend airplane mode especially for long periods of time like @ work.) and last but not least of course there is the LTE/3G data but yet another suspect is display. Peace.........
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Old May 31st, 2011, 10:51 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by howarmat View Post
none! why limit the functionalty oh the a great phone

charge it when you need to, used the hell out of it in between!
Not quite sure I am following you...

If JuiceDefender (or GreenPower) turns off wifi, and/or data when the screen is off, and save power, which is what I understand, then turns it back on when I turn on the screen, all behind the scenes and without any input from me, I can still use my phone when I need it, actually, for a longer period of time, and not lose any functionality.

I downloaded JD last night on my TB, and I'll give it a try. Downloaded the beta version. (there are three versions, so it gets somewhat confusing...)

So far, it's only been less then an hour, but I checked email, answered an email, downloaded Plants vs. Zombies after going to Amazon store (BIG file, over 75mb in size), moved PvZ to memory card, made a call... and I'm still at 92%.

If anyone's interested in how well it works, I can post back here after a 24 hour trial period.
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Old May 31st, 2011, 12:24 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I'm surprised no one mentioned powermax, I've been using it for awhile and I like it
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Old May 31st, 2011, 12:33 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dachillfx View Post
I get tremendous battery life out of my device without adding any battery market apps. I simply installed HTC's mobile data widget and turn it(with just one tap) on when needed and off when not needed. I use the mail widget to get all mail not gmail for gmail comes to the regular mail widget therefore there is no need for auto syncing. I just push the mail widget/shortcut and all mail is there. My device is highly optimized for the optimum battery life without root or extended batteries. I've been getting 14-17+ hrs since the update which is more than enough. Yes I do use the device each and every chance I get. From listening and downloading music and or movie watching, checking and sending email and texts, surfing web, and to me the biggest battery hog is making calls and of course we all make and receive phone calls, right. I have not listed all I do to get this prolonged battery life but you can rest assure itz better than downloading and tryin all those so-called battery savers. You are basically installing another battery eating app to do somethings and or all things you can and or should be able to do manually yourself. The thunderbolt has many widgets and shortcuts to do everything and then some that juice pretender and other so-called battery savers claim they do. Let me retract. I mean not to knock no one's hustle. Much respect to all the great developers out there. I just feel battery savers and or task killers, cleaners, and or managers are just a waste of time and precious space. I'd just rather replace those tools with apps that I can enjoy using. No dis respect to my Thunderbolt fam. I am only trying to encourage and challenge you all to think outside the box. Nothing wrong with that, right? BTW IMHO the biggest battery killers are make and receive calls, stand by and or bad to no signal strength (in which case I recommend airplane mode especially for long periods of time like @ work.) and last but not least of course there is the LTE/3G data but yet another suspect is display. Peace.........
Another reason why I prefer green power, its a very small app. Takes up next to nothing in terms of space.

Nothing is going to save battery with the screen on, the screen just sucks too much juice to do much about it.

The benefit is saving battery when you're not using the phone. Why keep data connected when the phone isn't in use?

You don't miss out on any syncing, all messages come through as normal, just keeps the battery level literally stationary in standby.

May not be for everyone, but its very good at what it does, and takes up very very little space. Of which the Tbolt has more than plenty.
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Old May 31st, 2011, 01:11 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I don't use anything. Able to get a full 24 hours on battery with light to moderate use. Might be trying Greenpower to see how things go, though.
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Old May 31st, 2011, 03:19 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shel View Post
Not quite sure I am following you...

If JuiceDefender (or GreenPower) turns off wifi, and/or data when the screen is off, and save power, which is what I understand, then turns it back on when I turn on the screen, all behind the scenes and without any input from me, I can still use my phone when I need it, actually, for a longer period of time, and not lose any functionality.


I downloaded JD last night on my TB, and I'll give it a try. Downloaded the beta version. (there are three versions, so it gets somewhat confusing...)

So far, it's only been less then an hour, but I checked email, answered an email, downloaded Plants vs. Zombies after going to Amazon store (BIG file, over 75mb in size), moved PvZ to memory card, made a call... and I'm still at 92%.

If anyone's interested in how well it works, I can post back here after a 24 hour trial period.
you lose email functionality. you cant get email if the data isnt on. some IM programs would lose connection too. Trust me you lose functionality. And honestly 92% after that is not really good. that would be the same i get probably.
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Old June 1st, 2011, 01:49 AM   #24 (permalink)
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you lose email functionality. you cant get email if the data isnt on. some IM programs would lose connection too. Trust me you lose functionality. And honestly 92% after that is not really good. that would be the same i get probably.
Wait.. so when my screen is off, I won't get email? I can't receive or read email when my screen is off? Is that the issue?

When I turn ON my device, my data is instantly turned on, and e-mail is downloaded. Actually, it turns on data intermittently, even when the screen is off, and downloads e-mail, but I have email sync set to sync only every 30 minutes, and sync when I open up my email program. Again, it's all personal, but I don't need to know the instant email arrives, esp. being much of it is junk.

Not much of a problem for my type of usage, but to each his own. Works for some, doesn't work for the way others use their phone.

I do receive IM's without any problem, using Go SMS even with screen off, and also recieve phone calls. That's all I'm concerned with.
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Old June 1st, 2011, 12:03 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Old June 1st, 2011, 12:29 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I do receive IM's without any problem, using Go SMS even with screen off, and also recieve phone calls. That's all I'm concerned with.
IM's are from instant messaging programs that require data (3G 4G). sms and phone run on the same connection that don't require 3G or 4G.
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Old June 1st, 2011, 01:06 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dachillfx View Post
I get tremendous battery life out of my device without adding any battery market apps. I simply installed HTC's mobile data widget and turn it(with just one tap) on when needed and off when not needed. I use the mail widget to get all mail not gmail for gmail comes to the regular mail widget therefore there is no need for auto syncing. I just push the mail widget/shortcut and all mail is there. My device is highly optimized for the optimum battery life without root or extended batteries. I've been getting 14-17+ hrs since the update which is more than enough. Yes I do use the device each and every chance I get. From listening and downloading music and or movie watching, checking and sending email and texts, surfing web, and to me the biggest battery hog is making calls and of course we all make and receive phone calls, right. I have not listed all I do to get this prolonged battery life but you can rest assure itz better than downloading and tryin all those so-called battery savers. You are basically installing another battery eating app to do somethings and or all things you can and or should be able to do manually yourself. The thunderbolt has many widgets and shortcuts to do everything and then some that juice pretender and other so-called battery savers claim they do. Let me retract. I mean not to knock no one's hustle. Much respect to all the great developers out there. I just feel battery savers and or task killers, cleaners, and or managers are just a waste of time and precious space. I'd just rather replace those tools with apps that I can enjoy using. No dis respect to my Thunderbolt fam. I am only trying to encourage and challenge you all to think outside the box. Nothing wrong with that, right? BTW IMHO the biggest battery killers are make and receive calls, stand by and or bad to no signal strength (in which case I recommend airplane mode especially for long periods of time like @ work.) and last but not least of course there is the LTE/3G data but yet another suspect is display. Peace.........
I'd like to know where I can find the HTC's mobile data widget.
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Old June 1st, 2011, 02:39 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Wait.. so when my screen is off, I won't get email? I can't receive or read email when my screen is off? Is that the issue?

When I turn ON my device, my data is instantly turned on, and e-mail is downloaded. Actually, it turns on data intermittently, even when the screen is off, and downloads e-mail, but I have email sync set to sync only every 30 minutes, and sync when I open up my email program. Again, it's all personal, but I don't need to know the instant email arrives, esp. being much of it is junk.

Not much of a problem for my type of usage, but to each his own. Works for some, doesn't work for the way others use their phone.

I do receive IM's without any problem, using Go SMS even with screen off, and also recieve phone calls. That's all I'm concerned with.
Exactly. I could see how GreenPower would not be good for many people who need access to their email, especially for work etc. However, for me I don't receive critical emails so GreenPower is insanely helpful for conserving battery so that I can later do much less productive things like play Angry Birds ha .
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Old June 1st, 2011, 11:13 PM   #29 (permalink)
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I don't use either app...but I have trust issues

Me too...
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Old June 2nd, 2011, 08:09 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Can anyone tell me how this works with something like Touchdown Exchange email? If the screen is off and then the data connection kills for 30 mins....I won't receive any incoming push email?

(Or does push come through, all other data/sync is just disabled?) My Tbolt is a work phone so email is key.
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Old June 2nd, 2011, 08:30 AM   #31 (permalink)
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in my experience you would lose the push functionality for touchdown, when the data comes back, you would have your emails come in
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Old June 2nd, 2011, 08:32 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Gah that's what I figured lol. I had a feeling Touchdown is a large part of the battery drain. I'm going to try and disable LTE today and see how it affects things.
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Old June 2nd, 2011, 02:15 PM   #33 (permalink)
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How often do you need to respond to emails generally?

You can change the data off to maybe 15min, and data on for 1 or 2min.. if there's not an immediate need to respond immediately to work emails it would still help.

Juice Defender Plus does allow certain apps to connect with the screen off and force a data connection, which sounds great in theory. Reason I purchased it actually, but I found it doesn't quite work as it should all the time.

Green Power is free, so maybe try it for a day, play with the data off/data on settings and see if it makes a noticeable difference in battery life.
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Old June 2nd, 2011, 07:50 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Can you tell me how to change to these settings please.

You can turn off VZ data by selecting settings-wireless networks-mobile network, uncheck the box.
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Old June 2nd, 2011, 07:56 PM   #35 (permalink)
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I'd like to know where I can find the HTC's mobile data widget.

I have looked for this widget and can not find one for mobile data or APN from htc. You can get a widget for it though. I haven't yet because it looks like they need updates. I'm going to wait till after Gingerbread comes out to get anything like that.

Posted with my Thunderbolt.
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Old June 3rd, 2011, 05:31 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Thx
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Old June 3rd, 2011, 09:00 PM   #37 (permalink)
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I'd like to know where I can find the HTC's mobile data widget.
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I have looked for this widget and can not find one for mobile data or APN from htc. ...
It's the blue globe/sphere with three bands wrappe around it and is called "Mobile". Go to Pallette (or menu, Personalize), Widget, Browse all HTC widgets, and then slide the screen to the left to about #50 out of 66.

The number may be different on your phone; mines different 'cause I've added a few widgets.

It's also on the Settings - Data Dashboard, which is around 48/66.
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Old June 4th, 2011, 12:27 AM   #38 (permalink)
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extended battery works for me.
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Old June 4th, 2011, 12:49 PM   #39 (permalink)
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It's the blue globe/sphere with three bands wrappe around it and is called "Mobile". Go to Pallette (or menu, Personalize), Widget, Browse all HTC widgets, and then slide the screen to the left to about #50 out of 66.

The number may be different on your phone; mines different 'cause I've added a few widgets.

It's also on the Settings - Data Dashboard, which is around 48/66.

I found it, much thanks.
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Old June 6th, 2011, 06:49 AM   #40 (permalink)
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you lose email functionality. you cant get email if the data isnt on. some IM programs would lose connection too. Trust me you lose functionality. And honestly 92% after that is not really good. that would be the same i get probably.
1. Rarely do people select the push option for email - this is an absolute battery killer
2. If you don't use push, than the question becomes which how often do I synch? 10 mins? 15 mins? etc. But all this time the 4G radio is on.
3. You don't lose email at all with GP (I don't have JD). It turns the connections on when you want them to come on, email comes in, and then it shuts off again. If you turn on the screen manually, the data connection goes live again.
4. I like the "night mode" for the premium version. This just lets me turn all data off for a set range of time while sleeping.

TBolt has seperate radios for data connection and voice, so when GP shuts off the data connection (4G and wi-fi) you still have the phone radio on to receive calls.
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Old June 6th, 2011, 06:51 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Exactly. I could see how GreenPower would not be good for many people who need access to their email, especially for work etc. However, for me I don't receive critical emails so GreenPower is insanely helpful for conserving battery so that I can later do much less productive things like play Angry Birds ha .
Actually, delaying response to emails is good for a variety of reasons!
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Old June 6th, 2011, 10:09 AM   #42 (permalink)
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JD ultimate with no problems, once you set it up forget about it and enjoy your phone!
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Old June 6th, 2011, 10:51 AM   #43 (permalink)
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1. Rarely do people select the push option for email - this is an absolute battery killer
2. If you don't use push, than the question becomes which how often do I synch? 10 mins? 15 mins? etc. But all this time the 4G radio is on.
3. You don't lose email at all with GP (I don't have JD). It turns the connections on when you want them to come on, email comes in, and then it shuts off again. If you turn on the screen manually, the data connection goes live again.
4. I like the "night mode" for the premium version. This just lets me turn all data off for a set range of time while sleeping.

TBolt has seperate radios for data connection and voice, so when GP shuts off the data connection (4G and wi-fi) you still have the phone radio on to receive calls.
Push syncing is actually supposed to be more battery efficient than polling from what I've read, at least theoretically. Long polling intervals would be more efficient of course, but the whole reasoning behind Push syncing is that the phone does not need to keep connecting to the network and email server to simply check if there's mail. I'll poke around a bit more myself on this topic though. I'm sure poorly implemented Push services could be very draining battery-wise.
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Old June 6th, 2011, 12:14 PM   #44 (permalink)
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My problem, is that I do nothing but stream Pandora all day at work :P Since the screen is off unless I get a call or txt, that's not using much. Which leaves the data stream as the only other major draw of juice, and...turning it off kills my radio. Puts me in that minority that my habits don't lend well to the options. There's pretty much nothing I can do that would improve on it, since that's what I mainly use it for. For the record though, I do get about 6-7 hours of straight music before it starts yelling at me. Considering I'm stock, with a stock battery, I can't really complain.

Now the other day playing golf with GolfLogix on the whole round, in a barely-there coverage area...yeah...how I made it to the 18th is beyond me...
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Old June 7th, 2011, 10:02 PM   #45 (permalink)
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I have used both Juicedefender and GreenPower (pro on both). Initially I started with Greenpower due to JD not supporting the TB. On a stock battery, rooted I was getting anywhere from 10-14 hours depending on how heavy I used it.

Once JD supported the TB I switched, The best I ever got out of JD was 9 hours and in most cases less than 8. I gave it 3 weeks before giving up.

I switched back to green power and with the recent update I am averaging 11 hours with moderate usage.
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Old June 7th, 2011, 10:44 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Push syncing is actually supposed to be more battery efficient than polling from what I've read, at least theoretically. Long polling intervals would be more efficient of course, but the whole reasoning behind Push syncing is that the phone does not need to keep connecting to the network and email server to simply check if there's mail. I'll poke around a bit more myself on this topic though. I'm sure poorly implemented Push services could be very draining battery-wise.
exactly, if done correctly its the better way to go. I have been using it on my incredible and thunderbolt and dont experience drain from having 3 accounts, twitter, facebook and htcsense all set up with push
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Old June 8th, 2011, 06:18 AM   #47 (permalink)
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exactly, if done correctly its the better way to go. I have been using it on my incredible and thunderbolt and dont experience drain from having 3 accounts, twitter, facebook and htcsense all set up with push
Is there a correct way and an incorrect way. I just have the box checked on the sync frequency menu. Is there another way that's better or worse?
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Old June 8th, 2011, 05:15 PM   #48 (permalink)
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it depends on the program and how its written. I knew some i tried didnt really have push, they just remained connected and check every minute for mail. those ate battery like mad. Most apps are fine and do push correctly. If you selected "push" or "automatic" then you should be fine
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Old June 8th, 2011, 10:22 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Push syncing is actually supposed to be more battery efficient than polling from what I've read, at least theoretically. Long polling intervals would be more efficient of course, but the whole reasoning behind Push syncing is that the phone does not need to keep connecting to the network and email server to simply check if there's mail. I'll poke around a bit more myself on this topic though. I'm sure poorly implemented Push services could be very draining battery-wise.
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it depends on the program and how its written. I knew some i tried didnt really have push, they just remained connected and check every minute for mail. those ate battery like mad. Most apps are fine and do push correctly. If you selected "push" or "automatic" then you should be fine
Oh, I see, you were talking about how this is programmed, not the settings. I'm still not convinced push email is necessarily less of a drain on the battery than checking on a fixed interval. Wouldn't that depend on how many emails one gets vs how frequently one sets the fixed interval. I get a LOT of emails at work. When I have it set on push, emails are constantly showing up.
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Old June 9th, 2011, 03:27 PM   #50 (permalink)
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I don't use anything, but I do turn off 4G when I need to extend the life on trips. The rest of the time I worship at the feet of the outlet God.
Where do you turn off 4G?
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