i know there are now apps to keep the leds on so we can use it as a flashlight or whatever but does this kill the leds? i was thinking why else wouldnt htc put this functionality into the phone? maybe the leds are only meant to be on for short bursts like for the camera and keeping them on will burn it out. just curous
I want to try out the app but I'm gonna hold off for a bit. Something tells me it's probably not in the best interest of the led's to leave them on for any extended period of time.
Well, how long we talking here. If you need to use them for a few minutes thats really nothing at all for a led. These are among the longest lasting and energy effcient lights you can get. I wouldnt recommend leaving them on to work on your car for 30mins to an hour or anything like that although that could still be done but I would look for any heating up on the battery pack or phone itself if you were to run them for a extended period of time.
BTW what app have you found that work on the incredible to turn the leds on?????
I want to try out the app but I'm gonna hold off for a bit. Something tells me it's probably not in the best interest of the led's to leave them on for any extended period of time.
This. It can't be good to have them on for an extended period of time so I avoid LED apps.
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LED's have thousands of hours of life in them...why do you think that they are being used everywhere now? Especially in cars? It's because they last somewhat forever, take less energy to power than a bulb, less heat than a bulb, and are also brighter. You will not have any problems with the LED's burning out in your phone unless there is a power issue, which I am sure you would have known by now.
Long story short: the app won't hurt your LED's. Any talk of it is just silly nonsense.
I am an electronics tech and can tell you, leds have a loooong life. Many are rated at anywhere from 20k-100k hours. The trick to not damaging an led is to not apply to much voltage and not overheat it. Assuming the supply voltage for the leds in the Incredible does not go over it's threshold,and you don't leave it on for a half hour or longer, there should be no reason the leds won't outlast your phone. If you need it for a half hour or longer, find a flashlight. I have the buggy Incredible led app (I've wasted more than $1 on a lot worse) and when I've had to use it I've typically had it on for no more than a few minutes. So as long as you don't over-voltage or overheat the leds, they should be fine.
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but if that is true why wouldnt they inlclude the leds to be used with video recording?
From what I've heard, Froyo 2.2 will unlock this. I've heard some devs are waiting for this to make creating an led flashlight app easier to do. Or you could just go into camcorder mode (with I'm assuming a night setting) and use it as a flashlight that way.
From what I understand about camera flash LED's, they are designed to take a high current for a short amount of time (to flash obviously) and provide a high intensity of light. A good flashlight app should be able to control the current (providing the hardware allows for such function, which shouldn't be an issue) and keep it at a level below that maximum that will not overstress/overheat the LED and cause it to fail prematurely or damage it to where it doesn't provide its capable light output. If the LED is powered properly, theoretically no damage should occur and there shouldn't be excessive currents drawn from the battery that would cause components to heat up much.
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LEDs will not be harmed in the use of your Incredible!!! dont be soo scared people just dont leave it on all day... i used my omnia as a flashlight all the time with no problem
I can't believe how much talk is still going on about this :P
As for the question of why it wasn't included stock...why wasn't 720p recording included stock? No one knows for sure, but just because it isn't included doesn't mean it will blow up your phone.
The half hour story is also a joke. LED's don't "overheat." Leave them on for a full day, and then touch them or take the temperature..guarantee you it won't be any hotter than it was when you first turned it on.
LED's were meant for this application - VERY long life and VERY high brightness and LITTLE energy consumption.
Anyone who wishes to challenge this any further leave them on for a whole day and tell me they get hotter or they burnt out :P (they won't)
P.S. perfect example: LED TV's! Do you think they would sell a TV that burned out in a year or less, or that heated up and died? I guess if you guys want an LED tv you can only watch a half an hour at a time...just sayin...
There won't be a problem. Froyo will give you the ability to leave the LED on while recording video so you can record video in the dark. They wouldn't allow this if it was bad for the hardware.
The half hour story is also a joke. LED's don't "overheat." Leave them on for a full day, and then touch them or take the temperature..guarantee you it won't be any hotter than it was when you first turned it on.
LED's were meant for this application - VERY long life and VERY high brightness and LITTLE energy consumption.
Anyone who wishes to challenge this any further leave them on for a whole day and tell me they get hotter or they burnt out :P (they won't)
Quote:
Originally Posted by arunningpir8
P.S. perfect example: LED TV's! Do you think they would sell a TV that burned out in a year or less, or that heated up and died? I guess if you guys want an LED tv you can only watch a half an hour at a time...just sayin...
*facepalm* You guys, don't do this to yourselves, you're setting yourself up for failure...
All LED's are NOT created equal. Yes they are usually all meant to provide some sort of light, whether it be infrared, visible or ultraviolet. There are low current LED's meant for low power lighting applications and there are high current LED's meant for applications where high light intensity and power is required. Some LED's definitely need a large heatsink to operate at their rated voltage/current so that damage will not occur. Flash LED's are a type of high current LED, usually requiring somewhere around 500mA to 700mA or more and if left on for too long at their max current, they WILL get damaged, which is why they have to be driven at lower currents when providing light for extended periods of time, but not get damaged. A typical LED used for general purposes may only need somewhere around 10 - 20mA of current and no, they will not be noticeably warm.
Take this LED for example: It's a PhlatLight LED meant for projection TV's.
It has a built in thermistor for use with a microcontroller to monitor temperature and a copper plate meant to attach to a larger heatsink. Depending on the color, red green or blue, the voltage ranges between: 2.3V to 4.4V typical. Not a big deal, right? Your phone battery can be made to put out any voltage in that range with the proper power supply. However, your phone battery won't be able to power these properly because, you see, they need an 18 amp current source! Feel free to tell me you can run these LED's at their stated voltage and current with no other heatsink attached for 30 minutes and take no damage... While the current required to produce a similar level of light to these LED's by an incandescent bulb will indeed be much higher if operated at similar voltages, it doesn't make the requirements for these LED's insignificant.
The LED's in phones don't require currents that high but they do require regulation to keep them within safe specs and they also don't include much of a heatsink to keep temperature down when operating at their max, because they are not intended to be operated at max for long periods of time. The only worry I have about a flashlight app for the phone is that it will drive it at max current constantly. On the Omnia, you can tell a difference between flash intensity and "flashlight" intensity when using the included flashlight function on that phone; the flashlight intensity was always less. It all really comes down to the hardware in the phone and what mode the LED driver circuitry is operated in. LED drivers meant for flash can have both flash and torch modes and as long as the software drives the LED in torch mode when operating as a flashlight, then everything should be ok.
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Besides draining the battery (by a lot) it won't 'hurt' the phone in anyway, assuming its not already overheating. I know the Flash on the Incredible won't even go off under 15% battery life (or was it 10% mmm)
*facepalm* You guys, don't do this to yourselves, you're setting yourself up for failure...
All LED's are NOT created equal. Yes they are usually all meant to provide some sort of light, whether it be infrared, visible or ultraviolet. There are low current LED's meant for low power lighting applications and there are high current LED's meant for applications where high light intensity and power is required. Some LED's definitely need a large heatsink to operate at their rated voltage/current so that damage will not occur. Flash LED's are a type of high current LED, usually requiring somewhere around 500mA to 700mA or more and if left on for too long at their max current, they WILL get damaged, which is why they have to be driven at lower currents when providing light for extended periods of time, but not get damaged. A typical LED used for general purposes may only need somewhere around 10 - 20mA of current and no, they will not be noticeably warm.
Take this LED for example: It's a PhlatLight LED meant for projection TV's.
It has a built in thermistor for use with a microcontroller to monitor temperature and a copper plate meant to attach to a larger heatsink. Depending on the color, red green or blue, the voltage ranges between: 2.3V to 4.4V typical. Not a big deal, right? Your phone battery can be made to put out any voltage in that range with the proper power supply. However, your phone battery won't be able to power these properly because, you see, they need an 18 amp current source! Feel free to tell me you can run these LED's at their stated voltage and current with no other heatsink attached for 30 minutes and take no damage... While the current required to produce a similar level of light to these LED's by an incandescent bulb will indeed be much higher if operated at similar voltages, it doesn't make the requirements for these LED's insignificant.
The LED's in phones don't require currents that high but they do require regulation to keep them within safe specs and they also don't include much of a heatsink to keep temperature down when operating at their max, because they are not intended to be operated at max for long periods of time. The only worry I have about a flashlight app for the phone is that it will drive it at max current constantly. On the Omnia, you can tell a difference between flash intensity and "flashlight" intensity when using the included flashlight function on that phone; the flashlight intensity was always less. It all really comes down to the hardware in the phone and what mode the LED driver circuitry is operated in. LED drivers meant for flash can have both flash and torch modes and as long as the software drives the LED in torch mode when operating as a flashlight, then everything should be ok.
Time for your own facepalm
Do you really think that a small 3.7V battery is going to power a super powered LED that has a high current driver that's bigger than the size of the phone itself? Nada. These LED's are no more than SMD's, and like stated earlier, will not be damaged if left on. If you would actually look at the internals of the phone you would know this.
However if you take your phone apart and see that giant heatsink folded up in there, then take a picture and share so we know not to run them :P
i do not use flashlight apps but i do when i need it really fast is i just go to my video recording and turn it on the led lights up and when i am done i delete the video easy as sead and done
Do you really think that a small 3.7V battery is going to power a super powered LED that has a high current driver that's bigger than the size of the phone itself? Nada. These LED's are no more than SMD's, and like stated earlier, will not be damaged if left on. If you would actually look at the internals of the phone you would know this.
However if you take your phone apart and see that giant heatsink folded up in there, then take a picture and share so we know not to run them :P
Wow, this guy must be related to Nick Holonyak! I've never seen anyone take an LED so seriously before.
I've worked at a casino for 6 years now, i was a bench technition for a while. All of the buttons on the machine have L.E.D. under them, they never burn out, and there is a lot of heat emitted. The only reason they would have to be changed, was due to the button being smashed.
Do you really think that a small 3.7V battery is going to power a super powered LED that has a high current driver that's bigger than the size of the phone itself? Nada. These LED's are no more than SMD's, and like stated earlier, will not be damaged if left on. If you would actually look at the internals of the phone you would know this.
Time to return the facepalm favor to you.
If you'd have taken the time to read the whole post, which you probably didn't, you'd have seen that I already took care of said issue. I wrote and I quote: "However, your phone battery won't be able to power these properly because, you see, they need an 18 amp current source!"
Yes, they are SMD components inside the phone, but LED's are not just about voltage, or size. But what would I know... I only design and make my own circuit boards and power supplies...
And no, those PhlatLight LED's aren't bigger than the phone itself. They're actually rather small. Maybe about the size of a quarter including plate and all. I was going to order some a while ago, but never ended up going through with it. They're rather pricey.
I have taken my Incredible apart plenty of times already, looking for ways to do hardware mods, to know what the inside looks like, thank you very much...
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If you'd have taken the time to read the whole post, which you probably didn't, you'd have seen that I already took care of said issue. I wrote and I quote: "However, your phone battery won't be able to power these properly because, you see, they need an 18 amp current source!"
Yes, they are SMD components inside the phone, but LED's are not just about voltage, or size. But what would I know... I only design and make my own circuit boards and power supplies...
And no, those PhlatLight LED's aren't bigger than the phone itself. They're actually rather small. Maybe about the size of a quarter including plate and all. I was going to order some a while ago, but never ended up going through with it. They're rather pricey.
I have taken my Incredible apart plenty of times already, looking for ways to do hardware mods, to know what the inside looks like, thank you very much...
Ding, Ding, Ding!! Okay, that's the bell. It's a TKO!!!!
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This is the actual LED module inside the Incredible, taken out of mine:
As you can see, the copper traces extend well beyond the pad areas needed by the LED's to be soldered on on both the top and bottom sides. This is done to help dissipate heat away from the LED's and is commonly done on power SMD components to eliminate the use of a dedicated heatsink.
Guy's, I'm not trying to be a dic... uh.... doo-doo head here, but I'd hate the wrong information to be thrown out there to cause confusion and FUD to be spread around like Nutella on toast. I just want you to be educated and I think I've been able to provide enough proof that I'm not pulling "facts" out my @$$.
I'm not trying to say that LED apps are bad, not if they're implemented properly, but to say that any LED won't burn out if left on for long enough is not accurate, and it's not accurate when it comes to camera flash LED's, I repeat again: WHEN NOT IMPLEMENTED PROPERLY. I welcome the thought of a flashlight app for the Inc and I could really use one, I just don't want it to be one that will damage it.
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Before I begin my comment I would like to say I haven't received my Incredible yet:
I often go off-roading late at night in my jeep. I've figured that there is a 40% chance I will break down on any given night. The last time I broke down I snapped the U-Joint in my rear drive axle.
Long story short... I had my blackberry storm. Which has the brightest LED flash I have seen. I ran that little LED for about 45 minutes almost continuously. Other nights I would use it for 5-10 minutes. 20 minutes. Whenever we needed light for anything "Nick, you got your phone?" In fact, because im getting rid of my storm. I might make a video of my storm next to a clock with the flash going for an hour.
*UPDATE* Not going to take a video, but I started my flash at 11:55 AM EST
*UPDATE* I let it go for 45 minutes. No heat either from battery or LED.
Last edited by nickreich; June 20th, 2010 at 05:06 PM.
If you'd have taken the time to read the whole post, which you probably didn't, you'd have seen that I already took care of said issue. I wrote and I quote: "However, your phone battery won't be able to power these properly because, you see, they need an 18 amp current source!"
Yes, they are SMD components inside the phone, but LED's are not just about voltage, or size. But what would I know... I only design and make my own circuit boards and power supplies...
And no, those PhlatLight LED's aren't bigger than the phone itself. They're actually rather small. Maybe about the size of a quarter including plate and all. I was going to order some a while ago, but never ended up going through with it. They're rather pricey.
I have taken my Incredible apart plenty of times already, looking for ways to do hardware mods, to know what the inside looks like, thank you very much...
Fair enough, I didn't see the quote on the amperage measurement. I have also built my own power supplies, but deal more with old school amplifiers and I took many courses in digital design. At first I thought you were simply pulling stuff from wikipedia or the likes, but I am not someone who comes to flame, and will admit when I am wrong. Those pictures of the LED do backup your statement of heat dissipation, however I still can say with quite a bit of reassurance that the circuit is designed well enough to handle the LED's being on all the time.
Truly the only way to know for sure would be to cut one of the traces and measure the amperage going through them when you activate the flash...however I am not such in the mood to start cutting away at my brand new phone
My personal opinion after dealing with digital design for so long is that the LED's will be fine in the Incredible and will almost positively outlast the phone itself.
When I posted my lil thing about overheating it was due to an article about how to calculate the life of your led. Heat was listed as one of the factors, with a higher operating tempature lowering the life of the led.
My company installs a wide variety of electronic, communication, and security equipment. All of the keypads we install for security systems come with led indicators, with different sizes, voltages, and current requirements. Many times we have had to add an led for additional notification. We use a blue led (very bright), in a traditional form factor (not the pc board mount like shown in the previous post). We had to add resistors to lower the current and limit the brightness to extend the life of the leds. If you lit the led without lowering the current and left it on for 15-30 minutes, they would be very warm. And before we started taking measures to lower the current, we would have to replace the leds after about 3 years. So heat can affect the life of these as well as any electronic component.
I didn't realize when I posted this that it was going to turn into a brawl, sorry about that. I hadn't seen (previous to this thread) the actual circuit inside the Incredible, so I didn't know for certain if the circuit was set up for short or long term operation. I would assume they would set it up for long term as the led flashlight option is starting to become commonplace in the mobile phone market. My original post kinda tried to shed some light on why some people have this fear of the leds overheating. I guess in that I faliled.
Last edited by vzwuser76; June 20th, 2010 at 05:08 PM.
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You guys are pulling crap out of your ass when you say LED can not be exposed for a long period of time. LEDs are very durable.
I think the point we have been trying to make is they can run for a very long time provided they are driven correctly, meaning no overvoltage, overcurrent, or overheating. Each of these conditions can damage and/or shorten the life of the led. I agree they are very durable, again, provided they are driven correctly.
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LEDs, just like many other things can and will be damaged if used incorrectly. Its up to you to decide, I would imagine using them on regular, not the higher flash setting, would be harmless. Only time will tell.
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I think the point we have been trying to make is they can run for a very long time provided they are driven correctly, meaning no overvoltage, overcurrent, or overheating. Each of these conditions can damage and/or shorten the life of the led. I agree they are very durable, again, provided they are driven correctly.
Truly the only way to know for sure would be to cut one of the traces and measure the amperage going through them when you activate the flash...however I am not such in the mood to start cutting away at my brand new phone
Yeah, I figured that much too, but I'm not about to go try it out myself either... although, there is a way I could do it without having to cut anything up. If I decide to do it, I'll post up some results of how much current is delivered to the LED's, just for fun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vzwuser76
I think the point we have been trying to make is they can run for a very long time provided they are driven correctly, meaning no overvoltage, overcurrent, or overheating. Each of these conditions can damage and/or shorten the life of the led. I agree they are very durable, again, provided they are driven correctly.
Exactly, and it's up to the software to control the hardware properly, unless there's some sort of limit already put in place in the hardware, which we don't know for sure.
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All three are less bright than when running the video cam with the LED's on. I'm a photographer and when I find my old Gossen Luna Pro X I may come back and tell you just how much. Having been a full time photographer for 25 years I can judge light well and I will tell you that the dimmest setting is less than a quarter, perhaps as little as one 10th of the video light power. Medium setting is still only 1/4-1/3 at power at most, and full power is maybe 1/2. No way that's going to harm the LED's or else HTC put out some very bad software built-in with that video camera app and I searched all over online without finding a single such problem mentioned. Try that yourself. Then try the LED Flashlight app with the three settings.
Funny thing too, there are a LOT of Flashlight apps with the same exact name, simply "Flashlight". This one however sports an icon of a flashlight pointing at the 11 oclock position and when you launch it the flashlight points up at the 12 oclock position and has some curious markings on the lower part of the handle. Maybe someone can help me decipher them. They bear a remarkable resemblance to the following three letters - H T C
L O L
Get it. Use it. Just don't overdo it on it's highest setting (half hour ought to be a very safe limit) and the only LED's or batteries it would be likely to damage are any that were defective in the first place.
I have now read several threads on the same topic: Can the camera LED get damaged when running it continuously as a flashlight? My conclusion is that nobody knows. All the answers that were given are wrong, misleading, or at least incomplete. Examples:
LEDs are durable. They are designed to run for very long times.
This ignores that the LEDs in smartphones are meant to emit a very short, very bright flash. Such a flash may well run the LED way beyond its long-term limitations. Switching the LED on for extended periods of time with the same power may well break it sooner, rather than later.
I have run my smartphone LED for an hour and it did not break.
Not all smartphones are created equal. In one the LED may last, in the next it may break.
Motorola has flashlight software, so it can't be bad.
Either Motorola's app may throttle the LED down to continuous light specs or Motorola phones have durable LEDs. That is no guarantee for other manufacturers.
And on and on. The problem is, it is all speculation. There is nobody here who really knows. We would need somebody who has designed a smartphone, knows the specifications, and has dealt specifically with this issue.
LED apps bad for the phone?
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