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Old November 19th, 2010, 08:48 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Frisco View Post
There is never, ever an excuse for striking a child. It is bullying, plain and simple. How do you feel doing it?
Either/or Fallacy? There could be several "excuses" for striking a child, in an odd case where the child has a gun and isn't reasoning with you, are you going to try and "talk" the child out of shooting another person making a grave mistake? The argument that it is always wrong, negates the complexities of the issue. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't to strike a child even, not even in the specific case of spanking.

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It is interesting when people enter a discussion about raising kids, etc and they want to make a case for physically attacking a young person. They'll use cute words, like "spanking," etc.

Some will tell how they were assaulted and how it did them good. Of course, they have no choice, do they, because the parent hitting them was also the person providing food and shelter. People need to think about how disgusting a scenario that is.
Straw man fallacy. Assaulting a child is incredibly different from spanking a child, you attack assaulting a child, and give the reason that is bad in this weird anecdotal type evidence to prove that spanking is wrong always? At best it's weak on the grounds of it's one anecdotal example trying to prove EVERY single example of spanking throughout how many years and scenario's of spanking in civilization?

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It's simply cowardice and an admission that the parent does not know what they are doing so they resort to physical force. And it is quite common, look at the world, people at every level of society, world-wide, are solving their issues with violence and then, when they "win," talking about how "god" was with them, etc.
[strike]Ad Hominem Tu Quoque fallacy.[/strike] You can disregard this one.


The post is lacking of several important factors that come into play. It made me feel so disgusted that those that have spanked are compared to an assault on a child in such manor.

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Old November 19th, 2010, 09:10 PM   #52 (permalink)
 
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You're so ignorant.
agreed/



just like if you ALWAYS use spanking, it becomes an ineffective tool, not using it at all is also ineffective.
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Old November 19th, 2010, 09:11 PM   #53 (permalink)
 
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lol... nice edit there. Striking them down, like a parent should do to their flunking kid. bwahahaha
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Old November 19th, 2010, 09:36 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MJM128 View Post
Either/or Fallacy?



Straw man fallacy.



Ad Hominem Tu Quoque fallacy.


You're so ignorant. What a disgusting post.
Before you begin hurling your own bit of Ad Hominem, you should do two things. Review the rules of this forum and study up on your logical fallacies. You only got one out of four correct.
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Old November 19th, 2010, 09:57 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Before you begin hurling your own bit of Ad Hominem, you should do two things. Review the rules of this forum and study up on your logical fallacies. You only got one out of four correct.
I had made no claims other than he was ignorant and the post was discussing my views on it. I'd like to know where i had made an ad hominem in the original post. I reviewed the rules and edited accordingly. Also there are three logical fallacies there, not sure how I can get 1/4 right, especially when the first one has a question-mark and is not necessarily accusing him of a fallacy.

To relate this to the thread, I do not believe spanking would be efficient in this scenario.
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Old November 20th, 2010, 04:52 AM   #56 (permalink)
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I had made no claims other than he was ignorant
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I reviewed the rules and edited accordingly.
I'm glad, because that prevented an infraction for a personal attack.

@ ALL
The OP invited input on this topic, so please be considerate of others' views when replying. You may or may not agree with them, but they are just as valid as your own. Also remember we have a wide range of ages and backgrounds amongst our membership, so don't assume anything about a contributor unless they state it as fact themselves.

Now back to the discussion.....
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Old November 20th, 2010, 08:50 AM   #57 (permalink)
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Also to further clarify, since some of you are assuming that the spanking was intended to punish him for failing. First off, I never did spank him to begin with because at the time I was upset and I will never spank my child out of anger. Secondly, if I had spanked him, it would have been because he lied to us and attempted to deceive his teacher by forging our signature. Furthermore, just because I'm a proponent of spanking doesn't mean that I physically abuse my children. I've never cursed at my children, or hit them with an open hand, or yelled at them to belittle them. But if they misbehave they will get spanked on the bottom ... and yes, spankings can be effective if used the right way.
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Old November 20th, 2010, 01:40 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Have you thought since your child always got straight A's and seems to know the stuff so well that he's just bored? That whole "not being challenged enough" thing can be true. Are there any GATE programs or anything at this school? Something that may be more fun so that it challenges him?
This happened to me in primary (elementary) school
I basicically just messed in class, didnt do my homework etc, because it was too boring and easy
One of the main things was texting in class (your child has a phone?)
I did get accepted for a gifted students course in the capital, but ultimately I was too young to go on my own, and my parents couldnt afford coarse + staying in Dublin for three weeks
In the end I fell behind in one subject, and even now, have still not caught up despite working hard on it
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Old November 20th, 2010, 02:32 PM   #59 (permalink)
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child abuse is very very ugly and criminal!

but before you call wolf.. you better be 100% it has big teeth, big ears, and fury all over! because it would get ugly when you are wrong! for all involved!
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Old November 20th, 2010, 02:40 PM   #60 (permalink)
 
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it is....

but equating spanking with child abuse is wrong
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Old November 20th, 2010, 09:26 PM   #61 (permalink)
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I have to say, I'm about sick of people in this country claiming that spanking and using a belt are abuse. They are not. Simple as that.

You CAN be abusive with it, but it in and of itself is not abuse.
I think maybe the next time you get a sub-par review, maybe your boss should turn you over his knee and hit you with his belt.

Would you call that abuse?

Just curious.
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Old November 20th, 2010, 09:32 PM   #62 (permalink)
 
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fallacy....
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Old November 20th, 2010, 09:35 PM   #63 (permalink)
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fallacy....
Why?
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Old November 20th, 2010, 11:00 PM   #64 (permalink)
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I spank my child, and I don't care what anyone has to say about it. I was spanked when I was a child, and it was effective, and I do the same.
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Old November 20th, 2010, 11:12 PM   #65 (permalink)
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I spank my child, and I don't care what anyone has to say about it. I was spanked when I was a child, and it was effective, and I do the same.
Mmmhmmm.

And my dad beat the sh*t out of me because that's what his parents had done to him, and it hadn't hurt him any! He deserved it! Kids need a whippin' when they do wrong! It teaches them they shouldn't mouth off to people bigger than they are! Look at him now, a responsible businessman! All because his parents beat responsibility into him! And by god his kids were going to learn the same way!

I won't go into detail what that does to a family, because I'm really not in the mood for it... but spanking your child teaches them that big people can hit them and they can't fight back, and that hitting is a way to solve your problems when you can't think of any other way.

I, on the other hand, have managed to raise four children into adulthood without beating any of them. Two of them are veterans, one is working in a tech field and his first baby on the way, and my youngest is in his junior year of high school with a current B average.

It is not necessary to hit your children to get your point across. All you do is perpetuate violence. Agree with me or not, but I came out of that kind of home and I still live with the scars that it gave me to this day. You may not think you're damaging your child... and you may not be. But what if you are? Is it worth it?
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Old November 20th, 2010, 11:23 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Mmmhmmm.

And my dad beat the sh*t out of me because that's what his parents had done to him, and it hadn't hurt him any! He deserved it! Kids need a whippin' when they do wrong! It teaches them they shouldn't mouth off to people bigger than they are! Look at him now, a responsible businessman! All because his parents beat responsibility into him! And by god his kids were going to learn the same way!

I won't go into detail what that does to a family, because I'm really not in the mood for it... but spanking your child teaches them that big people can hit them and they can't fight back, and that hitting is a way to solve your problems when you can't think of any other way.

I, on the other hand, have managed to raise four children into adulthood without beating any of them. Two of them are veterans, one is working in a tech field and his first baby on the way, and my youngest is in his junior year of high school with a current B average.

It is not necessary to hit your children to get your point across. All you do is perpetuate violence. Agree with me or not, but I came out of that kind of home and I still live with the scars that it gave me to this day. You may not think you're damaging your child... and you may not be. But what if you are? Is it worth it?
I was raised in a family where both, my sister and I, received physical punishment, and there is nothing wrong with our family at all. I was glad that they did it now that I look back, because there were times that I definately needed it.

As someone already mentioned, there is a difference between a spanking and an outright beating. If you truly have scars from the beatings you received from your dad, he should be in jail. Spankings don't leave scars, beatings do.
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Old November 21st, 2010, 10:33 AM   #67 (permalink)
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I was raised in a family where both, my sister and I, received physical punishment, and there is nothing wrong with our family at all. I was glad that they did it now that I look back, because there were times that I definately needed it.

As someone already mentioned, there is a difference between a spanking and an outright beating. If you truly have scars from the beatings you received from your dad, he should be in jail. Spankings don't leave scars, beatings do.
I'm not talking about physical scars.
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Old November 21st, 2010, 12:39 PM   #68 (permalink)
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I'm not talking about physical scars.
Well, apparently something was wrong that made it a memory. Like I said, when spanking is used properly as a punishment, there is nothing wrong with it.
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 09:19 AM   #69 (permalink)
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I seriously think that the mentality of the "parents" in this thread is why the united states eduction system is 18th out of the 24 first world nations.
Sure, it's the parents... not the system that seeks to cater more to the self-interest of teachers than the actual teaching needs of children...


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We are also 20th out of 21 first world nations in children well-being.
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The U.S. was last among the 21 nations for health and safety, measured by rates of infant mortality, low birth weight, immunization, and deaths from accidents and injuries.
None of which has ANYTHING to do with education. Infant Mortality, and deaths from accidents/injuries can both be explained by how spread out our population is.

Unless you want to force people to move into cities where they are closer to hospitals and emergency medical care, then this isn't going to change anytime soon.

And you can't force people to immunize their children. It's just not something that our constitution allows.

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If you really think you are correct, you are part of the problem, not the cure.
If you think that reading statistics tells you anything about parents and parenting... you've got so much to learn it really isn't funny.
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 09:36 AM   #70 (permalink)
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I think maybe the next time you get a sub-par review, maybe your boss should turn you over his knee and hit you with his belt.

Would you call that abuse?

Just curious.
Your boss brings a Thanksgiving dinner. You don't like it so you decide you will celebrate with them and then pick something up for lunch. Your boss confines you to a room without eating.

Abuse right?

Or how about your boss preventing you from watching TV at night because of your poor performance at work?

Or your boss destroying your home computer because of your poor performance at work?

An adult treating another adult like a child... is abuse (at least when the other adult isn't willing... I mean, there are some fetishes out there).

Your analogy falls apart as soon as you include two adults.
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 11:33 AM   #71 (permalink)
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Your boss brings a Thanksgiving dinner. You don't like it so you decide you will celebrate with them and then pick something up for lunch. Your boss confines you to a room without eating.

Abuse right?

Or how about your boss preventing you from watching TV at night because of your poor performance at work?

Or your boss destroying your home computer because of your poor performance at work?

An adult treating another adult like a child... is abuse (at least when the other adult isn't willing... I mean, there are some fetishes out there).

Your analogy falls apart as soon as you include two adults.
i would so abuse the douche-bag that does that to me!
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 11:52 AM   #72 (permalink)
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I say question him, go to his school, question the teachers, try to get to the root of the problem, but if all else fails, spare the rod spoil the child.
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 12:04 PM   #73 (permalink)
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I am not a parent but, I am a realist. Let me start by saying, I have never done well in school and it hurts to this day why.

Next let me say that, as children get older you need to treat them more like adults. 10 is still young enough to recieve a whipping for lying and hiding things. Infact as a child that was one of the few things I recieved a belt for.

A child is not an adult. 10 is still a child. My parents ALWAYS tried to reason with us as adults as we got older by 12 they realized there were better ways than a belt.. However, my parents wipped us once good at a young age and we knew from then on. "AVOID BELT!".

I am a firm believer that if I have children, at least until they are older, the belt will be used. Usually a last resort but, it will be used.

Next.. Look man, you seem like a good person, your looking for advice and actually trying..

LIke the others said, this is a sign you need to check out whats going on and get invovled with your kid.

I Have minor dyslexia.. just enough to occassionally get things backwards.. and it coupled with a minor amount of A.D.D. have really screwed up my GPA.

My parents ignored both of those facts my entir life. THey have berated me, said I am worthless if I don't bring them up, and made me feel like crap.

My mom knew I had issues with dyslexia but, assumed because, I finally got the 9 and the P right in first grade "I was cured!".

All my life, I've never been able to pay attention to anything hardly.. In math I lose attention for a brief second and lose my place in a problem and give up because, I was tired of restarting.

I have been in college a long time now. Still tyring to get out.. I am giving up on calculus which sucks! I hate it! but, I also need to get out soon...

I resent my parents a lot for never payin attention.

INfact the ONLY time my parents cared was when they got the report card and saw I was failing.. I remember my mom "I AM SO EMBARRASSED" she yelled.. THen picked up the phone to clal her freinds and tell them! Words can not expresss my outrage over the way I have been perpetually screwed over because of my parents academically.

I don't think your son has these issue's.. but, what I am trying to say is pay more attention throughout.. there is obviously a problem and your not catching it yet.. so pay attention. It could be a bully, a bad teacher (those do happen) or any number of things.. You can't *JUST* care on the day you get the report card.

Hell if my parents were remotely invovled they may have seen I really need more help than I was getting..

Or they may have beat me thinking i was intentionally not paying attention.

Either way, I hate them for it. My brother is 17 and doing calc in highschool.. I had to drop calc last semester and I won't be retaking it (changing concentration in my major).. ALthough I really, really wish I could..

I hate finally understanding how important math is.. and having to give up on it.
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 12:49 PM   #74 (permalink)
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I am not a parent but, I am a realist. Let me start by saying, I have never done well in school and it hurts to this day why.

Next let me say that, as children get older you need to treat them more like adults. 10 is still young enough to recieve a whipping for lying and hiding things. Infact as a child that was one of the few things I recieved a belt for.

A child is not an adult. 10 is still a child. My parents ALWAYS tried to reason with us as adults as we got older by 12 they realized there were better ways than a belt.. However, my parents wipped us once good at a young age and we knew from then on. "AVOID BELT!".

I am a firm believer that if I have children, at least until they are older, the belt will be used. Usually a last resort but, it will be used.

Next.. Look man, you seem like a good person, your looking for advice and actually trying..

LIke the others said, this is a sign you need to check out whats going on and get invovled with your kid.

I Have minor dyslexia.. just enough to occassionally get things backwards.. and it coupled with a minor amount of A.D.D. have really screwed up my GPA.

My parents ignored both of those facts my entir life. THey have berated me, said I am worthless if I don't bring them up, and made me feel like crap.

My mom knew I had issues with dyslexia but, assumed because, I finally got the 9 and the P right in first grade "I was cured!".

All my life, I've never been able to pay attention to anything hardly.. In math I lose attention for a brief second and lose my place in a problem and give up because, I was tired of restarting.

I have been in college a long time now. Still tyring to get out.. I am giving up on calculus which sucks! I hate it! but, I also need to get out soon...

I resent my parents a lot for never payin attention.

INfact the ONLY time my parents cared was when they got the report card and saw I was failing.. I remember my mom "I AM SO EMBARRASSED" she yelled.. THen picked up the phone to clal her freinds and tell them! Words can not expresss my outrage over the way I have been perpetually screwed over because of my parents academically.

I don't think your son has these issue's.. but, what I am trying to say is pay more attention throughout.. there is obviously a problem and your not catching it yet.. so pay attention. It could be a bully, a bad teacher (those do happen) or any number of things.. You can't *JUST* care on the day you get the report card.

Hell if my parents were remotely invovled they may have seen I really need more help than I was getting..

Or they may have beat me thinking i was intentionally not paying attention.

Either way, I hate them for it. My brother is 17 and doing calc in highschool.. I had to drop calc last semester and I won't be retaking it (changing concentration in my major).. ALthough I really, really wish I could..

I hate finally understanding how important math is.. and having to give up on it.
You may not be a parent, but you do have a pretty good grasp on what it takes.

To the OP, your family is what you have. This life is about the legacy you leave behind, nothing more. When all is said and done, do you want to look back and say, "I had to work when my son was having trouble," or "When my son needed me, I was there." I'm not saying you're not there, because as the post above, I'm a realist also. I know you have to support your family, but when your family needs you, it's time to step up. You need to take control.
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