Someone on another forum made an interesting point that apple can't go after google for this because technically google isn't selling the android os. They may be making money from it, but only indirectly.
Now, all htc is truly designing is the hardware. If anything sense ui brings android farther from the iphone os than stock android is. Nobody is really making money off of android directly, so technically they're not gaining anything off of infringing on any of the iphone's patents.
Just interesting from a conceptual point of view. I'm sure none of that matters in a legal sense lol.
Device(s): Me-EVO 4G //
Wife-EVO 4G //
Son-LG Opt S
Thanks: 393
Thanked 243 Times in 159 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGalt
Someone on another forum made an interesting point that apple can't go after google for this because technically google isn't selling the android os. They may be making money from it, but only indirectly.
Now, all htc is truly designing is the hardware. If anything sense ui brings android farther from the iphone os than stock android is. Nobody is really making money off of android directly, so technically they're not gaining anything off of infringing on any of the iphone's patents.
Just interesting from a conceptual point of view. I'm sure none of that matters in a legal sense lol.
Technically, Google is making money directly from HTC, Motorola, and from whoever else they license the OS. True, they are not selling it directly to consumers, but they are making money from it.
Plenty of people are making money off of Android directly. Was the Android OS not a selling point to you when you bought your phone? If there is any possibility that someone somewhere would have switched to AT&T to pick up an iphone IF Android had not existed, then there has been a direct gain made by offering Android, and a subsequent loss to Apple.
Last edited by CriticalCritic; March 2nd, 2010 at 10:09 PM.
The Following User Says Thank You to CriticalCritic For This Useful Post:
From my understanding Google is not selling the license. As is typical of Google's business model, they are simply concerned with driving traffic through their stuff and selling ads. If that means giving away things like phone OS's, well so be it.
And you would have a tough time proving that people are directly making money off of Android (besides app developers). While Android might be part of the attraction for a particular phone, so might be a number of other things. To say that Android was directly taking money from apple one would have to prove that it is specifically the android OS, and not something else (e.g. a preference of having a hardware keyboard, better processor, preference for a particular carrier or simply a disdain for apple), driving people to buy phone X over the iPhone
Again, just playing devil's advocate here. I think the US's patent laws are kind of ridiculous (we have biotech companies that are actually risking people's lives by hiding behind patents)
Last edited by DGalt; March 2nd, 2010 at 10:18 PM.
The Following User Says Thank You to DGalt For This Useful Post:
No it's because HTC doesn't innovate. They just steal tech. HTC deserves what they get and I hope Apple bleeds them dry. For how many of the 20 or so infringements, Apple needs to be compensated for the legitimate ones. For the most part, this doesn't affect our DROIDs. It might affect the operation of Android. We may not see P2Z after all. And the CoolIris gallery app (from 2.1) might be pulled. Those are two things I know are in violation of Apple patents. If Google plays it safe and Motorola too, they'll make sure the next update will be in compliance. Nexus One is actually one of the exhibits in the lawsuit. Google phone will likely die as a result of this case.
I think you're getting ahead of yourself. The case was filed today. These sort of suits don't usually get worked out in the short term. I doubt anything is changing anytime soon.
Multitouch (or P2Z) isn't even one of the patents involved here. Apple's MT patent from a month or two ago is weak and they know it. They won't bother as too many devices are using MT already. That might be the root of Apple's hissy fit, but they aren't officially claiming that.
The gallery is a bit more sticky. The Apple patent I think you're thinking of is for the reordering of rows of icons, right? What it seems to talk about is changing the order when an icon is added or removed (#7,362,331). I don't think the gallery does that. Even the rest of that patent is just about scaling and such. I don't think it applies.
When all is said and done in a few years, Google might end up changing a few minor UI things. By then, new UIs might already be commonplace. HTC didn't create Android so I imagine they won't end up getting screwed here. But who knows? Maybe tomorrow Google will shut down Android and all our phones will self-destruct.
Technically, Google is making money directly from HTC, Motorola, and from whoever else they license the OS. True, they are not selling it directly to consumers, but they are making money from it.
I believe that this was the appeal of this OS, to the Mobile phone makers, the potential for pure profit on the hardware. Thus the OHA and it's ever growing member list!
Quote:
Originally Posted by CriticalCritic
Plenty of people are making money off of Android directly. Was the Android OS not a selling point to you when you bought your phone? If there is any possibility that someone somewhere would have switched to AT&T to pick up an iphone IF Android had not existed, then there has been a direct gain made by offering Android, and a subsequent loss to Apple.
So True. Every Android based device sold is potential money off of the table, for Apple! This was not an issue with One U.S. carrier and 1-2 phone products that did not make much of a dent in the total market share. But with the current product and vendor announcements for 2010, Android is a potental force to be dealt with!
__________________
"Do, or Do Not! There is no try!" "Droid Does!"
Someone on another forum made an interesting point that apple can't go after google for this because technically google isn't selling the android os. They may be making money from it, but only indirectly.
Now, all htc is truly designing is the hardware. If anything sense ui brings android farther from the iphone os than stock android is. Nobody is really making money off of android directly, so technically they're not gaining anything off of infringing on any of the iphone's patents.
Just interesting from a conceptual point of view. I'm sure none of that matters in a legal sense lol.
Hey I'm making a ton of $$$ off Android... Well not really just a few Bucks here and there, hey It puts gas in my car and gets me some Starbucks coffee every once in a while.
Well we will see in a few months what will happen with all this patent stuff.
For Android stickers and shirts click here.... inkedcity — Home
( before mighty Apple shuts me down )... Yeah right
Somebody needs to put jobs in his place and set him straight. Hes got to be one of the biggest cry babies i ever seen. Hes a smart guy and who shoodnt have respect for him? He made a good product and made alot of money... But now he is jus way out of line. Wen the G1 was first released apple didnt care about android it wasnt until android attacked apple wit the droid does campaign wen apple got mad.. Then android became more Popular and better then apple so Jobs got jealous and since he cant beat us... Sue us Im sure that was plan b but he cant try suin people wen his product sales go down. And not to mention he has the nerve to sue HTC even tho HTC is much more Popular and older then the iphone... If u ask me hes bein a b****
The thing I find strange is that one of the reasons Apple used to have so many fanboys is that it was the tree hugging alternative to the nasty and aggressive Microsoft._But over the last 10 years or so, Apple has turned into a pretty unpleasant. hyper-aggressive megacorps - way worse than MS In the 90s. Shame the fanboys haven't noticed yet
What is the big deal about this? In all likelihood by the time this all gets sorted out we will most likely be using something totally different. This is just a last ditch effort by apple to slow down the droid takeover. I would be surprised to see this actually effect end users. Htc and the other manufacturers will likely have to pay apple some money though. Though I personally feel multitouch is a PITA and a step backwards. I personally love being able to operate the device one handed. Sure multitouch has that wow factor and looks pretty, but overall its just cumbersome. I have both the moment and ipod touch, I would much wrather use the moment for well pretty much everything.
Device(s): Nexus S (rooted), CM 7.1 with Caelum theme.
Thanks: 43
Thanked 76 Times in 55 Posts
As much as this infuriates me since I own a Nexus One (and previously owned a Behold II), I don't think anything will happen in the end. Apple couldn't beat Microsoft, it's doubtful they can overcome Nokia or Palm with their lawsuits against Apple, and in the end, really who cares? Apple is raising a stink for PR. Trying to make themselves look like the victim when they themselves did the same thing to other companies. The entire patent system is flawed and companies like Apple prey on it for their benefit rather than actually doing what the patent system was supposed to do. Everyone is mad about this issue (including me), but really, are they going to come take the phones you bought away from you? Even if in the future there's no support, Apple can't undo what has already been done.
they are scared now, they kept quiet up until the ng Android phones are about to wreck havoc in the smartphone world. Steve knows now he and his "baby" are in real competition and he goes for HTC since Google can take him down, and since he talked Shit to them.
I guess no one will win in the end. They will all have to give in on some parts and win on others. Ultimately they will all end up agreeing, or agreeing to disagree.
__________________
Informative Discussions about Internet Phone and other Communication Technologies.
"Technology is great for one reason, it is constantly growing and each company who makes new advancement or who improve older technology helps make life easier for all of us. Sure I’m not an expert on patent law and I may be a little sarcastic but what I do realize is that Apple is finally loosing a piece of their market share which was once massive and they are now scared that others are beginning to do things better than they are. While they have been keeping the same old technology for years HTC has been putting out about 20 devices a year and is continually making enhancements to each area of their technologies. If we begin allowing people to own or buy broad ideas; technology will be at a constant stand still and we would still be using a Zack Morris flip phone to this day." a piece of a recent article
The Following User Says Thank You to DroidedUp.com For This Useful Post:
Gesture with an icon to unlock a phone on a touchscreen...
There is a requirement for patents that they not be obvious.
This is so obvious that it's not even funny. How else would you unlock a touchscreen? Tapping a message in Morse code?
As has been said, issuing that patent is the same as issuing a patent for unlocking a phone by pressing a button. It's the obvious way to do something.
Steve Jobs patented the obvious, and the patent office let him.
I haven't read through the other patents, but this is ridiculous.
Next they'll let him patent using voice equalization when interpreting voice input.
Like there's another way to do it...
The Following User Says Thank You to byteware For This Useful Post:
Already happening. Nokia will likely win their lawsuit for what Apple's stolen. There's another major player in the mobile device market: Palm. Apple's in deep with tech they've stolen from Palm.
Yes and people SO FORGET THIS FACT! The touch technology started with PALM NOT APPLE.
__________________
I'm loving my new marriage with Android OS
On the contrary, when I owned an iPhone, it made calling people seem fun again. Using my Droid Eris' phone app is opening up a whole new box of lag and pain. HTC's texting app could use a bit of work and optimization as well, especially with regards to attaching images and such. And the Bluetooth stack is unreliable and glitchy compared to the iPhone's.
However, I love Android and the rest of Sense UI more than enough to overlook that.
On-topic:
Software patents are stupid, and horrible for "innovation." Apple is good at polishing, that's what they do, find or take an idea that has potential and spit-shine the crap out of it till it sells, and it sells millions.
I don't get how Apple can do something as great as WebKit...they took KHTML and polished it, optimized it, and released their developments back into the Open Source development stream, and now every good browser uses WebKit...
and then do a 180º and pull this lawsuit off.
But then again, money changes things.
I owned an iPhone and that thing dropped calls like there was no tomorrow. Yes as a search engine and game player it was great but as a phone it suck desert cactus.
That assumes that Apple has not already licensed this technology from Palm.
Im willing to bet they didn't. The Palm pilot pda was out years before an iphone was ever thought of and I'm sure they got all their technology patened before it went out. I think Palm is like well, if they don't mess with us, we wont mess with them. However, if Apple gets froggy, Palm can shut them down.
Device(s): t-mobile g2 (htc hero) sold to brother,
samsung galaxy s rooted and lagfix.
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
THIS IS MADNESS!
i hate apple. childish, i know but tbh i dont care...
i reckon steve has got nexus one but cant work out how to use it because its so advanced compared to the iphone... and the s anfter the 3g means iphone 3gsucks!
childish again...
Why os it that if company A makes a product and company B makes a similar product that if a person buys the product that company B makes then company A thinks that they have lost revenue and then come up with multitude ways to get revenue back or get company B shut down ?
This to me to me is flawed logic . It cannot be known a customer would do if company B's product didn't exist . In the case here if HTC didn't exist I would still never buy an iPhone so whether or not HTC exists or not doesnt guarantee that Apple will get my money instead .
This same argument is used by tons of companies and even governments to force changes when they believe revenues are being funneled to away from their coffers and into sombody else's .
Device(s): Motorola Atrix,
HTC Desire,
Asus EeePad Transformer
Thanks: 6
Thanked 37 Times in 15 Posts
I think IF this comes to court it will take many years, but honestly I think apple will struggle to get any support on this case. Most of their patents that they are quoting are many years old and relate to desktop UIs rather than specifically on smartphones.
Don't think this will have any direct affect for a while to come.
Oh and this is yet another example why I am happy to live this side of the pond. No one in their right mind would try and patent a software feature in the UK, it can't be done because it drives an anti-competitive market and is far too specific.
I wish Apple would just F.O. and die, they are turning a huge number of people in to turtle neck wearing tech elitists.
If I buy a Hamburger from burger king McDonald's hasn't lost money . Burger king hasn't stolen anything . If burger king was shut down and I couldn't get a whopper I still wouldn't go get a big mac , because big macs make me sh*t . McDonald's still won't get my money .
Or how about this logic , here in vancouver there are no turnstiles at skytrain , everyday hundreds of people don't buy tickets . The transit company every year publishes figures showing how much revenue they have lost because of this , usually millions of dollars .
They believe that they would get this money back if there were turnstiles installed .
Again here there is a flaw , no way to know how many if any of the cheaters would still use the system if they were forced to pay , presumably they weren't paying because they had no money so where are the lost millions supposed to come from ?
I don't get it ,
Last edited by 123Steve; March 3rd, 2010 at 02:22 PM.
Nomura: “Typically in a lawsuit, the party to get sued first is the one with deepest pockets — Google in the Android world. But the challenge is Google does not derive any revenues from selling Android phones, and Apple’s competitive-cum-dependent relationship with Google (the iPhone uses Google Maps and Google Search for critical functions) makes it tricky. So, in our view, HTC is a proxy.”
~~~
The Following User Says Thank You to adamajah For This Useful Post:
I agree. I see this blowing over after awhile. Some money might get transferred but I doubt these broad patents would hold up against anything. I mean, one of them mentioned objected-oriented OS. What isn't and OO OS?
Device(s): Incredible, X, Storm 2, Eris', misc BB's and others
Thanks: 22
Thanked 95 Times in 74 Posts
While I think it would be funny to see google buy apple and then shut it down, what would be even better would be for google to buy palm, use palm's patents to sue Apple into oblivion and watch the apple rot in the compost heap of the tech world.
Patent #7,362,331 is the motion physics thing you see in every game. (They are trying to patent damped harmonic motion in interfaces).
Patent #7,479,949 (Controlling by touch gestures) See palm and every prior touch device, they didn't invent any new gestures or otherwise here.
Patent #7,657,849: broad / obvious (unlocking by gesture). If they didn't invent gestures, then performing [action] by gesture is not special and Nokia had unlock prior to them.
Patent #7,469,381: Scrolling with underdamped harmonic motion, see all games consoles for examples of stuff scrolling in with underdamped harmonic motion.
Patent #6,424,354: , F*** off they did not invent that in 2002, it is the listener model of every clique C++ book.
Patent #7,383,453: Power saving by reducing voltage to command process section of processor. Not the inventor.
Patent #7,362,331 is the motion physics thing you see in every game. (They are trying to patent damped harmonic motion in interfaces).
Patent #7,479,949 (Controlling by touch gestures) See palm and every prior touch device, they didn't invent any new gestures or otherwise here.
Patent #7,657,849: broad / obvious (unlocking by gesture). If they didn't invent gestures, then performing [action] by gesture is not special and Nokia had unlock prior to them.
Patent #7,469,381: Scrolling with underdamped harmonic motion, see all games consoles for examples of stuff scrolling in with underdamped harmonic motion.
Patent #6,424,354: , F*** off they did not invent that in 2002, it is the listener model of every clique C++ book.
Patent #7,383,453: Power saving by reducing voltage to command process section of processor. Not the inventor.
Unfortunately you don't have to be the inventor, just the first to patent it. I like everyone else, hope Apple implodes over this, but that's a fact. They should never have been granted the patents to begin with in my book, so we have our lovely US patent department to thank for this mess.
Apple knows they are screwed. Why? Simple....they know android is a threat and going after the underdog. They are suing now because N1 in a few weeks....iPhone biggest threat. File suit now and slow momentum of android devices. Apple picks on HTC because they are small, but I don't see Google stepping aside. I see them filing countersuit and bury those apple pricks.
__________________
I have a love/hate relationship with Android...I love the system and hate that not everyone has an Android phone.
Unfortunately you don't have to be the inventor, just the first to patent it. I like everyone else, hope Apple implodes over this, but that's a fact. They should never have been granted the patents to begin with in my book, so we have our lovely US patent department to thank for this mess.
Indeed. Apple havent invented anything. And as Winmob etc have had such interfaces before which they will have patented, makes you wonder how Apple managed to get their own patents for exactly the same thing.
Like the ipad. I mean, how can they patent a tablet PC that the likes of HP have been churning out for years?
Unfortunately you don't have to be the inventor, just the first to patent it. I like everyone else, hope Apple implodes over this, but that's a fact. They should never have been granted the patents to begin with in my book, so we have our lovely US patent department to thank for this mess.
The US Patent Office grants most stuff, and expects the courts to sort it out. It's stupid, but that's how it goes. Patents can be invalidated though if prior art can be found. In most of these cases, there is prior art. That's why this is a risky course of action for Apple.
The US Patent Office grants most stuff, and expects the courts to sort it out. It's stupid, but that's how it goes. Patents can be invalidated though if prior art can be found. In most of these cases, there is prior art. That's why this is a risky course of action for Apple.
I realize this, it's just a big cluster-*bleep* how things work. I think I'm going to patent nose picking, I can then sue every human being on the face of the planet for royalties.
Device(s): Incredible, X, Storm 2, Eris', misc BB's and others
Thanks: 22
Thanked 95 Times in 74 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by micromack
I realize this, it's just a big cluster-*bleep* how things work. I think I'm going to patent nose picking, I can then sue every human being on the face of the planet for royalties.
The thing I find strange is that one of the reasons Apple used to have so many fanboys is that it was the tree hugging alternative to the nasty and aggressive Microsoft._But over the last 10 years or so, Apple has turned into a pretty unpleasant. hyper-aggressive megacorps - way worse than MS In the 90s. Shame the fanboys haven't noticed yet
So who to hate next.....first it was Ibm, then Ms now it is Apple....who do we hate next? Google? Htc? Motorola?
Apple is just a company, started out in Jobs' garage. Google started out small too, two kids in college I believe. At what point does a company become evil? How many emplyees must they have? How much money? How many patents?
Google would be doing the same if the tables were reversed, I promise you. You think google and htc do not have patents? You think hey would not defend them? Really?
If you dont like the laws, change them , get involved with your government.
No one said a word a few years ago when these were filed, now all of a sudden evryone wants to challange Apple for this. Apple had the foresight, Google, Htc etc did not.
This case happwns to be apple, but it could be anyone and as long as it is legal i will defend them.
Last edited by bbrosen; March 3rd, 2010 at 06:33 PM.
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to bbrosen For This Useful Post:
I never understood this kind of stuff. Pinch to zoom, so apple came up with that for mobile phones...so what. So no one else can use it now? It's like saying hey guys, we have this great new advance in technology, but you can't use it at all in any of your technology.
While pinch to zoom and some other UI gestures that first appeared on the iPhone may seem intuitive now, they're not "obvious" and Apple was the first to develop the idea (presumably spending a good chunk of R&D money in the process).
So it is reasonable for Apple to get paid by other companies to use these innovations, as long as the licensing fee is reasonable. As long as they're not blocking competing products from the market -- that's anti-competitive.
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to srothkin For This Useful Post:
So who to hate next.....first it was Ibm, then Ms now it is Apple....who do we hate next? Google? Htc? Motorola?
Apple is just a company, started out in Jobs' garage. Google started out small too, two kids in college I believe. At what point does a company become evil? How many emplyees must they have? How much money? How many patents?
Google would be doing the same if the tables were reversed, I promise you. You think google and htc do not have patents? You think hey would not defend them? Really?
If you dont like the laws, change them , get involved with your government.
No one said a word a few years ago when these were filed, now all of a sudden evryone wants to challange Apple for this. Apple had the foresight, Google, Htc etc did not.
This case happwns to be apple, but it could be anyone and as long as it is legal i will defend them.
I'll take a stab at this, all the companies you mentioned, yes, started small, and were basically a bunch of nobodies, trying to create something that would change the future, whether it be a OS, advanced search engine, or advanced computer hardware. None-the-less, these companies started and were able to succeed because they had the freedom to do so. Let's use google for an example.
Yahoo didn't sue Google for search engine patent enfringment as if they're the only company in the world allowed to create a web search engine. they let them compete, because that's how our markets create competition, it's called "a free market". Now you ask why is Apple Evil, along with Microsoft and the others? Who the hell is Apple to believe they can sue somebody for using a icon on their touch device to unlock it? That technology has been around long before iphone. You see they're evil when they block someone else from having success because they're greedy. Nokia didn't sue apple for stealing things they developed. In my opinion, Apple used to stand for freedom to bring great ideas to market, they've now flushed that and joined the ranks of Microsoft for being a greedy corporate joke. Bottom line, they sat on the iphone, let development slip and got fat pockets, now that the rest of the world is catching up, they're panicing. Screw Apple!
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to micromack For This Useful Post:
yes but did Yahoo have any patents protecting them?
yes true lots of things were invented by other people. Alexander bell did not invent the telephone, Elisha Gray did, but bell patented it first. So in legal terms it matters who patents first. It's our law. Like i said those who complain, change the law. No one said a word when apple filed these patents, why not? patent filings are public information. I am willing to bet even if anyone of you saw one of these patents the day they were filed, you would not have cared a wit. Ill bet good money on that.
No one is complaining about any of Google's patents, why? what if they were to defend one of their patents? they would you know. Look, it's a free country, hate who you want for what ever reasons, some people posting here may be kids, teenagers, and may not understand a lot of this and how the grown up world works. If any of you here are developers, and want to do so to support yourselves and your families, would you not want to protect your intellectual property? it all seems so silly for everyone to say how stupid it is and blah blah blah, but this is about peoples property, that they legally own now, whine all you want, it won't change that fact.
Besides, given the big possibility for a big time negative pall it could cast over the company, do you think they would do it if they felt it was frivulous? seems they are taking this pretty serious risk to their reputation for in some peoples words "just to be stupid"
Know what, if apple really does not have a case they will lose, and Htc and Google et all will be vindicated.
Yes i am a fan of apple, so what? i also like Google. i use Google chrome, gmail, Google voice, google search..i love their stuff, really do. One of the reasons i decided to try Android. It works pretty well with Google services.
Now I dislike google for the politics they run with, but it is not enough to stop me from using their products, for some it could be a deciding factor, to each their own i guess.
Last edited by bbrosen; March 3rd, 2010 at 08:58 PM.
Device(s): Incredible, X, Storm 2, Eris', misc BB's and others
Thanks: 22
Thanked 95 Times in 74 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbrosen
@micro
yes but did Yahoo have any patents protecting them?
yes true lots of things were invented by other people. Alexander bell did not invent the telephone, Elisha Gray did, but bell patented it first. So in legal terms it matters who patents first. It's our law. Like i said those who complain, change the law. No one said a word when apple filed these patents, why not? patent filings are public information. I am willing to bet even if anyone of you saw one of these patents the day they were filed, you would not have cared a wit. Ill bet good money on that.
No one is complaining about any of Google's patents, why? what if they were to defend one of their patents? they would you know. Look, it's a free country, hate who you want for what ever reasons, some people posting here may be kids, teenagers, and may not understand a lot of this and how the grown up world works. If any of you here are developers, and want to do so to support yourselves and your families, would you not want to protect your intellectual property? it all seems so silly for everyone to say how stupid it is and blah blah blah, but this is about peoples property, that they legally own now, whine all you want, it won't change that fact.
Besides, given the big possibility for a big time negative pall it could cast over the company, do you think they would do it if they felt it was frivulous? seems they are taking this pretty serious risk to their reputation for in some peoples words "just to be stupid"
Know what, if apple really does not have a case they will lose, and Htc and Google et all will be vindicated.
Yes i am a fan of apple, so what? i also like Google. i use Google chrome, gmail, Google voice, google search..i love their stuff, really do. One of the reasons i decided to try Android. It works pretty well with Google services.
Now I dislike google for the politics they run with, but it is not enough to stop me from using their products, for some it could be a deciding factor, to each their own i guess.
yeah ok, but Bell and grey were rushing to the patent office the SAME FREEKIN DAY! Bell did not patent the telephone a decade after grey invented it, produced it and sold it like it appears Apple has done with a couple of their "patents".
The Following User Says Thank You to gruss For This Useful Post:
Well not really just a few Bucks here and there, hey It puts gas in my car and gets me some Starbucks coffee every once in a while. 
I think it would shock us all if are phones had to appear in court what would they say.
