I think all this mess is because they allow such general patents. It shouldn't be that generalized. Like if you have a software that you patent, how it was exactly written could be patented, but with some degree of variations to such programming should be allowed. If you think about copy rights for books, it should exactly be how it should be with patents. One example would be, you can have the pinch to zoom app but if it was written in a different way (think about flowcharts), then it should be allowed. This promote not only innovation but also prevents monopoly for such general (vague) patents.
I agree with you Caloy. Patents need to be specific. I'm all for protecting intellectual property, it can take a lot of money to develop something, but that protection can't prevent someone from achieving the same results in a different way.
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Funny how just now everyone starts screaming about patents. We have had patents for a very long time, but only when it hits home do people complain and cry.
No one said a word back when these were filed, how come? Look, I love Apple products and have an HTC Hero, but fair is fair. These were legally patented years ago, and Apple, specifically jobs, said that they"Patented the Hell out of this thing" the very first time he held the iphone up. Seems this is just an excuse to pile onto another "evil" corporation. But hey it's alright, your kids will be screaming from the rooftop the "evils" of google, htc and will call for the companies and android to fail, apple is just the "evil corp du jour" right now.
Funny how just now everyone starts screaming about patents. We have had patents for a very long time, but only when it hits home do people complain and cry.
The main bone of contention here is the perceived generality of the patents in question, not the veracity of patents in general.
the point is that the patents in question are complete crap and vague.
i just patented the letter E on keyboards. please refrain from using and making keyboards with this letter, thanks.
Patenting the letter "E" would be very specific so not a good example. What Apple did was get patents for the concept of having individuals keys on a keyboard. They didn't invent it, the concept is common knowledge but by golly they'll sue you if you get in their way.
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Originally Posted by mrmojoz
Patenting the letter "E" would be very specific so not a good example. What Apple did was get patents for the concept of having individuals keys on a keyboard. They didn't invent it, the concept is common knowledge but by golly they'll sue you if you get in their way.
But they did patent using a finger gesture, more particularly, a swipe across the screen. That should never have been allowed through, that would be like patenting using an up and down motion to type.
i still have my iphone, just not activated anymore.and the only crying i see is about some company who patented somethings years ago and no one said a word about it then...sorry google is late to the game.
yes, I am sorry I spent my money on the Hero. I needed a phone that could multitask, not roll over and die. This anti apple is getting old. how about working to make android better and you might have more people on the android team.
I have been working like a fiend on my phone to get this thing to work, for 3 months. i want to love the hero as well as android, I really do, but when the darn thing don't work, it's hard to feel the love. combine that with no carrier, htc or Google support it does not bode well for me, the end user.
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Again, many of the patents are very recent, too recent in fact. HTC was already using the technologies in question when the patent was filed.
And the object based gui patent didn't hold water when they tried to sue MS in the 90's, why should it now?
As far as anything patent wise dealing with touchscreen, that existed before Apple patented it as well. Most of these are a case of a company filing applications on things they did not develop because they found out no one else had. Where in the spirit or intent of the patent law is this right?
I am all for reasonable and justifiable patents, these are not that. The reason many of these did not get denied is because there is an objection process, and if no one is looking when it goes up for publication there is no objection. Personally I feel the applicant should have to provide rock solid proof of the uniqueness of whatever is being patented and it is not something already in existence.
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If Google sees this as a malicious attempt to Hinder Android then they may be tempted to pull all support for the iPhone in future. No more Google Maps, Google streetview, Google navigation etc. If that happens then the iPhone is history.
I ran this potential scenario past a few of my iPhone owning, Apple fan, colleagues and even they admitted they'd switch to Android if that happened.
Cool hardware only goes so far. In the information age it's the information itself that's all important...and Google has way, way more of that than Apple does.
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Maybe Google can patent the finger gesture involving the middle finger, and then give it to apple at cost hehehe
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i still have my iphone - go back to it if you desire
yes, I am sorry I spent my money on the Hero - sell it then I needed a phone that could multitask, not roll over and die. This anti apple is getting old. how about working to make android better and you might have more people on the android team. how about you give Android as much time as you have given Apple, then compare
I have been working like a fiend on my phone to get this thing to work, for 3 months.3 months to get a phone working? perhaps the iPhone is more suitable for your needs. i want to love the hero as well as android, I really do, but when the darn thing don't work, it's hard to feel the love. combine that with no carrier, htc or Google support it does not bode well for me, the end user. i kinda smell something trollish
i typed a ton more but deleted it. i didnt want to be mean or feel like im bullying. dont like it? do something to make you happy then... are you seriously that attached to your phone that it is a source of unhappiness in your life? DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT rather then kinda whine about it on an internet forum.
sorry it that was rude or mean
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i typed a ton more but deleted it. i didnt want to be mean or feel like im bullying. dont like it? do something to make you happy then... are you seriously that attached to your phone that it is a source of unhappiness in your life? DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT rather then kinda whine about it on an internet forum.
sorry it that was rude or mean
Bamsy, I don't think you're being rude or mean at all. Actually, I think your comments were pretty humorous. It's the other guy that was being rude. I've never been in an iPhone forum, but if I even did go in one, I'd never leave anti-iPhone comments and brag about Android.
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Originally Posted by bbrosen
i still have my iphone, just not activated anymore.and the only crying i see is about some company who patented somethings years ago and no one said a word about it then...sorry google is late to the game.
yes, I am sorry I spent my money on the Hero. I needed a phone that could multitask, not roll over and die. This anti apple is getting old. how about working to make android better and you might have more people on the android team.
I have been working like a fiend on my phone to get this thing to work, for 3 months. i want to love the hero as well as android, I really do, but when the darn thing don't work, it's hard to feel the love. combine that with no carrier, htc or Google support it does not bode well for me, the end user.
Many of the patents are new, too new in fact. This was a case of Apple filing a patent for something already in widespread use, it is called "Patent Whoring".
As for the older patents let's pick one. I've said it in other posts, the object based gui doesn't hold up, they have already been slapped down on that when they tried to go after MS in the 90's.
I'll freely admit to being anti-Apple, but that dates far back before the iPhone was ever even a dream. Apple owners are the first to point out that MS is a big evil corporation, but they refuse to look in their own backyard. Apple is one of the worst companies when it comes to openness and fair market practices on the planet! And until the Mac's started shipping with Intel processors they were nothing more than overpriced toys, now they are just overpriced computers. Add to that Apple refuses to listen to customer requests about the iPhone, yeah Job's is really looking out for the customer.
Job's is running scared, he is attacking the single largest manufacturer of Android phones which represent a threat to his precious iPhone instead of doing product development and trying to top what is coming out against it.
As far as your Hero, I really can't understand what you mean by "working like a fiend on my phone to get this thing to work", is your phone broken? Other than a few bugs here and there that I remedied quite easily after a little research here and elsewhere and the obvious lack of real sync capability with Outlook (this is a problem with any non-WinMo phone apparently) my phone is working perfectly.
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Apple owners are the first to point out that MS is a big evil corporation, but they refuse to look in their own backyard.
Ding ding ding. Apple users tend to mindlessly hate Microsoft "just because."
Quote:
As far as your Hero, I really can't understand what you mean by "working like a fiend on my phone to get this thing to work", is your phone broken? Other than a few bugs here and there that I remedied quite easily after a little research here and elsewhere and the obvious lack of real sync capability with Outlook (this is a problem with any non-WinMo phone apparently) my phone is working perfectly.
Look at his posts. He's been complaining about his Hero for a while. Either his unit is "special" or he's... well, or he is special.
On the contrary, when I owned an iPhone, it made calling people seem fun again. Using my Droid Eris' phone app is opening up a whole new box of lag and pain. HTC's texting app could use a bit of work and optimization as well, especially with regards to attaching images and such. And the Bluetooth stack is unreliable and glitchy compared to the iPhone's.
However, I love Android and the rest of Sense UI more than enough to overlook that.
On-topic:
Software patents are stupid, and horrible for "innovation." Apple is good at polishing, that's what they do, find or take an idea that has potential and spit-shine the crap out of it till it sells, and it sells millions.
I don't get how Apple can do something as great as WebKit...they took KHTML and polished it, optimized it, and released their developments back into the Open Source development stream, and now every good browser uses WebKit...
and then do a 180º and pull this lawsuit off.
But then again, money changes things.
Since when is making phone calls on ATT fun? You mean the 40% of the time the call actually goes through?
If Google sees this as a malicious attempt to Hinder Android then they may be tempted to pull all support for the iPhone in future. No more Google Maps, Google streetview, Google navigation etc. If that happens then the iPhone is history.
I ran this potential scenario past a few of my iPhone owning, Apple fan, colleagues and even they admitted they'd switch to Android if that happened.
Cool hardware only goes so far. In the information age it's the information itself that's all important...and Google has way, way more of that than Apple does.
But the thing is, apple hardware isn't great, it's never been great. Their video cards are substandard, processors are terrible, and their hardware is just overall lacking.
A bunch of news sites have been playing up a minor item in a Deutsche Bank note to clients about how Apple has a lot more patents than Google or HTC. I have to say, this is one of the most meaningless bits of data out there, and it's getting way too much attention for its import. First of all, it looks like the report counted overall patents -- not even patents just in the spaces where these companies overlap. Second, the number of patents one holds is absolutely meaningless when it comes to actually being able to enforce the patents.
More troubling is the report's conclusion:
"While litigation appears to be an increasingly common cost of doing business," he concludes, "we view Apple's willingness to aggressively defend its patent portfolio favorably and welcome the defense of its IP."
Historically, this is generally not a good sign. It's usually a sign that a company has run into an innovation stumbling block, and doesn't think it can really continue to innovate at the pace the market is expecting, so it seeks to hold back competitors and pump up revenue through litigation, rather than innovation. A smart research report would note that breaking out the offensive patent lawsuits is generally a warning sign. But, then again, this is a research report that thinks the overall number of patents a tech company has is a meaningful metric.
But Apple still makes its products in China too doesn't it?
Im referring mainly to this part:
"We're going to aggressively protect our intellectual property," Obama said. "Our single greatest asset is the innovation and the ingenuity and creativity of the American people...It is essential to our prosperity and it will only become more so in this century. But it's only a competitive advantage if our companies know that someone else can't just steal that idea and duplicate it with cheaper inputs and labor."
Last edited by Slug; March 14th, 2010 at 10:01 PM.
My main problem with Apple is that most of the technology they have patented was already invented or thought of but they were just the first company to use it effectively.
Many of the patents are new, too new in fact. This was a case of Apple filing a patent for something already in widespread use, it is called "Patent Whoring".
As for the older patents let's pick one. I've said it in other posts, the object based gui doesn't hold up, they have already been slapped down on that when they tried to go after MS in the 90's.
I'll freely admit to being anti-Apple, but that dates far back before the iPhone was ever even a dream. Apple owners are the first to point out that MS is a big evil corporation, but they refuse to look in their own backyard. Apple is one of the worst companies when it comes to openness and fair market practices on the planet! And until the Mac's started shipping with Intel processors they were nothing more than overpriced toys, now they are just overpriced computers. Add to that Apple refuses to listen to customer requests about the iPhone, yeah Job's is really looking out for the customer.
Job's is running scared, he is attacking the single largest manufacturer of Android phones which represent a threat to his precious iPhone instead of doing product development and trying to top what is coming out against it.
As far as your Hero, I really can't understand what you mean by "working like a fiend on my phone to get this thing to work", is your phone broken? Other than a few bugs here and there that I remedied quite easily after a little research here and elsewhere and the obvious lack of real sync capability with Outlook (this is a problem with any non-WinMo phone apparently) my phone is working perfectly.
I guess it is broken, as i cannot multiask, nor is youtube app working nor does the default weather update like it should. Working like a fiend to root this thing, to make it run smooth, etc etc.
truly I would like to be able to multitask without this thing lagging and freezing, I could live without the rest for now i guess. I would also like to use this thing without having to fiddle with it and change and experiment with settings and new programs from the market just to make it work like it should. All i ask. I am not a 16 year old kid who lives with mom and dad and has all the time in the world to play with it, i need it for work. Only rerason i am here is to find answers, and when i see pig piling well, I will call people out on it. I have the hero, it's got problems, sorry , glad yours works. there are far moore people complaining about apple and some others than people complaining about android. So I am not sure why it upsets you so bad.
I will defend any company whether it is apple, Ms or HTC when it warrants it. I defended htc's right to sue about their weather app too.
some people do not mind having these problems with their phones, but I paid a lot of money for mine. Others are able to root their phone, tho one should not have too just to make it work correctly. If I could I would root, it seems to be the end all be all answers to the problems with my phone.
some one informed me they have their cellular south phone rooted and I am waiting to see if they will tell me how they did it. Very few have done so without problems with features, he says all is working correctly, so we will see, hope it's true and hope he shares how he did it.
I didn't read the entire thread (shame on me), but I have been reading and listening (podcasts) and have listened to many different opinion about this. It seems the consensus is that Apple is screwing up with these lawsuits. Even Apple fanboys agree (Leo Laporte). They say if Apple wins, and HTC phones are stopped from coming into the US, there will be a lot of pissed off people. At the same time, if Apple looses, people will start to question Apple's intention with the lawsuit (ie. a frivolous or "marketing spun" lawsuit). I, like many others agree...This one is kinda a loose loose for Apple...
I guess it is broken, as i cannot multiask, nor is youtube app working nor does the default weather update like it should. Working like a fiend to root this thing, to make it run smooth, etc etc.
truly I would like to be able to multitask without this thing lagging and freezing, I could live without the rest for now i guess. I would also like to use this thing without having to fiddle with it and change and experiment with settings and new programs from the market just to make it work like it should. All i ask. I am not a 16 year old kid who lives with mom and dad and has all the time in the world to play with it, i need it for work.
The assumption that anyone who knows how to use their Android phone is a "16 year old kid who lives with mom and dad" is amusing. You know, the only people who have to do that are usually very, very insecure.
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The assumption that anyone who knows how to use their Android phone is a "16 year old kid who lives with mom and dad" is amusing. You know, the only people who have to do that are usually very, very insecure.
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Originally Posted by bbrosen
I guess it is broken, as i cannot multiask, nor is youtube app working nor does the default weather update like it should. Working like a fiend to root this thing, to make it run smooth, etc etc.
truly I would like to be able to multitask without this thing lagging and freezing, I could live without the rest for now i guess. I would also like to use this thing without having to fiddle with it and change and experiment with settings and new programs from the market just to make it work like it should. All i ask. I am not a 16 year old kid who lives with mom and dad and has all the time in the world to play with it, i need it for work. Only rerason i am here is to find answers, and when i see pig piling well, I will call people out on it. I have the hero, it's got problems, sorry , glad yours works. there are far moore people complaining about apple and some others than people complaining about android. So I am not sure why it upsets you so bad.
I will defend any company whether it is apple, Ms or HTC when it warrants it. I defended htc's right to sue about their weather app too.
some people do not mind having these problems with their phones, but I paid a lot of money for mine. Others are able to root their phone, tho one should not have too just to make it work correctly. If I could I would root, it seems to be the end all be all answers to the problems with my phone.
some one informed me they have their cellular south phone rooted and I am waiting to see if they will tell me how they did it. Very few have done so without problems with features, he says all is working correctly, so we will see, hope it's true and hope he shares how he did it.
I would suggest seeing about a replacement phone. I don't use YouTube so I can't say anything about that, but my weather app functions just fine, and I can multitask with no problems.
I would take more stock in your defense of Apple if it wasn't a case of what I had stated in my previous post. If Apple has a legitimate patent on something that they invented and it is not just a broad description, but rather a detailed specific claim then more power to them. These are vague, patent whore claims many of which were already in use before Apple filed the patent.
I am guessing the feature problems with Cellular South relate to native apps that are the equivalent to the Sprint apps. That is a problem with Cellular South software, not the phone. Although I was not aware that any other carrier had a branded Hero available.
Lastly, I am a 45 year old business owner and use my Hero daily as my main phone, to send and receive e-mails in the field, and numerous other uses.
I think apple is mad because it is loosing sales to HTC due to variety. Apple need to get off their butt and produce more phone that dont look like the iphone. This is just my thought on the matter. It just seem to me that Apple started and stopped with iphone.
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I think apple is mad because it is loosing sales to HTC due to variety. Apple need to get off their butt and produce more phone that dont look like the iphone. This is just my thought on the matter. It just seem to me that Apple started and stopped with iphone.
+1
When all you've got is an apple, the whole world looks like an apple.
On another site someone called it razorburn in reference to the once hot clamshell device that folks simply got tired of.... Best term I have heard for this but yeah, they need to refresh the menu, no matter how much you love something you cant eat it but so many times before ya gots to have a change. They probably know this and are working on it if I had to bet. Meanwhile you have to come up with some method to slow down the competition....
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Originally Posted by crabman
The way I see it just knowing there are patent lawyers tells me there is something fundamentally wrong with the patent process.
Then you don't know much about lawyers. Lawyers+Patent law = property right enforcement. There would be something fundamentally wrong if property rights were not enforced.
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Originally Posted by CriticalCritic
Then you don't know much about lawyers. Lawyers+Patent law = property right enforcement. There would be something fundamentally wrong if property rights were not enforced.
The patent process should not require an attorney, and technically it doesn't, but try getting a patent without one, good luck.
The only time an attorneys services should be required is for enforcement when infringement occurs.
Then you don't know much about lawyers. Lawyers+Patent law = property right enforcement. There would be something fundamentally wrong if property rights were not enforced.
I know too much about lawyers and the opposite is true. There would not be enough work to specialize in patent law if it was just protecting intellectual property and this is not the most important use of patents, its controlling and inhibiting competition. Thats where the meat is and the lions share of billable hours comes from. This is also where the most egregious abuses of the process happen.
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I know too much about lawyers and the opposite is true. There would not be enough work to specialize in patent law if it was just protecting intellectual property and this is not the most important use of patents, its controlling and inhibiting competition. Thats where the meat is and the lions share of billable hours comes from. This is also where the most egregious abuses of the process happen.
What its really about is lawyers sucking up money by doing no real productive kind of work, achieving no real results, and making things cost more for consumers.
the point is that the patents in question are complete crap and vague.
i just patented the letter E on keyboards. please refrain from using and making keyboards with this letter, thanks.
Lipograms may constitute a difficult choice for wording a post on a forum.
Yay I did it.
What I really hate is the patents Apple are using that have literally just come through, like the slide to unlock one. I believe that matured in February, a week before they brought the charges on HTC.
What its really about is lawyers sucking up money by doing no real productive kind of work, achieving no real results, and making things cost more for consumers.
All true except for the productive part. Apples aim is to inhibit competition through force. Their patents are at best weak and mostly BS but they have a lot of money and the prohibitive cost of fighting these battles has already kept some from enabling multi touch and other features. This was their goal, to hinder their competitioin, so they have been productive but I do get what you mean about "real" productive work.
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Originally Posted by SamuraiBigEd
The only time an attorneys services should be required is for enforcement when infringement occurs.
Agreed. Except I would also include they they are needed for defense against accusations of infringement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by crabman
I know too much about lawyers and the opposite is true. There would not be enough work to specialize in patent law if it was just protecting intellectual property...
I never said that was all it was. But still property right enforcement is still a necessity and inherently demands that Lawyers be in this field. Of course there are a few unintended "abuses" though (if you want to call it that).
Quote:
Originally Posted by crabman
...this is not the most important use of patents, its controlling and inhibiting competition. Thats where the meat is and the lions share of billable hours comes from. This is also where the most egregious abuses of the process happen.
So you're saying that if you spent $X,XXX,XXX.XX developing something that you were going to sell... you would be perfectly fine with someone else jumping in, ripping off your work, and selling the product for the same price (or less) than you for a pure profit. While you are busy trying to recoup the costs of development?
The most important use of patents is to protect the rights of the entrepreneur/developer. As you can derive from my previous example, if there were no enforceable patent laws in place, you would have absolutely NO reason to take the risk in developing a new product. The costs would far exceed the benefits (if there were any net benefits). ALL entrepreneurial endeavors, let alone the new technological developments, would cease to exist and our nation's wealth would quickly decline as a result (or best case scenario it would be 100% stagnant).
Sure, in order to protect the interests of the developer there is a necessary Limited amount of time where competition is inhibited (to an extent) by those patents. And the lion's share of billable hours comes from the marginal differences that copycats try to use to get around those patents. But I'm happy to put up with some marginal issues with the patent system if it means our national economy doesn't come to a screeching and irreparable halt. Aren't you?
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Agreed. Except I would also include they they are needed for defense against accusations of infringement.
I never said that was all it was. But still property right enforcement is still a necessity and inherently demands that Lawyers be in this field. Of course there are a few unintended "abuses" though (if you want to call it that).
So you're saying that if you spent $X,XXX,XXX.XX developing something that you were going to sell... you would be perfectly fine with someone else jumping in, ripping off your work, and selling the product for the same price (or less) than you for a pure profit. While you are busy trying to recoup the costs of development?
The most important use of patents is to protect the rights of the entrepreneur/developer. As you can derive from my previous example, if there were no enforceable patent laws in place, you would have absolutely NO reason to take the risk in developing a new product. The costs would far exceed the benefits (if there were any net benefits). ALL entrepreneurial endeavors, let alone the new technological developments, would cease to exist and our nation's wealth would quickly decline as a result (or best case scenario it would be 100% stagnant).
Sure, in order to protect the interests of the developer there is a necessary Limited amount of time where competition is inhibited (to an extent) by those patents. And the lion's share of billable hours comes from the marginal differences that copycats try to use to get around those patents. But I'm happy to put up with some marginal issues with the patent system if it means our national economy doesn't come to a screeching and irreparable halt. Aren't you?
Yeah but apples patents are vague garbage at best, and I have yet to see one they actually invented themselves.
I completely agree that most of them are BS and go completely against the purpose of patent law. It is abuse, but it's going to happen... especially in an area such as patent law that often depends on arguing subjective micro-margins of differentiation. But nonetheless... Eff Apple.
I am not against someone protecting their intellectual property that is fair and reasonable however the bulk of billable hours has nothing to do with protecting intellectual property. Most of those marginal differences you talk about are patent lawyers coming up with bogus patents to protect a companies position in a market or service but without any real substance, very much like the subject of this thread. The copycats you are talking about for the most part are the companies that have hired patent lawyers for this purpose. This is the bulk of all billable hours, this kind of work. It sounds like we are not going to agree. Last word is yours.
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