Eff you Apple. Your biggest contribution to the mobile phone was adding a shopping cart. Quit holding up progress and I hope you get sued to oblivion by Palm and HTC who were making kickass smart phones long before the iPhone was a twinkle in a trend-whore's eye
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I never understood this kind of stuff. Pinch to zoom, so apple came up with that for mobile phones...so what. So no one else can use it now? It's like saying hey guys, we have this great new advance in technology, but you can't use it at all in any of your technology. Microsoft has been copying apple with their OS features forever. This is basically a move by apple because they do not like the sudden threat the Android phones have imposed on them.
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Anyone else see how vague some of those patents are? How in the hell did they get those in the first place? Some of those patents are of things other companies have done before they did. I just don't get it. This is why outside of the US patents on technology have been fought over for a long time. Because they realize that if you give patents like this to certain companies it kills advances in technology, and puts the power in the hands of a select few money hungry companies to completely dominate the market.
One of the patents is for using a pattern to unlock a touch screen. So in other words, the idea of swiping your finger across a screen to unlock a phone is something only Apple can do?
You can't patent that idea, but you can patent the technology behind it. As long as HTC creates their own touch screen technology and code behind unlocking it by touching it they are fine.
im actually nervous for htc...
they have a range of devices they suing about and 700 + pages of documents!
this could put them in court for MINUTE!
hope they have the money to lawyer up...
One of the patents is for using a pattern to unlock a touch screen. So in other words, the idea of swiping your finger across a screen to unlock a phone is something only Apple can do?
You can't patent that idea, but you can patent the technology behind it. As long as HTC creates their own touch screen technology and code behind unlocking it by touching it they are fine.
That is actually pretty much what apple did.
"Unlocking A Device By Performing Gestures On An Unlock Image"
"List Scrolling And Document Translation, Scaling, And Rotation On A Touch-Screen Display,"
I blame the idiotic US patent office for ever allowing someone to do this. I blame apple for being a bunch of a$$holes.
The problem is, that it's EXACTLY about patenting ideas.
I hate to be behind Apple, but they missed this boat when they let Windows go 20+ years ago, without suing.
They've invented virtually the ENTIRETY of the ideas relating to how we interface with computers and our Android phones.
That being said, those are VERY broad ideas to patent. The problem isn't that they don't deserve a patent, some of them, for being so broad, but that the patent office DID issue them legal patents. That's the problem.
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The problem is, that it's EXACTLY about patenting ideas.
I hate to be behind Apple, but they missed this boat when they let Windows go 20+ years ago, without suing.
They've invented virtually the ENTIRETY of the ideas relating to how we interface with computers and our Android phones.
That being said, those are VERY broad ideas to patent. The problem isn't that they don't deserve a patent, some of them, for being so broad, but that the patent office DID issue them legal patents. That's the problem.
+1
That is the big problem. The idiot that signed off on this stuff needs to be found, tarred and feathered.
Instead of reading the lawsuit, you should actually read the patents. They are not vague. Actually, quite the opposite. They are VERY specific, not just in what kinds of input, but what kinds of gestures registering what kind of end product on what kind of device. They are not vague. In my opinion, I am GLAD that HTC is getting bombed. I hope Apple sues the crap out of HTC and depletes them. HTC says they've filed many patents over 13 years, but that doesn't mean any of those patents were approved and might all be pending.
As far as no one getting to use the technology, that's not true. You can use the technology, but you got to PAY the owner of that technology to use it. HTC thought they could get away with ripping off technology to make a profit without giving what's due to those who developed the technology.
All day, we see posts from people who are willing to "pay for apps to support the dev." What's the difference here? All of a sudden Apple's lawsuit threatens the operation of our beloved devices and that notion is all of a sudden evil? HTC will have to pay big. 20 tech IP infringed. I hope HTC goes down big time for this.
You want to see innovation being driven, then you better hope Apple wins. Because innovation isn't driven when someone copies technology bit for bit. It's when you're forced to come up with a different modality to accomplish the same task, easier and more efficiently.
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Although some of those things are kind of lame. Everyone does business with those manufacturing companies, and them doing business without proper ventilation or them strong-arming their employees is an epidemic in China.
It's VERY difficult to produce things in China, and many other countries, without finding these things out. They will tell you that they comply with all applicable laws, as well as your own standards, to get the manufacturing contract. By the time these things come out, your company DEPENDS on them to produce things (ipods, computers, whatever), and you can't afford to just drop them.
Sucky situation.
Last edited by pkopalek; March 2nd, 2010 at 12:25 PM.
Instead of reading the lawsuit, you should actually read the patents. They are not vague. Actually, quite the opposite. They are VERY specific, not just in what kinds of input, but what kinds of gestures registering what kind of end product on what kind of device. They are not vague. In my opinion, I am GLAD that HTC is getting bombed. I hope Apple sues the crap out of HTC and depletes them. HTC says they've filed many patents over 13 years, but that doesn't mean any of those patents were approved and might all be pending.
As far as no one getting to use the technology, that's not true. You can use the technology, but you got to PAY the owner of that technology to use it. HTC thought they could get away with ripping off technology to make a profit without giving what's due to those who developed the technology.
All day, we see posts from people who are willing to "pay for apps to support the dev." What's the difference here? All of a sudden Apple's lawsuit threatens the operation of our beloved devices and that notion is all of a sudden evil? HTC will have to pay big. 20 tech IP infringed. I hope HTC goes down big time for this.
You want to see innovation being driven, then you better hope Apple wins. Because innovation isn't driven when someone copies technology bit for bit. It's when you're forced to come up with a different modality to accomplish the same task, easier and more efficiently.
The the fact that a lot of apples IPhone is based off of Palm based devices? What does that mean?
From what I have read this is the case.
Last edited by startnew.jdr; March 2nd, 2010 at 12:28 PM.
Instead of reading the lawsuit, you should actually read the patents. They are not vague. Actually, quite the opposite. They are VERY specific, not just in what kinds of input, but what kinds of gestures registering what kind of end product on what kind of device. They are not vague. In my opinion, I am GLAD that HTC is getting bombed. I hope Apple sues the crap out of HTC and depletes them. HTC says they've filed many patents over 13 years, but that doesn't mean any of those patents were approved and might all be pending.
As far as no one getting to use the technology, that's not true. You can use the technology, but you got to PAY the owner of that technology to use it. HTC thought they could get away with ripping off technology to make a profit without giving what's due to those who developed the technology.
All day, we see posts from people who are willing to "pay for apps to support the dev." What's the difference here? All of a sudden Apple's lawsuit threatens the operation of our beloved devices and that notion is all of a sudden evil? HTC will have to pay big. 20 tech IP infringed. I hope HTC goes down big time for this.
You want to see innovation being driven, then you better hope Apple wins. Because innovation isn't driven when someone copies technology bit for bit. It's when you're forced to come up with a different modality to accomplish the same task, easier and more efficiently.
So, sooper_droid12, Apple uses "slave" labor to manufacture its goods, cutting costs whenever they can, in deplorable conditions and keeping their manufacturers just above the poverty line. They then bring the goods back to the US and charge and arm and a leg more than pretty much any other competitor on the market.
And I'm supposed to feel sorry for them feeling they have been morally/ethically slighted against?
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That is the big problem. The idiot that signed off on this stuff needs to be found, tarred and feathered.
-1
This is NOT the problem. Listen to an interview with Eric Schmidt, CEO of Google. Google thrives on the ability to obtain and retain their own intellectual property. All businesses are like this and without it, we wouldn't have companies like Microsoft, Apple and Google creating what they're creating. The fact that today, what we can do on our phone/devices was not even a figment of imagination 15 years ago speaks volumes about the need to protect IP. Google understands that. Apple understands that. What Schmidt continued to say was that we need to find a balance between protecting IP, use of IP and compensation.
IP can't be used in such a way that it's directed at 1 person for $1,000,000. The balance is understanding how to get $1 for the use by a 1,000,000 people. Same money amount, wider net casted. Eric Schmidt, in the same talk, praised Apple for understanding that and what they did with iTunes. The problem isn't that the patent exists. The problem is that there are companies out there, like HTC, that would rather steal tech than innovate tech, to make a buck. That's lazy. And I have no compassion for that.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think Google is absolved from all of this either. They made their bed with HTC. To me, there are really only three major players in the mobile device category: Nokia, Apple and Palm. Each of those three companies have long standing IPs on their side for the innovative development of mobile devices. As we can see from the Nokia suit against Apple, Nokia will likely win that suit due to precedence in their favor.
As I've said: I hope Apple bleeds HTC dry. This is the only way we drive innovation.
If those ideas were specific enough, sooper, this wouldn't be as much of a problem.
For instance, the gesture to open the lock screen? that's NOT EVEN CLOSE to the iPhone lock screen. It's laughably different.
It's the fact that there is _A_ gesture to open the lock screen that is being sued over. The stock Android lock screen is even more like the iPhone lock screen than that.
This is a lawsuit involving 20+ attempted details to build a case. I'd bet that nowhere NEAR all 20 of those will wind up being a "success" for Apple, and they'll get some money back for the ones that they do win.
It's the classic game. Sue for A, B, C, D, E, F, G. The accused says OK - Prove A, B, C, D, E, F, G. The accuser says, okay A for this reason (demonstrates), B for this reason (etc), and the details are hashed out.
The 20 patents that are being sued over will not likely all turn out in Apple's favor. It's how most lawsuits like this are leveled. For Apple, it's also the principle of the matter.
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The the fact that a lot of apples IPhone is based off of Palm based devices? What does that mean?
From what I have read this is the case.
I hope one day that Apple goes after Palm. Only for Palm to counter-sue and PWN Apple. Apple needs to get what they deserve to for stealing technology for the iPhone. I don't excuse that either.
At the end of the day, it's about compensation. There's no limitation of use if you compensate the developer of that technology. Apple needs to pay Palm and Nokia for the IP they've stolen. Just like HTC needs to compensate Apple for the tech that they've stolen.
Goes both ways.
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If those ideas were specific enough, sooper, this wouldn't be as much of a problem.
For instance, the gesture to open the lock screen? that's NOT EVEN CLOSE to the iPhone lock screen. It's laughably different.
It's the fact that there is _A_ gesture to open the lock screen that is being sued over. The stock Android lock screen is even more like the iPhone lock screen than that.
This is a lawsuit involving 20+ attempted details to build a case. I'd bet that nowhere NEAR all 20 of those will wind up being a "success" for Apple, and they'll get some money back for the ones that they do win.
It's the classic game. Sue for A, B, C, D, E, F, G. The accused says OK - Prove A, B, C, D, E, F, G. The accuser says, okay A for this reason (demonstrates), B for this reason (etc), and the details are hashed out.
The 20 patents that are being sued over will not likely all turn out in Apple's favor. It's how most lawsuits like this are leveled. For Apple, it's also the principle of the matter.
I agree with you. Of the 20 IPs, only some of them will really stick. It's up to the prosecution to prove that it's legitimately close enough. But when you look at IP infringement 943 about the heuristics, that 80+ page patent is seriously detailed about specific gestures for specific outcomes on specific devices. I'm not saying ALL of the patents are that specific, but they're more specific than what's detailed in the lawsuit. The specifics of those IPs will come out in the proceedings.
So, sooper_droid12, Apple uses "slave" labor to manufacture its goods, cutting costs whenever they can, in deplorable conditions and keeping their manufacturers just above the poverty line. They then bring the goods back to the US and charge and arm and a leg more than pretty much any other competitor on the market.
And I'm supposed to feel sorry for them feeling they have been morally/ethically slighted against?
Don't feel sorry for any company. Companies in this echelon of success are not scott-free clean themselves. Apple clearly infringes on Nokia and Palm patents. Apple can go down the crapper for all I care.
Here's what I want to see: I want to see that balance of IP use and compensation that Eric Schmidt lauded.
For example, iTunes is a perfect example of how people were able to get their product while making it accessible through tech and profitable for both Apple and the music industry. In effectively got more music into the hands of more people than the staid old business model of CDs, tapes, etc.
Compensate the developer is what I hear so often in these forums for great apps. Apple created a great technology with the utilization of multitouch for mobile devices. So compensate them!
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This is NOT the problem. Listen to an interview with Eric Schmidt, CEO of Google. Google thrives on the ability to obtain and retain their own intellectual property. All businesses are like this and without it, we wouldn't have companies like Microsoft, Apple and Google creating what they're creating. The fact that today, what we can do on our phone/devices was not even a figment of imagination 15 years ago speaks volumes about the need to protect IP. Google understands that. Apple understands that. What Schmidt continued to say was that we need to find a balance between protecting IP, use of IP and compensation.
IP can't be used in such a way that it's directed at 1 person for $1,000,000. The balance is understanding how to get $1 for the use by a 1,000,000 people. Same money amount, wider net casted. Eric Schmidt, in the same talk, praised Apple for understanding that and what they did with iTunes. The problem isn't that the patent exists. The problem is that there are companies out there, like HTC, that would rather steal tech than innovate tech, to make a buck. That's lazy. And I have no compassion for that.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think Google is absolved from all of this either. They made their bed with HTC. To me, there are really only three major players in the mobile device category: Nokia, Apple and Palm. Each of those three companies have long standing IPs on their side for the innovative development of mobile devices. As we can see from the Nokia suit against Apple, Nokia will likely win that suit due to precedence in their favor.
As I've said: I hope Apple bleeds HTC dry. This is the only way we drive innovation.
I don't have a problem with IP. If someone invented something then they deserve to be able to make money off of it. I do, however, disagree with the way Apple has written several of their patents and I think it is ridiculous that they were ever given patents for them.
I also hope that Palm will one day grow a set and sue the crap out of apple for everything they stole.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pkopalek
iPhone/iPod OS is OS X.
The original and most of the others have many parts of the interface stolen from the Creative Zen software.
Last edited by OfTheDamned; March 2nd, 2010 at 12:42 PM.
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No it's because HTC doesn't innovate. They just steal tech. HTC deserves what they get and I hope Apple bleeds them dry. For how many of the 20 or so infringements, Apple needs to be compensated for the legitimate ones. For the most part, this doesn't affect our DROIDs. It might affect the operation of Android. We may not see P2Z after all. And the CoolIris gallery app (from 2.1) might be pulled. Those are two things I know are in violation of Apple patents. If Google plays it safe and Motorola too, they'll make sure the next update will be in compliance. Nexus One is actually one of the exhibits in the lawsuit. Google phone will likely die as a result of this case.
I can only take this as an admission from Apple that they're scared shitless by Android.
Also, if Congress wanted to do something useful, they'd revamp the US patent system where it would be harder to patent stupid shit like sneezing a certain way to power on a device.
Last edited by Phases; March 22nd, 2010 at 01:17 PM.
Reason: get quad is a sensitive little girl
This is such BS. Apple feels threatened and has to cry like little babies over it. The funny thing is, technology patents today are blurred. everyone uses everyone elses ideas all the time. (How many netbooks, ebook readers, cell phones, etc. are there in the world?)
“Good artists copy. Great artists steal.” - Steve Jobs
So... it's "ok" to steal as long as you don't get caught or are pursued?
I can only take this as an admission from Apple that they're scared shitless by Android.
Also, if Congress wanted to do something useful, they'd revamp the US patent system where it would be harder to patent stupid shit like sneezing a certain way to power on a device.
Last edited by Phases; March 22nd, 2010 at 01:17 PM.
For the most part, this doesn't affect our DROIDs. It might affect the operation of Android. If Google plays it safe and Motorola too, they'll make sure the next update will be in compliance.
Why wouldn't it affect the DROID? If Apple wins this, Android will have to be redesigned from the ground up. Some of the patents they are claiming were violated are swiping to unlock the phone and warm sleep when you put the phone to your ear, just to name a couple. Wonder if Google will get involved to protect Android?
Funny how after net rumors of 2.1 hitting the HTC phones started, this lawsuit was filed. Wonder how long its been sitting and waiting for the "prime opportunity"
Apple is just pi$$ed that folks have a choice now (of phones AND carriers).
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I don't have a problem with IP. If someone invented something then they deserve to be able to make money off of it. I do, however, disagree with the way Apple has written several of their patents and I think it is ridiculous that they were ever given patents for them.
I also hope that Palm will one day grow a set and sue the crap out of apple for everything they stole.
Re-read the patents, some of them are very detailed, complete with illustrations. And after you read them, you'll even say to yourself, "Wow, some of this is so simple! You're telling me HTC, Google, can't come up with something that doesn't violate this!??!" Then you'll know what I mean about being lazy. HTC was lazy. In a way, Google was lazy too.
Re: Palm (and Google to a certain extent)
I don't think they'll sue Apple because right now, Palm, Apple and Google are mutually benefiting off each other's technology. Palm just isn't selling enough phones to really be on Apple's radar. So, it's almost symbiotic. Google is selling a bunch of phones, but who makes those phones? HTC (AH!!!). Apple benefits from some of Google's tech, and vice versa. Apple can put Google in its place a bit but cutting off their greatest supplier of Android phones.
I mean, with this lawsuit out, ever wonder why Apple didn't take a cut at Google?
I can only take this as an admission from Apple that they're scared shitless by Android.
Also, if Congress wanted to do something useful, they'd revamp the US patent system where it would be harder to patent stupid shit like sneezing a certain way to power on a device.
Last edited by Phases; March 22nd, 2010 at 01:18 PM.
Why wouldn't it affect the DROID? If Apple wins this, Android will have to be redesigned from the ground up. Some of the patents they are claiming were violated are swiping to unlock the phone and warm sleep when you put the phone to your ear, just to name a couple. Wonder if Google will get involved to protect Android?
Funny how after net rumors of 2.1 hitting the HTC phones started, this lawsuit was filed. Wonder how long its been sitting and waiting for the "prime opportunity"
Apple is just pi$$ed that folks have a choice now (of phones AND carriers).
It also may have to do with the fact that new HTC phones are popping up like weeds. Floods the market. Gives consumers more options.
Let's face facts. Apple likes to chain their consumers down to 1 phone. They like to control their products with an iron fist.
They are Technology Nazi's all the way and Steve Jobs is their "Hitler".
Apple suing HTC
instead of a retort.
