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Old August 8th, 2012, 09:35 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Samsung vs. Apple trial: your take

What do you think of this trial between the two smartphone and tablet titans?

Me, personally, I think Apple wants to destroy competition and monopolize the smartphone market. Its obvious that its lawsuit it rather petty, especially because it tried to have the Galaxy Nexus BANNED even tho you'd never mistake that phone for an iPhone in a million years. The Nexus doesn't even have physical buttons anywhere. Apple also seeks to play off consumers who, by their own ignorance, may not have been able to tell the difference between their own products and Samsung's. Plus, having Apple employees as "experts" who supposedly could not tell the difference between their own products and Samsung, shows they're clearly sealing their own grave and desperate. In ALL industries, competition takes inspiration from the competition. This lawsuit is like Ford suing GM for making a car, the first TV maker suing others for making TVs, etc.

Plus, the VAST majority, nearly all Androids (Galaxy S3 included) are nothing close to the iPhone in either user "look and feel," which is simply subjective anyway, and Apple should be ashamed of itself suing on such pathetic grounds. Apple tried this on Microsoft and lost. Apple seems to forget that they do not own the concept of a GUI on either computers or smartphones.

That being said, you know, Samsung could easily have made this much harder for Apple. I don't say they easily could have avoided this, because Jobs wanted to destroy Android, not just Samsung. But Samsung could really have just gone a little further in its first two Galaxy devices, the icons and the silver bezel, and made this much harder. I mean come on, Samsung. The basic problem is that TouchWiz could have differentiated itself more, like Moto and HTC.

But still doesn't destroy the fact that Apple is trying to destroy competition and I don't think they're gonna win or ban Samsung smartphones. I think we're likely to see tho, a radical OTA update on touchwiz at most.

Also, what is Apple thinking by suing one of their biggest suppliers? Heck if I were Samsung, I'd cut Apple off, hike the prices on them, or do that to try to get them to drop or settle.

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Old August 9th, 2012, 12:19 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Apple is trying to be a what Microsoft is to PC's
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Old August 9th, 2012, 12:33 PM   #3 (permalink)
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This is something I posted else where I think it sums up my point of view nicely

Quote:
Let me get this straight I wanna make sure I understand correctly. Samsung took the top model phone at the time. Sat down compared it to there flagship phone. Then using the information they gathered from comparing the phones they setup a chart. They then made improvements to the product using the data they found.

Maybe Apple should take a look at its own past before slinging mud
Steve Jobs and Xerox: The Truth About Innovation by ZURB [...] about-inno
I am just saying.
Tell yea the truth maybe Apple needs to take a note from another industry who does play nice with each other.

Look up Colt 1911a1 its a pistol designed by John Browning. That pistol has literally be copied by everyone. I don't see colt trying to sue everyone under the sun for using the design.

Take the tire Goodyear tire looks exactly like Firestone tire there both black with white or black lettering there both round and come in different sizes. I don't see Goodyear suing everyone over tire design

Maybe the computer industry needs to sit down and take some notes because at the current rate of SUE SUE SUE there going to end up destroying them self's over the long run.
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Old August 9th, 2012, 02:57 PM   #4 (permalink)
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What do you think of this trial between the two smartphone and tablet titans?
To be honest, I am not sure. If I really cared, I would wait until the trial is over and read the transcript. Unless the case is settled and lots of info is locked behind an NDA.

Lots of people spouting off about the greedy evil Apple. Most people do not have a clue about the case; the patents involved or how the patent system works. From what I read, it is clear that those that are most vocal about the case do not understand the case. It is a complex issue.

I'll wait until it is over or perhaps it already is over? Then I will decide, if I decide I give a rat's red rump. It does not affect me or you in any real way.

I'll say it again, if Apple owns a patent, they must protect it. If someone copies or uses the patent/design/whatever without Apple's blessing, they should have their business practices called into question. If it means not being able to sell their "illegal" products, this is how it must be.
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Old August 9th, 2012, 03:19 PM   #5 (permalink)
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This is something I posted else where I think it sums up my point of view nicely

Tell yea the truth maybe Apple needs to take a note from another industry who does play nice with each other.

Look up Colt 1911a1 its a pistol designed by John Browning. That pistol has literally be copied by everyone. I don't see colt trying to sue everyone under the sun for using the design.

Take the tire Goodyear tire looks exactly like Firestone tire there both black with white or black lettering there both round and come in different sizes. I don't see Goodyear suing everyone over tire design

Maybe the computer industry needs to sit down and take some notes because at the current rate of SUE SUE SUE there going to end up destroying them self's over the long run.
However, if the designs you mention are patented and protected and Colt/Firestone wanted to sue, they could have done so.

You mentioned Firestones colors and sizes and lettering. Chances are, these things cannot be protected. Clearly, the black color is a part of the nature of the rubber, so it can only be black. Size differences are required owing to the design of the vehhicle and (I'll assume you are joking) the shape must be round. Perhaps you jest a tad.

Perhaps they really cannot sue because they do not own the patents/trademarks/service marks/whatever in the first place?

Perhaps they entered into the public domain?

Perhaps there were lawsuits you are not aware of settled out of court?

Perhaps Mr. Browning's designs were sold or Browning was aware of infringers and he decided not to sue and therefore, lost the right to sue? This last thing can happen with copyrights. If you do not defend your rights, you can lose them altogether.

Perhaps the laws were different in the old days or perhaps Browning did not actually design the weapon in question and the last thing he wanted was to visit the courts. I see that his name is on the patents, so I'll give you that.

Research would take time and holding Firestone and Colt up as examples of what Apple should do is a problem for me. There could be good reasons for not suing that thee and me know nothing about.

I did look up the patent and I noticed all sorts of assignments back and forth. Colt might have patented the design, but it might have been based on other patents. And you do not know which manufacturers actually paid Mr. Colt.

Again, you cannot hold Colt (and Firestone) up as examples of what Apple and others should do. If you design it, you own it and have the unquestioned right to protect it.
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Old August 9th, 2012, 03:54 PM   #6 (permalink)
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To be honest, I am not sure. If I really cared, I would wait until the trial is over and read the transcript. Unless the case is settled and lots of info is locked behind an NDA.

Lots of people spouting off about the greedy evil Apple. Most people do not have a clue about the case; the patents involved or how the patent system works. From what I read, it is clear that those that are most vocal about the case do not understand the case. It is a complex issue.

I'll wait until it is over or perhaps it already is over? Then I will decide, if I decide I give a rat's red rump. It does not affect me or you in any real way.

I'll say it again, if Apple owns a patent, they must protect it. If someone copies or uses the patent/design/whatever without Apple's blessing, they should have their business practices called into question. If it means not being able to sell their "illegal" products, this is how it must be.
you honestly sound like a shill Apple fanboy.
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Old August 9th, 2012, 04:00 PM   #7 (permalink)
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However, if the designs you mention are patented and protected and Colt/Firestone wanted to sue, they could have done so.

You mentioned Firestones colors and sizes and lettering. Chances are, these things cannot be protected. Clearly, the black color is a part of the nature of the rubber, so it can only be black. Size differences are required owing to the design of the vehhicle and (I'll assume you are joking) the shape must be round. Perhaps you jest a tad.

Perhaps they really cannot sue because they do not own the patents/trademarks/service marks/whatever in the first place?

Perhaps they entered into the public domain?

Perhaps there were lawsuits you are not aware of settled out of court?

Perhaps Mr. Browning's designs were sold or Browning was aware of infringers and he decided not to sue and therefore, lost the right to sue? This last thing can happen with copyrights. If you do not defend your rights, you can lose them altogether.

Perhaps the laws were different in the old days or perhaps Browning did not actually design the weapon in question and the last thing he wanted was to visit the courts. I see that his name is on the patents, so I'll give you that.

Research would take time and holding Firestone and Colt up as examples of what Apple should do is a problem for me. There could be good reasons for not suing that thee and me know nothing about.

I did look up the patent and I noticed all sorts of assignments back and forth. Colt might have patented the design, but it might have been based on other patents. And you do not know which manufacturers actually paid Mr. Colt.

Again, you cannot hold Colt (and Firestone) up as examples of what Apple and others should do. If you design it, you own it and have the unquestioned right to protect it.

I do know a lot of history about the 1911 and I know for a fact the 1911 was a original design in fact it was the first true semi automatic pistol. The system Browning used has been recreated time after time thought. The fact is Brownings 1911 was the perfect design. That's why 99.9% of all semi automatic handguns are based off it. Anything from your modern day Glock to your Sig p226 are all based on the 1911's design.

The fact of the matter is some times you invite something and its almost perfect. All Semi autos compared to the 1911 look similer

1911


vs

Glock


As you can see from my example they are extremely similar in shape. They both share a main body and a slide with barrel.

Lets take a look at the Samsung Galaxy vs the Iphone



vs



They are similar and there is a chance they share some of the same parts (since Apple gets its parts from samsung).

I guess what I am trying to say is when you perfect something you really have no right to say no one else can use its basic shape and design.

How else would Apple like manufacturers to design there phone? Most phones are touch screen so manufacture removed all the buttons off the face of the device (similar to new Iphones) does Apple have the right to sue because they did it first?
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Old August 9th, 2012, 05:30 PM   #8 (permalink)
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you honestly sound like a shill Apple fanboy.
Well, at one time I did build modems and memory cards for the Newton, so perhaps some of my natural shillyness is still with me.

Odd that you call anyone who thinks Apple is a good company a 'shill fanboy.' Perhaps rather than post the same old tired stuff, you can address specific points?

Facts are facts regardless who delivers them to you.

Perhaps reading the AF rules will prevent yet one more thread closure and warnings from the High Mush Pokas that run AF?

Personally, I expected comments like yours yet I still love you. Kiss Kiss.
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Old August 9th, 2012, 05:42 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Omitted the gun stuff. I'll leave it to the experts.

They are similar and there is a chance they share some of the same parts (since Apple gets its parts from samsung).

I guess what I am trying to say is when you perfect something you really have no right to say no one else can use its basic shape and design.

How else would Apple like manufacturers to design there phone? Most phones are touch screen so manufacture removed all the buttons off the face of the device (similar to new Iphones) does Apple have the right to sue because they did it first?
Perhaps yes and perhaps no. There is still the matter of who patents first. Omitting the idea that to some people Apple's patents might not be valid, if you patent it, you own it. Until a court says differently, that is.

As for who should be allowed to manufacture a particular style of phone, who says it is a right? If a company decides to copy a particular design, there can be consequences.

Samsung, Nokia, Motorolla and the rest make phones because people want them. They have no explicit right to do so; they certainly should find a different design rather than violate someone's legal patents.

As soon as a company decides to manufacture this or that, they darn well better find out who owns the rights, the patent, trademark or whatever, before they run that first PVT.

Perhaps triangular or octagonal phones.
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Old August 9th, 2012, 05:44 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Apple is trying to be a what Microsoft is to PC's
Huh? Apple owns the market, 100%. They ARE what MS wants to be; the sole source of Applish delights.
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Old August 9th, 2012, 06:31 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Huh? Apple owns the market, 100%. They ARE what MS wants to be; the sole source of Applish delights.
I think not my guess is Android owns the cell phone market. I dont have numbers to back that up thought if you have numbers to back up your claim I love to see them.

Looking at the cell market as a hole

We know the following to be true
Android offers more phone choices then Apple
We know Android offers some products at a lower cost then Apple
We know that Android is offered on more carriers then Apple.

To say apple is dominating the market is kinda a stretch. That would mean they not only out sell the low cost alternatives but even with few carriers they sell more of there product.

As far as Microsoft goes they own the PC market they set the benchmark. They will continue to set that benchmark for many years to come. I will admit thought Apple is starting to take a larger chunk of the market.

The bottom line is simple until Apple starts putting out lower cost products they can not dominate the market. The majority of people out there can not or will not pay the premium for a apple product.
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Old August 9th, 2012, 07:00 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I think not my guess is Android owns the cell phone market. I dont have numbers to back that up thought if you have numbers to back up your claim I love to see them.

Looking at the cell market as a hole

We know the following to be true
Android offers more phone choices then Apple
We know Android offers some products at a lower cost then Apple
We know that Android is offered on more carriers then Apple.

To say apple is dominating the market is kinda a stretch. That would mean they not only out sell the low cost alternatives but even with few carriers they sell more of there product.

As far as Microsoft goes they own the PC market they set the benchmark. They will continue to set that benchmark for many years to come. I will admit thought Apple is starting to take a larger chunk of the market.

The bottom line is simple until Apple starts putting out lower cost products they can not dominate the market. The majority of people out there can not or will not pay the premium for a apple product.
nor pay a lot of money for the same apps you can get free on Android.

We need the Apple fanboy trolls off this forum.
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Perhaps triangular or octagonal phones.
Do you think you'd find pro-Android comments on an Apple forum? Methinks NO, why do we allow the inverse here.
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Old August 9th, 2012, 07:23 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I think any way this trial goes, it will be bad for consumers. I believe that Apple does not want any Android products available. Although there may be some similarities between an iPhone and an Android phone, there are just so many things I cannot do on an iPhone that I can on my Android phone. There are just so many differences that a ban would be such overkill.
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Old August 9th, 2012, 07:29 PM   #14 (permalink)
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nor pay a lot of money for the same apps you can get free on Android.

We need the Apple fanboy trolls off this forum.

Do you think you'd find pro-Android comments on an Apple forum? Methinks NO, why do we allow the inverse here.
================================
From the "Top of this thread" department:

"The Lounge We're all friends here. Hang out, kick your feet up and talk about whatever the heck you want!"

As soon as a "NO APPLE TALK" edict comes from on high, I would suggest that us "Trolls" have a rightful place here. Just as long as we are polite, stop cussing and treat others with respect, as per the RULES!

I try and few here would ever say I am insulting or pissy. I state my case and if you disagree, prove it.

So open your mind and stop with the "Android is best, period" POV; most of us likely would disagree. Most gathered here like Android and many here like Apple, too.

So rather than argue and say things you perhaps should consider with greater care, you should perhaps avoid the tired old often repeated and never substantiated crud you see elsewhere. rove to us Android is clearly superior and iOS is crap. Remember, just because you like one OS does not make it better.

Research my past comments. I am pro-Android. But I am not a stupid man. I use what works for me. In some cases, I use what I think is cool. I see lots of coolness with the iPhone. But I will still keep my old phones, too.

I am not about to agree with a bunch of comments against Apple, even though this is an Android Forum. I am pro Apple AND pro Android. This is not being an Apple Fanboy.

Not every app you get for free on Android is as good as those you pay for from Apple. Or do you think free is always better? I disagree. I use both operating systems and they both give you the good and the bad.

Many of the music applications for iOS are uber cool and brilliantly designed. Pages--part of the iWork Suite--is brilliant. I can run my business from my iPad if I need to. Then again, ditto an Android tablet.

It is impossible to brick an iDevice but one can fubar an Android device. There exists hundreds of Android phones and just a few iPhone models, so your choices are limited, unless limited is not an issue. You must JB an iOS device to customize, but this is not the case with Android. Some say this is good and some say it is bad. I jailbroke my iDevice from a local tavern and Denny's. So what if customizing requires a JB; it took me less than five moments and I have access to Cydia.

Some people need to root their Android phones to get rid of crap and to do other things. So what if an iPad requires a JB . . . all Android devices require rooting to do some things because Android is "closed" to some extent.

Both the Android Market and Apple provide crappy free applications as well as wonderful paid apps and there is no shortage of free apps for iOS.

Not sure what your point is.

Both platforms are good and both are in some ways, not so good. But that depends on what you want to do. Most users neither root or JB their devices and both users are generally happy.

When the iPhone 5 arrives, it might force thousands to reconsider the iPhone, thereby moving Apple to the top.

Or . . .

It is a dog that drives iPhone users to Android.
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Old August 9th, 2012, 07:32 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I think any way this trial goes, it will be bad for consumers. I believe that Apple does not want any Android products available. Although there may be some similarities between an iPhone and an Android phone, there are just so many things I cannot do on an iPhone that I can on my Android phone. There are just so many differences that a ban would be such overkill.
Not so sure I agree. I'll wait until the trial is over then determine its impact.

Apple might not want Android hanging around, but Jobs said something to the effect that he wants to crush Android/Google. Not sure his comments require parsing; no between the lines hints to worry about. No love lost between Google or Apple.

Remember, those things you say you cannot do with an iPhone likely do not matter to the majority of users.
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Old August 9th, 2012, 07:45 PM   #16 (permalink)
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To say apple is dominating the market is kinda a stretch. That would mean they not only out sell the low cost alternatives but even with few carriers they sell more of there product.

As far as Microsoft goes they own the PC market they set the benchmark. They will continue to set that benchmark for many years to come. I will admit thought Apple is starting to take a larger chunk of the market.

The bottom line is simple until Apple starts putting out lower cost products they can not dominate the market. The majority of people out there can not or will not pay the premium for a apple product.
Perhaps I'll clarify. What I meant was this: Google gives Android to any company wanting to make Android devices. It is essentially free.

Apple owns iOS and for most users, they own 100% of the iOS applications market. Until you JB, if you want applications, they must absolutely come from Apple.

They own iOS and they own ALL iOS powered phones, with no possible way for any other manufacturer to make iOS phones. In other words, they own 100% of the market as far as iPhones/iPads are concerned, not 100% of the cell phone market.

I am unsure of the exact numbers, and as I recall, EarlyMon made a little more sense of them, but here is my view:

Apple has just a few current models, but they have a large percentage of the market. Some say Android leads the way but yesterday, I read something about Apple owning an increasing part of the market.

Neither here nor there.

Since Apple has just a few models and the Android marketplace is overloaded with cell phone models, I find it amazing that one company--in this case, Apple--sells so many phones.

Any manufacturer with let us say, only 20% of the market means quite a bit when viewed against the dozens of manufacturers and hundreds of phones. Apple might sell fewer devices as a percentage of the overall market, but they are just one company and they sell millions of devices.
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Old August 9th, 2012, 07:52 PM   #17 (permalink)
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We know the following to be true
Android offers more phone choices then Apple
We know Android offers some products at a lower cost then Apple
We know that Android is offered on more carriers then Apple.
But these things do not make Apple a bad company. It also does not mean an inferior (compared to Android) product. The solution is easy: buy an Android phone and ignore Apple.
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Old August 9th, 2012, 10:06 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Remember, those things you say you cannot do with an iPhone likely do not matter to the majority of users.
I think many of them do matter. I keep seeing some of those features slowly creeping into iOS every year.
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Old August 10th, 2012, 08:34 AM   #19 (permalink)
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I do know a lot of history about the 1911 and I know for a fact the 1911 was a original design in fact it was the first true semi automatic pistol. The system Browning used has been recreated time after time thought. The fact is Brownings 1911 was the perfect design. That's why 99.9% of all semi automatic handguns are based off it. Anything from your modern day Glock to your Sig p226 are all based on the 1911's design.

The fact of the matter is some times you invite something and its almost perfect. All Semi autos compared to the 1911 look similer

1911


vs

Glock


As you can see from my example they are extremely similar in shape. They both share a main body and a slide with barrel.

Lets take a look at the Samsung Galaxy vs the Iphone



vs



They are similar and there is a chance they share some of the same parts (since Apple gets its parts from samsung).

I guess what I am trying to say is when you perfect something you really have no right to say no one else can use its basic shape and design.

How else would Apple like manufacturers to design there phone? Most phones are touch screen so manufacture removed all the buttons off the face of the device (similar to new Iphones) does Apple have the right to sue because they did it first?
I still prefer the 1911
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Old August 10th, 2012, 08:53 AM   #20 (permalink)
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We need the Apple fanboy trolls off this forum.

Do you think you'd find pro-Android comments on an Apple forum? Methinks NO, why do we allow the inverse here.
Because we do.

Because we expect civil conversations and an exercise of the polite choice to agree to disagree when necessary.

And as I notice that you are not a moderator here, let's have no more of you trying to dictate who can post what and where.

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Old August 10th, 2012, 06:55 PM   #21 (permalink)
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One of the reasons I frequent this forum more than any other, is that people here keep their differences of opinion civil for the most part. And when things get dicey, the awesome moderators cool things down with humor.

Now, on the topic at hand, I hate all this patent litigation. The system is broken. Patents are being issued for things that have no business being patented. Some of these things are just ridiculous! I could see copyright law being applied but a patent on a rectangle? Sheesh! Phones have been rectangular since the advent of the cordless. Form follows function. A rectangle fits better in the human hand than a square or a circle. After touch screen technology became cheap enough to be practical, it made sense to keep the shape we'd been comfortable with. Not to me that manufacturing costs would be through the roof if using a circle. Printing and reading said print, is better and more efficiently done done on a rectangular page. That's why books are rectangles. These are all instances of form following function, and intuitive thinking, and as such, should not be patentable.


I'm starting a very small sewing business with a friend. There are only so many ways to do certain things. We can't run out and patent to process of top stitching a seam, then start suing anyone who infringes on said top stitching patent. To differentiate ourselves from the crowd, we have to make a quality product, using quality materials, and combine them in a way that is fun and fresh. That's innovation.
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Old August 10th, 2012, 07:56 PM   #22 (permalink)
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One of the reasons I frequent this forum more than any other, is that people here keep their differences of opinion civil for the most part. And when things get dicey, the awesome moderators cool things down with humor.

Now, on the topic at hand, I hate all this patent litigation. The system is broken. Patents are being issued for things that have no business being patented. Some of these things are just ridiculous! I could see copyright law being applied but a patent on a rectangle? Sheesh! Phones have been rectangular since the advent of the cordless. Form follows function. A rectangle fits better in the human hand than a square or a circle. After touch screen technology became cheap enough to be practical, it made sense to keep the shape we'd been comfortable with. Not to me that manufacturing costs would be through the roof if using a circle. Printing and reading said print, is better and more efficiently done done on a rectangular page. That's why books are rectangles. These are all instances of form following function, and intuitive thinking, and as such, should not be patentable.

I'm starting a very small sewing business with a friend. There are only so many ways to do certain things. We can't run out and patent to process of top stitching a seam, then start suing anyone who infringes on said top stitching patent. To differentiate ourselves from the crowd, we have to make a quality product, using quality materials, and combine them in a way that is fun and fresh. That's innovation.
You would never be able to sue over a top seam. Apparently, top seams are a common and old technique. You can perhaps patent a special sewing machine that creates fancy top seams or patent a design incorporating such artifacts. So yes, if you can patent it, you can protect it.

Just like you cannot patent rectangular books; they have been in use since the darker ages.

I think the system needs a reboot. At least, some serious evaluation. Not sure how I would change the system, however.

What makes it difficult for the novice is some patents are based upon other patents that are based on still more patents. So to say that Apple is wrong or Samsung is right or to hear you say the system needs repair often dismisses a few things.

This is why it can be costly to get a patent on your new Widget design. You could start selling your products and be in violation of the rights of people you never knew existed.

I agree about form following function, but who says any manufacturer has the right to release a rectangular cell phone all the while, knowing they violated an existing right? We think manufacturers have a right to make this and that because the idea seems commonplace and logical.

Fact is, if someone owns the rights/patent/copyrights, they should be paid and not infringed upon.

If Apple owns the patent, you might not like it, but they own the right and others must either obtain clearances, rights or permissions to also release a device that to all the world, simply seems like a reasonable design that nobody should own.

OT: consider Angle Policies. Ever hear of them? They are common in the world of scrapbooks and rubber stamps. Some such policies claim the right to sell rubber stamps that create dots, circles, lines and squares.

Some people are pleased that they do not violate some maker's rights, not knowing that the maker has no rights. these policies will not stand up in Federal Court because you cannot protect common designs like squares and lines.

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Old August 10th, 2012, 08:18 PM   #23 (permalink)
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You would never be able to sue over a top seam. Apparently, top seams are a common and old technique. You can perhaps patent a special sewing machine that creates fancy top seams or patent a design incorporating such artifacts. So yes, if you can patent it, you can protect it.

Just like you cannot patent rectangular books; they have been in use since the darker ages.

I think the system needs a reboot. At least, some serious evaluation. Not sure how I would change the system, however.

What makes it difficult for the novice is some patents are based upon other patents that are based on still more patents. So to say that Apple is wrong or Samsung is right or to hear you say the system needs repair often dismisses a few things.

This is why it can be costly to get a patent on your new Widget design. You could start selling your products and be in violation of the rights of people you never knew existed.

I agree about form following function, but who says any manufacturer has the right to release a rectangular cell phone all the while, knowing they violated an existing right? We think manufacturers have a right to make this and that because the idea seems commonplace and logical.

Fact is, if someone owns the rights/patent/copyrights, they should be paid and not infringed upon.

If Apple owns the patent, you might not like it, but they own the right and others must either obtain clearances, rights or permissions to also release a device that to all the world, simply seems like a reasonable design that nobody should own.

OT: consider Angle Policies. Ever hear of them? They are common in the world of scrapbooks and rubber stamps. Some such policies claim the right to sell rubber stamps that create dots, circles, lines and squares.

Some people are pleased that they do not violate some maker's rights, not knowing that the maker has no rights. these policies will not stand up in Federal Court because you cannot protect common designs like squares and lines.

God Bless Us And Help Us One And All!
I think we are in agreement. A company absolutely has the right to protect it's patents. It's just that some patents should never be granted. Like a rectangle. The process of making said rectangle sure, not the shape itself.

Like my topseam example. You should and could be able to get a patent for a machine/device that makes topseaming easier and more efficient, but not the seam itself.

I love looking through Victorian era patents on corsets or "bust improvers". You see all kinds of different ways to accomplish the same thing. Some are truly innovative and some are just hysterical. The point is, they were,on the wholr, not patenting the corsets themselves, just the process by which they were made.

Back to phones/tablets . If you want to patent a rectangular phone, the answer should be no. You want to patent the manufacturing process behind the shape, then it should be yes. Design elements (look and feel) in and of themselves, should fall under the trademark laws.

Just my opinions in my should'a, could'a world

*edit: just saw I put a "not" X in the wrong place. Changed my whole meaning. Fixed that now.
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Old August 10th, 2012, 08:30 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I think we are in agreement. A company absolutely has the right to protect it's patents. It's just that some patents should never be granted. Like a rectangle. The process of making said rectangle sure, not the shape itself.

Like my topseam example. You should and could not be able to get a patent for a machine/device that makes topseaming easier and more efficient, but not the seam itself.

I love looking through Victorian era patents on corsets or "bust improvers". You see all kinds of different ways to accomplish the same thing. Some are truly innovative and some are just hysterical. The point is, they were,on the wholr, not patenting the corsets themselves, just the process by which they were made.

Back to phones/tablets . If you want to patent a rectangular phone, the answer should be no. You want to patent the manufacturing process behind the shape, then it should be yes. Design elements (look and feel) in and of themselves, should fall under the trademark laws.

Just my opinions in my should'a, could'a world
I think you said it best. Should Hyandai be sued for copying Mercedes' style, something which confuses me a lot more than Apple/Samsung? Or Honda and VW for having cars which look like BMWs?
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This is definitely a case of Apple feeling threatened by Android. Apple's strategy has always been to keep everything as tight notched as possible. Android however is exactly the opposite. They are as open as it gets. You find their os on all types of phones and this is Android 's key to success.(sound familiar ? *Hint* Windows) Now that Android is taking a dominate claim to the share Apple's only two options are to either limit competition (ridiculous lawsuits) or to expand to new platforms ( deja vu *ipod/iphone/ipad*). Only problem is their mastermind is gone.
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Old August 10th, 2012, 08:59 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I think you said it best. Should Hyandai be sued for copying Mercedes' style, something which confuses me a lot more than Apple/Samsung? Or Honda and VW for having cars which look like BMWs?
Not sure, but Honda and the rest should be enjoined from selling V-Twin bikes here in the land Harley-Davidson built. The reason has to do with their comments long ago that criticized HD for their backwards designs and lack of vision.

Then the rats came out with bikes that tried to look like the venerable HD. Ticked me off. Forget the patents or trademarks, I just dispize those people trying to capitalize of the only two-wheeled brand worth a tinker's darn.

That said, HD created the Showerhead using help from Porche Design and by God they stopped offering the WLA and other 45-CI flathead bikes so I lost faith in HD.
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Old August 10th, 2012, 09:07 PM   #27 (permalink)
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This is definitely a case of Apple feeling threatened by Android. Apple's strategy has always been to keep everything as tight notched as possible. Android however is exactly the opposite. They are as open as it gets. You find their os on all types of phones and this is Android 's key to success.(sound familiar ? *Hint* Windows) Now that Android is taking a dominate claim to the share Apple's only two options are to either limit competition (ridiculous lawsuits) or to expand to new platforms ( deja vu *ipod/iphone/ipad*). Only problem is their mastermind is gone.
I am suspicious and I'll say it: IF Google knew the free OS they have allowed manufacturers to beta test for so very long was going to be a hit, my guess is it would not be free.

Not sure who leads the race these days, but remember, the iPhone 5 could be a show stopping game changer and perhaps we will see cheaper iPhones as Apple moves forward and Jobs is forgotten and Apple becomes a shining star and people will say, "What is this Android you all are speaking of?"

For those of you that do not know, a guy named Steve Jobs was at the top of Apple, but now he is gone.

I found a site this afternoon that broke down some financials and from what I read, Apple is not as far back as many claim. Something to do with Apple's profits Vs. Same Song's. I'll try to find the link.

Did you know Samsung translated to English is actually "Same Song?" They choose that name because they knew they were playing the Same Song (design wise) as Apple, but they needed the foreign sounding name for the Samsung corporate theme song.
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Old August 10th, 2012, 09:12 PM   #28 (permalink)
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This is definitely a case of Apple feeling threatened by Android. Apple's strategy has always been to keep everything as tight notched as possible. Android however is exactly the opposite. They are as open as it gets.
Well, sure. That is because they need a world of users and developers to fix the inherent issues with the Android operating system. I tried to talk them out or releasing those incremental increases like Gingerbread, Froyo and Carmel Cake and they did not return my calls.

I long for the day when Android is stable, no more FCs and it actually works.

I can make telephone calls on an iPhone. Can any of you say the same? Thought not. Android should be limited to interactive black and white TVs and game consoles.

Geesh, Lordy Golly Sakes.

Go iPhone!
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Old August 10th, 2012, 09:14 PM   #29 (permalink)
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I think you said it best. Should Hyandai be sued for copying Mercedes' style, something which confuses me a lot more than Apple/Samsung? Or Honda and VW for having cars which look like BMWs?
If Hyandai can manage something like this for less, I say go Hyandai. You wanna talk about Mercedes style, I posted one good style example.
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Old August 10th, 2012, 09:52 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Lol you make A valid point "For those of you that do not know, a guy named Steve Jobs was at the top of Apple, but now he is gone. "

But, if Android had made their system paid and knew what a success it turned out to be unpaid they would of never made it paid. However these are hypothetical arguments and hold no bearing. The Apple brand will not get cheaper, they are smart enough to know it is their prestige that attracts users. The only place iPhones will become cheaper is eBay. And let's be honest, iPhone 5 a game changer, not likely. Nice phone, sure.
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Old August 10th, 2012, 09:54 PM   #31 (permalink)
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as for Android fading away, also not likely. You are thinking of BlackBerry my friend
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Old August 10th, 2012, 09:59 PM   #32 (permalink)
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The only place iPhones will become cheaper is eBay. And let's be honest, iPhone 5 a game changer, not likely. Nice phone, sure.
I looked at eBay and they are still selling for big dough. For example, many sellers want us to pay 525-650.00. And some charge 25.00 less if you want a refurbished device. Not saying they will get the high prices, just saying.

Not sure about the iPhone 5. It is not out yet. I'll wait and see what the future brings. One thing about Apple, their fortunes wil grow. Especially when they turn the market on its ear with things we never expected.
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Old August 10th, 2012, 10:02 PM   #33 (permalink)
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as for Android fading away, also not likely. You are thinking of BlackBerry my friend
Not saying Android will fade away. Not saying something else will not arrive at some point that makes android the Blackberry of the smartphone world.

One thing I know for sure is there are always two guys, somewhere, in a garage creating a world beater. It is the way of high technology. I have been part of such changes and they are exciting. Like the X-Jack and Palm devices.

Then they fade away only to be replaced by the next big thing.
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Old August 10th, 2012, 10:07 PM   #34 (permalink)
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I looked at eBay and they are still selling for big dough. For example, many sellers want us to pay 525-650.00. And some charge 25.00 less if you want a refurbished device. Not saying they will get the high prices, just saying.

Not sure about the iPhone 5. It is not out yet. I'll wait and see what the future brings. One thing about Apple, their fortunes wil grow. Especially when they turn the market on its ear with things we never expected.
Yes I was referring to older generations getting cheaper as newer models are released. Your right as I said before iPhone/iPad/iPod made them successful in this day and age. But do they have another game changer?
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Old August 10th, 2012, 10:10 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Not saying Android will fade away. Not saying something else will not arrive at some point that makes android the Blackberry of the smartphone world.

One thing I know for sure is there are always two guys, somewhere, in a garage creating a world beater. It is the way of high technology. I have been part of such changes and they are exciting. Like the X-Jack and Palm devices.

Then they fade away only to be replaced by the next big thing.
Yeah I agree and this is why I love Apple. Competition is great for us (customers)
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Old August 10th, 2012, 10:11 PM   #36 (permalink)
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for example, remember when Apple offered you guys the cloud to sync 25,000 songs for like 12 bucks a year? Google gave us 20,000 songs for free a couple months later.

Update: these are actual prices for icloud
5GB of online storage is free; 10GB is $20 a year; 20GB is $40 a year; 50GB is $100 a year.

I believe google drive offers 100gb for around $60. In the article I read there is new plan pricing and old plan pricing that has been grandfathered in. However, the new pricing is still significantly cheaper.
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Old August 10th, 2012, 10:13 PM   #37 (permalink)
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And as for the two guys in the garage..nothing is more exciting then awaiting the day when smartphones are laughable as high end gadgets
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Old August 10th, 2012, 10:33 PM   #38 (permalink)
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For whoever posted the first picture, this is more current and more accurately depicts apple's ridiculous claims. Not to mention claims such as "Searching multiple sources of information at once"..A feature I remember using way back before yahoo (webcrawler anyone?)
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Old August 11th, 2012, 12:07 AM   #39 (permalink)
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This is definitely a case of Apple feeling threatened by Android. Apple's strategy has always been to keep everything as tight notched as possible. Android however is exactly the opposite. They are as open as it gets. You find their os on all types of phones and this is Android 's key to success.(sound familiar ? *Hint* Windows) Now that Android is taking a dominate claim to the share Apple's only two options are to either limit competition (ridiculous lawsuits) or to expand to new platforms ( deja vu *ipod/iphone/ipad*). Only problem is their mastermind is gone.
This is how I see the cases. (There are actually two patent cases before Judge Lucy Koh. The second one which earned the temporary ban against the Galaxy Nexus comes up for hearing on Aug 20.)

Apple is trying to protect their role as "the" smartphone company on the market. The majority of their business is based on the sale of iPhones. Their PC/laptop market is tiny by comparison. iPad's, like all tablets, sell just a bit better. (Most average people are still trying to figure out what if any role a tablet plays in their lives. They are expensive toys.)

Samsung is Apple's biggest single competitor. They have the best selling Android phones on the market today. And Samsung has put a bull's eye on Apple over the last couple years to declare they see them as the hardware/company to beat. But unlike LG, HTC and Motorola, Samsung has deep enough pockets (and an ego to match) to fund a good fight back.

Neither party is interested in settling. There will be no licensing agreements and I highly doubt there will be any more bans.

IMHO Apple needs to abandon the lawsuit angle and funnel those resources into building "the next big thing". Samsung has certainly not been sitting idle while the case concludes.
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Old August 11th, 2012, 12:19 AM   #40 (permalink)
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This is how I see the cases. (There are actually two patent cases before Judge Lucy Koh. The second one which earned the temporary ban against the Galaxy Nexus comes up for hearing on Aug 20.)

Apple is trying to protect their role as "the" smartphone company on the market. The majority of their business is based on the sale of iPhones. Their PC/laptop market is tiny by comparison. iPad's, like all tablets, sell just a bit better. (Most average people are still trying to figure out what if any role a tablet plays in their lives. They are expensive toys.)

Samsung is Apple's biggest single competitor. They have the best selling Android phones on the market today. And Samsung has put a bull's eye on Apple over the last couple years to declare they see them as the hardware/company to beat. But unlike LG, HTC and Motorola, Samsung has deep enough pockets (and an ego to match) to fund a good fight back.

Neither party is interested in settling. There will be no licensing agreements and I highly doubt there will be any more bans.

IMHO Apple needs to abandon the lawsuit angle and funnel those resources into building "the next big thing". Samsung has certainly not been sitting idle while the case concludes.
Interesting perspective on Samsung having the resources to fight back. Never even thought about that. It's true because they are into much more then just phones (e.g. t.v's, cameras, REFRIDGERATORS!). Can you imagine an Apple refridgerator? (oh S***, we just stumbled onto their next big thing!) Lawsuit!
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Old August 11th, 2012, 12:32 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Honestly, I found all those people who are saying Samsung and Apple products look alike and are confused should be branded as idiots, including Apple's ridiculous claims that people bought a device thinking it was an ipad but returned it because it was not. How can you think something is an ipad after reading huge Samsung logos everywhere? its on the front and back of a device and practically every side of the box? And the image on the box proclaims proudly "Galaxy Tab".

Its like Apple is getting idiots to testify for them. Heck a supposed graphics designer said that he was confused between a Galaxy S and an iPhone. Uh, right. You just ignored that one is bigger, has a superior display (Galaxy S went up against iPhone 3GS since it launched before the iPhone 4) and has Samsung on both front and back.

The icon patents are also ludicrous. Apple is picking out of context anyway. Look at the argument for the "gallery". The use of the sunflower. Samsung has been using the sunflower image since the time of Windows Mobiles before there was an iPhone. Heck I didn't even notice the gallery image was a sunflower until Apple pointed it out. And Apple icons have a cartoony quality to them not found in Samsung.

And why sue only now? After Samsung captured the number one spot from Nokia? Its just that Apple has no more guns to sling, and is losing the battle software side. Android rules cellphones, and Apple's share of the market has gone stagnant and at times going down. Windows has been at over 100% growth rate in the cellphone market shares ever since releasing WP7.5 last year, moving from 1.5% to 5% of the market share in little over a year. And with the approach of Windows 8, this will even grow further since Windows IS the standard for PCs and having a Windows phone and PC further integrates your systems better than what the Apple ecosystem offers.

Apple is losing, and its trying to take down its biggest rival using underhanded cheap tricks by abusing a broken system applying patents left and right for things that should not be patented in the first place due to prior art. This wouldn't have been such a big issue if Apple just followed Microsoft's lead regarding patents. Sure sue the manufacturers, but instead of taking them out of business, ask for royalties. MS is getting like 3-5 USD per Android device sold.
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Old August 11th, 2012, 01:09 AM   #42 (permalink)
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I still prefer the 1911
I agree nothing beats the 1911 its why its my preferred home defense firearm. I gotta say thought when I take it and my revolvers to the range I get some pretty weird looks from the +50 crowd. I guess its my age thought you don't see many 20 somethings using anything but plastic.
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Old August 11th, 2012, 01:10 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Little known factoid - a tinker's dam was a piece of clay used by silversmiths to hold solder in place, brushed away when done. Hence, not worth a tinker's dam isn't cussing.

I find a lot of the shenanigans being trotted out by both sets of lawyers to have a similar worth to a tinker's dam in my book, and does nothing for my respect of their clients, to be honest.
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Old August 11th, 2012, 01:24 AM   #44 (permalink)
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This is how I see the cases. (There are actually two patent cases before Judge Lucy Koh. The second one which earned the temporary ban against the Galaxy Nexus comes up for hearing on Aug 20.)

Apple is trying to protect their role as "the" smartphone company on the market. The majority of their business is based on the sale of iPhones. Their PC/laptop market is tiny by comparison. iPad's, like all tablets, sell just a bit better. (Most average people are still trying to figure out what if any role a tablet plays in their lives. They are expensive toys.)

Samsung is Apple's biggest single competitor. They have the best selling Android phones on the market today. And Samsung has put a bull's eye on Apple over the last couple years to declare they see them as the hardware/company to beat. But unlike LG, HTC and Motorola, Samsung has deep enough pockets (and an ego to match) to fund a good fight back.

Neither party is interested in settling. There will be no licensing agreements and I highly doubt there will be any more bans.

IMHO Apple needs to abandon the lawsuit angle and funnel those resources into building "the next big thing". Samsung has certainly not been sitting idle while the case concludes.
I might be wrong but I always thought Samsung was also backed by the Korean Government money wise.

I think your 100% correct I think Apple has bitten off more then it can chew with this current lawsuit. Apple is not a small company by any means but have you noticed they never went after google directly.

I cant think of them ever going after a Microsoft product. Instead they have always been the bully on the block going after small company's.

Anyone remember this

Apple Sues School For Using The Same Fruit In a Logo

I think this time Apple has seriously picked a fight with a bigger kid.

I think the Tablets will find the niche market of people who want a portable computer but don't want a laptop. I also think company's see a lot of use out of them. My buddy uses his tablet at work all day he a IT administrator. Having remote easy access to all there systems in a portable package is a live saver. I know personally I love my tablet I have a laptop I got for on the go computing and it hardly ever gets used.
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Old August 11th, 2012, 01:33 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Asian stock markets don't work like ours.

Governments are involved anywhere a significant home country workforce could be affected by a company failure.

Their policies recall post-war starvation and they're quite protectionist.
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Old August 11th, 2012, 01:55 AM   #46 (permalink)
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I might be wrong but I always thought Samsung was also backed by the Korean Government money wise.

I think your 100% correct I think Apple has bitten off more then it can chew with this current lawsuit. Apple is not a small company by any means but have you noticed they never went after google directly.

I cant think of them ever going after a Microsoft product. Instead they have always been the bully on the block going after small company's.

Anyone remember this

Apple Sues School For Using The Same Fruit In a Logo

I think this time Apple has seriously picked a fight with a bigger kid.

I think the Tablets will find the niche market of people who want a portable computer but don't want a laptop. I also think company's see a lot of use out of them. My buddy uses his tablet at work all day he a IT administrator. Having remote easy access to all there systems in a portable package is a live saver. I know personally I love my tablet I have a laptop I got for on the go computing and it hardly ever gets used.
Yes and apps have definitely given tablets the edge! Have you seen the transformer prime 2 with the keyboard dock, beautiful.
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Old August 11th, 2012, 03:49 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Yes and apps have definitely given tablets the edge! Have you seen the transformer prime 2 with the keyboard dock, beautiful.
Wait, you combined a tablet and a keyboard dock. I think you're going backwards with your technology.
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Old August 11th, 2012, 08:25 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Sorry folks, but I like both Android and iOS

Under the presumption of CHOICE and having at least these two OS choices always:

Good points about iOS (we already know the bad):

Very stable
+Great battery life
+Tons of great apps (due to the relatively "series" task execution, apps are more stable and tend to work better).
+The Apps in general work a lot better for tablets and most games perform and look better than Android versions (MC3 and NOVA 3 from Gameloft are prime examples).
+It just works

Android:
+Better multitask function due to a more "parallel" task operation design.
+Game emulators and PC ports do not require a 'jail break".
+More open support of codecs
+Drag n drop
+No iTunes style UI needed
+External storage support (though Google's Android team wish it died)
+Flash support (probably not a plus down the road, but will be for the next two years)- That is a LOOOOONNNG time as far as devices evolution and life span.

If I had to pick one OS, I would choose Android, but really like having both. My GS3, TF300, and HTC View coexist fine with my iPod 4 and iPad 3.

Added:

On the DARK side though, if external storage, game emulators (represents openness of the OS) and Flash were not options for Android, I would see them both essentially the same. That would suck and would for OEMs too, since less differentiation means less reasons to side with Android and more to go with the more "proven" brand.
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Old August 11th, 2012, 08:40 AM   #49 (permalink)
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It's not just the money - Apple is losing its snob appeal if people can't tell the difference between products even with logos splashed all over.

Most of the stuff looks alike to me. I don't care what the icons are, given a chance I'd make up my own. All I care is that the screen is bright, the device doesn't crash, and I can make it work my way. I actually prefer Nokia phones, but Symbian dead-ended, and I don't want Windows. Google used Samsung for the Nexus S.
I might be one of the few that does research before buying.

There's one old saying:
"You have eyes, but do not see"

If all tablets become generically known to the populace as Ipads, which seems to be the trend now, Apple will be able to do nothing about it. It will be general usage and Apple can't sue the general population. Apple can only blame their own advertising success.

Kleenex can't get its name back, neither can Bandaid. MS wanted to copyright Windows but got turned down.
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Old August 11th, 2012, 12:22 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Yes I was referring to older generations getting cheaper as newer models are released. Your right as I said before iPhone/iPad/iPod made them successful in this day and age. But do they have another game changer?
I do not know. We must wait and see.
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