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Old November 11th, 2012, 12:35 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default End to HTC / Apple patent disputes

http://www.engadget.com/2012/11/10/apple-htc-patent-settlement-10-year-license/

About time!

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Old November 11th, 2012, 12:51 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I don't know the details, but I'm not sure it's a good thing if Apple just succeeded in extorting a boatload of money from HTC. Sets a bad precedent and makes it less profitable to make Android phones.
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Old November 11th, 2012, 01:00 AM   #3 (permalink)
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The details aren't disclosed but HTC was suing Apple over patents acquired from Google.

Hopefully, this is just a cross-licensing deal and Apple will finally begin to stop patent trolling.
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Old November 11th, 2012, 01:37 AM   #4 (permalink)
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The details aren't disclosed but HTC was suing Apple over patents acquired from Google.

Hopefully, this is just a cross-licensing deal and Apple will finally begin to stop patent trolling.

I think they both realize that they both have more to gain & can retain their respective brand identity in both the short & long term w/this deal.
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Old November 11th, 2012, 02:48 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Apple started this with their patent trolling.

They've gotten an edict on US HTC phones for a fight they started in 2010 over a patent that is prior art for Microsoft and against whom they've taken no action, and for very good reason.

It's a feature that you'll find alive and well on your Gmail app but now can't find in HTC Mail. And in two and a half years, they've not lifted a finger against Google on this either.

HTC retaliated with Google's help because they had no other choice.

Sorry compadre, but I hate the memes going around about this.

When Android was the underdog and Apple started patent trolling, this forum was filled with oh noes, HTC stole.

When the countersuits started the rhetoric changed to why can't we all get along.

There is no getting along with a bully. They brought this fight, they refused to settle prior to the countersuit defense. And as a Taiwanese company, HTC found no relief in our justice.

So I cannot buy that maybe they both learned the same lesson.

HTC learned what we all know. You smack a bully back hard enough and he'll want peace.
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Old November 11th, 2012, 03:23 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EarlyMon View Post
Apple started this with their patent trolling.

They've gotten an edict on US HTC phones for a fight they started in 2010 over a patent that is prior art for Microsoft and against whom they've taken no action, and for very good reason.

It's a feature that you'll find alive and well on your Gmail app but now can't find in HTC Mail. And in two and a half years, they've not lifted a finger against Google on this either.

HTC retaliated with Google's help because they had no other choice.

Sorry compadre, but I hate the memes going around about this.

When Android was the underdog and Apple started patent trolling, this forum was filled with oh noes, HTC stole.

When the countersuits started the rhetoric changed to why can't we all get along.

There is no getting along with a bully. They brought this fight, they refused to settle prior to the countersuit defense. And as a Taiwanese company, HTC found no relief in our justice.

So I cannot buy that maybe they both learned the same lesson.

HTC learned what we all know. You smack a bully back hard enough and he'll want peace.
Thanks for the additional information. The article didn't really go into the countersuit, so I was worried that HTC just caved and decided to pay Apple a fee per device or something.
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Old November 11th, 2012, 03:45 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Thanks for the additional information. The article didn't really go into the countersuit, so I was worried that HTC just caved and decided to pay Apple a fee per device or something.
If they did, that would have been fair enough. Some days you get the bear, some days the bear gets you.

Apple refused licensing offers before this.

I pay a part of my phone purchases to Microsoft for their licensing deal. That's the way it goes.

But until now, Apple fans have gone viral over what HTC stole, regardless of the facts, and it's hurt HTC's reputation.

I really hope that Apple's willingness to bargain marks the end of this nonsense in court.
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Old November 11th, 2012, 05:09 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Now Let's hope HTC can dig themselves out of the hole they are in. Glad to see this has come to a rest.
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Old November 11th, 2012, 05:58 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I hope HTC does, too. I haven't had the pleasure of one of their phones. but I appreciate the ability to buy one if I so desire.
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Old November 11th, 2012, 11:43 PM   #10 (permalink)
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not knowing the full detials... i just hope htc got some relief

and that htc can not get back to innovation.. they really had something going last year.. i like the ideas they had with the htc hub.. it added value for me.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 12:48 AM   #11 (permalink)
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If they did, that would have been fair enough. Some days you get the bear, some days the bear gets you.

Apple refused licensing offers before this.

I pay a part of my phone purchases to Microsoft for their licensing deal. That's the way it goes.

But until now, Apple fans have gone viral over what HTC stole, regardless of the facts, and it's hurt HTC's reputation.

I really hope that Apple's willingness to bargain marks the end of this nonsense in court.
Yeah, sometimes you have to take the best deal you can get, but I dread the day that Apple gets paid for every Android phone (and tablet) sold.

I also hate to see Apple being successful with the strategy of bleeding a company slowly through lawsuits until they settle, because nobody has deep enough pockets to out-wait Apple, except maybe Google.

But we don't know the details, maybe that's not even what's happening.

At least Apple is dealing, I guess that's progress. Even if its because they see a new revenue stream. Could be a whole change of strategy for them.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 06:06 AM   #12 (permalink)
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The way I see it, this signifies one of two things... Apple is no longer worried about HTC's competition, and is settling so they can focus on the one manufacturer who is truly threatening them, or there is finally a realization from Apple that this massive litigation streak in the mobile industry is not going anywhere, and is only taking money away from development... I soooo hope its option 2...
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Old November 12th, 2012, 06:49 AM   #13 (permalink)
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The way I see it, this signifies one of two things... Apple is no longer worried about HTC's competition, and is settling so they can focus on the one manufacturer who is truly threatening them, or there is finally a realization from Apple that this massive litigation streak in the mobile industry is not going anywhere, and is only taking money away from development... I soooo hope its option 2...
Option 3, they could have been facing the possibility that their products would have to be changed or made not for sale here, causing investor panic, like they kindly did for HTC.

This last year, HTC was trying to get one or more Mac models from coming into the US over an HTC patent, and nearly succeeded. This could have all been the result of that action.

Cook said he would carry out the policies of his predecessor. HTC is not nobody, despite Samsung's stellar sales. HTC made the first Android. Losing HTC to Apple with Google doing nothing would have sent a message to the other makers: this could happen to you. That's exactly why Google stepped in and helped.

Google bought Motorola for their patents and their intellectual property. Some of these Apple patents have gone unchallenged but are prior art for Motorola, and the Apple-Google-rola court cases have been heating up as well, with Apple insisting they'd pay $1/unit for FRAND patents and the courts seeing that as a nose-thumbing.

Apple has three ways to get back on top - innovate beyond the competition, the competition loses innovations, or the competition gets hamstrung. Being able to screw either HTC or Motorola significantly would be enough. Samsung investors were not happy last year until their CEO assured them that Samsung's Bada OS was alive and well and that they'd turn to that if dealing with Google became a problem.

Apple's been playing dominos and has been successful in getting people to believe the fairy tale that others actually stole from them.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 06:58 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Option 3, they could have been facing the possibility that their products would have to be changed or made not for sale here, causing investor panic, like they kindly did for HTC.
Very true, I guess I am just too cynical to think Apple would ever lose that significantly.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 07:21 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Very true, I guess I am just too cynical to think Apple would ever lose that significantly.
Whereas I'm too cynical to believe that Apple would realize that litigation is bad thing.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 08:07 AM   #16 (permalink)
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The EU seems to be after Apple. Any country could decide to ban, and China could make Apple's life miserable. Witness MS and the IE debacle.

Neowin - Where unprofessional journalism looks better - Neowin (Apple and legal fees)

How America does business doesn't fly all over the world. Others see things differently as they should. With global economy, companies need to stop behaving like 800 lb gorillas.

Apple has gotten too big for its britches. Literally. I can't believe they don't have some department checking on usage, sources of some of the graphics, etc. It seems like the vendetta of being right is blinding those that make decisions and they are ignoring any warnings. Or think they are Caesar's wife.

Apple paid 13.9m for its Swiss clock design- The Inquirer

I've started to see articles questioning Apple's financial value, and the wisdom of these lawsuits in other places than tech. The effect of the lawsuits and the idiocy of some of the patents is starting to show where more people can see it. Hopefully, it gets to the point where Apple will rethink and go back to innovation..

I don't want them out of business - just to be reasonable. There is no perfect product and one size doesn't fit all. Freedom of choice is more important to me than ANY brand of ANYTHING.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 01:10 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I don't think Apple is done litigating. They just threw Ice Cream Sandwich in their latest ongoing war with Samsung...directly bringing Google into the fight (and not Googlerola). If they can nail down ICS, JB is just a quick hop away. That would be a crushing blow to Android.

However, the USPTO is finally starting to evaluate some of the patents they gave to Apple and is rejecting some of them. I think this is pressure from judgments assigned by international courts (which are largely against Apple's favor) as showing these patents/arguments as ridiculous. I expect that, eventually, these trials and patents will be thrown out or overturned to save face. Apple touted that the German and US courts sided with them when forced to apologize by the UK courts. But if you count the tallies, a larger number rejected the exact same claim. Eventually it's going to make American courts look like they are protecting an "American" product (even though Samsung makes most of the iPhone's components until very recently where Apple is trying to vary their suppliers).
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Old November 12th, 2012, 02:55 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Apple touted that the German and US courts sided with them when forced to apologize by the UK courts.
For which they were very firmly slapped down.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 05:02 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Apple, Google, Starbucks and Amazon all seem to be in tax trouble in the UK.

UK lawmakers slam Starbucks, Amazon and Google on tax | Reuters

While not included in this article, there was a similar one a couple of weeks ago about Apple only paying something like 3% tax.

BBC News - Apple paid only 2% corporation tax outside US

Al Capone got brought down by tax evasion - so have many other mobster types. Just because you don't use a gun ------
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Old November 12th, 2012, 05:37 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Some details are coming out. Apparently, HTC is paying Apple $6-$8 per phone sold.

HTC likely paying Apple between $6 and $8 per phone sold | MobileSyrup.com
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Old November 12th, 2012, 05:41 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I am really excited to see this news. I know this is far from the end, but it is progress in my eyes.
I think (or hope) that crApple has changed the direction of their focus with their change in leadership. We all know Jobs wanted nothing more than to crush Android, and may have if he was around long enough to do so, but hopefully Cook realized that was not in "the best way to behave" when you're in control of so much money and power; something I truly was amazed that being a Buddhist, Jobs did not see.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 05:46 PM   #22 (permalink)
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From another thread -

Quote:
Originally Posted by EarlyMon View Post
Estimate of 180 to 280 by undisclosed sources who can't verify if that's the difference after Apple pays HTC or if that money will turn around on the books and go out to HTC.

Pardon my cynicism, but this comes from the blogosphere and the source being quoted hands out investment advice.

Let's imagine the following headline -

Analyst Can't Figure Out What To Tell Investors He Advised To Buy Apple On His Previous Report Stating That Apple Would Win Every Case

Yeah.

Even if HTC decided to pay, nothing to see here.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 05:49 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Yet Apple is trying to lower cost on Motorola patents per phone
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Old November 12th, 2012, 09:19 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Some details are coming out. Apparently, HTC is paying Apple $6-$8 per phone sold.

HTC likely paying Apple between $6 and $8 per phone sold | MobileSyrup.com
That is an outrageous amount of money if true. That's what I was scared of. No wonder Apple called off the dogs for that kind of money. Apple hasn't come to their senses about the lawsuits, that is a flat-out surrender by HTC, and sets a precedent for every Android manufacturer to end up with a similar deal. So that reveals Apples strategy; get paid no matter what phone you buy, and they don't have to worry about any pesky judge or jury going off script. I for one don't see this as good news. I know that HTC doesn't have the deep pockets to fight in court forever like Apple does, but Google should have helped out more.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 09:22 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Yet Apple is trying to lower cost on Motorola patents per phone
Apple only wants to pay a measly $1 per phone. I find myself hating them more and more. Irrational, I know, but I can't help it.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 09:35 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I think that everyone pays Microsoft at least $5/phone for bogus Linux patents they bought.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 05:52 AM   #27 (permalink)
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I'm really skeptical. Here's what I think happened.

Tim cook: *rubs hands* HTC are going DOWN! Yehaaaa!

Corporate Lawyer: do you think that is a good thing?

Tim: Yeah huh. One less to compete with...

Lawyer: So HTC customers will come to Apple?

Tim: Sure

Lawyer: They won't stick with Android?

Tim: Oh, well maybe

Lawyer: Most likely candidate?

Tim: Samsung?... Wait.... SAMSUNG? Oh no, oh no, oh no....... No more power to Samsung..... What can we do?????? ARRGGHHHHHH

Lawyer: Settle with HTC, keep them in the market. The more Android OEM's the better. Power is distributed.

Tim: Make it so.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 07:02 AM   #28 (permalink)
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I think that everyone pays Microsoft at least $5/phone for bogus Linux patents they bought.
I knew Microsoft was getting paid a fee, I wasn't sure what the amount was, but last I heard, they were making more from Android than from Windows Phone. Not sure if that's still the case, but since that's old and settled I guess it doesn't bother me as much. Plus, I _almost_ feel sorry for MIcrosoft these days lol.

I was thinking if HTC was paying Apple a buck or three per phone, ok, that's the cost of doing business. $6-$8 seems like admitting they were wrong, and who knows, maybe Apple actually had some legit claims.

Anyway, I'm sure they were in consultation with Google through all of this, and all of these guys are way smarter than I am, so I'm sure the deal must make sense for them, I just hate to see the Apple campaign of legalized extortion working for them.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 07:05 AM   #29 (permalink)
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^Me too.

Anyway, we don't know if those numbers are true or not.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 07:28 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Even if it is 6-8 per device, how much is HTC getting in return? When you compare actual device sales, even a 2 fee per device sold by Apple will probably end up financially a wash for both companies, at least in the near term... (Apple sold 3x the units HTC did, according to Gartner).
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Old November 13th, 2012, 12:49 PM   #31 (permalink)
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There is some speculation that some LTE patents were also involved in this agreement. So far nothing has been confirmed regarding LTE. It has been reported that Samsung was going to file a suite to block the iPhone 5 with the LTE patents. So far, nothing has happened on that front either.
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Old December 19th, 2012, 04:40 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Some new-ish details about the settlement came out via one of the countless Samsung lawsuits.

Apple-HTC settlement unsealed: No &ldquo;cloned products,&rdquo; no helping trolls | Ars Technica
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Old December 19th, 2012, 04:07 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Default Apple Patent 647 Data Tapping

As HTC and Apple have resolved their patent lawsuits does that apply to patent 647 - data tapping? This feature allows you to dial phone numbers in emails, websites etc. I used to have this functionality on my HTC phone but it was removed with an OTA "Update" from Verizon after HTC was sued. I really miss this feature and I am hoping that with the resolution of these lawsuits - data tapping will return. I understand the terms have been heavily redacted - so I have been unable to find out if this particular patent is included in the settlement. Anyone know anything?
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Old December 19th, 2012, 04:14 PM   #34 (permalink)
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.
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Old December 19th, 2012, 06:10 PM   #35 (permalink)
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I'm not sure. I think that was taken out of Android on ICS and up. My phone is still on Gingerbread and I still have that function. Agreed it is handy.
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Old December 21st, 2012, 08:11 AM   #36 (permalink)
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I found this on a website. If true then data tapping or linkify will be available once again on HTC phones. Hope so....




Well, they just posted it, and as expected the design patents were totally off limits. The only thing they could use are the utility patents (slide to unlock, linkify, search, etc.), but HTCs implementation has to be different than apple's. they pretty much licensed everything Samsung was found guilty of infringing, save for the iPhone trade dress. It will be interesting to see how this plays out, since apple clearly doesn't have a problem licensing them.
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Old December 21st, 2012, 08:55 AM   #37 (permalink)
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i feel that htc got rolled..
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Old December 21st, 2012, 09:15 AM   #38 (permalink)
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i feel that htc got rolled..
Given that one of patents they settled on may be overturned soon, I agree.

That's the way it goes, it's always on sale the next day.
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Old December 21st, 2012, 05:56 PM   #39 (permalink)
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There's still scads of appeals to be made.
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Old December 21st, 2012, 07:43 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Scads is a great word.

...just sayin'
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Old December 22nd, 2012, 07:31 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Given that one of patents they settled on may be overturned soon, I agree.

That's the way it goes, it's always on sale the next day.
I would guess that the lawyers have 'valid patents' type wording in the agreement; I doubt precautions were ignored.
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Old December 22nd, 2012, 08:33 PM   #42 (permalink)
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I would guess that the lawyers have 'valid patents' type wording in the agreement; I doubt precautions were ignored.
I would think that the patents are specifically called out by number, with consideration (legal term) for each or the sum.

I don't know that it's a moving target where there was an expectation that one of Apple's patents, the one that spearheaded their big Samsung win, could be overturned.

You're going to have to describe valid patent precautionary language, I don't see how that applies.
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