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Old January 27th, 2013, 02:41 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by RolaAddict View Post
Ok so let me get this straight.....the Librarian of Congress changed this law?A F'ING LIBRARIAN!?So I guess the ruling of the Supreme Court doesn't mean anything anymore.I don't see how one person has the power to do that.I see this article was from the LA Times so I'm sure they got something wrong in that write up.I've been interviewed by them before and my gf will tell you they DO misquote people very easily.The LA Times reporter I was interviewed by reminds me of the kid from the movie The Stupids starring Tom Arnold.
You should probably research the LOC before you post. And BTW, I am on the side of the unlockers in a very general way. No offense, but the Chief Liberian is not your typical librarian. He or she is appointed by the President of the United States and lest I remind you, it was such a person that made it legal to JB/ROOT our devices, siding with us against Apple.

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Old January 27th, 2013, 02:44 PM   #52 (permalink)
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I never said anything about any of the carriers financial situations. Frankly it doesn't matter. People signed a contract agreeing to certain terms, they should fulfill it.

This is only here to enforce that contract that people signed. Theres no real power to a contract that you can decide you don't like after they've given you a huge discount on your phone
I learned to read the fine print.

As it is now, I am in daily violation of my carrier's TOS which states I am NOT ALLOWED to use by cell phone for business purposes. Not sure too many of us would give using our cells for business a second thought; we would assume, well, Duh . . . sure we can use it for business.

Sadly, not according to the rules.
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Old January 27th, 2013, 02:44 PM   #53 (permalink)
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sorry...didn't know...lol...thought I would post tho
its all good. this has been popping up all over AF so you are not the only one....LOL
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Old January 27th, 2013, 02:48 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Or I can cut out the middle man and do it myself.
My money. My property. My decision.

Unless you bought one of those subsidized phones you will be paying for over the length of your contract. Then it is like buying a car or TV on time. You really do not own it. Yet.
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Old January 27th, 2013, 02:54 PM   #55 (permalink)
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This is your government hard at work. Instead of fixing things like the debt ceiling (delaying it is not fixing) and working together, they are wasting their time to pass laws to benefit big business.

Telcos already have early termination fees that supposed to pay for the subsidy on the phone. Either through the ETF or fullfilling the contract, you own that phone and should be able to do anything you want with it.

I guess the lobbyist dumped a lot of money in to politicians pockets. Just another grievance that keeps the telcos and politicians among the most hated around...
Perhaps, but there are tens of thousands of gubberment departments and they all have laws and rules thaty are of concern to others. I agree, fixing this or that might be more important than rooting, unlocking and JB issues.

That said, there are rules we consumers must abide by. If your service agreement/TOS says you cannot do this or that, then do not do this or that, rather than get upset because a ruling was made you do not agree with.

I think we should be allowed to unlock our phones. but I can see the reason for the change, too. If your TOS says NO CHANGES, then YOU are the one that broke the law, right? You gave your word that you would abide by the agreement you signed and so here you are, unlocking your cell to save money.
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Old January 27th, 2013, 03:10 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Default Re: Unlocking smartphones without permission illegal after 01/25/13

CDMA carriers already for the most part refuse to unlock their devices for other carriers, and I fear that the GSM carriers could follow suit. They know you're not allowed to unlock it, even if you buy the device outright, without their consent and can use it as leverage to induce you into using their service. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm not holding my breath.
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Old January 27th, 2013, 05:03 PM   #57 (permalink)
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You should probably research the LOC before you post. And BTW, I am on the side of the unlockers in a very general way. No offense, but the Chief Liberian is not your typical librarian. He or she is appointed by the President of the United States and lest I remind you, it was such a person that made it legal to JB/ROOT our devices, siding with us against Apple.
The JB/ROOT was a Supreme Court case had nothing to do with LOC.LOC deals with patents and patent protection rights if I remember correctly.Now if it is legal for us to JB/ROOT because as the decision was made that "it is the property of the consumer" and that the only thing a manufacturer can do is just "void the warranty of the product" if it has been JB/ROOTED then how in the hell is unlocking a phone different!?The unlockers are not taking the software/hardware and altering it in a way to make a similar product to sell.That's where LOC can step in due to violation of patent rights.An unlocked phone is still the same phone only it's able to be switched to another carrier.From a legal stand point of patent protection it doesn't violate it because the phone still has the original carrier/manufacturer names still on it.This reminds me of when Blink (I think that was the comany) made this software to allow Dreamcast owners to play PS 1 games on the Dreamcast.I think they got taken to court but I can't remember the out come.I believe as an individual you should be able to do whatever you want with the phone or whatever else you have.As long as you have paid for it they shouldn't be able to do anything.I'd like to see if anyone can sue based on this decision.
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Old January 27th, 2013, 05:25 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Default Re: Unlocking smartphones without permission illegal after 01/25/13

I really don't understand why this is so controversial
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Old January 27th, 2013, 05:30 PM   #59 (permalink)
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I think this is dumb as shit, when you pay several hundred dollars for anything you should be able to do whatever you want to it (E.G. prostitutes, then again they're illegal too).

I can't really complain though, I have no respect for the law (There are many, many obsolete laws and laws put in place because certain people tend to campaign to ban things instead of talking to their children or getting proper education about the subject themselves) and if something doesn't strike me as morally wrong I have no problem doing it.

Frankly this doesn't surprise me one bit.

I think the way it should be is that if a phone is only available with one carrier, but you want the phone and want/need to go with another carrier, you should go ahead and do it.
On the other hand, if your phone is available in multiple carriers and the carrier you don't want is offering a better deal, you should not hook up the deal with that carrier and then unlock your phone and use it with the carrier offering the worse deal just because the other carrier had a better deal.
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Old January 27th, 2013, 05:37 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Whew! For a split second I thought this meant no more rooting. I almost fainted.
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Old January 27th, 2013, 05:39 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Default Re: Unlocking smartphones without permission illegal after 01/25/13

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I think this is dumb as shit, when you pay several hundred dollars for anything you should be able to do whatever you want to it (E.G. prostitutes, then again they're illegal too).

I can't really complain though, I have no respect for the law (There are many, many obsolete laws and laws put in place because certain people tend to campaign to ban things instead of talking to their children or getting proper education about the subject themselves) and if something doesn't strike me as morally wrong I have no problem doing it.

Frankly this doesn't surprise me one bit.
I'd you buy the phone outright, you should be able to unlock it from just about any carrier.

If you're under contract, they won't unlock it because they gave you a $300-400 discount on that phone.

What's the problem?
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Old January 27th, 2013, 05:40 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Default Re: Attention---Unlocking Cell "NOW" illegal

Merged like threads
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Old January 27th, 2013, 05:55 PM   #63 (permalink)
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I'd you buy the phone outright, you should be able to unlock it from just about any carrier.

If you're under contract, they won't unlock it because they gave you a $300-400 discount on that phone.

What's the problem?
True, this is the way it should be in theory, but who says carriers don't abuse their power and refuse to unlock it even if you do buy it outright. It wouldn't be the first time a carrier abused it's power.
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Old January 27th, 2013, 07:31 PM   #64 (permalink)
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would not matter if it was unlocked or not. some phones only work on certain carriers regardless. i cannot use a CDMA phone on a GSM network, or vice versa, for example. which means my otherwise good LG Optimus V is still a paperweight or a very dinky wifi-only phablet
Thing is now, many CDMA phones are dual mode, they can do GSM/HSDPA as well as CDMA, e.g. the iPhone 4S and 5. If say a CDMA/GSM dual mode phone is locked to Verizon Wireless, it makes the GSM capability effectively useless. Also probably means you can't use it outside of the United States either, on any foreign GSM carrier.

Does CDMA do roaming? Can you roam a CDMA phone on another CDMA carrier? i.e. you have a CDMA phone that's locked to Verizon, would you be able to use it on China Telecom, which is a CDMA carrier?
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Old January 27th, 2013, 07:36 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Thing is now, many CDMA phones are dual mode, they can do GSM/HSDPA as well as CDMA, e.g. the iPhone 4S and 5. If say a CDMA/GSM dual mode phone is locked to Verizon Wireless, it makes the GSM capability effectively useless. Also probably means you can't use it outside of the United States either, on any foreign GSM carrier.

Does CDMA do roaming? Can you roam a CDMA phone on another CDMA carrier? i.e. you have a CDMA phone that's locked to Verizon, would you be able to use it on China Telecom, which is a CDMA carrier?
Yes, you can roam on other cdma networks, it happens quite a bit when I'm close to the Canadian border at the 1000 islands where Rogers has strong signal while Verizon is weak.
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Old January 27th, 2013, 08:14 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Sprint and Verizon are compatible with roaming as well
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Old January 27th, 2013, 08:44 PM   #67 (permalink)
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I'd you buy the phone outright, you should be able to unlock it from just about any carrier.

If you're under contract, they won't unlock it because they gave you a $300-400 discount on that phone.

What's the problem?
That's what the ETF is supposed to be for. And even if you buy the phone outright, the carrier has no obligation to unlock it for you. Some will provide the unlock code if you tell them you are going on vacation overseas or something, but they don't have to, and from what I've read, it's very inconsistent on whether they will do it or not. They should also be forced to unlock it once you have completed your contact, but they currently don't have to.

That's the problem.
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Old January 28th, 2013, 09:06 AM   #68 (permalink)
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Big difference between rooting/unlocking a phone and "carrier unlocking a phone".

All they're really saying is if for example you buy an AT&T phone under a 2 year contract that during those 2 years you can't carrier unlock the phone to use it on another provider like T-Mobile. Once the contract is up with the carrier you can do what you want. That's REALLY not a big deal.
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Old January 28th, 2013, 09:28 AM   #69 (permalink)
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It seems that it only refers to the unlocking of your device for use on other carriers. Rooting and unlocking the bootloader seem to still be fair game, legal wise. Carriers will say different
Which brings me to the big question. Where does the government get off making modifying ones own property illegal through regulation?

Do you own the phone or simply rent it?

It is like buying a car but being prohibited from changing the channel on the installed radio
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Old January 28th, 2013, 09:43 AM   #70 (permalink)
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Big difference between rooting/unlocking a phone and "carrier unlocking a phone".

All they're really saying is if for example you buy an AT&T phone under a 2 year contract that during those 2 years you can't carrier unlock the phone to use it on another provider like T-Mobile. Once the contract is up with the carrier you can do what you want. That's REALLY not a big deal.
So can I take my EVO V to Cricket for example since I'm not under contract with Virgin ?
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Old January 28th, 2013, 10:38 AM   #71 (permalink)
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Surely for those who want an unlocked phone, you simply shop around untill you find the phone you want supplied unlocked with whoever the carrier might be?

@ JIMV - to take your point and put it another way. is it legal to buy a replica M16 and make it fully functional?
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Old January 28th, 2013, 11:10 AM   #72 (permalink)
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Default Re: Unlocking smartphones without permission illegal after 01/25/13

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Which brings me to the big question. Where does the government get off making modifying ones own property illegal through regulation?

Do you own the phone or simply rent it?

It is like buying a car but being prohibited from changing the channel on the installed radio
If you buy the phone outright then its yours.

If you get a $400 discount offered by the carrier and sign a 2 year contract the phone is only truly yours after the contract is up.
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Old January 28th, 2013, 11:52 AM   #73 (permalink)
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I really don't understand why this is so controversial
It has to do with the nature of property and the concept of ownership...If I buy something I own it and can therefore do with it whatever I desire. If I buy a car I can replace the radio. If I buy a home I can repaint it. Apparently, if I buy a phone I can only do what the seller desires...

That is not ownership but some weird rent relationship.

Imagine if You bought a car but the car could only be driven on roads approved by the seller! Would you say you owned your car then?
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Old January 28th, 2013, 11:54 AM   #74 (permalink)
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Surely for those who want an unlocked phone, you simply shop around untill you find the phone you want supplied unlocked with whoever the carrier might be?

@ JIMV - to take your point and put it another way. is it legal to buy a replica M16 and make it fully functional?
With the proper permits and license, yes....
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Old January 28th, 2013, 11:55 AM   #75 (permalink)
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If you buy the phone outright then its yours.

If you get a $400 discount offered by the carrier and sign a 2 year contract the phone is only truly yours after the contract is up.
No, the phone is yours immediately. The contract is for the service, not the phone. They could care less which phone you use or if you use the ssytem at all. They simply demand their monthly check.
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Old January 28th, 2013, 12:07 PM   #76 (permalink)
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If you buy the phone outright then its yours.

If you get a $400 discount offered by the carrier and sign a 2 year contract the phone is only truly yours after the contract is up.

sorry buddy.. i do disagree with that.

i bought the phone.. even at a discount.. it is MINE..
if it breaks.. if it is stolen/lost... I have to deal with it..
the cost of ownership is mine to deal with, so it is mine to do as I please.

i did sign a contract to PURCHASE the phone at the discount. I am liable for the contract. I must fulfill the service agreement. i can also pay the EFT and get out of the contract.

these 2 things: phone and contact are separate.

i should be able to...
take that phone and do as I please.. even move it to another carrier.
just as long as the contract is being honored: keep paying the monthly service (with no phone or to another phone i have).. or pay the EFT and close the account.
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Old January 28th, 2013, 12:16 PM   #77 (permalink)
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Default Re: Unlocking smartphones without permission illegal after 01/25/13

You purchase a CD of your favorite band. You can play the music but you don't own it.
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Old January 28th, 2013, 12:19 PM   #78 (permalink)
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You purchase a CD of your favorite band. You can play the music but you don't own it.

but i can burn it.. trash it... give it away.. loan it out...make backups of it... sell it... listen to it on as many devices as i want, when i want, any where i want...

i own the CD.. not the music.

I own my phone.. i do not own the carrier/network.
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Old January 28th, 2013, 12:21 PM   #79 (permalink)
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If you buy the phone outright then its yours.

If you get a $400 discount offered by the carrier and sign a 2 year contract the phone is only truly yours after the contract is up.
Really?! Then how come if the phone breaks *I* have to pay to have it fixed or replaced?
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Old January 28th, 2013, 12:24 PM   #80 (permalink)
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sorry buddy.. i do disagree with that.

i bought the phone.. even at a discount.. it is MINE..
if it breaks.. if it is stolen/lost... I have to deal with it..
the cost of ownership is mine to deal with, so it is mine to do as I please.

i did sign a contract to PURCHASE the phone at the discount. I am liable for the contract. I must fulfill the service agreement. i can also pay the EFT and get out of the contract.

these 2 things: phone and contact are separate.

i should be able to...
take that phone and do as I please.. even move it to another carrier.
just as long as the contract is being honored: keep paying the monthly service (with no phone or to another phone i have).. or pay the EFT and close the account.
This is a gray area for most carriers, but you don't own the phone if you buy discounted at T-Mobile anymore. It's more like a loan you get from a bank that you have to pay back a little bit each month until the end of your contract. Though I don't think I've heard of phone repo if you don't pay it, though that would certainly be an interesting story to read. On the plus side, your bill is in fact less if you buy the device at full retail or BYOD. On the other carriers, there is no difference in your bill if you do this or not. So it can be argued that you do in fact own the device on these carriers.
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Old January 28th, 2013, 12:27 PM   #81 (permalink)
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no.. it is not a loan.. lease.. rent...

it is a purchase.. i agree to purchase at a lower cost..
in return.. i sign a contract for service.
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Old January 28th, 2013, 12:41 PM   #82 (permalink)
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So can I take my EVO V to Cricket for example since I'm not under contract with Virgin ?
or straight talk/verizon
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Old January 28th, 2013, 12:43 PM   #83 (permalink)
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You purchase a CD of your favorite band. You can play the music but you don't own it.
No, but you do own the CD and can do every task with that CD that it is capable of. You do not need permission to rip it to your PC to play it there. You do not need anyones permission to sell it. It is yours. The wireless services and their minions in government do not see ownership in the same way. You have all the responsibilities and limits while they can do pretty much whatever they desire to yor product. I remember a few years ago when Amazon sold a book for kindle, discovered they had a copywrite problem and then went back into everyones kindles who had bought the product and deleted it without permission.
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Old January 28th, 2013, 01:34 PM   #84 (permalink)
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So can I take my EVO V to Cricket for example since I'm not under contract with Virgin ?
Yes, because as I already stated and you repeated, you are not under a contract and that phone was not subsidized.

Now why you would leave VM for Cricket is beyond me. It's the same network but it costs you more. I made the switch from Cricket to VM because: it's the same network but costs less.
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Old January 28th, 2013, 02:16 PM   #85 (permalink)
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Government sticking their nose where it doesn't belong. What used to be "By the people, for the people" is now "By the rich, for the rich".
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Old January 28th, 2013, 02:18 PM   #86 (permalink)
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It is not the same network. That is wrong. LEAP Wireless (owner of the Cricket brand) operates their own CDMA network. VMU is wholly owned and operated by Sprint Nextel Corporation and uses that company's CDMA infrastructure. (also: you cannot carrier swap CDMA phones. The registration is done by IMEI, not using SIM cards, and carriers will not accept IMEI numbers for phone models that are not theirs. So not only is the recent DMCA decision irrelevant to bootloader locking, it's irrelevant to any CDMA carrier entirely.)
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Old January 28th, 2013, 02:25 PM   #87 (permalink)
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Another data point: Straight Talk is an imprint of America Movil, which is the owner of the Tracfone brand. They do NOT have their own infrastructure in the United States, but instead of a patchwork of roaming agreements, which recently apparently has expanded to include Verizon Wireless. However, if you think Verizon is letting Straight Talkers get full-speed access to data, or even letting them on all of their towers, then you clearly don't know Verizon very well. Virgin is an excellent deal. Don't take a good thing and ruin it by trying to chase some imaginary better thing.
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Old January 28th, 2013, 02:39 PM   #88 (permalink)
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no.. it is not a loan.. lease.. rent...

it is a purchase.. i agree to purchase at a lower cost..
in return.. i sign a contract for service.
And the length of that contract repays the discount. That's part of why you have fees if you cancel the contract early.

The whole purpose of this law is to help ensure you follow through with the contract you signed.

If a person wants to unlock it either buy the phone outright or follow through on contractual obligations
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Old January 28th, 2013, 02:52 PM   #89 (permalink)
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Exactly. Virgin is the best prepaid company out there if you want a smartphone..
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Old January 28th, 2013, 03:09 PM   #90 (permalink)
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Exactly. Virgin is the best prepaid company out there if you want a smartphone..
I'm not arguing with you because I haven't used any prepaid service yet but the new Monthly 4G Prepaid Plan from T-Mobile looks pretty good with unlimited everything for $50/month. I may give that a try when my Sprint contract expires since LTE isn't coming to my area anytime soon.

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Old January 28th, 2013, 03:13 PM   #91 (permalink)
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But is there anything in the new law that says the owner can unlock their phone once the contract has ended? If not, then there is a problem.
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Old January 28th, 2013, 03:19 PM   #92 (permalink)
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i'm not arguing with you because i haven't used any prepaid service yet but the new monthly 4g prepaid plan from t-mobile looks pretty good with unlimited everything for $50/month. I may give that a try when my sprint contract expires since lte isn't coming to my area anytime soon.

Ramjet73
except for 100mb of data
AND 500$ FOR A gs2 ... YIKES
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Old January 28th, 2013, 03:29 PM   #93 (permalink)
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except for 100mb of data
AND 500$ FOR A gs2 ... YIKES
That's only for 4G (HSPA+ which some people don't consider "real" 4G) speeds, but the actual data usage is still unlimited. And you can get 100 minutes with unlimited text and data for $30/month with 4G speeds up to 5 GB and probably use VoIP instead of cellular for most calls.

And I would be spending $300 for a Nexus 4 from the Play Store, not $500 for a GS2.

So how does Virgin Mobile compare? I haven't looked at their plans yet, so what do you have?

ramjet73
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Old January 28th, 2013, 03:37 PM   #94 (permalink)
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Yes, because as I already stated and you repeated, you are not under a contract and that phone was not subsidized.

Now why you would leave VM for Cricket is beyond me. It's the same network but it costs you more. I made the switch from Cricket to VM because: it's the same network but costs less.
Just using Cricket for an example.
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Old January 28th, 2013, 03:41 PM   #95 (permalink)
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It is not the same network. That is wrong. LEAP Wireless (owner of the Cricket brand) operates their own CDMA network. VMU is wholly owned and operated by Sprint Nextel Corporation and uses that company's CDMA infrastructure. (also: you cannot carrier swap CDMA phones. The registration is done by IMEI, not using SIM cards, and carriers will not accept IMEI numbers for phone models that are not theirs. So not only is the recent DMCA decision irrelevant to bootloader locking, it's irrelevant to any CDMA carrier entirely.)
I flashed my old Verizon phone (what ever it was.) to Cricket with no problems what so ever.
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Old January 28th, 2013, 03:44 PM   #96 (permalink)
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And the length of that contract repays the discount. That's part of why you have fees if you cancel the contract early.

The whole purpose of this law is to help ensure you follow through with the contract you signed.

If a person wants to unlock it either buy the phone outright or follow through on contractual obligations
yes.. contract and i have to fulfill it. me, company, and a contract. the phone is not part of it.

there is .. contract law already used buy the rest of the world!!!!!

should there be law written for contract on cable service too? and all the other services we sign up for?

this is just silly!
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Old January 28th, 2013, 03:47 PM   #97 (permalink)
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I'm not arguing with you because I haven't used any prepaid service yet but the new Monthly 4G Prepaid Plan from T-Mobile looks pretty good with unlimited everything for $50/month. I may give that a try when my Sprint contract expires since LTE isn't coming to my area anytime soon.

ramjet73
If and when I get my Nexus4, I'll be on T-Mobile's $30/month plan, 5Gs,100 talk plan for starters. See how that go's,then maybe the $50 plan.
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Old January 28th, 2013, 04:48 PM   #98 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by buzzcon View Post
Government sticking their nose where it doesn't belong. What used to be "By the people, for the people" is now "By the rich, for the rich".
While the quickest route for the world of the mediocre to wealth is through government, the real problem was said better than I...

"There is no power above them, to control any of their decisions. There is no authority that can remove them, and they cannot be controlled by the laws of the legislature. In short, they are independent of the people, of the legislature, and of every power under heaven. Men placed in this situation will generally soon feel themselves independent of heaven itself" – Robert Yates “Brutus” – anti-federalist

He was speaking of the courts over 200 years ago but it certainly is an apt description of todays government. Where else can one get into office in the upper middle class and leave service, working only for government, a very wealthy man?
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Old January 28th, 2013, 05:13 PM   #99 (permalink)
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Default Re: Unlocking smartphones without permission illegal after 01/25/13

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yes.. contract and i have to fulfill it. me, company, and a contract. the phone is not part of it.

there is .. contract law already used buy the rest of the world!!!!!

should there be law written for contract on cable service too? and all the other services we sign up for?

this is just silly!
The phone is the biggest bargaining chip the carrier has.

What would be the purpose of unlocking the phone while on contract?
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Old January 28th, 2013, 05:16 PM   #100 (permalink)
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The phone is the biggest bargaining chip the carrier has.

What would be the purpose of unlocking the phone while on contract?

travel?

dont matter what the reason!.. it is my right to unlock it. if i wish.
smash it .. if i wish.

all i have to do.. is keep paying the monthly bill .. till end of contract.. or pay EFT
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