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Old February 20th, 2013, 09:34 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default why lock bootloaders?

More specifically, why does HTC insist on locking them down more than say Sammy? They know we are eventually going to break the lock anyway, so it is nothing more than a pain in the arse that discourages us from buying HTC?
I just don't get the logic there?
Does anyone have a serious and logical hypothesis or theory for why HTC (and Moto) are so damn stubborn?

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Old February 20th, 2013, 09:57 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: why lock bootloaders?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAtheistReverend View Post
More specifically, why does HTC insist on locking them down more than say Sammy? They know we are eventually going to break the lock anyway, so it is nothing more than a pain in the arse that discourages us from buying HTC?
I just don't get the logic there?
Does anyone have a serious and logical hypothesis or theory for why HTC (and Moto) are so damn stubborn?
HTC offers HTC dev to unlock it

They lock it for many reasons. Two of the biggest ones: The carriers want them locked to prevent tethering, and it also prevents you from bricking the device and them eating the cost of repairs.

Also, the large majority of smartphone buyers don't know what a locked bootloader is and will never care, so its mostly good for HTC/moto to do it'
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Old February 20th, 2013, 10:04 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: why lock bootloaders?

It's also important to note that encrypted bootloaders aren't usually broken by the dev community. Work arounds have been found, but devices are only unlocked using tools provided by the oem, whether intentional or not.
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Old February 20th, 2013, 10:07 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: why lock bootloaders?

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Originally Posted by jhawkkw View Post
It's also important to note that encrypted bootloaders aren't usually broken by the dev community. Work arounds have been found, but devices are only unlocked using tools provided by the oem, whether intentional or not.

They have been for both of my HTC devices rather quickly. Then they patch it, and the devs find a new hole within a few weeks.
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Old February 20th, 2013, 10:13 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: why lock bootloaders?

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They have been for both of my HTC devices rather quickly. Then they patch it, and the devs find a new hole within a few weeks.
HTC might be easier than most, but there's a reason why no one has cracked an encrypted Motorola bootloader yet.
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Old February 20th, 2013, 10:17 PM   #6 (permalink)
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This still doesn't make sense. Why lock it? Joe shmo doesn't care, so HTC should'nt care. Inspired community members are GOING to get it if they want it.
I maintain that it serves no real purpose other than to piss us off and make us not want to buy that brand because if it pisses us off, then we must want it unlocked.
Carriers have nothing to do with it, I think.
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Old February 20th, 2013, 10:24 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: why lock bootloaders?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAtheistReverend View Post
This still doesn't make sense. Why lock it? Joe shmo doesn't care, so HTC should'nt care. Inspired community members are GOING to get it if they want it.
I maintain that it serves no real purpose other than to piss us off and make us not want to buy that brand because if it pisses us off, then we must want it unlocked.
Carriers have nothing to do with it, I think.
Carriers have a huge part of it.

Look at Verizon? They make you pay more for a "developer edition" if you wasn't a bootloader than can be unlocked.

Also why most moto phones are Verizon....they lock the bootloaderrs down like fort knox
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Old February 20th, 2013, 10:25 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: why lock bootloaders?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAtheistReverend View Post
This still doesn't make sense. Why lock it? Joe shmo doesn't care, so HTC should'nt care. Inspired community members are GOING to get it if they want it.
I maintain that it serves no real purpose other than to piss us off and make us not want to buy that brand because if it pisses us off, then we must want it unlocked.
Carriers have nothing to do with it, I think.
Carriers are the biggest reason unfortunately. They have the ability to dictate to android Oems because if they don't bend, the cdma carriers won't allow network access and will allow access to those who bend to their demands. The gsm carriers can't deny access, but they can refuse to subsidize it for the customers. Without the subsidy, most people won't buy it and the oem losses money.
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Old February 20th, 2013, 10:26 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: why lock bootloaders?

It's basically like adding security to DVDs or blurays, why am I not able to make a backup of movies I paid 20$ for? Then again if you really want to you can find a way. Maybe it's just so that the companies aren't seen as people who actually want their customers to do whatever they want with their phones. Even though we should be able to.
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Old February 20th, 2013, 10:45 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: why lock bootloaders?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhawkkw View Post
Carriers are the biggest reason unfortunately. They have the ability to dictate to android Oems because if they don't bend, the cdma carriers won't allow network access and will allow access to those who bend to their demands. The gsm carriers can't deny access, but they can refuse to subsidize it for the customers. Without the subsidy, most people won't buy it and the oem losses money.

Does HTC lock down their phones "more" or "harder" on Verizon than others?

I'm ignorant, but I would think they don't. If that is true, then the carrier argument is invalid in my mind.


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It's basically like adding security to DVDs or blurays, why am I not able to make a backup of movies I paid 20$ for? Then again if you really want to you can find a way. Maybe it's just so that the companies aren't seen as people who actually want their customers to do whatever they want with their phones. Even though we should be able to.
Except Joe-shmo can run an easily accessible and automated program to burn their dvds. I need to actually work to unlock my boot loader, let alone flash recoveries or ROMs.
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Old February 20th, 2013, 10:52 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: why lock bootloaders?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAtheistReverend View Post
Does HTC lock down their phones "more" or "harder" on Verizon than others?

I'm ignorant, but I would think they don't. If that is true, then the carrier argument is invalid in my mind.
I'm not too sure about HTC because I've never owned their devices, but I do know that Samsung encrypted the bootloader on the gs3 and note2 on Verizon, but not on any other carrier. Also, Motorola has an unlock tool for their bootloaders, but none of the devices that it supports are on Verizon.
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Old February 20th, 2013, 10:56 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: why lock bootloaders?

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I'm not too sure about HTC because I've never owned their devices, but I do know that Samsung encrypted the bootloader on the gs3 and note2 on Verizon, but not on any other carrier. Also, Motorola has an unlock tool for their bootloaders, but none of the devices that it supports are on Verizon.
Wow. Good info!

What the heck?! Verizon again?!
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Old February 20th, 2013, 10:59 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: why lock bootloaders?

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Wow. Good info!

What the heck?! Verizon again?!
Yep, only reason they unlocked the Verizon gs3 was because some Samsung employee leaked a compatible bootloader that was already cracked. The note 2 got unlocked by using a method that tricks it into thinking it's a gs3 and using a modified version of that leak.
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Old February 20th, 2013, 11:00 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhawkkw View Post
I'm not too sure about HTC because I've never owned their devices, but I do know that Samsung encrypted the bootloader on the gs3 and note2 on Verizon, but not on any other carrier. Also, Motorola has an unlock tool for their bootloaders, but none of the devices that it supports are on Verizon.
Exactly.

And you can buy a "developer edition" phone on verizon that they let you unlock...... and it isnt subsidized. So you pay the full $650+ depending on the phone

S3 price listed
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Old February 20th, 2013, 11:03 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: why lock bootloaders?

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Exactly.

And you can buy a "developer edition" phone on verizon that they let you unlock...... and it isnt subsidized. So you pay the full $600+ depending on the phone
If I recall correctly, you can't even buy them through Verizon, you have to buy them directly from the oem.
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Old February 20th, 2013, 11:05 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
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If I recall correctly, you can't even buy them through Verizon, you have to buy them directly from the oem.
Correct

Samsung Galaxy S® III (Verizon), 32GB Developer Edition | Samsung Mobile
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Old February 21st, 2013, 12:58 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Depends on the perspective ...
From a perspective of a developer ,hacker ,ROM flasher-fanatic ..Locked Bootloader is a hindrance .Thats a minority ...

To be precise smartphone were designed to use in corporates and offices .
if I were an employer ,the last thing i would want is ,employees with phones having locked bootloaders ..
As an employer ,I would actually love phones with iron tight bootloaders and encrypted file systems .
Gingerbread introduced Encryption on android and i believe it was implemented on most moto phones rather quickly
That was moto's(and is maybe) target audience .

To put into perceptive
For a locked bootloader + encrypted File system ,it's impossible to extract data from a phone dump without a password and it is relatively hard to get a phone dump .

For a locked BL without encryption (without the option of official unlocking):It still is hard to get a phone dump ,and if there is a patch there is a chance of data corruption to data wipe .Relatively it's still safe ..

For a locked BL with an option to unlock : The dev option wipes the data so there is no chance to recover it .The security level is similar as above IMO .

For an unlocked Bootloader :It will take 10 minutes to dump the data , 5 minutes to copy ...Faster if there is an access to external media ...

The legal definition of computer is

Quote:
the term “computer” means an electronic, magnetic, optical, electrochemical, or other high speed data processing device performing logical, arithmetic, or storage functions, and includes any data storage facility or communications facility directly related to or operating in conjunction with such device, but such term does not include an automated typewriter or typesetter, a portable hand held calculator, or other similar device;
so a smartphone ,fits the criteria and can be assumed as a computing device .
People have strict restrictions on usage and security of a computing device used for the purpose .
So Locked Bootloader is a measure of protection offered against hacking and data theft to a reasonable extent .
It is more relevant if a data theft occurs and cause damages and it needs to be proved that the relevant device from which the theft occurred had reasonable security in place to prevent such theft .

Thats corporate .Device is not the perspective ,Data is .

For Consumer view ,95% of smartphone consumers dont care enough if bootloader is locked or unlocked or WTF is bootloader .
So it is more relevant to have a phone locked in first place .

Because when you have an option to unlock (the agree button) ,you claim to know the consequences of unlocking which also includes the ability to flash custom kernels or use fastboot protocol to procure data .The responsibility is transferred to you .

If you unlock Bootloader using hacking then it is device tampering to unauthorized access which again is the responsibility of consumer .

If you check the update history of carriers ,OS exploits are patched quickly ,user/UI/device updates take a while ..Again to provide secure system .

tl;dr
Locked BL is a security mechanism which is provided by carrier to avoid law suits related to data theft .
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Old February 21st, 2013, 01:23 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Lets face it some people don't need to be tinkering anyways.
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Old February 21st, 2013, 07:57 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: why lock bootloaders?

The business application is respectable and one I always understood with out difficulty. What I don't like is that they take away the choice for those who do want to tinker. If you're counting, Verizon has not released a phone with an unencrypted bootloader since the gnex in December of 2011. So as far as tinkering goes, Verizon is not offering choice to those who do want to tinker. Yes there's those dev phones that one could purchase, but not many people are going to spend that kind of money for one.
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Old February 21st, 2013, 09:29 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAtheistReverend View Post
This still doesn't make sense. Why lock it? Joe shmo doesn't care, so HTC should'nt care. Inspired community members are GOING to get it if they want it.
I maintain that it serves no real purpose other than to piss us off and make us not want to buy that brand because if it pisses us off, then we must want it unlocked.
Carriers have nothing to do with it, I think.
Well, if most users do not care, it really matters very little if a handful of users who want to unlock the BL are pissed off. They do not represent the majority of buyers. Manufacturers and/or carriers do not want people fooling around where manufacturers and carriers think we do not belong.

Seems to me that out of the tiny fraction of those that want unlocked loaders, only a tiny fraction of those know what they are doing in the first place and some of these people have problems. Many people get into trouble trying to root/unlock/jailbreak their devices because they really do not know what they are doing.

When the majority of buyers become pissed, things have a way of changing. A small number of pissed off people matter very little.
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Old March 1st, 2013, 02:25 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Default Re: why lock bootloaders?

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Does HTC lock down their phones "more" or "harder" on Verizon than others?

I'm ignorant, but I would think they don't. If that is true, then the carrier argument is invalid in my mind.
They do. Verizon can and has asked HTC to not make their unlocking tool available, and that's happened.
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Old March 1st, 2013, 08:00 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Here:

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Old March 1st, 2013, 11:34 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Default Re: why lock bootloaders?

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That's regarding carrier locking, not bootloader locking.
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