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Old September 12th, 2013, 04:42 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Why you don't want Fingerprint ID

To sum: the Fifth Amendment, guarantees “no person shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself"." But that only applies to “testimonial” of your mind. The government can collect biometrics like fingerprints, DNA samples, because this evidence doesn’t reveal anything you know and is therefore - not testimonial.

Apple's Fingerprint ID May Mean You Can't 'Take the Fifth' | Wired Opinion | Wired.com

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Old September 12th, 2013, 04:47 PM   #2 (permalink)
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For real? I wonder what apples reaction to this would be?
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Old September 12th, 2013, 05:08 PM   #3 (permalink)
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For real? I wonder what apples reaction to this would be?
Probably some variation of the ol' "you're holding it wrong" go to in their playbook.
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Old September 13th, 2013, 05:30 PM   #4 (permalink)
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At one time, you had to put a fingerprint on your checks. Guess there were a lot of forgeries going around at the time.
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Old September 13th, 2013, 07:37 PM   #5 (permalink)
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if i had some need for a fingerprint scanner on my phone, i'd think i would need to re-evaluate my life a bit. are people really that tin-foil hatty? I mean, it's a smartphone, not a bank vault!
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Old September 14th, 2013, 05:41 AM   #6 (permalink)
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It's just another secure locking/unlocking mechanism for pete's sake, no different in function to the PIN, password or pattern lock that Android has. Maybe you don't keep any info on your phone that you wouldn't mind a stranger sifting through if they found the device, but many others do.
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Old September 14th, 2013, 07:41 AM   #7 (permalink)
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It is inconvenient. It would be far easier to allow locking certain apps as a group or lock data connections so voice and text only work.

If I locked my phone, the Vulcan couldn't use it in an emergency, or check a text message.
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Old September 14th, 2013, 08:19 AM   #8 (permalink)
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The bias is so funny to me, as well as hypocritical.

Here Apple is being bashed for the fingerprint scanner, but when it was announced so many people talked about "well android did it first".

So it seems to me, if android users want to brag that it was on Android first and bash Apple, then you also have to bash Motorola for doing it first and having it not catch on.
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Old September 14th, 2013, 09:38 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Have never used a security lock on my phone. This is something, if it worked as shown in the keynote, I might be interested in. I unlock my phone all day long, I don't have time to enter a pin. Also, I have Cerberus installed as a system app, so if stolen or lost, I can remotely wipe it.
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Old September 14th, 2013, 10:13 AM   #10 (permalink)
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you are correct. the only info stored in my phone are MP3s and a few photos of my pets. and even those are backed up to other media. that is because it's a smartphone. it could be easily lost, stolen, broken, smashed, crushed, disassembled at any time. a fingerprint scanner is just another redundant piece of hardware that can fail or glitch out and lock a legitimate user from their device.

it's just like those newer cars with VATS security. i have one of them, a Pontiac Bonneville with a chip inside the key, supposedly the only key that will start the car. unfortunately for GM, they realized later on that the system failed often and prevented the owner from using their own vehicle; in essence, preventing the person from stealing their own car. radios with TheftLock also had issues and that one remains unresolved overall. i am not sure about you guys, but i am not very keen on paying someone $150 to unlock my phone if such a system fails. it's just VATS systems for our phones. I feel that anyone keeping extremely sensitive data on a device likely to be stolen or broken, needs to seek mental help. if you have bank info or such, it's far safer to be stored in a fire-proof safe somewhere. such a safe would benefit far more from fingerprint/retina/biometrics if you ask me.
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Old September 15th, 2013, 01:53 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickdalzell View Post
I feel that anyone keeping extremely sensitive data on a device likely to be stolen or broken, needs to seek mental help.
Sorry, but that's way OTT. You're also implying I require mental help?

Do you keep your bank cards in your wallet?

What's worse? Keeping sensitive data on a device that's protected by a pin/passcode/finger print scanner or keeping your bank/credit card in your wallet? Both are easily lost or stolen, but the cards blatantly display sensitive sort code and account information.
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Old September 15th, 2013, 07:41 AM   #12 (permalink)
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If using the cards was totally separate from the phone service and other apps it could be interesting. Say it was an app from the credit card company rather than Google Wallet or Iris? I don't care for the fact that phone info might show. Give some merchants phone numbers or any info and bang! you have SPAM. Aside from verifying payment received, they have no business contacting you.

Right now, stores that want addresses and zip codes to help them market either get told where to go, or given wrong info. The CC company has the right address.
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Old September 15th, 2013, 09:12 AM   #13 (permalink)
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I wouldn't keep anything that sensitive on my phone that I would need to worry about 5th Amendment issues. Really if you are that worried about it, either don't keep it on your device or use some third party encryption with an insanely long pass phrase, that you don't write down anywhere.

I find that the fingerprint reader is on par with the facial recognition unlock that many devices have already. I wouldn't consider this "ironclad" security, but it is useful for things like keeping a child out of your phone etc. I turn on the facial unlock when I would be over at my brother's house. My nephew loves anything electronic (he even bought a game through XBOX live).
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Old September 15th, 2013, 03:32 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Codegerm View Post
I wouldn't keep anything that sensitive on my phone that I would need to worry about 5th Amendment issues. Really if you are that worried about it, either don't keep it on your device or use some third party encryption with an insanely long pass phrase, that you don't write down anywhere.
You simply do not know what is on your phone that could tie you to a crime you know nothing about. Add to that fact that police are tricky and they can eek a confession out of a rock. Also, understand that the cops are legally allowed to lie to you, you simply do NOT know what can bite you in the seat of your pantaloons.
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Old September 15th, 2013, 04:09 PM   #15 (permalink)
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My concern isn't what is on my phone. I don't have to worry about what pics are on there etc.

My concern is the access someone would gain by having my unlocked phone in their possession. Password resets are sent to my gmail account - which they now have access to. Actually a smart thief would go straight to my gmail account and change the password using the two-factor I have set up on my phone. Then go through my gmail to see what accounts he can password reset that will authenticate through my gmail. Then through the browser to see what shopping sites, financial sites, etc I frequent. Could be the easiest way to steal my identity short of getting into my locked filed cabinet at home.
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Old September 15th, 2013, 04:38 PM   #16 (permalink)
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That's why I use Boat Browser and delete everything on exit. I don't use widgets on the browser. I'll go to the regular web site. I do the same on the PC. I don't like Google's accounts being so wide open. You can get into Play right on the phone.

Gmail is frozen by TB, which also should have its own password, and I can tell Aquamail to require password on request for sync. I don't sync automatically.

Maps, social locations, Now are removed by TB. They can find location by Weatherbug or any astronomy program that has the coordinates set. In the astronomy programs, you have to use latitude and longitude.

I don't keep the EXIF info on photos. I know where and when I took them. I don't keep it on the regular cameras, so it's a quirk.

I do have a finance program, but no bank name. Just track use of cc. No name on cc. Plus it requires a separate login.

I still think you should be able to lock certain groups of programs and leave public usage free. The Vulcan is getting interested in my phone - kid likes to look a photos
and as far as I'm concerned, those, weather, and phone calls should be available.
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Old September 15th, 2013, 04:49 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Maxey View Post
You simply do not know what is on your phone that could tie you to a crime you know nothing about. Add to that fact that police are tricky and they can eek a confession out of a rock. Also, understand that the cops are legally allowed to lie to you, you simply do NOT know what can bite you in the seat of your pantaloons.

Again, I DO know what exactly is on my phone, and no I don't have to worry about any of it. As for the way law enforcement operates, I am well aware, having worked with them on many levels that others haven't. Yes, they use tactics to try to trip a suspect up, but that is nothing new.
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Old September 15th, 2013, 04:54 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Damn Siamese and Snowshoes on vet prescribed food with GAS! I got stunk out last night.
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Old September 15th, 2013, 05:20 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Damn Siamese and Snowshoes on vet prescribed food with GAS! I got stunk out last night.
lol
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Old September 16th, 2013, 08:09 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Codegerm View Post
lol
Wrong forum, thought I was on Rants.

Anyway:
Datenschützer warnt vor Fingerscanner im iPhone - SPIEGEL ONLINE

Either Google will translate or one of our German speakers will.
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Old September 16th, 2013, 09:57 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Wrong forum, thought I was on Rants.

Anyway:
Datenschützer warnt vor Fingerscanner im iPhone - SPIEGEL ONLINE

Either Google will translate or one of our German speakers will.
That's quite okay. I thought it was quite funny, especially coming right out of the blue..
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Old September 16th, 2013, 04:15 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Maybe this is why:

Dear Apple: Good Luck Against The Smartphone Black Market : All Tech Considered : NPR

New York daily complaining about uptick in crime every time a new Iphone hits the market.
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Old September 17th, 2013, 07:04 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Now the whole thing is getting silly:

Apple's Fingerprint ID May Mean You Can't 'Take the Fifth' | Wired Opinion | Wired.com

London Tube Cleaners Don't Want Fingerprint Clock-in - Slashdot

iPhone 5S haters: here's how you steal a fingerprint | TG Daily
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Old September 17th, 2013, 09:36 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pool_shark View Post
The bias is so funny to me, as well as hypocritical.

Here Apple is being bashed for the fingerprint scanner, but when it was announced so many people talked about "well android did it first".

So it seems to me, if android users want to brag that it was on Android first and bash Apple, then you also have to bash Motorola for doing it first and having it not catch on.
And that people still were. Yes, we said Android had it first, then we said, it still failed that's why no other phone (outside of possibly the HTC One Max) has implemented it.
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Old September 17th, 2013, 09:44 AM   #25 (permalink)
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My preference would be to use NFC rather than fingerprint. At least NFC can be replaced and deactivated or unpaired if lost. Fingerprints, not so much.
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Old September 17th, 2013, 07:22 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I don't like the creepiness of it , that is all.
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Old September 17th, 2013, 10:51 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Old September 18th, 2013, 03:49 AM   #28 (permalink)
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This is one fingerprint thing that always spooked me out....
Disney World scans fingerprint details of park visitors - The Boston Globe

What the hell is Mickey Mouse going to do with my fingerprints? When I went to Hong Kong Disneyland I put a knuckle to the scanner, and it took it.
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Old September 18th, 2013, 05:42 AM   #29 (permalink)
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If you misbehave in an American or other Disney anything, they know where to find you.

At one time, a local supermarket made everyone who used a check put a fingerprint on the check.
I think there was a spate of forgeries going on. Crooks were watching mailboxes for shipment of checks and grabbing them.
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Old September 18th, 2013, 05:45 AM   #30 (permalink)
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I think the only purpose of fingerprint ID is for security reason.
 
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Old September 18th, 2013, 09:35 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by webdesign24 View Post
I think the only purpose of fingerprint ID is for security reason.
Maybe that was Apple's intention, but it can and will be misused.

There is a lot of fussing going on in some states about what info law enforcement is allowed to get from your phone without a warrant of some kind.
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Old September 18th, 2013, 03:14 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by El Presidente View Post
Sorry, but that's way OTT. You're also implying I require mental help?

Do you keep your bank cards in your wallet?

What's worse? Keeping sensitive data on a device that's protected by a pin/passcode/finger print scanner or keeping your bank/credit card in your wallet? Both are easily lost or stolen, but the cards blatantly display sensitive sort code and account information.
You can't declare fraud, charge-back, reclaim and have your data that may or may not be encrypted, reissued in a way that's safe from compromise. *Your Device*

You can do all of these, on your bank cards. *Credit, Debit, examples that comply*

While I don't necessarily agree with stating users have a mental problem with keeping extremely sensitive information on them, I have been surprised time and time again. Some people carry information that can potentially cause you identity theft, or loss of income, outside of the bank. (Birth Certificates, Social Security Numbers, et centra.) Materials that can be extremely risky, shouldn't be uploaded to a phone. I don't think your fingerprint is that 'sensitive', for anyone can get yours, just wait. Grab of a door handle, a glass, almost any surface, your print is either easy to get without materials, or with materials normally limited to investigators.

I have been able to crack, hack, whatever you want to call it, sensitive data that can ruin a person's life, from their cell phone. I always give them a look of disapproval when I find this stuff, because it's easier to manipulate, than a bank account, where fraud can lead one to arrest, if caught. (Do not judge my character on this, these are just my thoughts, my worst sight, is seeing someone lose anything. I hate and fear loss.)

Having any personal data, and then losing that device, opens you up to so many problems, unless you have means to disable the android, or remotely destroy all information on there. I do not sponsor or recommend any service, free or not, as I have never experienced this kind of problem, as my last phone went missing back in 2005, and it was an old Virgin Mobile Nokia, which model escapes me at the moment, but it was a really old phone that did not have any applications, or anything short of phone, text messages and games. I do not like having any mobile banking, work, items, even e-mail and the like, on my phone. *With the rare indulgence to Starbucks, and that's because I am being given free food and drinks, the only thing linked on that application, is my card, which is not linked to any other bank accounts* In the end, it's really the end user who's ultimately responsible for keeping whatever data they do, on a mobile device, instead of their 'safe-house/home/work/wherever'.
~~~
I would not mind using a fingerprint to utilize my phone, however, for some reason, I tend to cut my fingers quite a bit, through habitual nibbling, stabbing with raw hardware, paper cuts, chemical burns, life, to the point I am not confident the technology would do too much good. Perhaps in the hands of Government, Corporates and High-Security users, maybe, but I was under the impression that this type of tech was readily available.

Now, for Legal reason, I do not necessarily see how the fingerprint invalidates your fifth right for the United States, other than the fact your print shouldn't be on there...and I highly doubt that one single piece of 'evidence', can link you to something, there has to be more, and without a reasonable doubt...however, I am not a legal expert, perhaps one can shed some light.

For other countries and different law enforcement statues, I am not certain this will go over too well, where a single print on let's say, a bullet, lands you ten years in the slammer.

I would like the idea of challenging, besides with a fingerprint, asking a question or requesting a personal identification number, that changes the more you use the device. Let us say that you put your finger in, and it asks for your favorite color, or you open it and instead of a finger print, it asks for that PIN, and vice-verse, keep it continuously changing, to hamper almost any risk of it being compromised. I wonder if that is even possible, that way no fool can lose their print, and their phone, along with their data.

On the privacy part that some users are complaining about for who knows why, if you have nothing to hide, stop acting like it. I am so sick of hearing the same bull about privacy, and privacy and more privacy, face it, in world of today and tomorrow, as social media and technology advances, your privacy is gone as you know it. If you thought that there is such a free thing on Facebook, Twitter, et centra, think again.

Why Social Media is Not Free - American Marketing Association
Hubbytes - Why Social Media is Not Free!
(Pretty sure there is a lengthier article somewhere...)

The day that my device is lost, is the day I simply failed to keep track of my stuff, it happened once, lesson learned, and never again.
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Old September 21st, 2013, 12:11 PM   #33 (permalink)
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can we change the 5th amendment?
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Old September 21st, 2013, 08:29 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zuben el genub View Post
There is a lot of fussing going on in some states about what info law enforcement is allowed to get from your phone without a warrant of some kind.
The simple solution for that is for the requirement of warrant always.
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Old September 22nd, 2013, 02:46 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Hackers claim to have foiled Apple's new Touch ID system | The Verge
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Old September 22nd, 2013, 07:23 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Good, now we can see what a dumb idea this is. Our security just isnt good enough for us to have this technology.
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Old September 23rd, 2013, 02:23 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Here's some suprising amount of clarity from MN Sen. Al Franken...

Quote:
"If someone hacks your password, you can change it – as many times as you want," Franken, a Democrat from Minnesota, said in a letter sent Thursday to Apple CEO Tim Cook. "You can’t change your fingerprints. You have only ten of them. And you leave them on everything you touch; they are definitely not a secret."
Franken added that a fingerprint uniquely identifies its owner, unlike a string of numbers and letters.
"Let me put it this way: if hackers get a hold of your thumbprint, they could use it to identify and impersonate you for the rest of your life," he wrote. Franken's office released the letter to the media Friday.
Source: Sen. Al Franken: iPhone Fingerprint Scanner Raises 'Significant Privacy Questions'
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Old September 24th, 2013, 08:01 PM   #38 (permalink)
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That escalated quickly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabidhunter View Post
Here's some suprising amount of clarity from MN Sen. Al Franken...



Source: Sen. Al Franken: iPhone Fingerprint Scanner Raises 'Significant Privacy Questions'
Has Apple posted a response to this? Nice share.
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Old September 24th, 2013, 09:12 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Considering all fingerprint readers have their weaknesses. I would consider this method no more secure than facial recognition when we have had for a while, and with only a 2d camera image for the phone to work with it would not be hard to trick either. I would consider this a low security convenience lock. It will keep your small child out of your phone and you don't need to type in a code or password to get in.

As for worrying about taking the fifth on something, there are far easier ways to get things like recent calls you have made and when, Email passes through servers, etc. A search warrant presented to the carrier would yield your phone records.
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