Go Back   Android Forums > Android Phones > Nexus 4

Like Tree9Likes

test: Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old November 16th, 2012, 07:41 AM   #51 (permalink)
Member
Thread Author (OP)
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 418
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 160
Thanked 170 Times in 142 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean76 View Post
Wait so some people didn't even get an email saying their order was cancelled, but still had the funds refunded to them?
Not necessarily a refund. More like the hold fell off. Google said they wouldn't charge us until it shipped, and seeing that many of us haven't received any correspondence from google, I'm thinking if/when we get a confirmation the money will be charged again.

Advertisements
__________________
Twitter: @KeyserSoze15
Facebook: Glenn Patrick

Fortune Favors the Bold
g_patrick15 is offline  
Reply With Quote
sponsored links
Old November 16th, 2012, 08:06 AM   #52 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
sean76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NYC
Posts: 4,459
 
Device(s): one M8, nexus 5, iphone 5s
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 110
Thanked 792 Times in 537 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by g_patrick15 View Post
Not necessarily a refund. More like the hold fell off. Google said they wouldn't charge us until it shipped, and seeing that many of us haven't received any correspondence from google, I'm thinking if/when we get a confirmation the money will be charged again.
IDK man, I'm not comfortable with just being in limbo! This ranks as #1 in my book as just a terrible terrible buying experience! From A to Z, meaning from the start of trying to Order this thing on Tuesday at 12am Eastern time, right up until this very moment not knowing WTF is going on with my order? This is just totally kiddish to me and not the way a business giant the size of Google should be handling things. I'm so friggin pissed at this point that I may just end up changing my plan of how I was going to really increase my Android Eco system.

My plans were to get the N4 and give it a whirl for this very weekend, and really see how well LG and Google really did with this device, and if all was a go and everything was rolling right like call quality, build quality of the device, snappiness of everything just being buttery smooth and working well as a whole, I would then go ahead and get the Nexus 10 to use as my daily driver tablet and even make a decision on picking up the New Google Chrome lap top and just be all in with the Android/Google Eco system. Which means yes get rid of my iphone 5 and Galaxy S3 and really just go Vanilla all the way with Android.

Nope, that idea may very well be scratched because of how I see the way dealing with Google is just such a joke and a disheartening experience. I may very well just order an ipad mini, and New 13inch Mac Book pro with the retina display and go all Apple at this point....Yes I'm actually that mad!
sean76 is offline  
Last edited by sean76; November 16th, 2012 at 08:09 AM.
Reply With Quote
Old November 16th, 2012, 08:39 AM   #53 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
biohazard53188's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Folsom, CA
Posts: 58
 
Device(s): HTC Dream, HTC Magic, HTC Nexus One, HTC Incredible, Moto Bionic, Samsung Galaxy Nexus
Carrier: Solavei

Thanks: 7
Thanked 129 Times in 25 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean76 View Post
IDK man, I'm not comfortable with just being in limbo! This ranks as #1 in my book as just a terrible terrible buying experience! From A to Z, meaning from the start of trying to Order this thing on Tuesday at 12am Eastern time, right up until this very moment not knowing WTF is going on with my order? This is just totally kiddish to me and not the way a business giant the size of Google should be handling things. I'm so friggin pissed at this point that I may just end up changing my plan of how I was going to really increase my Android Eco system.

My plans were to get the N4 and give it a whirl for this very weekend, and really see how well LG and Google really did with this device, and if all was a go and everything was rolling right like call quality, build quality of the device, snappiness of everything just being buttery smooth and working well as a whole, I would then go ahead and get the Nexus 10 to use as my daily driver tablet and even make a decision on picking up the New Google Chrome lap top and just be all in with the Android/Google Eco system. Which means yes get rid of my iphone 5 and Galaxy S3 and really just go Vanilla all the way with Android.

Nope, that idea may very well be scratched because of how I see the way dealing with Google is just such a joke and a disheartening experience. I may very well just order an ipad mini, and New 13inch Mac Book pro with the retina display and go all Apple at this point....Yes I'm actually that mad!
Lol, ipad mini........
__________________
Never say die Android!!!
biohazard53188 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old November 16th, 2012, 08:45 AM   #54 (permalink)
Member
Thread Author (OP)
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 418
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 160
Thanked 170 Times in 142 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean76 View Post
IDK man, I'm not comfortable with just being in limbo! This ranks as #1 in my book as just a terrible terrible buying experience! From A to Z, meaning from the start of trying to Order this thing on Tuesday at 12am Eastern time, right up until this very moment not knowing WTF is going on with my order? This is just totally kiddish to me and not the way a business giant the size of Google should be handling things. I'm so friggin pissed at this point that I may just end up changing my plan of how I was going to really increase my Android Eco system.

My plans were to get the N4 and give it a whirl for this very weekend, and really see how well LG and Google really did with this device, and if all was a go and everything was rolling right like call quality, build quality of the device, snappiness of everything just being buttery smooth and working well as a whole, I would then go ahead and get the Nexus 10 to use as my daily driver tablet and even make a decision on picking up the New Google Chrome lap top and just be all in with the Android/Google Eco system. Which means yes get rid of my iphone 5 and Galaxy S3 and really just go Vanilla all the way with Android.

Nope, that idea may very well be scratched because of how I see the way dealing with Google is just such a joke and a disheartening experience. I may very well just order an ipad mini, and New 13inch Mac Book pro with the retina display and go all Apple at this point....Yes I'm actually that mad!
As someone that uses a 3rd gen iPad and a 13" MBP as his daily drivers, I'd tell you that that's probably a good idea to begin with. I use what's best for me, I couldn't care less about this feud between Google and Apple.

With that being said, the only phone for me is an Android phone, so I won't jump the gun yet with regards to my Nexus 4 order. I don't like being in limbo regarding my order any more than you do. I'm pissed too because I don't know what's going on. But the hold falling off my account is the least of my concerns. Over the past 7 years I've worked at 3 different banks (Washington Mutual, Chase, and now BB&T), and I have seen this situation happen far too often. The authorization hold falls off because they haven't informed the recipient that the item shipped. Doesn't necessarily mean they cancelled the order, although it's certainly a possibility.
g_patrick15 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old November 16th, 2012, 08:46 AM   #55 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
sean76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NYC
Posts: 4,459
 
Device(s): one M8, nexus 5, iphone 5s
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 110
Thanked 792 Times in 537 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by biohazard53188 View Post
Lol, ipad mini........
Yes sir, an ipad mini! Build quality is top notch, it's extremely portable, and I can sync all that I do with my iphone. And if there's an issue I just waltz into one of the 20 Apple stores that are near me and speak to someone. Pretty simple, I like simple!
sean76 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old November 16th, 2012, 08:56 AM   #56 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
biohazard53188's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Folsom, CA
Posts: 58
 
Device(s): HTC Dream, HTC Magic, HTC Nexus One, HTC Incredible, Moto Bionic, Samsung Galaxy Nexus
Carrier: Solavei

Thanks: 7
Thanked 129 Times in 25 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean76 View Post
Yes sir, an ipad mini! Build quality is top notch, it's extremely portable, and I can sync all that I do with my iphone. And if there's an issue I just waltz into one of the 20 Apple stores that are near me and speak to someone. Pretty simple, I like simple!
Gotta hand it to Apple, they have the whole sales and marketing thing together very well. Their products are all very solid and polished as well.
biohazard53188 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old November 16th, 2012, 09:02 AM   #57 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
sean76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NYC
Posts: 4,459
 
Device(s): one M8, nexus 5, iphone 5s
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 110
Thanked 792 Times in 537 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by biohazard53188 View Post
Gotta hand it to Apple, they have the whole sales and marketing thing together very well. Their products are all very solid and polished as well.
As a whole I really enjoy Android, I love the openness, I love the Vanilla Ui of the Nexus Brand, but I don't love the part of dealing with Google! This goes back to the Nexus One days, they're very lax and unprofessional when it comes to the actual buying experience. And Google's short coming is Apples strength, I mean you really can't top walking into an Apple store and just being wowed on how great the buying experience is when dealing with them.

Ughhhh, so pissed right now! Oh well, just gonna sit tight until Tuesday and see what happens.
sean76 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old November 16th, 2012, 09:07 AM   #58 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
biohazard53188's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Folsom, CA
Posts: 58
 
Device(s): HTC Dream, HTC Magic, HTC Nexus One, HTC Incredible, Moto Bionic, Samsung Galaxy Nexus
Carrier: Solavei

Thanks: 7
Thanked 129 Times in 25 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sean76 View Post
As a whole I really enjoy Android, I love the openness, I love the Vanilla Ui of the Nexus Brand, but I don't love the part of dealing with Google! This goes back to the Nexus One days, they're very lax and unprofessional when it comes to the actual buying experience. And Google's short coming is Apples strength, I mean you really can't top walking into an Apple store and just being wowed on how great the buying experience is when dealing with them.

Ughhhh, so pissed right now! Oh well, just gonna sit tight until Tuesday and see what happens.
Im in the same boat as you. N4 Limbo. Google is great at innovating and investing, that's about all.
biohazard53188 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old November 16th, 2012, 09:12 AM   #59 (permalink)
Member
Thread Author (OP)
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 418
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 160
Thanked 170 Times in 142 Posts
Default

Just got off the phone (again). This rep directly referenced my order number instead of just my email address. She says that my order is complete (despite what Google Wallet says) and that, because of that, I should get my tracking info today. She seemed to be a bit more knowledgeable than the other reps I spoke too, even if she proves to be wrong. But she says the order is done and in it's second stage, which is shipping. Hopefully she's right, but she says that it would tell her if it was cancelled or backordered, and apparently mines isn't.
g_patrick15 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old November 16th, 2012, 09:37 AM   #60 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: The OC
Posts: 372
 
Device(s): Nexus 4
Carrier: T-Mo

Thanks: 32
Thanked 24 Times in 23 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by espylacopa View Post
Carlsbad, CA.
Well I'm 45 min. north of you in OC and I ordered mine at 8:36. Still haven't heard a word. Hopefully it will just show up today.
Bob Loblaw1 is offline  
Reply With Quote
sponsored links
Old November 16th, 2012, 12:17 PM   #61 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Texas
Gender: Male
Posts: 126
 
Device(s): Nexus 4, Kindle Fire, Asus Transformer T100(Win8)
Carrier: StraightTalk

Thanks: 2
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Default

I called Google and they told me the reason was that some banks only allow holds for a certain amount of time. They will take the money out when it ships and they update the system. So that means mine hasent shipped yet.
Gareatron is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old November 16th, 2012, 12:45 PM   #62 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: West Virginia
Gender: Male
Posts: 29
 
Device(s): Nexus 4
Carrier: Straight Talk (AT&T)

Thanks: 2
Thanked 10 Times in 7 Posts
Default

Called, told me phones in 3rd day of processing, will get tracking order today.

How a company can make a detailed map of the god damn earth but can't handle online payments is beyond me.
sexymandroid is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old November 16th, 2012, 01:03 PM   #63 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
sean76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: NYC
Posts: 4,459
 
Device(s): one M8, nexus 5, iphone 5s
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 110
Thanked 792 Times in 537 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sexymandroid View Post
Called, told me phones in 3rd day of processing, will get tracking order today.

How a company can make a detailed map of the god damn earth but can't handle online payments is beyond me.
Holy Crap,,,, Great Analogy! It's amazing...
sean76 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2012, 03:03 PM   #64 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Gender: Male
Posts: 41
 
Device(s): Samsung Galaxy Prevail, HTC EVO Design 4G, Kindle Fire
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 14
Thanked 7 Times in 4 Posts
Default

UPS LOST MY PACKAGE THE DAY IT WAS SET TO BE DELIVERED (16TH)!!!!!

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU UPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now I'm in uberlimbo.... Hope they find it since they put out a tracer on it. But I won't hold my breath. =/
espylacopa is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2012, 03:42 PM   #65 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
kcs7272's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: (Pittsburgh sort of)Jeannette ( West Newton as of the 10th) PA
Posts: 962
 
Device(s): AT&T Samsung Galaxy Note Cobalt Blue
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 1,643
Thanked 826 Times in 423 Posts
Default

I GOT MINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Faints
__________________
Who am I, You really don't want to know.
kcs7272 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old November 20th, 2012, 09:04 PM   #66 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,237
 
Device(s): Galaxy Nexus (GSM) Nexus S (I9020T on 4.0.4)
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 0
Thanked 202 Times in 152 Posts
Default

I was in limbo with my order as well, despite getting my order in just 3 minutes after it went live (somehow I magically woke up at exactly the right time).

I got my order confirmation shortly after putting in the order. Then nothing.

I called Google on Sunday (the number can be found in your Google Play order history). It took over 45 minutes on hold just to have a guy tell me there's a "sort of back order going on" and that it would ship in "a week or so."

I asked if I would be refunded the the shipping charge, and the guy said he'd check and put me on hold. While on hold, the call was dropped (the guy had said they were having a lot of technical difficulties that day).

To my surprise, on Monday, I got an e-mail that my order had shipped. When the UPS tracking info was updated, I noticed that they had upgraded me to Next Day Air. I got my Nexus 4 this morning (Tuesday).

For those still in limbo, I recommend giving Google a call (or at least sending them and e-mail). Make sure you have plenty of time to wait on hold, though.
__________________
Like what I had to say in this post? Check out more of my tech reviews and articles on Twitter: @QuantumRand
quantumrand is offline  
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to quantumrand For This Useful Post:
lunatic59 (November 21st, 2012)
Old November 21st, 2012, 09:13 AM   #67 (permalink)
Moderati ergo sum
 
lunatic59's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,826
 
Device(s): Galaxy Note 10.1 (2014), Nexus 4, Galaxy S II, Captivate, Nexus 1, Nook Color, Asus Transformer T-1
Carrier: AT&T

Thanks: 8,332
Thanked 13,234 Times in 7,235 Posts
Default

I had a similar experience. I successfully placed my order 15 minutes into the launch and got my confirmation email, then nothing. I called on Saturday, waited on hold for 25 minutes and was told I would receive my tracking email on Monday. He asked it it was okay to put me on hold while he checked something and instead hung up on me. I called again Monday evening after not getting the promised email and was told again that they were doing their best. 20 minutes later I got an email saying that the order would be delivered the next day and around 2 a.m. the tracking email arrived.

I got my phone Tuesday morning.

During the second call, the rep asked if I would take a brief survey about my Play Store experience. I said "no thank you. You probably don't want to hear what I have to say anyway."

I made him laugh.
__________________
_
If the information is useful, Like the post, if the person was helpful, Thank the member.
RULES: Lest we forget | This part of signature intentionally left blank.
_________________________________________________

No Ivory-Billed Woodpeckers were harmed in the composition of this message.
lunatic59 is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2012, 09:13 AM   #68 (permalink)
Moderati ergo sum
 
lunatic59's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,826
 
Device(s): Galaxy Note 10.1 (2014), Nexus 4, Galaxy S II, Captivate, Nexus 1, Nook Color, Asus Transformer T-1
Carrier: AT&T

Thanks: 8,332
Thanked 13,234 Times in 7,235 Posts
Default

I had a similar experience. I successfully placed my order 15 minutes into the launch and got my confirmation email, then nothing. I called on Saturday, waited on hold for 25 minutes and was told I would receive my tracking email on Monday. He asked it it was okay to put me on hold while he checked something and instead hung up on me. I called again Monday evening after not getting the promised email and was told again that they were doing their best. @0 minutes later I got an email saying that the order would be delivered the next day and around 2 a.m. the tracking email arrived.

I got my phone Tuesday morning.

During the second call, the rep asked if I would take a breif survey about my Play Store expereince. I said "no thank you. You probably don't want to hear what I have to say anyway."

I made him laugh.
Trooper and spriteboost like this.
lunatic59 is online now  
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to lunatic59 For This Useful Post:
Trooper (November 21st, 2012)
Old November 21st, 2012, 08:25 PM   #69 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Trooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 3,711
 
Device(s): Moto X
Carrier: Verizon

Thanks: 1,742
Thanked 675 Times in 462 Posts
Default

So how is the new phone bud?
Trooper is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2012, 08:40 PM   #70 (permalink)
Moderati ergo sum
 
lunatic59's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,826
 
Device(s): Galaxy Note 10.1 (2014), Nexus 4, Galaxy S II, Captivate, Nexus 1, Nook Color, Asus Transformer T-1
Carrier: AT&T

Thanks: 8,332
Thanked 13,234 Times in 7,235 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trooper View Post
So how is the new phone bud?
Oh geez, I wish I knew. We are implementing RF inventory management in our warehouses and between troubleshooting the scanners and helping train the personal and interfacing with the ERP solutions team, I haven't had 3 spare seconds to rub together. On top of which, we had to let our newly hired IT support person go because they ... um ... were a little optimistic about their abilities.

So far I've got to open the box and turn it on for a few minutes.

Oh yes, i need to stop by the AT&T store to get a micro sim before I swap it over. And, I refuse to hit the crazy shopping scene this weekend so its just going to have to wait a bit.

BTW, Anybody need a job? I need a new assistant pronto!
lunatic59 is online now  
Reply With Quote
sponsored links
Old November 21st, 2012, 11:20 PM   #71 (permalink)
That guy is This
 
Thats's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Fargo, ND
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,168
 
Device(s): Moto X, Nexus 7
Carrier: AT&T

Thanks: 618
Thanked 407 Times in 225 Posts
Default

Google overnighted mine to me. I was in Nexus 4 Limbo for quite a while, then all of a sudden I wake up to it on my doorstep!!
__________________
Moto X || Nexus 7"
|Stock Android ROM|
Thats is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2012, 03:18 AM   #72 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 199
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 3
Thanked 27 Times in 18 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thats View Post
Google overnighted mine to me. I was in Nexus 4 Limbo for quite a while, then all of a sudden I wake up to it on my doorstep!!
Had the same thing happen to me. The package first showed up on UPS at around 2AM apparently and got delivered at 9:40.

Unfortunately, I am in Houston til Friday so I won't be able to play with it til I get back.
strausd is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2012, 08:26 PM   #73 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Trooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 3,711
 
Device(s): Moto X
Carrier: Verizon

Thanks: 1,742
Thanked 675 Times in 462 Posts
Default

Sorry to hear this man. Know how you feel.

What kinda IT guy do you need?
Trooper is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2012, 09:46 PM   #74 (permalink)
Moderati ergo sum
 
lunatic59's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,826
 
Device(s): Galaxy Note 10.1 (2014), Nexus 4, Galaxy S II, Captivate, Nexus 1, Nook Color, Asus Transformer T-1
Carrier: AT&T

Thanks: 8,332
Thanked 13,234 Times in 7,235 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trooper View Post
Sorry to hear this man. Know how you feel.

What kinda IT guy do you need?
All around IT generalist. Hardware, software, server, PBX, networking ... if you are serious, I can give you details, but it would take a long time to type them out.
lunatic59 is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old November 22nd, 2012, 10:11 PM   #75 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Trooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 3,711
 
Device(s): Moto X
Carrier: Verizon

Thanks: 1,742
Thanked 675 Times in 462 Posts
Default

All depends where you live man.
Trooper is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2012, 07:58 AM   #76 (permalink)
Moderati ergo sum
 
lunatic59's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,826
 
Device(s): Galaxy Note 10.1 (2014), Nexus 4, Galaxy S II, Captivate, Nexus 1, Nook Color, Asus Transformer T-1
Carrier: AT&T

Thanks: 8,332
Thanked 13,234 Times in 7,235 Posts
Default

Greater Philadelphia region (about 25 miles west of the city)
Trooper likes this.
lunatic59 is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old November 23rd, 2012, 09:49 AM   #77 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Trooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 3,711
 
Device(s): Moto X
Carrier: Verizon

Thanks: 1,742
Thanked 675 Times in 462 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lunatic59 View Post
Greater Philadelphia region (about 25 miles west of the city)
Send me a PM please!
Trooper is offline  
Reply With Quote
Reply

Nexus 4
Current Rating:
Rate this Phone:

The Nexus 4 brings comes after months and months of rumors. This is Google's first time partnering with LG to make a Nexus device. The Pure Google smartphone features the latest and greatest Android 4.2 software version, along with stunning spe... Read More



Go Back   Android Forums > Android Phones > Nexus 4
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:27 AM.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.