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Old November 24th, 2010, 11:19 AM   #101 (permalink)
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I've got more important things to worry about than a few millirems of radiation at an airport. Not to mention, such a low amount that wouldn't even cause me much harm unless I was constantly passing through. I travel via plane once maybe twice a year. It really doesn't affect me. I'll let the people who are screaming bloody murder about this issue handle it.
Good grief, this isn't so much about radiation as it is a violation of our Constitutional rights. You really can't be this obtuse, can you?

And the way you have treated a veteran on this MB really disgusts me.

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Old November 24th, 2010, 11:21 AM   #102 (permalink)
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Please calm down everybody, and show some respect for other members. This thread is straying dangerously close to closure for its (and its contributors') own good.
Might as well close it Slug. What started out as a quality debate turned out to be a troll fest b/c a few people don't share the same sentiment.
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Old November 24th, 2010, 11:21 AM   #103 (permalink)
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I've got more important things to worry about than a few millirems of radiation at an airport. Not to mention, such a low amount that wouldn't even cause me much harm unless I was constantly passing through. I travel via plane once maybe twice a year. It really doesn't affect me. I'll let the people who are screaming bloody murder about this issue handle it.
Whoa whoa buddy, I could care less about the radiation. It's the violation of our civil rights and the general lack of backbone in our county that's got me so pissed.


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Might as well close it Slug. What started out as a quality debate turned out to be a troll fest b/c a few people don't share the same sentiment.
Do you run from all of your problems?


And Slug, yeah this is getting heated, but it's a hot button issue =/
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Old November 24th, 2010, 11:25 AM   #104 (permalink)
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Whoa whoa buddy, I could care less about the radiation. It's the violation of our civil rights and the general lack of backbone in our county that's got me so pissed.




Do you run from all of your problems?


And Slug, yeah this is getting heated, but it's a hot button issue =/
I wouldn't see this as a problem (at least it's not my problem). Just a conversation that I no longer desire to be a part of. I respect your opinion and I have no intention to argue with you or anyone else over something I clearly don't rank high on my list of important things to do.
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Old November 24th, 2010, 11:33 AM   #105 (permalink)
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I wouldn't see this as a problem (at least it's not my problem). Just a conversation that I no longer desire to be a part of. I respect your opinion and I have no intention to argue with you or anyone else over something I clearly don't rank high on my list of important things to do.
That IS the problem though.
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Old November 24th, 2010, 12:13 PM   #106 (permalink)
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oops.. meant GQ. sorrrrreeeeee!
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Old November 24th, 2010, 12:16 PM   #107 (permalink)
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oops.. meant GQ. sorrrrreeeeee!
Well, I confess to leaving out a much needed smiley; I knew what you meant and was attempting to get you to make something up ("Gentleman's Corsets" ?).

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Old November 24th, 2010, 12:22 PM   #108 (permalink)
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I find this whole issue to be a joke, pat downs are common place ANYWHERE security is a primary concern. sure the body scans suck but at least you were given a choice in one or the other, if you dont want the scan get patted down simple as that! If both the scan and pat down are too much for you to handle dont fly. drive, take the bus, take a train you have a ton of other options available.

On a slightly seperate note, to me it seems like the whole boycott could do more harm than good. the employees are going to be stressed and most probably half assing their duties because of all the assholes they will have to deal with. This leaves a perfect opurtunity for some one to get something onto a plane that shouldnt be.
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Old November 24th, 2010, 12:30 PM   #109 (permalink)
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Might as well close it Slug.
Let's see if we can salvage it. It's sure to become a worldwide concern if the practice gains a foothold in the US.

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And Slug, yeah this is getting heated, but it's a hot button issue =/
I hear ya, and heated debate is just fine so long as it doesn't get nasty and/or personal.
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Old November 24th, 2010, 12:38 PM   #110 (permalink)
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I would rather someone violate my rights than to get blown to pieces.
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Old November 24th, 2010, 01:44 PM   #111 (permalink)
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I find this whole issue to be a joke, pat downs are common place ANYWHERE security is a primary concern. sure the body scans suck but at least you were given a choice in one or the other, if you dont want the scan get patted down simple as that! If both the scan and pat down are too much for you to handle dont fly. drive, take the bus, take a train you have a ton of other options available.

On a slightly seperate note, to me it seems like the whole boycott could do more harm than good. the employees are going to be stressed and most probably half assing their duties because of all the assholes they will have to deal with. This leaves a perfect opurtunity for some one to get something onto a plane that shouldnt be.
It's the type of pat down that's objectionable. The pat down is way more invasive than you'd get from a cop if you got picked up by a DUI. A cop is not going to stick his hands down your pants or feel your junk unless he has reason to believe you're concealing something there. The TSA operates under the assumption that yes, you are a terrorist and yes, you are hiding something and yes, you must prove that you are not hiding anything.
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Old November 24th, 2010, 01:48 PM   #112 (permalink)
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I would rather someone violate my rights than to get blown to pieces.
How many planes have blown up in the US from a terrorist attack? Ever?

How many people have died traveling by air ever?

More people die traveling by car in one single year, than have died by traveling by plane in the entire history of air travel. Period.

If you would give up your freedoms to prevent such a minor chance of dying by flying... what wouldn't you give up to prevent the very real chance of dying in a car?

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I've got more important things to worry about than a few millirems of radiation at an airport.
Let me break this down for you...

Your position is, people having their rights violated isn't worth your time, or it's justifiable to violate people's rights in this situation.

If you allow the violation of your rights for ANY REASON, then you no longer have them. All it takes for them to violate your rights, is for them to "justify" it. If you allow them to violate the rights of American citizens, then no American Citizen has that right anymore. Period.

You can't say we HAVE those rights unless there is justification for us not to. You HAVE that right, or you don't.

In your opinion, having that right isn't worth your time. It isn't worth complaining about. It isn't worth defending. Who cares if they take your rights away.


Let me explain something to you about rights. They didn't just happen. They weren't always guaranteed. They were fought for. Millions of lives were given freely so that you could have those rights. Once you give them up. Once they are gone. They will never EVER come back, without the loss of millions of lives.

Do you know what the word infringe means? It means to chip away at. To eat away a little at a time. Our rights shall not be infringed. The founding fathers weren't worried about them being taken away in one fell swoop. They worried about them being chipped away at, until they were rights in name only, and worthless to the citizens of this nation.
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Old November 24th, 2010, 01:51 PM   #113 (permalink)
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I would rather someone violate my rights than to get blown to pieces.
They can justify violating every last one of your rights in the name of preventing you from being blown to pieces.

They can protect you best if you only go where they tell you to.

They can protect you best, if you only talk to the people they tell you that you can.

They can protect you best, if you only eat the foods they approve.

They can protect you best, if we shut down newspapers that leak out information that the terrorists could use.

They can protect you best, if no one has firearms besides the government.

If you would rather someone violate your rights than you come to harm... then you already have no rights.
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Old November 24th, 2010, 01:55 PM   #114 (permalink)
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How many planes have blown up in the US from a terrorist attack? Ever?

How many people have died traveling by air ever?

More people die traveling by car in one single year, than have died by traveling by plane in the entire history of air travel. Period.

If you would give up your freedoms to prevent such a minor chance of dying by flying... what wouldn't you give up to prevent the very real chance of dying in a car?

.
I like my life and would like to keep living it. So violate away. Not because it hasn't happen mean it wouldn't. They (not a racist comment) could be plotting right now.
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Old November 24th, 2010, 01:57 PM   #115 (permalink)
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I say they just make the scanners mandatory and install them everywhere. If you don't want to be scanned, then take the train or drive. That said, TSA employees need to understand that they are service employees and that flying passengers are their customers. they need to treat the flying public in a respectful and informative manner. That is a point which seems to have been lost with a great many TSA employees and managers in airports all across this country. As I see it, if someone needs to be patted down for any reason, they should be made aware of the exact procedure, how it is going to be conducted, what their rights are and are not, and what options they have. Then it is the official doing the pat down's job to be informative while he is performing the pat down. If you need to touch someone in a sensitive place, then tell them "I apologize for the inconvenience, but I have to touch your privates now".

Also there should be well defined guidelines. this random searching simply leaves too much to the interpretation of people with dubious training at best. for example my wife recently observed that on a recent flight out of the mid west where the majority of the people in line where white, those who got pulled out of line for a manual pat down, with no explanation of why this was so, were a man who was obviously foreign, a hot chick, herself (she's a good looking asian woman) and a shirtless toddler/preschooler. Now explain to me exactly how that was determined?

also the operator stations for scanners should be placed out of sight of the walking public. As they currently are, in too many airports a casual glance from a passer by will give you a shot of what the operator is looking at on his screen and who it might be. Whether the operator gets off on watching blurry black and white images of naked people all day long, the way I see it, it's a lot like working at a strip club. It might be exciting at first, but after a while you've seen all there is to see and no longer care.

I think the real issue is that people feel that the government is over reaching and is not being forthcoming with information regarding the basis for the TSA's actions. Treat people with respect, keep them informed and be consistent in the application of your rules, and I think that you'll find a lot less resistance from the flying public.
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Old November 24th, 2010, 02:06 PM   #116 (permalink)
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It's the type of pat down that's objectionable. The pat down is way more invasive than you'd get from a cop if you got picked up by a DUI. A cop is not going to stick his hands down your pants or feel your junk unless he has reason to believe you're concealing something there. The TSA operates under the assumption that yes, you are a terrorist and yes, you are hiding something and yes, you must prove that you are not hiding anything.

that to me is a good thing when it comes to something as severe as national security id rather them operate under the assumption that everyone is guilty rather than everyone is not guilty.
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Old November 24th, 2010, 02:26 PM   #117 (permalink)
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that to me is a good thing when it comes to something as severe as national security id rather them operate under the assumption that everyone is guilty rather than everyone is not guilty.
You do realize that we generally operate under the assumption that people are innocent until proven guilty. This is a legal concept that goes all the way back to Roman and Greek times and some have traced back as far as the book of Deuteronomy. Suffice it to say, it's a very, very long standing assumption.

Let's say a bank gets robbed. I happen to be driving down the street when the cops arrive. Witnesses tell the cops that the bad guys were driving a black 4dr sedan. I'm driving a red mini van. The cops can't just pull me over, assume that I robbed the bank and take me to jail. They have to have probable cause just to pull me over in the first place. Now, if I'm driving a black 4dr sedan, they've got probable cause right there. If they pull me over and I don't match any description of the robbers, they don't find anything in my car that indicates that I'm involved in the robbery at all, they can't take me to jail and assume I'm guilty. I don't have to prove I'm innocent. Law enforcement must prove that there is probable cause to assume I'm guilty before they can even arrest me (i.e. driving a car that matches the description, physically meets the description, piles of hundred dollar bills in the passenger's seat, ski mask in the back seat, etc....) The presumption of innocence is a huge, huge thing.
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Old November 24th, 2010, 02:43 PM   #118 (permalink)
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How about this one?

The 4th Amendment to the US Constitution

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Did that clear things up for you?
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2 reasons:

1 - Metal detectors don't produce an image of a naked body
2 - No one is groping you while you are walking through a metal detector

And I also agree with you on your 1st point, these scanners will not make any of us any safer.
No, it didn't. It's not violating your rights, because you're choosing to fly. If you don't fly, you don't have to worry about following their rules. It would be a different story if you were walking down the street, and someone pulled up to search you for no reason, but that's not the case at all. It's really not all that difficult.

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This attitude really disgusts me. It actually makes me angry that I protected your rights. It makes me angry that people I know and cared about are dead protecting YOUR rights.
You protected my right to my own opinion, and now that I don't agree with you, you wish you hadn't protected them. Typical & Hypocritical.

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Old November 24th, 2010, 02:43 PM   #119 (permalink)
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...id rather them operate under the assumption that everyone is guilty rather than everyone is not guilty.
Trust me, you don't want your country run under that assumption.





"I don't want my country run under that assumption."

You can go about your business.
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Old November 24th, 2010, 02:48 PM   #120 (permalink)
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I understand that we operate under an innocent until proven guilty philosophy. But as I said "I FEEL" meaning my opinion, that in a situation where national security has been shown to be at risk, everyone should be treated guilty until proved otherwise, and to prove otherwise all you need to do is go through the body scanner or get a pat down. if you refuse then its a red flag that you are hiding something. theres your probable cause.


im not saying in all situations to follow this philosophy. just those involving national security. (flights etc...)
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Old November 24th, 2010, 02:52 PM   #121 (permalink)
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Well, I confess to leaving out a much needed smiley; I knew what you meant and was attempting to get you to make something up ("Gentleman's Corsets" ?).


hahahahaha! I laughted out loud, for realz!

Wait a minute. Gentlemen's CORSETS?
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Old November 24th, 2010, 03:19 PM   #122 (permalink)
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Remember to keep the debate clean and NO attacking members Going to put my $0.02

Well Canada hasn't gone down this road (yet) but this is something that other countries are debating now.

What I feel is that with the implementation of the full bodyscanner in airports, the mentality will be: why not have it in subways, since those have higher chance of getting bomb. Well to protect citizens and public interest and security, then why not have these everywhere, right? Like schools...I mean there are schools with metal detectors. Actually having body scanners at school makes sense...easier to catch kids with the drugs...
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Old November 24th, 2010, 03:33 PM   #123 (permalink)
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I have been just as pissed off about the new scanners as everyone else and I get the pleasure of traveling tomorrow. I don't think the scanners have arrived at my airport yet. If they are there tomorrow, I plan on boycotting them. It's just too invasive for me and protects against practically nothing IMO. The national boycott of the scanners is tomorrow. Anyone else traveling and plan on participating?
I do not plan to fly tomorrow, so to answer the thread, No. That said, what about December 3, October 4, September 14, or August 23? Seems to me a one day boycott will not work because this problem is here to stay, unless someone changes their mind and makes the changes to the TSA rules.

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Old November 24th, 2010, 05:14 PM   #124 (permalink)
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Well Canada hasn't gone down this road (yet) but this is something that other countries are debating now.
I believe it will happen in Canada. The security of Canada and US are closely tied and it is likely that the US has enough influence over Canada to have us introduce these scanners.

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What I feel is that with the implementation of the full bodyscanner in airports, the mentality will be: why not have it in subways, since those have higher chance of getting bomb. Well to protect citizens and public interest and security, then why not have these everywhere, right? Like schools...I mean there are schools with metal detectors. Actually having body scanners at school makes sense...easier to catch kids with the drugs...
I don't think that scanners in schools are going to prevent kids from taking drugs. They'll find a way to do drugs elsewhere. All you did was move the problem instead of solving it.

If you want to kill and injure a large number of people, there are a variety of places where you can do so. It's not just the subway. Anywhere in the city where a large number of people congregate can be a target. Are we going to monitor and screen every single store, park, beach, bridge, etc.? You cannot put scanners everywhere. There will be places where people can congregate without being screaned. Even a line-up for a scanner may have a lot of people. How close to do things have to be to the world in "1984" before you feel safe and are you willing to give up that much of your freedom?
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Old November 24th, 2010, 07:23 PM   #125 (permalink)
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If both the scan and pat down are too much for you to handle dont fly. drive, take the bus, take a train you have a ton of other options available.
“I think the tighter we get on aviation, we have to also be thinking now about going on to mass transit or to trains or maritime.” - Janet Napolitano

now what?

cant take the train or the bus... those are next for scanners and gropedowns

after that will be sports stadiums...... before long school busses

the entire airport thing has been blown way out of proportion by a single isolated tragedy..... the rest of the minor incidents were IMO just done to continue to increase the hysteria...... they have won....... its just like when your parents spank you really hard........ after that they no longer have to spank you...... they just have to count out loud

the terrorists dont have to blow up another thing... all they have to do is try to sneak a pair of nail clippers on an airplane twice a year and we go apeshit with our reaction

if they really wanted to attempt another huge attack of some type you could nearly be 100% assured it wouldnt be on a plane.... subways are a far better target for this sort of thing....... how do you think full body scanners and gropedowns would work at every (which is far more crowded than an airport) subway station in new york?
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Old November 24th, 2010, 11:55 PM   #126 (permalink)
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No, it didn't. It's not violating your rights, because you're choosing to fly. If you don't fly, you don't have to worry about following their rules. It would be a different story if you were walking down the street, and someone pulled up to search you for no reason, but that's not the case at all. It's really not all that difficult.
So because I choose to do something, that automatically means the TSA can just ignore the Constitution? Do you realize how absurd your argument is? And let's use your example of walking down the street. What's to then prevent you from being stopped and searched all in the name of security?

We are losing our Rights piece by piece and we are idly sitting back and letting them do it to us. We are no longer a free country and Americans have taken their Liberty for granted. We are told what we can buy, what we can eat, what we can grow, what doctors we will be able to see, etc.

I feel sorrow and anger when it comes to people like you Irv. Our government is becoming more tyrannical and you just excuse it as, "Well, you chose to fly. You have no rights. We must be safe at all costs." Pathetic, truly pathetic.
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Old November 25th, 2010, 12:23 AM   #127 (permalink)
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So it appears Congress can't even watch someone during the sexual assaul... "enhanced patdown"

TSA uproar moves to Capitol Hill - Laura Rozen - POLITICO.com

This is about to get interesting.
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Old November 25th, 2010, 01:04 AM   #128 (permalink)
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So it appears Congress can't even watch someone during the sexual assaul... "enhanced patdown"

TSA uproar moves to Capitol Hill - Laura Rozen - POLITICO.com

This is about to get interesting.
Hope you don't mind, but I'm going to quote directly from the Politico article you mention for those who won't read it.

“The dumbest part: they did two pat-down demonstrations – male on male, and female on female,” the House staffer said. And they used a young female TSA volunteer “and in front of a room of 200 people, they touched her breasts and her buttocks. People were averting their eyes. The TSA was trying to demonstrate ‘this is not so bad,’ but it made people so uncomfortable to watch, that people were averting their eyes.”

“They shot themselves in the foot,” the staffer continued.




Read more: TSA uproar moves to Capitol Hill - Laura Rozen - POLITICO.com

And Irv, you claimed that every poll you had looked at said a majority of Americans were ok with the TSA and it's procedures. How's this poll affect your thinking now?

Poll finds 61% oppose new airport security measures | Money & Company | Los Angeles Times
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Old November 25th, 2010, 01:12 AM   #129 (permalink)
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I'm waiting for rf chips that register what checkpoints you have passed embedded in your skin.
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Old November 25th, 2010, 04:44 AM   #130 (permalink)
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Something to think about. How would you protect against someone setting off an explosive while waiting in a security line with hundreds of people in the immediate vicinity? Isn't that as much of a threat as what happens on the other side of the TSA checkpoint?
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Old November 25th, 2010, 04:54 AM   #131 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by nyydynasty View Post
seriously. walk thru the damn scanners and lets move on with our lives please.
its painful enough to go thru security in airports. lets not make it worse.
I just came across a reader's comment on an ABC story. According to you everything is cut and dry right?

"I just completed my cancer treatment in July. I had a bilateral mastectomy and have two prosthetics.
A wonderful friend paid for a trip for me to visit her for Christmas and I am dreading going because of
all of this. It's a shame that I can't just to look forward to enjoying the holidays instead of feeling
anxious over the possibility of being humiliated at the airport."


TSA Airport Security Medical Humiliations For Travelers with Prosthetic Devices During Pat-Downs and Body Scans - ABC News

Is this how we are to treat people just because we want to fly from point A to point B?
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Old November 25th, 2010, 10:20 AM   #132 (permalink)
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So because I choose to do something, that automatically means the TSA can just ignore the Constitution? Do you realize how absurd your argument is? And let's use your example of walking down the street. What's to then prevent you from being stopped and searched all in the name of security?

We are losing our Rights piece by piece and we are idly sitting back and letting them do it to us. We are no longer a free country and Americans have taken their Liberty for granted. We are told what we can buy, what we can eat, what we can grow, what doctors we will be able to see, etc.

I feel sorrow and anger when it comes to people like you Irv. Our government is becoming more tyrannical and you just excuse it as, "Well, you chose to fly. You have no rights. We must be safe at all costs." Pathetic, truly pathetic.
Did you miss when I said they're not violating the Constitution? You don't have to fly. Violating the Constitution would be not giving you another choice, but there is another choice; don't fly.
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Old November 25th, 2010, 10:35 AM   #133 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by lrv View Post
Did you miss when I said they're not violating the Constitution? You don't have to fly. Violating the Constitution would be not giving you another choice, but there is another choice; don't fly.
I'm guessing you failed the constitution test? Re-read the 4th amendment.

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Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Doesn't matter what you choose to do or not do, we have a RIGHT against UNREASONABLE SEARCHES AND SEIZURES.
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Old November 25th, 2010, 10:45 AM   #134 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by IOWA View Post
I'm guessing you failed the constitution test? Re-read the 4th amendment.



Doesn't matter what you choose to do or not do, we have a RIGHT against UNREASONABLE SEARCHES AND SEIZURES.
If I invite you to my house, I have the right to search you before entering. If you don't comply, I can tell you to leave.
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Old November 25th, 2010, 10:51 AM   #135 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by lrv View Post
If I invite you to my house, I have the right to search you before entering. If you don't comply, I can tell you to leave.
Your not a government agency.

/end thread.
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Old November 25th, 2010, 10:52 AM   #136 (permalink)
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I'm guessing you failed the constitution test? Re-read the 4th amendment.



Doesn't matter what you choose to do or not do, we have a RIGHT against UNREASONABLE SEARCHES AND SEIZURES.
Looks like Chief Justice IOWA has unilaterally decreed that an airport security scan is an unreasonable search.

I must conclude that the TSA views the situation a little differently. Good thing we have remedies for such things in this country ... it's called the Supreme Court. Until it's challenged and there is a ruling, you can be as pompous and sanctimonious as you like (ain't freedom wonderful?) but you have to accept the possibility that you are wrong.
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Old November 25th, 2010, 11:01 AM   #137 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by lrv View Post
Did you miss when I said they're not violating the Constitution? You don't have to fly. Violating the Constitution would be not giving you another choice, but there is another choice; don't fly.
My question is, what if you are left with no other choice? If the government sees this work, what will stop them from having the body scanner and full body search in the subway, bus stations, train stations, docks or border crossing (car). Any places with high concentration of people can be a potential terrorist attack hot spot.

I think what the other side of the argument is saying is that we're slowly erroding our rights/freedom in the name of national security.
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Old November 25th, 2010, 12:25 PM   #138 (permalink)
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I think what the other side of the argument is saying is that we're slowly erroding our rights/freedom in the name of national security.
More like for the illusion if increased security and saving lives.

If 100 more people die each year because another plane crashes every year, people feel less safe. If 400 more people die each year because more people choose to drive instead of fly, no one notices.
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Old November 25th, 2010, 12:38 PM   #139 (permalink)
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More like for the illusion if increased security and saving lives.

If 100 more people die each year because another plane crashes every year, people feel less safe. If 400 more people die each year because more people choose to drive instead of fly, no one notices.
Not to mention it's been proven already that the scanners don't even prevent bombs from getting on the plane anyway.
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Old November 25th, 2010, 12:39 PM   #140 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by lrv View Post
No, it didn't. It's not violating your rights, because you're choosing to fly. If you don't fly, you don't have to worry about following their rules. It would be a different story if you were walking down the street, and someone pulled up to search you for no reason, but that's not the case at all. It's really not all that difficult.
This point isn't valid. If I choose to drive down the street and a cop pulls me over and searches my car without probable cause then arrests me for no reason, it would STILL be a violation of my rights even though I CHOSE to drive.
If I go to a political speech and tell the candidate I don't approve of his/her actions and get arrested for it, that's STILL a violation of rights even though I CHOSE to speak.

And you can't say it's different because we know we're going to be searched, as you mention above. That doesn't make it right. That would be like the governemt saying anyone who says "obama sucks" will go to jail, then you saying it's not an infringement of freedom of speech rights because we're choosing to say it. See how that doesn't work?

This is a violation of the Fourth Amendment. The only probable cause is prejudice, which isn't valid probable cause.
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Old November 25th, 2010, 12:40 PM   #141 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by tommy_ed View Post
This point isn't valid. If I choose to drive down the street and a cop pulls me over and searches my car without probable cause then arrests me for no reason, it would STILL be a violation of my rights even though I CHOSE to drive.
If I go to a political speech and tell the candidate I don't approve of his/her actions and get arrested for it, that's STILL a violation of rights even though I CHOSE to speak.

And you can't say it's different because we know we're going to be searched, as you mention above. That doesn't make it right. That would be like the governemt saying anyone who says "obama sucks" will go to jail, then you saying it's not an infringement of freedom of speech rights because we're choosing to say it. See how that doesn't work?

This is a violation of the Fourth Amendment. The only probable cause is prejudice, which isn't valid probable cause.
This. Any search of the body that is simply unwarranted, is a violation of our fourth amendment rights.
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Old November 25th, 2010, 12:41 PM   #142 (permalink)
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More like for the illusion if increased security and saving lives.

If 100 more people die each year because another plane crashes every year, people feel less safe. If 400 more people die each year because more people choose to drive instead of fly, no one notices.
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Originally Posted by IOWA View Post
Not to mention it's been proven already that the scanners don't even prevent bombs from getting on the plane anyway.
I wonder how much further they, the goverment, will increase security when another bombing occur because both the bodyscanner and vigorous body check does not show the plastic bomb inside the anal/virginia of the terrorist.
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Old November 25th, 2010, 12:49 PM   #143 (permalink)
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everyone should be treated guilty until proved otherwise, and to prove otherwise all you need to do is go through the body scanner or get a pat down. if you refuse then its a red flag that you are hiding something. theres your probable cause.
that's not probable cause. what if people just don't want some random guy to see their naked body? or get their genitals touched by some other random person? that would be like a cop randomly pulling you over and saying "Will you consent to a strip search?" and when you say no, he says it's probable cause that you're hiding something and searches you and your car.

What is REALLY sad is the fact that the government can do this, and know the american people won't have the balls to stand up and defend their rights anymore. It's happening more and more often, and if it KEEPS happening, it's NOT going to end well for the citizens. Even the hippies had the balls to stand up to the gvt in the 60s... HIPPIES GOD DAMMIT!!!
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Old November 25th, 2010, 12:51 PM   #144 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by lrv View Post
If I invite you to my house, I have the right to search you before entering. If you don't comply, I can tell you to leave.
Wrong Irv. If you touched me or my family the way the TSA is touching people, you would be arrested immediately.
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Old November 25th, 2010, 12:54 PM   #145 (permalink)
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I understand that we operate under an innocent until proven guilty philosophy. But as I said "I FEEL" meaning my opinion, that in a situation where national security has been shown to be at risk, everyone should be treated guilty until proved otherwise, and to prove otherwise all you need to do is go through the body scanner or get a pat down. if you refuse then its a red flag that you are hiding something. theres your probable cause.


im not saying in all situations to follow this philosophy. just those involving national security. (flights etc...)
Are you serious?

People thought the same way about tracking down witches during the witch hunt too.

Refusing to be molested doesn't mean your guilty of anything other than having dignity.
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Old November 25th, 2010, 01:43 PM   #146 (permalink)
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Looks like Chief Justice IOWA has unilaterally decreed that an airport security scan is an unreasonable search.

I must conclude that the TSA views the situation a little differently. Good thing we have remedies for such things in this country ... it's called the Supreme Court. Until it's challenged and there is a ruling, you can be as pompous and sanctimonious as you like (ain't freedom wonderful?) but you have to accept the REALITY (possibility) that you are wrong.
This is a very good summary. Thanks!

This does raise the case for improved train service i.e. "bullet" trains.
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Old November 25th, 2010, 01:49 PM   #147 (permalink)
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I wonder how much further they, the goverment, will increase security when another bombing occur because both the bodyscanner and vigorous body check does not show the plastic bomb inside the anal/vagina of the terrorist.
I think the terrorists have WON. They seem to just toss things out for which some are just red herrings just to see us REACT and tighten down on the regular people. We spend Billions to fight against their $10k plots. Our Governments treat us like scared kids and keep building a BIGGER BUBBLE to put you in.

It seems WE are loosing the FREEDOM of living life without ever more scrutiny and the terrorists just enjoy us dancing to their tunes.

I am betting that if you put out $1 Billion reward on the leaders heads this problem would be solved overnight BUT then again all the companies that rely on you living in fear will lose $$$.
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Old November 25th, 2010, 02:15 PM   #148 (permalink)
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If I invite you to my house, I have the right to search you before entering. If you don't comply, I can tell you to leave.
I think you do indeed have the "right." Well, it is not a right, I suppose, since we are (seem to be?) talking about the constitutionality of the TSA searches and what constitutes a right.

I also have the "right" not to darken your doorway.

By the way, if I bring my kids with me and you touch them like some TSA employees apparently do, you run the risk of a child assault or molestation charge and a huge bill to fix broken teeth. Warn us that you demand searches, however. Or you run the risk of being charged with assault for putting your hands on me and mine.

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Old November 25th, 2010, 02:28 PM   #149 (permalink)
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TBH they are taking this too far
Seems like a culture of fear


EDIT: when you take out the leaders, they get replaced...
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Old November 25th, 2010, 02:33 PM   #150 (permalink)
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I understand that we operate under an innocent until proven guilty philosophy. But as I said "I FEEL" meaning my opinion, that in a situation where national security has been shown to be at risk, everyone should be treated guilty until proved otherwise, and to prove otherwise all you need to do is go through the body scanner or get a pat down. if you refuse then its a red flag that you are hiding something. theres your probable cause.


im not saying in all situations to follow this philosophy. just those involving national security. (flights etc...)
Ahhh National Security. How many times must this be used to justify acts that are clearly unconstitutional? YES, we have a dire need for national security. Absolutely we do. But that phrase can be used to cover a multitude of sins by a multitude of people that think everyone is a potential threat.

When you are a hammer, everyone looks like a nail.

As for probable cause, you are wrong. I am a smart and clever fellow and if I were a cop, I am certain I could find a way to look at you. National Security is one answer and I/we would not need to justify why we dragged you to a little dark room for a few days of questioning. Then you decide probable cause sucks..

I suggest you grab a copy of Black's and read it.

We are/were innocent until proven guilty, but the TSA reverses it; we are all guilty, we have no rights, it is in the national interest that we make you remove a breast implant, as happened to one sad lady. What should we now fear, titty bombs? What is next? Vaginal inspections, time alone with “Terrorist Children,” perhaps? If we flew stark naked, the TSA will likely find reasons to scan and fondle with abandon.

What’s next? Scanners costing billions at bus stations and train stations? Checkpoints of all roads? It does not take a security expert to see that when it becomes too iffy to sneak a bomb past the TSA, they start planting them elsewhere. Then what? Perhaps if you watch Al Jezerra, probable cause allows us to search your house.

Where does it end?

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