A.Nonymous

I have been just as pissed off about the new scanners as everyone else and I get the pleasure of traveling tomorrow. I don't think the scanners have arrived at my airport yet. If they are there tomorrow, I plan on boycotting them. It's just too invasive for me and protects against practically nothing IMO. The national boycott of the scanners is tomorrow. Anyone else traveling and plan on participating?

VegasOnAcid

I am traveling tomorrow.. I hope tons of people do this so the line is short =)

Vihzel

I am. I'm not flying tomorrow but I'll boycott in spirit.

NYCHitman1

Like Vegas said, the lines will be much shorter. I've got no problem with showing a little skin to ensure that nobody is carrying bombs or weapons on board a plane.

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Last edited by NYCHitman1; November 23rd, 2010 at 10:13 AM.

lrv

The only time you're wasting is your own. TSA doesn't care if you fly or not, and if you don't allow a search, you're simply not flying. It's no skin off their back.

Flying is like gasoline to some people. No matter how high the price, or what you must do to get it, it's still a necessity.

By the way, it's not invasive. You're choosing to fly. Their house, their rules.

A.Nonymous

It is invasive though. Even the TSA chief has said it's invasive. His argument is that if you want to be safe, you must be invasive. The scanners don't even see through skin though. I could shove a bomb up my wazoo and walk right through the scanners without setting them off.

lrv

If they're invasive, don't fly.

Last edited by lrv; November 23rd, 2010 at 10:22 AM.

nyydynasty

i dont see ANY problem with these scanners and everyone is making a huge deal over nothing. Just walk through the damn scanners and lets get on with the day!! No one wants to save a picture of the outline of your weeny and post it online. Its not the large. walk thru it so we can move on with our lives.

one person makes a big deal over things and everyone else follows like little monkeys.
kthxbye

ScorpDX

I don't mind the scanners. I'll go through it and ask the operator how my d**k measures up to everyone else! Really, stop being such a prude and worrying that someone will see your tiny pecker!

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lunatic59

I find it mildly hypocritical that the boycott promoters seem to be okay with making the worst travel day of the year even worse and messing up other people's travel arrangements to protest "their rights." Message to those people ... air travel is a privilege, not a right. Don't like it? take the bus ... or drive.

Let me pose this question to those who object to body scanners ... when your doctor sends you for "invasive" diagnostic tests including strangers poking, prodding and seeing your "junk", both live and in detailed images which ARE stored for distribution to other strangers in order to protect you from attack by a sinister disease ... do you opt out?

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baberz

I don't really care because I don't see myself driving up to Boston just to avoid someone seeing the shape of my boobs or cooch. Yes they might be going a little over board, but people are still going to fly. period.

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byteware

I'm actually disgusted.

I've read the news that says 80% of Americans think this is ok.

My God, so much American blood has been spilled to ensure we had these rights, and you all just give them up without a fight.

We have gone from a nation of principle and freedom to a nation of cowards. And of that I'm ashamed.

I'm ashamed of my military service to this country, I'm ashamed to have defended your rights, and I think that each and every one of you that is willing to just give up their rights like this owes every American who has spilled blood or lost their lives on the battlefield. You owe them a refund. They paid a price for your freedom, and you owe that back to them.

That's about all I can say on this topic... it just infuriates me so much.

lrv

Flying isn't a right.

A.Nonymous

Pics from these machines have already leaked online along with security footage associating people with the images. It's already happened.

You forget that the TSA works for me. I have a right to demand less invasive means that are safer. It's sad that they have these things basically because they have a powerful lobby in DC, not because they make anyone safer. Keep flying. Go through the scanners. Enjoy seeing your naked body online. Enjoy the skin cancer you'll get in 5-10 years.

A.Nonymous

Not being seen naked in public is.

byteware

But let's play this game... what else isn't a right.

Driving.

Eating at Taco Bell.

Having a job.


Just because you don't have the right to do something, doesn't mean that by doing it, you give up your right to unreasonable searches and seizures.




Driving isn't a right, but just because you drive doesn't mean that they can search your vehicle without probable cause.

It doesn't mean that they can search you, just so you can drive either.

It would be a violation of your rights.


You owe every veteran of every war in the history of this nation every second of their lives that they sacrificed, every limb that they lived without, and every drop of blood that they left on the battlefield so that you could have these rights.

You owe that back to them. If you are going to give up the rights that they sacrificed for... you owe them.

NYCHitman1

lol, this thread delivers!

lrv

You're right, and there is no excuse. However, that doesn't justify completely going off track of their original intent, to keep people safe.

Seriously, you're going to use that excuse, when the fact of the matter is you're getting ready to get in a radiation box, anyway?



Once again, the leaked images are ridiculous. There is no excuse. Personally, I could care less about someone seeing my scanned images in public, because you can't typically put a face with a body from those images alone. However, like I said, there is no excuse and someone should be held accountable for it.

They have deemed this to not be unreasonable search and seizure. Fight all you want, but I, along with many other people in this thread alone, agree with the searches. I'll be happy to be one of many people searched, as long as I know I'm safe on the plane.

It's not reasonable, nor possible, to search every person entering a vehicle. I've never seen a vehicle cause as much damage as the planes from 9/11.

lunatic59

Okay, let's ...

No one is forcing anybody to be scanned. They make it a prerequisite to entering the airport, just like they make possessing a valid passport a requirement to enter the country.


No, but it does mean they can mandate periodic vehicle safety inspections, taking and passing a vehicle operators test and possessing liability insurance as a prerequisite to being permitted to use the state and federal roads.

I suppose sobriety checkpoints are also a violation of the fourth amendment.


Stop waving that flag around, you'll put someone's eye out.

A.Nonymous

And you can make a strong argument that they don't actually keep you safe. If I show a gun in my waistband, you'll see it with these scanners. That same gun will still set off the metal detector. The intent is noble. The execution is laughable.

It's how the radiation is dispersed more than anything. It's dispersed directly at your skin (by design) rather than being absorbed and dispersed through your body like a normal x-ray would. Not to mention the fact that experts on these things have claimed that scanning more than 1,000 people a day could be extremely hazardous to one's health long term. You and I as flyers may be perfectly safe if we don't fly that often. The TSA agents are never going to be able to have kids. Just saying.

The images that leaked showed the body scans and images from a security camera side by side so you could easily match bodies with scans. I realize a lot of people don't care if they're seen naked on the Internet. I'd rather not be one of them though.

The risk is there. The people who leaked the images violated rules and protocols. No question about it. They ought to be punished. No disagreement. You can't get those pictures back from the Internet though. Once it's out there, it's out there.

There are no 4th ammendment issues here. There's legal precedent for that. I don't think the scans make us any safer though.

IOWA

I bet the airlines losing money care. I'm boycotting flying altogether. If the airlines lose enough money, you better believe they'll get rid of these stupid ass scanners/searches.

And there is no better time than NOW to fight for your rights. If you don't fight for your rights, your spitting in the eye of all the servicemen who put THEIR lives on the line so you can come here and bitch about how you don't get your Android update on time, instead of having to worry about catching a bullet or a bomb on a daily basis.

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nyydynasty

even if it WERE leaked, how the f- are you supposed to know its yours.

WHO CARES!

RiverOfIce

Lol. Ok three things here.
1.) Two Quotes, from people that found this country and had to live with daily terrorism.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.-Ben Franklin.
A Constitution of Government once changed from Freedom, can never be restored. Liberty, once lost, is lost forever.- John Adams.

2.) It is not about safety, it is about keeping you afraid. Because if you are afraid you will be willing to give up your liberty for money, they get more money. You understand it always has been about money right?

3.) [/edited]

IOWA

Seriously?

-I really want to say something here, and it isn't nice and would end up getting me banned I'm sure.

And for me to curb my speech, of all people on here, you know it's bad.

nyydynasty

seriously. walk thru the damn scanners and lets move on with our lives please. its painful enough to go thru security in airports. lets not make it worse.

lunatic59

Could someone please explain which specific rights, freedoms and liberties are being usurped, abrogated or violated by passing through security scanning prior to boarding an aircraft?

lrv

How is this supposed to scare someone? It makes me feel more secure.

VegasOnAcid

All the rights discussions aside. I find it really funny that when they tested these scanners that they didn't even catch some things that were hidden. lol

ekyle

That's a choice/law

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Last edited by ekyle; November 23rd, 2010 at 12:30 PM.

NYCHitman1

JFK is no joke this time of the year.

byteware

The government doesn't get to "deem" it reasonable. Every search every government agent (police, FBI, TSA, etc...) has EVER done has been reasonable, until the courts say otherwise.

Who says it's not reasonable. According to you, if the government deems it reasonable, then it darn well is.

So, if making a public strip search a prerequisite to getting your driver's license issued/renewed, you would be ok, because no one is forcing you?

That's not a search. If you were required to be strip searched before you drove, would you say... I just won't drive?

For those who have to fly for their job, or else their family has no money... they ARE being forced.

There is no search happening on a sobriety checkpoint, at least not without probable cause.


You look at the graves of Americans who have died for you to have these rights, and say.. "eh... no thanks", and you think that's ok?

Easy. The images aren't stored with the faces obscured. They are stored intact.

You mean to tell me, that if a naked picture of your 8 year old daughter started circulating the internet that you wouldn't care? Really?

Comments like these make me sick at my stomach. How could we as Americans care so little about our rights. You don't deserve the protection that has been afforded you.

Fourth Amendment.

These types of searches are unconstitutional WITHOUT probable cause.

Flying isn't probable cause.






Looking back, I would never serve this country in the military if I knew then what I know now. Why in the hell should I put my life on the line to protect your rights, if you don't even want them.

A.Nonymous

The images that leaked earlier leaked with pictures from a security camera. You could see the scanner images and the security camera images as well.

lunatic59

But they don't. And neither does the TSA do public strip searches. Typical straw man argument. You have misrepresented my position and then used that misrepresentation to "prove" me wrong. They (being the local and state authorities) do require I empty my pockets and pass through a metal detector to enter many public buildings, should I need to enter them, which as a citizen I am required to do to serve as a juror, for example. Passing through any kind of scanning security is a form of search, since the point is they are searching for weapons.


But you are not, so arguing that point is ridiculous and irrelevant. And again, it is NOT a strip search. Representing it as such is hyperbole designed to enrage and incite.

If they are being forced to do anything, it is being forced to travel by air by their employer who should then bear at least some of the responsibilities of what that entails. Mandatory drug tests for professional athletes are part of their employment contract and they must agree to that in order to play. Just as you must agree to be screened before you can fly. You can walk away, if you find it so objectionable and perhaps risk your livelihood in the process, but it's still your choice.

Cars are randomly stopped and the officers look inside. granted they don't open trunks or look under seats but they still look in your car and prevent you from proceeding until they are satisfied it is safe for you to continue driving.


Inflammatory and offensive.

It's easy to throw this out there, but still, no explanation.

*sigh*

nyydynasty

its not worth getting into at this point. no one will give in LOL

i'll be walking thru those scanners and if you dont like it, then dont fly. as someone said earlier, the lines will be shorter so you're helping me out - thanks.

IOWA

What other event in history was similar to this hmm...

.. Strip searches

.. Humiliation

.. Blatant disregard for humanity

.. And the victims not even willing to fight back?

.....Oh right, the holocaust.... And this time the offenders are getting paid $15/hr to violate YOUR rights, your CHILDRENS rights, and more.

So if you had an 8 yr old daughter, you'd be ok with someone taking nude photographs of her or manhandling her privates?

... Would you?!?

All because you can save a few hours vs driving/train ?

Would that be ok with you?

...Some people.

And it's a sad state when people like the quoted don't have enough balls to fight this kind of monstrosity, yet they will get on an internet forum and pretend like there is nothing wrong with it. Why?

Last edited by IOWA; November 23rd, 2010 at 02:21 PM.

A.Nonymous

As mentioned earlier, some people don't have the choice. If I don't fly, I may never get to see my grandparents ever again. They're in their late 80s. Some people fly for business every day.

This is to say nothing of the poor TSA employees who are getting a high dose of radiation on a daily basis with no protection. X-ray techs wear the lead vests and go in a different room because exposing themselves to radiation every day for a long period of time has health effects. It's no biggie to the patient who gets an x-ray every 6 mos, but it is a big deal to the person working the machine every day. The TSA employees have nothing to protect themselves.

lunatic59

And once again we have a demonstration of Godwin's law.

Game over.

Vihzel

Have you guys seen the video of a child being strip searched by TSA? Check it out on Youtube. I don't exactly remember but I believe the boy was crying throughout the ordeal.

IOWA

Speaking of this, even the TSA employees are coming out against this.

93civiccpe

Here's what I propose.. it is a multi-fascet response as it seems as they are making the "pat-downs" incredibly terrible to make the alternative (body scans) more appealing. If you make the alternative miserable enough, everyone will stop fighting and just go along. Well lets turn these tables.

While they are about to begin the patdown, you are required to stand still but you do not have to be quiet. As soon as they touch your ankle to work their way up, I suggest making the sound of your favorite barnyard animal. Blow some kisses.. lick your lips.. give a wink.. you know.. creep them out.

Phase two is not for the faint of heart. Stand in line in a fishnet shirt and bicycle shorts and pop a few viagra before you get there. There's no way they are going to want to pat you down, but it is their job. Once again, barnyard noises, blowing kisses, licking lips, etc. can only help...

tommy_ed

unreasonable search or seizure; search without a warrant

i think this is pretty wrong, and it isn't really doing much as far as security goes.

READ THIS:
Watch: ‘If you touch my junk, I’m gonna have you arrested,’ man tells TSA agent after refusing body scanner | Raw Story

then watch/listen to the youtube videos...

VegasOnAcid

Kids cry when they get their hair cut too tho.. lol.

In general I feel it is too invasive, esp since their scanners dont even pass their own tests.... But I fly pretty often so little I can really do.

Funny how things have changed... When I was a kid, I got caught in Ohare with a toy gun, before they painted orange on them. It was all black looked extremely real. When they took it from me they just gave my dad a dirty look... Now he would probably have been arrested and sent to Cuba for "further questioning."

byteware

Let me see, your position was... you aren't forced to be scanned, so that makes it ok.

Regardless of the fact that many people have to choose between being scanned and/or groped OR not be able to feed their family

My statement was, if they did a public strip search in order to get your driver's license... nobody would be forcing you. So that would be ok.

I'm taking your justification for this being ok, and applying it to something else, and I'm applying it HONESTLY.

However, applying your justification like that invalidates your position, and so you don't like it... that's not a strawman argument, that's a... you don't like it argument.

Hence the difference between reasonable, and unreasonable.


Oh, so your justification that "you aren't forced to" only applies to flying in an airplane? Is there a limit to what they can do as long as they don't "force you to"?

As far as it not being a strip search. They are taking naked pictures of you. How exactly is that different from a strip search? Aside from the fact that you never see the person seeing you naked, and they get to keep naked pictures of you?

Right, because Employers should protect their employees from being strip searched by the government for no good reason... /sarcasm

Right, in this economy, you can quit a job you've had for 20 years because you don't want to be screened. There are tons of jobs just waiting for someone to fill them. Have you lost your mind. You are honestly comparing an employer requiring a drug test, to the government doing a strip search on you for no good reason?

Are you really comparing cops looking in your car with taking naked pictures of you?

Now, if cops were allowed to thoroughly search your car, then we would have a comparison. But honestly, you are comparing a cop looking over visible areas of your car for anything suspicious, with a rental cop taking naked pictures of you?

I'm sorry you are offended that I get disgusted when people give up their rights without a fight. I'm offended that you would even TRY justifying giving up your rights.

[QUOTE=lunatic59;1914481It's easy to throw this out there, but still, no explanation.[/Quote]

Taking naked pictures of you is unreasonable. Touching your private areas is unreasonable. Now, if there is some reason to suspect that you are a threat, I can completely understand it. However, just because I choose to fly is not probable cause to stick your hands in my pants.

You know what else... kids cry when they feel violated too. We spend years teaching our children that no one should touch them there... and then we sit back helpless while it happens against our and their will.

A.Nonymous

The TSA now has their own Twitter account. Worth reading.

copestag

if youre referring to the video of the 10 year old boy with his shirt off....... he wasnt being strip searched...... he was undergoing their normal patdown and started throwing a fit when they reached around his chest........ so his father took his shirt off so they could see rather than touch........ at least thats the story the father told when interviewed about it

as far as the groping and invasive patdowns go........ its kind of funny that every story weve heard so far of them going too far.... the very next day the TSA releases a statement saying there were rumors that the terrorists were gonna use this method to try to smuggle bombs........ example: woman forced to remove her fake boob...... next day TSA says there were rumors that terrorists were gonna use prosthetics to smuggle..... why are none of these "rumors" known before theres an issue with a screener?

so whats next...... as someone mentioned above..... and I mentioned in another thread yesterday......the scanners and patdowns cannot detect something internal....... drug mules have been smuggling drugs in their anal cavities for decades...... so are we going to eventually have mandatory colonoscopies for everyone before boarding the plane? after all its about safety....... and you cant be even reasonably sure theres no bomb without everyone having a scope jammed in their rear end

IMO until there are mandatory colonoscopies for every person in the airport then we may as well get rid of all security measures.......... whats the point of scanning someone if it cant even remotely be sure theres no danger?

lunatic59

I am bored with arguing histrionics and hyperbole. This is not about strip searches or feeling up 9 year olds. Protest if you will, fly if you must. I wish you no ill.

IOWA

Translation = Crap, I ran out of Ammo.

lrv

Right, I'm sure it will see a judge soon, and they'll deem it reasonable.

I don't deem it unreasonable because you're choosing to fly. If you were walking down the street, and someone walked up for a search, that would be a different story. But, when all is said and done, you're coming to their turf, using their tools. If they require a search, you still have the choice of walking away.

You're not being forced to submit yourself to the search.

No, you obviously have a self entitlement issue. There are many jobs in which flying is not required.

Seriously, you're bringing up people fighting for our rights, again? Look, we don't think it's a violation of any of our rights. We accept that in order to fly, a privilege, we must submit to a search. It's that simple.

Well, by flying, you're potentially giving permission to be searched. If not, you don't fly, get over it.

Really? Thank you for serving, but no thank you. I'd rather you not serve if you're going to throw it in our face every other day.

Did you seriously just compare flying on an airplane to the Holocaust? Credibility out the window.

Take the train.

Really? I used to work in an ER, right down the hall from Radiology. They never wore any protection, other than a small button-like device to tell how much radiation they've been subjected to.

If you're coming to my house, but I tell you you can't come in unless you allow me to search you, it's either (a) let me search and you come in or (b) you turn around and go home.

You still have the choice not to fly.

There is no right to fly. It's an inconvenience to not fly, but not even close to a violation of your rights.

No one is forcing you to fly! This country operated for years without planes, get over yourself.

Translation: "There is no point in arguing this matter because I agree with it, but they feel a sense of entitlement, and how dare they(!) search me! I'm an American!"

Last edited by lrv; November 23rd, 2010 at 04:14 PM.

ChiTownJim

I don't get why people are so sensative about this. While it's sorta invading peoples personal privacey quit being so lame . So what if a TSA person sees you naked or feels you up. Deal with it....
I forgot to pay a speeding ticket and ended up getting arrested for it. When I was booked they made me strip down , lift my sack and spread my cheeks. I've never had more then moving violations in my life. But whatever they were doing my job and really didn't care about it at the time. Shit happens

lunatic59

Nah, just patience. No point in trying to pet a rabid dog. Just wait until it dies or shoot it.