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Old September 20th, 2012, 08:43 AM   #101 (permalink)
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I do like the idea of sending Congressmen home in stocks. I wonder if we could implement a system where if you are defeated in an election you are sent home in stocks to be publicly humiliated for your poor performance. Choose to retire before your constituents are sick of you and you can go home in peace.
So if a politician does something that is right, but the majority of their constituents are shitty, ignorant people, they should be punished?

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Old September 20th, 2012, 08:55 AM   #102 (permalink)
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So if a politician does something that is right, but the majority of their constituents are shitty, ignorant people, they should be punished?

Yes. Their job is to represent their constituents, not be mommy to them.
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Old September 20th, 2012, 10:27 AM   #103 (permalink)
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Yes. Their job is to represent their constituents, not be mommy to them.
Right.

So politician gets elected. He becomes part of a new government after the incumbent one fails to get seats. There is an economic crisis. Politician supports tough measures to get the state back on track, but does so fairly. Taxes are raised and spending cut, and wage increases are not given due to the crisis. Next election he loses his seat for supporting these measures, despite doing his best to ensure fairness.
Does he deserved to be pilloried because his constituents don't understand the shit that the last government got them into?
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Old September 20th, 2012, 11:37 AM   #104 (permalink)
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Right.

So politician gets elected. He becomes part of a new government after the incumbent one fails to get seats. There is an economic crisis. Politician supports tough measures to get the state back on track, but does so fairly. Taxes are raised and spending cut, and wage increases are not given due to the crisis. Next election he loses his seat for supporting these measures, despite doing his best to ensure fairness.
Does he deserved to be pilloried because his constituents don't understand the shit that the last government got them into?
Mix it any way you want with what ever circle jerk argument you want.

A congressman's job is to follow exactly the wishes of his constituents who voted for him to represent them in congress. Represent THEM, not his own beliefs and right or wrong does not come into it. They are chosen to do a very specific job.

You are preaching Liberal Socialism that we have for over 2 centuries dismissed as not being how we want to rule ourselves.

This ties in perfectly with my point from an other thread. Our politics are our business, the rest of the world can feel free to remove their noses from it at any time.

Sooner would be much preferable to later.
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Old September 20th, 2012, 12:10 PM   #105 (permalink)
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Right.

So politician gets elected. He becomes part of a new government after the incumbent one fails to get seats. There is an economic crisis. Politician supports tough measures to get the state back on track, but does so fairly. Taxes are raised and spending cut, and wage increases are not given due to the crisis. Next election he loses his seat for supporting these measures, despite doing his best to ensure fairness.
Does he deserved to be pilloried because his constituents don't understand the shit that the last government got them into?
In short, yes. He didn't do his job. His job is to represent his constituents, not play mommy to them and give them what he thinks is best. The constituents are supposed to get what they want. If they are spoiled children, then they are spoiled children. He is 1 of 535 people. He doesn't have a lot of influence overall. His job is to represent.

Perfect example happened here locally a few years ago. A proposal was up before the county commission to raise the local sales tax in order to fund a downtown arena. The populace, by and large, opposed this idea. They didn't want a downtown arena. They didn't want eminent domain seizing land downtown. They didn't buy that the area would be "re-vitalized" by an arena. They didn't think the arena would be profitable long term and would end up being a vacant eyesore. The commission disagreed and voted in favor of the tax increase and building the arena. A year later the election came around and 2 of the 6 councilmen were up for election. They both lost their jobs. Two years later, the next two that were up for election lost their jobs as well. By the time the last two came up for election I think one of them got voted out and the other didn't as people had kind of cooled down by then. Now, the arena has been built and finished and has been in operation for about two years or so. While it hasn't had the effect of re-vitalizing the downtown area it has attracted some big name acts and has been making a profit it's first two years in operation. So far, the commission has proved to be right. Whether they will be long term remains to be seen. Doesn't change the fact that 4 people lost their jobs because the voters disapproved of their actions. They failed to represent their constituents and their constituents fired them.
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Old September 20th, 2012, 12:29 PM   #106 (permalink)
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You are preaching Liberal Socialism that we have for over 2 centuries dismissed as not being how we want to rule ourselves.
I am?
Prove it.
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Old September 20th, 2012, 01:41 PM   #107 (permalink)
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I am?
Prove it.
Preaching. You are in a thread about the American Economy that was meant to be silly and start in a serious debate in reply to what was a silly sarcastic bit of wit. You were answered with a pretty uniform answer by 2 Americans that are often on opposite sides of every debate and you still proceeded to tell us we are in fact wrong.

Liberal Socialist the point you were preaching was full of LS talking points like fairness and how we have it wrong with a Representative Democracy.

Now put in context with several prior LS talking point posts you have made I perceive your point coming from that perspective.

I could go pick through many many many posts of yours to make a stronger case but I just don't feel like wasting my time with it and am going to leave and ignore what was a fun silly thread about a troubling topic that in fact is no one else's damn business but our own.

Good Day.
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Old September 20th, 2012, 11:29 PM   #108 (permalink)
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Yes, let us not make comments on any country, but our own.
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Old September 26th, 2012, 10:59 AM   #109 (permalink)
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How to create the model economy: lessons from global winners | Jeffrey Sachs | Business | guardian.co.uk
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Old October 2nd, 2012, 01:58 AM   #110 (permalink)
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In short, yes. He didn't do his job. His job is to represent his constituents, not play mommy to them and give them what he thinks is best. The constituents are supposed to get what they want. If they are spoiled children, then they are spoiled children. He is 1 of 535 people. He doesn't have a lot of influence overall. His job is to represent.

Perfect example happened here locally a few years ago. A proposal was up before the county commission to raise the local sales tax in order to fund a downtown arena. The populace, by and large, opposed this idea. They didn't want a downtown arena. They didn't want eminent domain seizing land downtown. They didn't buy that the area would be "re-vitalized" by an arena. They didn't think the arena would be profitable long term and would end up being a vacant eyesore. The commission disagreed and voted in favor of the tax increase and building the arena. A year later the election came around and 2 of the 6 councilmen were up for election. They both lost their jobs. Two years later, the next two that were up for election lost their jobs as well. By the time the last two came up for election I think one of them got voted out and the other didn't as people had kind of cooled down by then. Now, the arena has been built and finished and has been in operation for about two years or so. While it hasn't had the effect of re-vitalizing the downtown area it has attracted some big name acts and has been making a profit it's first two years in operation. So far, the commission has proved to be right. Whether they will be long term remains to be seen. Doesn't change the fact that 4 people lost their jobs because the voters disapproved of their actions. They failed to represent their constituents and their constituents fired them.

Do you by chance live in a larger city in Kansas?
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Old October 2nd, 2012, 02:32 AM   #111 (permalink)
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Definitely agree on letting the Bush tax cuts expire, we need a progressive tax model that would call for those with the highest personal income to be paying the largest share of taxes.

I'd also severely slash the military-industrial complex and pump large amounts of that money into education funding. No idea how Republicans can call themselves a party that cares about the future of our country when they consistently try to slash education spending and teachers' wages.
I am currently taking an ag policy class which has been very eye opening, yet fairly interesting. As with a lot of politics you have to wonder what is factual and what is B.S however the Dr teaching it is a very old man and leads me to believe he has seen quite a bit when it comes to policy making and the impacts the economy has on it and vis-versa all the while being as objective as humanly possible. Although we are learning just the fundamentals, from my understanding gathered from this class and a macro class I have had. It leads me to believe that military spending has the biggest "trickle down effect" for the economy where as social programs seem to yield less. Also interesting fact Ag budgets have been cut roughly 5 fold over the past 5ish years. Where as other budgets haven't seen near the effect, if any. I also believe that for any country to survive that country's agriculture needs to have full suport(understanding) from the government and its consumers. However, if farmers can survive on farm payments being cut that much over the years why haven't other area's budgets seen the same cuts? This is something that could be used to balance the budget.

Also there was a proposal made by a man whose last name started with an S and then another guy whose last name was bowle who had a proposal for obama on how to balance the budget and he was too foolish to see it for what it was. This proposal was not only shot down by the democrats but the republicans as well. This leads me to what our biggest problem is. For our government to function and serve the people to its fullest extent politicians need to learn the definition of compromise. Without it we will get no where as we have seen in the recent years.

As far as letting the bush cuts expire sure it COULD be a good idea. However, have you thought of the consequences? Our bonds would drop from where they are now to the BB level(third world country status). I think that it would be a wake up call and create the push needed to flush our government of some corruption, but at what price? how long will it take to recover? What does that do for people who have investments in U.S bonds for retirement? I do think this situation may happen as we have yet to have the 2012 ag bill passed which from my understanding defaults back to the 1938 farm bill which would mean for all 2013 crops the gov. would be subsidizing a shit load of money to farmers. Like 11$ wheat(8.30ish now) 12$corn, 21$ soybeans. Tell me how that is good for our debt. This just goes to show how in the shitter our gov. is that they can't make a clear decision that will save money instead they will just let it ride causing more debt. I was also informed that there is over 5 trillion just floating around in money that our gov. leaves uninvested, along with 2trillion over seas that is never going to be brought back because of the taxation it would carry over with it. Why not let that money come back over with no tax and let it be spent. As far as how can republicans call themselves a party who cares about the people the same could be said about democrats. Neither of them seem to make decisions that are best for the people unless its good for their wallet as well.


These are just my views/opinions that I have gathered from the slight education I have on the matter. I'm not saying these are right, just how I see things.
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Old October 2nd, 2012, 09:29 AM   #112 (permalink)
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Fix the economy?

- Bring ALL of our troops home and shore up our borders. Stay out of foreign wars and instead lend 'moral' support. Our military budget and soldiers off-time spending needs to be done at home.

- Not a DIME in foreign aid, anytime a country has problems send a get-well card.

- Deport EVERY illegal alien with printed instructions on how to come back legally. Remember that illegal working status is a FELONY in many nations.

- Close the UN on our soil and encourage another nation to take up the bill. Why spend so much $ on foreign dignataries that hate us?

- Keep our noses on or own issues and if any nation/group(terrorists) attack us hold them liable and wipe them off the map.

edit: - any nation that has unfair trade policies (China I am looking at you) adjust our laws to even the playing field.


.
In short, American dollars for Americans!
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Old October 2nd, 2012, 01:29 PM   #113 (permalink)
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I am currently taking an ag policy class which has been very eye opening, yet fairly interesting. As with a lot of politics you have to wonder what is factual and what is B.S however the Dr teaching it is a very old man and leads me to believe he has seen quite a bit when it comes to policy making and the impacts the economy has on it and vis-versa all the while being as objective as humanly possible. Although we are learning just the fundamentals, from my understanding gathered from this class and a macro class I have had. It leads me to believe that military spending has the biggest "trickle down effect" for the economy where as social programs seem to yield less. Also interesting fact Ag budgets have been cut roughly 5 fold over the past 5ish years. Where as other budgets haven't seen near the effect, if any. I also believe that for any country to survive that country's agriculture needs to have full suport(understanding) from the government and its consumers. However, if farmers can survive on farm payments being cut that much over the years why haven't other area's budgets seen the same cuts? This is something that could be used to balance the budget.
I doubt subsidies have been cut by that much. That said, agricultural subsidies need to come down, although I would agree they are necessary. They should be focused on sustainability and environmental protection, and production should not be more than is needed.

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As far as letting the bush cuts expire sure it COULD be a good idea. However, have you thought of the consequences? Our bonds would drop from where they are now to the BB level(third world country status). I think that it would be a wake up call and create the push needed to flush our government of some corruption, but at what price? how long will it take to recover? What does that do for people who have investments in U.S bonds for retirement? I do think this situation may happen as we have yet to have the 2012 ag bill passed which from my understanding defaults back to the 1938 farm bill which would mean for all 2013 crops the gov. would be subsidizing a shit load of money to farmers. Like 11$ wheat(8.30ish now) 12$corn, 21$ soybeans. Tell me how that is good for our debt. This just goes to show how in the shitter our gov. is that they can't make a clear decision that will save money instead they will just let it ride causing more debt. I was also informed that there is over 5 trillion just floating around in money that our gov. leaves uninvested, along with 2trillion over seas that is never going to be brought back because of the taxation it would carry over with it. Why not let that money come back over with no tax and let it be spent. As far as how can republicans call themselves a party who cares about the people the same could be said about democrats. Neither of them seem to make decisions that are best for the people unless its good for their wallet as well.
How would increasing tax revenue worsen your credit rating? That's ridiculous, as these tax cuts have little economic benefits, and ending them would help reduce the deficit. The US government not being able to borrow at negative interest rates would be interesting, its very unfair that the US can borrow cheaper than France.
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Old October 2nd, 2012, 01:43 PM   #114 (permalink)
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Fix the economy?

- Bring ALL of our troops home and shore up our borders. Stay out of foreign wars and instead lend 'moral' support. Our military budget and soldiers off-time spending needs to be done at home.
A military seems awfully pointless if you don't use it where necessary.
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- Not a DIME in foreign aid, anytime a country has problems send a get-well card.
So you'll give countries a fair price for their goods, and also hope that they are well behaved without any incentive.


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Originally Posted by kevincott View Post

- Close the UN on our soil and encourage another nation to take up the bill. Why spend so much $ on foreign dignataries that hate us?
Well as it happens, the US contributes far less to running the UN than Europe - despite hosting it. Point be moot.

[QUOTE=kevincott;5029717]


Well, the intervention of Afghanistan did wipe said terrorists off the map.


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In short, American dollars for Americans!
'Murrica
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Old October 2nd, 2012, 02:10 PM   #115 (permalink)
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If you read your post, you are supporting my position. If one is given higher wages, progressive taxation, pay for hours worked and unions to negotiate same then employers would be forced to hire more workers. I probably did overstate numbers of exempt employees, as income needs to be above $23,660 to be classified as exempt, but haven't found hard numbers. Then again, lawsuits have increased.

More American workers sue employers for overtime pay

Workers' main grievance is that they had to put in more than 40 hours a week without overtime pay through various practices:

•They were forced to work off the clock.

•Their jobs were misclassified as exempt from overtime requirements.

•Because of smartphones and other technology, work bled into their personal time.

"The recession (put) more pressure on businesses to squeeze workers and cut costs," says Catherine Ruckelshaus, legal co-director of the National Employment Law Project. If employers had to bear the actual expense of overtime, she says, they likely would have hired more workers in the economic recovery.
Just started reading this thread so sorry for reaching this far back but I have to ask where you got this sum for being exempt from overtime. If you are paid hourly it does not matter how much you make you are legally entitled to overtime pay.

My ex brother-in-law made $28.00 per hour working for one of the refineries in Houston. When the worked "Shut Down" they went 18 hours a day for two straight weeks, they worked every other shut down I think and got 2 weeks off after, and his pay went to over $200.00 per hour due to double and triple overtime!

Some states require you work 40 hours before getting overtime, others require it if you work more than 8 hours in one day.

As far as cutting peoples hours to create more work for others, this will only make things worse unless every company out there reduces prices at the same time. Otherwise people will be expected to live on less income but still have the same expenses.
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Old October 2nd, 2012, 04:19 PM   #116 (permalink)
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@ElasticNinja Google of Cork City, IMF, EU shows you are from southern Ireland.


A military seems awfully pointless if you don't use it where necessary.
- NO American I have talked to wants our soldiers lives on the line or the expense, especially when other nations do little or nothing


So you'll give countries a fair price for their goods, and also hope that they are well behaved without any incentive.
- If your price isn't good enough we'll buy goods elsewhere or make them at home


Well as it happens, the US contributes far less to running the UN than Europe - despite hosting it. Point be moot.
- I am waiting on a reliable and unbiased source


Well, the intervention of Afghanistan did wipe said terrorists off the map.
- Only after we gave hundreds of billions to Pakistan, where Osama Bin Laden was hiding in plain sight. They still have not proffered an explanation as to why they took our money and had Bin Laden in their borders.


'Murrica
- insulting


I find it truly amazing how many foreign nationals seem to feel a sense of entitlement to American tax dollars and are insulting the USA in the process.
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Old October 2nd, 2012, 04:35 PM   #117 (permalink)
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@ElasticNinja Google of Cork City, IMF, EU shows you are from southern Ireland
Yup, indeed.
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NO American I have talked to wants our soldiers lives on the line or the expense, especially when other nations do little or nothing
Is that not soldiers' job?
I agree a lot of European nations have not done enough in Afghanistan (France, Germany, NL, Italy etc), but other countries have done more proportionally than the US (Denmark, the UK).



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- If your price isn't good enough we'll buy goods elsewhere or make them at home
Of course but that doesnt address my point regarding exploitation of least developed countries...

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Originally Posted by kevincott View Post
- I am waiting on a reliable and unbiased source
http://daccess-ods.un.org/TMP/5400450.22964478.html

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Originally Posted by kevincott View Post
- Only after we gave hundreds of billions to Pakistan, where Osama Bin Laden was hiding in plain sight. They still have not proffered an explanation as to why they took our money and had Bin Laden in their borders.
hundreds of billions? That would be Israel.
The Pakistan situation is ridiculous I must say. Their military are absolute spanners, and the country is going down the tubes. Not forgetting that the bulk of Taliban fighters were Pakistani military approved Pakistanis.

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- insulting


I find it truly amazing how many foreign nationals seem to feel a sense of entitlement to American tax dollars and are insulting the USA in the process.
What US tax dollars? Please show me the foreign aid I am meant to receive. Please, I could really use it!

Anyway, I'm pretty sure you owe us money for the foreign aid we give to make up for your country's stinginess.
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Old October 2nd, 2012, 05:02 PM   #118 (permalink)
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@ElasticNinja

Is that not soldiers' job?
I agree a lot of European nations have not done enough in Afghanistan (France, Germany, NL, Italy etc), but other countries have done more proportionally than the US (Denmark, the UK).
-Our soldiers job is to protect American citizens, not police the world. No one has spent more ($ and lives) helping other nations than the USA, period.


Of course but that doesnt address my point regarding exploitation of least developed countries...
- You never made any exploitation point, "and also hope that they are well behaved without any incentive" points to buying their goods and giving handouts.


http://daccess-ods.un.org/TMP/5400450.22964478.html
- dead link http 404


hundreds of billions? That would be Israel.
The Pakistan situation is ridiculous I must say. Their military are absolute spanners, and the country is going down the tubes. Not forgetting that the bulk of Taliban fighters were Pakistani military approved Pakistanis.
- When Osama was killed it was all over world media that the USA has given Pakistan aid in the hudreds of billions, it caused much outrage here. Our supply routes were even closed and we stopped aid to Pakistan, for a time.

What US tax dollars? Please show me the foreign aid I am meant to receive. Please, I could really use it!
-I am not a citizen or taxpayer of Ireland, therefore if you posted to a thread about your economy I would never try to 'refute' your rage at Irish government spending. By refuting what I posted it shows you feel a sense of entitlement.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure you owe us money for the foreign aid we give to make up for your country's stinginess.
-Is this not a sense of entitlement?
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Old October 2nd, 2012, 06:46 PM   #119 (permalink)
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Just started reading this thread so sorry for reaching this far back but I have to ask where you got this sum for being exempt from overtime. If you are paid hourly it does not matter how much you make you are legally entitled to overtime pay. ...
That's a difference between an Exempt and NonExempt employee.
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Old October 2nd, 2012, 11:56 PM   #120 (permalink)
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I doubt subsidies have been cut by that much. That said, agricultural subsidies need to come down, although I would agree they are necessary. They should be focused on sustainability and environmental protection, and production should not be more than is needed.



How would increasing tax revenue worsen your credit rating? That's ridiculous, as these tax cuts have little economic benefits, and ending them would help reduce the deficit. The US government not being able to borrow at negative interest rates would be interesting, its very unfair that the US can borrow cheaper than France.
I'm not seeing where i said increasing tax would have any effect on credit ratings? Subsidies were at 32 billion in 2001-02 i believe an this last year around 2.8(ish) 80% of that goes to things outside of what many think of agriculture, like food stamps. If farmers can handle it then others should be able to afford a similar cut. Just my opinion.
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Old October 3rd, 2012, 12:09 AM   #121 (permalink)
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My idea. Well lets see 12 continuous years of spending money we didn't have. Ok, lets not do that.
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Old October 3rd, 2012, 08:42 AM   #122 (permalink)
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Joining this a bit late, but here's my idea. Simple, yet effective. Pass three laws.

Law #1: Require a super-majority of both houses of congress to pass an increase in any federal tax. Any federal tax. That includes whatever costs are incurred by complying with federal regulations, since that just another form of tax.

Law #2: Set aside 5% of each years federal tax revenue to pay down the debt. No exceptions.

Law #3: If congress spends more in any given year than the remaining 95% of that years federal tax receipts, they don't get paid that year.

Before you even ask, no, I'm not crazy enough to think this will ever get anywhere. Can you imagine the chaos that would ensue? I know this is overly simplistic and it would be a real problem figuring out what gets cut to comply. But, it sure would fix the problem, don't ya think?
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Old October 3rd, 2012, 09:47 AM   #123 (permalink)
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Law #2: Set aside 5% of each years federal tax revenue to pay down the debt. No exceptions.
Ah now, thats not really needed, and would be awfully arbitrary.

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Law #3: If congress spends more in any given year than the remaining 95% of that years federal tax receipts, they don't get paid that year.
What happens it there is a recession and they have to spend more?

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Before you even ask, no, I'm not crazy enough to think this will ever get anywhere. Can you imagine the chaos that would ensue? I know this is overly simplistic and it would be a real problem figuring out what gets cut to comply. But, it sure would fix the problem, don't ya think?
It might fix the problem now, but enforce cyclical economics, creating more problems down the line.
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Old October 3rd, 2012, 05:29 PM   #124 (permalink)
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+1 for Patrick :3

Aside from the picture, i agree with ElasticNinja, setting aside the 5% isn't really necessary to pay down the debt.

#3 Definitely could use some room for improvement, as in crisis things could go horribly wrong with it.

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It might fix the problem now, but enforce cyclical economics, creating more problems down the line.
Could i please live and die by this line.
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Old October 3rd, 2012, 08:43 PM   #125 (permalink)
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At this point I would welcome ANY plan to pay off the national debt. Haven't seen any proposed by either candidate. In fact the one thing they seem to agree on is that we need to spend more money we don't have. They disagree on how much to spend and what to spend it on, but they do agree that we need to spend more money.
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Old October 4th, 2012, 07:05 AM   #126 (permalink)
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Ah now, thats not really needed, and would be awfully arbitrary.


What happens it there is a recession and they have to spend more?


It might fix the problem now, but enforce cyclical economics, creating more problems down the line.
Not needed? Seriously?

Why do "they" have to spend more of "my" money during a recession?

Honest question: How does that enforce cyclical economics?
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Old October 4th, 2012, 12:35 PM   #127 (permalink)
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At this point I would welcome ANY plan to pay off the national debt. Haven't seen any proposed by either candidate. In fact the one thing they seem to agree on is that we need to spend more money we don't have. They disagree on how much to spend and what to spend it on, but they do agree that we need to spend more money.
Yeah, something really has to give, the deficit needs to be brought to 0% by the time the whole economic crisis is finally over.

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#3 Definitely could use some room for improvement, as in crisis things could go horribly wrong with it.
Yes, horribly, horribly wrong.
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Not needed? Seriously?
Yeah, seriously. You dont just set aside an arbitrary percentage of tax revenue to pay off debt.



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Why do "they" have to spend more of "my" money during a recession?
Because economics. Also, everything depends on the government, so government spending cant just zig zag up and down with the tax take. Those ideas died a horrible death 80 years ago.


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Honest question: How does that enforce cyclical economics?
Because it will not give the conditions for a stable economy, leading to a boom-bust cycle.
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Old October 4th, 2012, 11:51 PM   #128 (permalink)
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Get rid of the differential tax rate between earned income and capital income, it just causes gaming the system.

Progressive taxes evens up the playing field as the wealthy have undue influence in government. Progressive taxes also incentivizes the wealthy to support good governance as they have more to lose.

The main reason to support progressive taxation is reality, as voodoo economics doesn't work, progressive taxation does as our economy grows due to public investments and deficits remain manageable.

The externality of the "gas shocks" in the 70's was just a wake-up call that we were dependent on nonrenewal fuels, not that the economic system that got us out of the great depression didn't work.

Prosecute all members, including the CEOs of corporate members of ALEX (American Legislature Exchange) under RICO for conspiracy to pay and/or accept bribes, tax evasion and failure to register as a lobbyist.

Fixing the economy can't be done without first reforming political financing as this is the necessary first step to clean up the current extortion/bribery system.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 07:24 AM   #129 (permalink)
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Capital income should be taxed differently. Taxing capital income differently encourages investing which is not only good for the investor, but good for the economy as well.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 11:48 AM   #130 (permalink)
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Capital income should be taxed differently. Taxing capital income differently encourages investing which is not only good for the investor, but good for the economy as well.
Which is a myth. I've already posted studies that explodes that myth, but one only needs look when capital gains were taxed greater than earned income and GDP growth. In addition, differential tax rates on income streams just leads to gaming the system.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 03:26 PM   #131 (permalink)
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Which is a myth. I've already posted studies that explodes that myth, but one only needs look when capital gains were taxed greater than earned income and GDP growth. In addition, differential tax rates on income streams just leads to gaming the system.
What is a myth? Taxing capital gains differently encourages investing? Or that investing is good for the economy? Or that investing is good for the investor?

You realize that if you raise capital gains a side effect is that you are raising taxes on the elderly and retirees. That's cool though?
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Old October 5th, 2012, 04:02 PM   #132 (permalink)
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You realize that if you raise capital gains a side effect is that you are raising taxes on the elderly and retirees. That's cool though?
Sure, if they have an income stream.
Retirees are adults too. I'm pretty sure most pensioners who are making a decent amount off capital gains will have no financial problems paying some more tax.
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Old October 5th, 2012, 07:52 PM   #133 (permalink)
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Which is a myth. I've already posted studies that explodes that myth, but one only needs look when capital gains were taxed greater than earned income and GDP growth. In addition, differential tax rates on income streams just leads to gaming the system.
Problem is you can find a study that will support any and every opinion out there.

The capital gains tax is not restricted to just the wealthy, many middle income and even some low income people have capital investments and the tax hurts everyone.

I have have seen and lived first hand the times capital gains were taxed higher and everyone I know that it affected reduced investment and sat on their money rather than face the "penalty tax" (which is all it amounts to). If you could please find a study that explains how this is beneficial to the economy I would love to read it.

Taxes are not the answer, controlling spending is. Eliminating Congress ability to vote their own pay raises, take the limos and private jets away, make the military reward coming in under budget rather than punishing (if a department does not spend all money allocated for the year they loose some of their budget the following year), simplify things with the Fair Tax proposal and get rid of the IRS and all the bureaucracy involved, demand transparency and simplicity in legislation, get rid of lobbyists and demand accountability in all areas. This is just a short list, but these are some of the things that will get the country and economy back on the right track.
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Old October 7th, 2012, 07:10 PM   #134 (permalink)
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As previously posted: How would you fix US Economy?

Tax Cuts For The Rich Linked To Income Inequality, Not Economic Growth, Study Finds

A new study by the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service has found that over the past 65 years, tax cuts for the rich have not led to economic growth and instead are linked to greater income inequality in the United States.

The study found that cutting taxes for the rich does not increase saving, investment, or productivity growth. "The top tax rates appear to have little or no relation to the size of the economic pie," the study said.

Two graphs show the lack of connection between tax rates for the rich and economic growth:
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Old October 7th, 2012, 07:59 PM   #135 (permalink)
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And as I said, capital gains taxes are not exclusively the realm of the rich. You are punishing everybody subject to capital gains tax, if you sell your home you can be subject to capital gains. Have any investments? Real estate other than your "homestead"? Did you make money selling anything you own? All of these can be hit with capital gains tax.

I don't care what that study says the income inequality has nothing to do with taxes, if you want to stop that you will have to figure out how to eliminate greed. Taxing the wealthy more is not going to change that in any way shape or form, the people who conducted this study are positing a theory of their own concoction to achieve the goals they want.

If you want to make things fair put a 15% flat tax on everyone, no deductions or loopholes, everybody pays the same. I have news for you, this will be unfair in the eyes of people who support more tax on the wealthy because guess what, they will pay less than they do now and a large portion of the population will pay more. But it will be fair.

The real problem lies with companies where the CEO makes as much or more than all other employees combined. If you own a company you are entitled to make as much as you can, but to pay salaries of that magnitude for any position while many of the employees are scratching to make a living is pure greed and wrong. Get rid of that and you will see the inequality shrink.
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Old October 7th, 2012, 08:15 PM   #136 (permalink)
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Until the current bribery/extortion method of winning elections are changed, then nothing will be changed. The politicians are also people, this is the world that is and they act accordingly.

As previously posted: How would you fix US Economy?

"Get rid of the differential tax rate between earned income and capital income, it just causes gaming the system.

Progressive taxes evens up the playing field as the wealthy have undue influence in government. Progressive taxes also incentivizes the wealthy to support good governance as they have more to lose.

The main reason to support progressive taxation is reality, as voodoo economics doesn't work, progressive taxation does as our economy grows due to public investments and deficits remain manageable.

The externality of the "gas shocks" in the 70's was just a wake-up call that we were dependent on nonrenewal fuels, not that the economic system that got us out of the great depression didn't work.

Prosecute all members, including the CEOs of corporate members of ALEX (American Legislature Exchange) under RICO for conspiracy to pay and/or accept bribes, tax evasion and failure to register as a lobbyist.

Fixing the economy can't be done without first reforming political financing as this is the necessary first step to clean up the current extortion/bribery system."
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Old October 7th, 2012, 08:36 PM   #137 (permalink)
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Until the current bribery/extortion method of winning elections are changed, then nothing will be changed. The politicians are also people, this is the world that is and they act accordingly.

As previously posted: How would you fix US Economy?

"Get rid of the differential tax rate between earned income and capital income, it just causes gaming the system.

Progressive taxes evens up the playing field as the wealthy have undue influence in government. Progressive taxes also incentivizes the wealthy to support good governance as they have more to lose.

The main reason to support progressive taxation is reality, as voodoo economics doesn't work, progressive taxation does as our economy grows due to public investments and deficits remain manageable.

The externality of the "gas shocks" in the 70's was just a wake-up call that we were dependent on nonrenewal fuels, not that the economic system that got us out of the great depression didn't work.

Prosecute all members, including the CEOs of corporate members of ALEX (American Legislature Exchange) under RICO for conspiracy to pay and/or accept bribes, tax evasion and failure to register as a lobbyist.

Fixing the economy can't be done without first reforming political financing as this is the necessary first step to clean up the current extortion/bribery system."
In short, get rid of greed.

Reigning in the government is the biggest step, it should be a lean operation that is involved in the most basic of capacities, not the juggernaut it has become.

Raising taxes is still not the answer, making taxes fair is. Eliminate loopholes and bogus deductions like Dr.'s and Lawyers using the "equipment" deduction for vehicles over 6000lbs, the one that was meant for people like myself who have to have a large truck for work, farmers or companies purchasing heavy equipment or tractors, not so some elite snob can write off the full cost of his Hummer in the first year thereby getting a free vehicle on the taxpayers dime.

And as I said earlier, get rid of lobbyists and make politicians accountable for their actions. If they continue with the slap on the wrist mentality (like our current AG) then we the people are screwed. I will add at this point since I omitted earlier that we do need to get rid of financial interests in politics, but this does somewhat fall under eliminating lobbyists/lobbying.

The mentality that the wealthy should pay more than their fair share because, well, they're wealthy is a Robin Hood principle and completely unfair. No one will ever convince me that if I work hard to make money I should have to give up more of it in an un-proportional scale, in fact push comes to shove I will defend my rights with the promise of violence.

If you want fair taxation look in to the Fair Tax Proposal, while still not 100% perfect it is a far cry better than what we have now.
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Old October 7th, 2012, 09:14 PM   #138 (permalink)
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Do the wealthy really have undue influence in the government? I've heard this alleged over and over, but remain on the fence as to it's truthiness.
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Old October 7th, 2012, 10:53 PM   #139 (permalink)
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At best it's called cognitive capture, i.e., listening to only one side. These lobbyist pay for a lot of cognitive capture. Lobbying Database | OpenSecrets

These groups also pay for the bulk of campaign spending, which now need not be publicly reported.
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Old October 17th, 2012, 10:51 PM   #140 (permalink)
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Do the wealthy really have undue influence in the government? I've heard this alleged over and over, but remain on the fence as to it's truthiness.
Well they do own the politicians... It's not clear if the politicians have any influence over the government...
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Old October 20th, 2012, 03:45 AM   #141 (permalink)
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Do the wealthy really have undue influence in the government? I've heard this alleged over and over, but remain on the fence as to it's truthiness.
Look up ALEX for a start.
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Old October 22nd, 2012, 03:26 AM   #142 (permalink)
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... Reigning in the government is the biggest step, ...
Well, since in theory, the government is the government of the people, which needs to be reigned in, what replaces it, say ALEX ?
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Old October 22nd, 2012, 12:35 PM   #143 (permalink)
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What does the Alabama Learning Exchange have to do with this?
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Old October 22nd, 2012, 03:10 PM   #144 (permalink)
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ALEX=American Legislature Exchange. Domestic Propaganda
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