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Old January 5th, 2010, 07:30 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Now ALL of this I agree with. But I still disagree on your assessment of Obama and healthcare.
I suggest you watch the videos I posted in this thread:

The "Real Fall Of The Republic"

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Old January 5th, 2010, 07:40 AM   #52 (permalink)
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The fact that these people actually believe health care is a right and not a priveledge scare me. Health care, believe it or not takes money to advance. You don't find "miracle" cures by wishing on rainbows or saviours on unicorns, it takes research and engineering of the highest order. Guess what children, that means money, and lots of it.

Producing medicine on a large scale is also not something that your typical 7-11 attendant can manage either, more money, and lots of it.

This happy little dream world where everything is fair and nice and everybody loves each other (you know, the one the big "O" promoted to get elected) is simply not possible. By stripping away the benefits (benefits translates once again into that inconveniant money thing) of advancement in the interest of making things "fair" you eventually kill the chances that anybody will invest anything to advance that industry. Medical industry included.

What exactly do you cut to bring medical costs down as the great one has claimed so elequently that he do. Costs don't just magincally go away, something has to cut somewhere.

Doctor Pay? Yeah, that sounds like a good idea...they are way too rich anyway.

Drug engineering? Hmm, then we start to wine why we aren't curing things...

Less complicated medical machinery? We'll go back to leaches and weekly blood letting, those are cheap treatments....

It's a business people. Once you turn it into a charity for the poor poor downtrodden unfairly treated poor people that get spat on every day as they just try to make a way for themselves in this cruel cruel country (because people are always being turned away in emergency rooms), quality of health care will go right down the toilet. But then, everybody will get crappy treatment....so maybe that is fair, everybody gets to suffer and die at the same earlier time.
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Old January 5th, 2010, 07:54 AM   #53 (permalink)
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Nobody said healthcare is cheap. It's one of the UK government's biggest budgets. I'm not advocating the USA uses the UK model (the USA is too big to afford it) but I am saying that you need to do better for the poor and downtrodden in your society. (Not the the lazy of your society before you flame me). It could be done by having compulsory insurance for the employed and extending medicare to people on welfare. That will not destroy your business model - which I do understand is needed for investment in new medicines etc.

On another topic running in this thread: Just because the Mayan calendar does not go past 2012 does not mean that the world is going to end! That's just silly. It just means that they didn't plan any further ahead. Anyway, thier calendar outlived thier civilisation so the world has already 'ended' for them.
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Old January 5th, 2010, 07:55 AM   #54 (permalink)
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The fact that these people actually believe health care is a right and not a priveledge scare me. Health care, believe it or not takes money to advance. You don't find "miracle" cures by wishing on rainbows or saviours on unicorns, it takes research and engineering of the highest order. Guess what children, that means money, and lots of it.

Producing medicine on a large scale is also not something that your typical 7-11 attendant can manage either, more money, and lots of it.

This happy little dream world where everything is fair and nice and everybody loves each other (you know, the one the big "O" promoted to get elected) is simply not possible. By stripping away the benefits (benefits translates once again into that inconveniant money thing) of advancement in the interest of making things "fair" you eventually kill the chances that anybody will invest anything to advance that industry. Medical industry included.

What exactly do you cut to bring medical costs down as the great one has claimed so elequently that he do. Costs don't just magincally go away, something has to cut somewhere.

Doctor Pay? Yeah, that sounds like a good idea...they are way too rich anyway.

Drug engineering? Hmm, then we start to wine why we aren't curing things...

Less complicated medical machinery? We'll go back to leaches and weekly blood letting, those are cheap treatments....

It's a business people. Once you turn it into a charity for the poor poor downtrodden unfairly treated poor people that get spat on every day as they just try to make a way for themselves in this cruel cruel country (because people are always being turned away in emergency rooms), quality of health care will go right down the toilet. But then, everybody will get crappy treatment....so maybe that is fair, everybody gets to suffer and die at the same earlier time.
Finally someone who understands the reality of things. Thankyou for your post.
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Old January 5th, 2010, 08:07 AM   #55 (permalink)
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Nobody said healthcare is cheap. It's one of the UK government's biggest budgets. I'm not advocating the USA uses the UK model (the USA is too big to afford it) but I am saying that you need to do better for the poor and downtrodden in your society. (Not the the lazy of your society before you flame me). It could be done by having compulsory insurance for the employed and extending medicare to people on welfare. That will not destroy your business model - which I do understand is needed for investment in new medicines etc.

On another topic running in this thread: Just because the Mayan calendar does not go past 2012 does not mean that the world is going to end! That's just silly. It just means that they didn't plan any further ahead. Anyway, thier calendar outlived thier civilisation so the world has already 'ended' for them.
We *DO* have free clinics, and emergency care is always available at no upfront cost. And if someone can afford 15-20k in payments for a car, they can afford a 2k emergency room bill.
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Old January 5th, 2010, 09:07 AM   #56 (permalink)
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We *DO* have free clinics, and emergency care is always available at no upfront cost. And if someone can afford 15-20k in payments for a car, they can afford a 2k emergency room bill.
Actually that does not follow that they would have a spare 2K floating around BUT that person who can afford that 15-20K payment plan can afford health insurance. If they have not puchased any then they have thier priorities completely wrong and I personally would have no sympathy. That's why I said compulsory insurance for those in work and medicare for those on welfare. It can be done.

It's a question of priorities, personal priorities and national pririties.

Those who can look after themselves should do so. My argument is that there are people who through no fault of thier own need a helping hand. What's wrong with that?
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Old January 5th, 2010, 09:37 AM   #57 (permalink)
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And as for the UK, If the monarchy system is truly outdated, and electorates are voted in, why didn't they vote away the monarchy system?
They bring in millions thanks to their appeal to tourists. They're our version of Disneyland.

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And Socialism is the road to Communism. It is merely a transition.
Not quite. There have been many socialist governments across the world which haven't led to communist regimes.

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And another thing that irks me a bit, why does USA politics concern those of you that do not reside in the states so much?
Maybe because the US has so much influence on the rest of the world, so it is a concern? Maybe because some of us have an interest in events beyond the end of our own noses?

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Why stick your nose in things that you just don't belong in?
Right up to here you were doing just fine.

May I remind you that you posted in a public forum, which means that anyone is free to post? Not happy with that? Then don't post in a public forum!

Personally I have no intention of contributing to this so-called debate; I was simply correcting factual inaccuracies.
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Old January 5th, 2010, 09:44 AM   #58 (permalink)
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Here's a plan I fully support.

Its the Robin Williams Plan!

Robin Williams, wearing a shirt that says, 'I love New York ' in Arabic. You gotta love Robin Williams.... Even if he's nuts! Leave it to Robin Williams to come up with the perfect plan. What we need now is for our UN Ambassador to stand up and repeat this message.
Robin Williams' plan...(Hard to argue with this logic!)
'I see a lot of people yelling for peace, but I have not heard of a plan for peace. So, here's one plan.'
1) 'The US will apologize to the world for our 'interference' in their affairs, past & present. You know, Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Tojo, Noriega, Milosevic, Hussein, and the rest of those 'good 'ole' boys', we will never 'interfere' again.
2) We will withdraw our troops from all over the world, starting with Germany, South Korea, the Middle East, and the Philippines. They don't want us there. We would station troops at our borders. No one allowed sneaking through holes in the fence.
3) All illegal aliens have 90 days to get their affairs together and leave. We'll give them a free trip home. After 90 days, the remainder will be gathered up and deported immediately, regardless of whom or where they are. They're illegal!!! France will welcome them.
4) All future visitors will be thoroughly checked and limited to 90 days, unless given a special permit!!!! No one from a terrorist nation will be allowed in. If you don't like it there, change it yourself and don't hide here. Asylum would never be available to anyone. We don't need any more cab drivers or 7-11 cashiers.
5) No foreign 'students' over age 21. The older ones are the bombers. If they don't attend classes, they get a 'D' and it's back home, baby.
6) The U.S. will make a strong effort to become self-sufficient energy wise. This will include developing nonpolluting sources of energy but will require a temporary drilling of oil in the Alaskan wilderness. The caribou will have to cope for a while.
7) Offer Saudi Arabia and other oil producing countries $10 a barrel for their oil. If they don't like it, we go someplace else. They can go somewhere else to sell their production. (About a week of the wells filling up the storage sites would be enough.)
8) If there is a famine or other natural catastrophe in the world, we will not 'interfere.' They can pray to Allah or whomever, for seeds, rain, cement, or whatever they need. Besides most of what we give them is stolen or given to the army. The people who need it most get very little, if anything.
9) Ship the UN Headquarters to an isolated island someplace. We don't need the spies and fair weather friends here. Besides, the building would make a good homeless shelter or lockup for illegal aliens.
10) All Americans must go to charm and beauty school. That way, no one can call us 'Ugly Americans' any longer. The Language we speak is ENGLISH...learn it...or LEAVE.... Now, isn't that a winner of a plan?
'The Statue of Liberty is no longer saying 'Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses.' She's got a baseball bat and she's yelling, 'You want a piece of me?'
If you agree with the above, forward it to friends... If not, and I would be amazed, DELETE it!!

And this is relevant, I actually run a facebook group just for this purpose.

Take back our country! Take Back Our JOBS! Protect the Consitution! | Facebook

snopes.com: Robin Williams' Peace Plan
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Old January 5th, 2010, 09:51 AM   #59 (permalink)
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And who are you to naysay/dismiss someone's religion? If you don't believe, then fine don't, but don't put down someone's beliefs because you don't have faith. Even Eienstien believed in God, and he was undoubtedly the smartest man that ever walked on the planet.
OK, maybe signing "Mephistopheles" was laying it on a bit thick. But it doesn't take much reasoning sense to see the contradiction in worrying about Obama when your religion already tells you the world will end in 2012.

And regarding Einstein, you made a very funny choice of people and statements. Superlative much? Einstein, while very smart, was likely not the smartest man that ever walked the planet. Einstein believed in a very different notion of god than that in which Christians believe. Not that smart people don't believe in gods, many do.
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Old January 5th, 2010, 11:30 AM   #60 (permalink)
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OK, maybe signing "Mephistopheles" was laying it on a bit thick. But it doesn't take much reasoning sense to see the contradiction in worrying about Obama when your religion already tells you the world will end in 2012.
Which religion states that the world will end in 2012? None that I can think of so please tell.
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Old January 5th, 2010, 11:59 AM   #61 (permalink)
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Holy Moly, politics AND religion in one thread....we really are trying to make freinds here aren't we?

I think I'm going to check out at this point, while it has been suprisingly civil up to this point, I can see it taking a turn for the worse soon.
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Old January 5th, 2010, 12:31 PM   #62 (permalink)
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To the OP, glad to see there are some people who know what is going on.
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Old January 5th, 2010, 12:33 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Which religion states that the world will end in 2012? None that I can think of so please tell.
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It's a perfect storm that must be making Lennin do handsprings in his grave! He would say it's a "God deal" miracle, except that before standing in front of his maker he didn't believe in that dusty old book of legends and old wives tales, you know -- the Bible -- which predicts something like this will happen before the end comes. 2012 anyone?

For the last time, I made no judgment on any particular religion. I was just noting the rather silly contradiction in worrying about the president if "the end" is coming.
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Old January 5th, 2010, 01:22 PM   #64 (permalink)
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All Obama has done is serve us a huge bill of goods. He has barely been able to make any side happy with anything, and this includes those who are for and against government healthcare, *** rights organizations, anti-abortion activists, and others. This supposed era of Hope and Change is turning out to be an era of Alienation and Deceit. I agree, to a point, that both sides are to blame for a lot of what has happened in this country, but the democrats are the ones fighting for more government control, while republicans understand, with the current shady practices within the government, that government control is the exact opposite of what we need. Obama says he wants to end the war; he sends in 30k more troops. He tries to bring in a member of his staff with previous ties to Castro and his regime. And our border policies are some of the poorest ever. Closing Gitmo was also a huge mistake, in that many americans believe it acceptable to do whatever is required to protect our country, me included. What is the proper way of handling a person or persons responsible for terrorism on our land? Shall we hold there hands back to their leaders. Absolutely not. Barack Obama is one of the great failures of our nation, and I say this as a black man who is surrounded by family members who think that I am basically the anti-christ. But in all seriousness, something must be done.
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Old January 5th, 2010, 01:23 PM   #65 (permalink)
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For the last time, I made no judgment on any particular religion. I was just noting the rather silly contradiction in worrying about the president if "the end" is coming.
And like TheBrit said? Where, exactly, does it say in the bible that the world is going to end in 2012?

I haven't seen it. Must have missed that part.

In any of my posts I do not recall advocating the end of the world by 2012.

And sorry if I offended you about the sticking your nose where it doesn't belong thing, thats just my *personal* opinion, and while I myself like to be informed, I believe my political opinion doesn't belong outside that of the United States, as that is the only one that affects me. Although sadly we ARE headed towards the dreaded one-world government. So that statement may be moot.
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Old January 5th, 2010, 01:43 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Obama has basically done nothing since he's been in office ...
Well, you're right when it comes to proving he is constitutionally qualified to serve as President -- then again his legal team has been very busy doing everything possible on his behalf to successfully cover up his past.

But anyone must admit it's more than nothing to:
==> Reverse the Mexico City policy right off that kept our tax dollars from going to international groups that push abortion.
==> Exaggerate the economic crisis to purposefully scare Americans into quickly and blindly accepting trillion dollar bailouts that he swore had no earmarks but in reality fulfilled deprived arch liberals' decade-long wish list.
==> Drop the term “enemy combatants” for “Gitmo detainees,” replacing the term “terrorism” with “man-made disasters" and “global war on terror” with “Overseas Contingency Operations.” Goodness, he suspended the military trials. (And after bowing and apologizing around the globe, he's intend on sending avowed terrorists back to Yemen, the new hotbed.)
==> Lie to first rush and finally ram ObamaCare through Congress over the outcry of a majority of Americans, again using a feigned urgent need to "reform health care" as a means to pass unread legislation and thus coerce unconstitutional socialism.

And that's just the first few months. Google it yourself if you can stand more. Wait until you see and fully realize the facts mainstream media isn't reporting.

Funny how some think because leftists out-and-out lied and exagerated about President George W. Bush that the American people must also be as dishonest and surely be making far too much over the first time in U.S. history that both the White House and Congress absolutely are refusing to listen to the majority of those they're sworn to serve.

But, hey, I love my HTC Hero. And I like this forum, so this is (probably) my last post in this thread. There are better places to discuss these issues. But Iowa, I'm glad you brought it up and got some people thinking.
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Old January 5th, 2010, 02:00 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Well, you're right when it comes to proving he is constitutionally qualified to serve as President -- then again his legal team has been very busy doing everything possible on his behalf to successfully cover up his past.

But anyone must admit it's more than nothing to:
==> Reverse the Mexico City policy right off that kept our tax dollars from going to international groups that push abortion.
==> Exaggerate the economic crisis to purposefully scare Americans into quickly and blindly accepting trillion dollar bailouts that he swore had no earmarks but in reality fulfilled deprived arch liberals' decade-long wish list.
==> Drop the term “enemy combatants” for “Gitmo detainees,” replacing the term “terrorism” with “man-made disasters" and “global war on terror” with “Overseas Contingency Operations.” Goodness, he suspended the military trials. (And after bowing and apologizing around the globe, he's intend on sending avowed terrorists back to Yemen, the new hotbed.)
==> Lie to first rush and finally ram ObamaCare through Congress over the outcry of a majority of Americans, again using a feigned urgent need to "reform health care" as a means to pass unread legislation and thus coerce unconstitutional socialism.

And that's just the first few months. Google it yourself if you can stand more. Wait until you see and fully realize the facts mainstream media isn't reporting.

Funny how some think because leftists out-and-out lied and exagerated about President George W. Bush that the American people must also be as dishonest and surely be making far too much over the first time in U.S. history that both the White House and Congress absolutely are refusing to listen to the majority of those they're sworn to serve.

But, hey, I love my HTC Hero. And I like this forum, so this is (probably) my last post in this thread. There are better places to discuss these issues. But Iowa, I'm glad you brought it up and got some people thinking.
Mr. HolyGhost writer, I would like to assure you that you are misunderstanding a lot, but I am sure that your "God" has explicitly told you otherwise. Again, if you really believe that the end of times are near, your time is better served praying. I hope you like wherever it is that you end up.
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Old January 5th, 2010, 02:06 PM   #68 (permalink)
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I'll repeat the question for Revrusty because he needs to answer it (after reading Matthew 25 verse 31 to the end if he takes the Bible seriously):

Those who can look after themselves should do so. My argument is that there are people who through no fault of thier own need a helping hand. What's wrong with that?

Revrusty, you should also ask yourself if you are a sheep or a goat.
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Old January 5th, 2010, 02:12 PM   #69 (permalink)
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And like TheBrit said? Where, exactly, does it say in the bible that the world is going to end in 2012?

I haven't seen it. Must have missed that part.

In any of my posts I do not recall advocating the end of the world by 2012.

And sorry if I offended you about the sticking your nose where it doesn't belong thing, thats just my *personal* opinion, and while I myself like to be informed, I believe my political opinion doesn't belong outside that of the United States, as that is the only one that affects me. Although sadly we ARE headed towards the dreaded one-world government. So that statement may be moot.
Sorry if you are so offended by any statement that you interpret as critical of your religion that you are forced to misunderstanding my point. The quote was not attributed to you, so make what you will of that. I do not intend to make it any clearer. Either you understand the contradiction that I described or you don't.
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Old January 5th, 2010, 02:43 PM   #70 (permalink)
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I'll repeat the question for Revrusty because he needs to answer it (after reading Matthew 25 verse 31 to the end if he takes the Bible seriously):

Those who can look after themselves should do so. My argument is that there are people who through no fault of thier own need a helping hand. What's wrong with that?

Revrusty, you should also ask yourself if you are a sheep or a goat.
There is no problem with charity, and there are plenty of them. And like I said, there *are* indeed free clinics, and alot of options for those without coverage, it just takes the will to get it done.
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Old January 5th, 2010, 02:57 PM   #71 (permalink)
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I'll repeat the question for Revrusty because he needs to answer it (after reading Matthew 25 verse 31 to the end if he takes the Bible seriously):

Those who can look after themselves should do so. My argument is that there are people who through no fault of thier own need a helping hand. What's wrong with that?

Revrusty, you should also ask yourself if you are a sheep or a goat.
Do you mean forced redistribution of wealth: From those, according to their ability, to those, according to their need, as Marx urged in defining Communism?

If you want to get personal, please know this: Since being fired for Jesus' sake from a good-paying corporate job with great benefits, I've followed the Lord for little pay and certainly no medical insurance. I've often needed a helping hand medically, including some surgical procedures, yet have never suffered for being uninsured. Others even worse off financially in those waiting rooms were cared for, too. There is no REAL crisis, although it would be good to have tort reform and work with the drub companies, legislative things that can easily be done short of full-fledged socialism.

I need to say one thing more, then I will disappear here again (wasn't gone long, was I?) It ultimately is the church's fault for creating the healthcare vacuum that government is stomping in to fill. God wants His people to provide loving care, not money-minded bureaucrats on "death panels." I know several churches that not only feed and clothe the poor but provide medical care and medicines as well. Unfortunately, they are way too few.

Adios.
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Old January 5th, 2010, 03:17 PM   #72 (permalink)
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I don't care who you are ... Democrat, Republican, or Independent ... liberal or conservative ... blue state or red state ... you have to be appalled at the sheer gall of this woman!





This is QUEEN PELOSI'S NEW JET!!! And the Democrats talk about Sarah's dresses???
Queen Pelosi wasn't happy with the small USAF C-20B jet, Gulfstream III, that comes with the Speaker's job ... OH NO! Queen Pelosi was aggravated that this little jet had to stop to refuel, so she ordered a Big Fat, 200-seat, USAF C-32, Boeing 757 jet that could get her back to California without stopping! I understand that a former Speaker of the House, Newt Gingrich, flew commerical most of the time.
Many, many legislators walked by and grinned with glee as Joe informed everyone of what Queen Nancy's Big Fat Jet costs us, the hard working American tax payers, literally thousands of gallons of fuel every week.
Since she only works 3 days a week, this gas guzzling jet gets fueled and she flies home to California every Friday and returns every Monday, at a cost to the taxpayers (YOU and ME are those taxpayers!) of about $60,000, one way!
As Joe put it ..."unfortunately we have to pay to bring her back on Monday night and that costs us another $60,000!" Taxpayers, that is $480,000 per month and that is an annual cost to us of $5,760,000!!!
No wonder she complains about the cost of this war ... it might cramp her style and she is styling on my back and yours. I think of the military families in this country doing without and this woman, who heads up the most do-nothing Congress in the history of our country, keeps fueling that jet while doing nothing.
Queen Pelosi wants you and me to conserve our carbon footprint. She wants us to buy smaller cars and Obama wants us to get a bicycle pump and air up our tires. Who do these people think they are??? Their motto is ... Don't do as I do ... JUST DO AS I SAY!
Keep in mind the figures above do NOT include the cost of plane or crew ... just the fuel!!! One has to wonder what the total package costs us?
And on top of that ... now she wants to tax our IRA's & 401K's!

HAPPY HAPPY JOY JOY!!
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Old January 5th, 2010, 04:15 PM   #73 (permalink)
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And sorry if I offended you about the sticking your nose where it doesn't belong thing
Iirc that was in response to a post from me, so I'd just like to say that I was in no way offended.

It's discussions like this that prove, despite a common language and shared history, just how disparate our two nations are. Your definitions of and associations with certain terms are completely different to those accepted over here, which is why I'd never presume to get involved in the debate - I'd find it too confusing. This isn't a criticism either, just another example of how cultures naturally vary.
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Old January 5th, 2010, 04:25 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bigdroid View Post
I don't care who you are ... Democrat, Republican, or Independent ... liberal or conservative ... blue state or red state ... you have to be appalled at the sheer gall of this woman!





This is QUEEN PELOSI'S NEW JET!!! And the Democrats talk about Sarah's dresses???
Queen Pelosi wasn't happy with the small USAF C-20B jet, Gulfstream III, that comes with the Speaker's job ... OH NO! Queen Pelosi was aggravated that this little jet had to stop to refuel, so she ordered a Big Fat, 200-seat, USAF C-32, Boeing 757 jet that could get her back to California without stopping! I understand that a former Speaker of the House, Newt Gingrich, flew commerical most of the time.
Many, many legislators walked by and grinned with glee as Joe informed everyone of what Queen Nancy's Big Fat Jet costs us, the hard working American tax payers, literally thousands of gallons of fuel every week.
Since she only works 3 days a week, this gas guzzling jet gets fueled and she flies home to California every Friday and returns every Monday, at a cost to the taxpayers (YOU and ME are those taxpayers!) of about $60,000, one way!
As Joe put it ..."unfortunately we have to pay to bring her back on Monday night and that costs us another $60,000!" Taxpayers, that is $480,000 per month and that is an annual cost to us of $5,760,000!!!
No wonder she complains about the cost of this war ... it might cramp her style and she is styling on my back and yours. I think of the military families in this country doing without and this woman, who heads up the most do-nothing Congress in the history of our country, keeps fueling that jet while doing nothing.
Queen Pelosi wants you and me to conserve our carbon footprint. She wants us to buy smaller cars and Obama wants us to get a bicycle pump and air up our tires. Who do these people think they are??? Their motto is ... Don't do as I do ... JUST DO AS I SAY!
Keep in mind the figures above do NOT include the cost of plane or crew ... just the fuel!!! One has to wonder what the total package costs us?
And on top of that ... now she wants to tax our IRA's & 401K's!

HAPPY HAPPY JOY JOY!!
I would be outraged if this were true, but it's not. Please try a little fact checking: snopes.com: Nancy Pelosi's Jet
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Old January 5th, 2010, 04:30 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Do you mean forced redistribution of wealth: From those, according to their ability, to those, according to their need, as Marx urged in defining Communism?

If you want to get personal, please know this: Since being fired for Jesus' sake from a good-paying corporate job with great benefits, I've followed the Lord for little pay and certainly no medical insurance. I've often needed a helping hand medically, including some surgical procedures, yet have never suffered for being uninsured. Others even worse off financially in those waiting rooms were cared for, too. There is no REAL crisis, although it would be good to have tort reform and work with the drub companies, legislative things that can easily be done short of full-fledged socialism.

I need to say one thing more, then I will disappear here again (wasn't gone long, was I?) It ultimately is the church's fault for creating the healthcare vacuum that government is stomping in to fill. God wants His people to provide loving care, not money-minded bureaucrats on "death panels." I know several churches that not only feed and clothe the poor but provide medical care and medicines as well. Unfortunately, they are way too few.

Adios.
Lucky you. Not only did you recieve the medical care you needed, you managed to get it without being destroyed financially. Meanwhile real research suggests that the leading cause of bankruptcy in this country is medical cost: Study Links Medical Costs and Personal Bankruptcy - BusinessWeek
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Old January 5th, 2010, 05:53 PM   #76 (permalink)
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Do you mean forced redistribution of wealth: From those, according to their ability, to those, according to their need, as Marx urged in defining Communism?
Er...no. Where did that come from?

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Originally Posted by Revrusty View Post
...although it would be good to have tort reform and work with the drub companies, legislative things that can easily be done short of full-fledged socialism.
Kind of what I have been saying elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by Revrusty View Post
I need to say one thing more, then I will disappear here again (wasn't gone long, was I?) It ultimately is the church's fault for creating the healthcare vacuum that government is stomping in to fill. God wants His people to provide loving care, not money-minded bureaucrats on "death panels." I know several churches that not only feed and clothe the poor but provide medical care and medicines as well. Unfortunately, they are way too few.

Adios.
What are these "Death Panels" you speak of? Maybe that did happen in the communist Soviet Union - I don't know - but this I do know: nothing like that exists in the UK.
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Old January 5th, 2010, 05:59 PM   #77 (permalink)
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I would be outraged if this were true, but it's not. Please try a little fact checking: snopes.com: Nancy Pelosi's Jet
Me too: I love Snopes.com

Guys, can we at least try to get our facts straight. Snopes is a great resource and does not just debunk - it also confirms where true such as the anti-christian basis of The Golden Compass etc.
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Old January 5th, 2010, 06:36 PM   #78 (permalink)
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Iirc that was in response to a post from me, so I'd just like to say that I was in no way offended.

It's discussions like this that prove, despite a common language and shared history, just how disparate our two nations are. Your definitions of and associations with certain terms are completely different to those accepted over here, which is why I'd never presume to get involved in the debate - I'd find it too confusing. This isn't a criticism either, just another example of how cultures naturally vary.
Agreed. Like I know what we call an 'Elevator' you call it a lift? Or escalator?

And what we call an escalator you call something else as well.
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Old January 5th, 2010, 06:55 PM   #79 (permalink)
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An escalator is moving steps for lazy people. A lift is what you call an elevator.

The ground floor is what you call the first floor and the first floor is what you call the second floor.

On to body parts...on second thoughts don't go there.
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Old January 6th, 2010, 12:32 AM   #80 (permalink)
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Ever notice how when people don't understand a phenomenon they put some unrealistic label on it?
Osama? Socialist? Savior?
yeah, just like bush and cheny were labled Hitler, etc.... Dems are even better at it than conservatives, because they get the media to quote and repeat their mantra...
Quote:
Clearly you don't understand what is going on here. Our country has a number of very large issues that it needs to deal with. Health Care costs, Education, Energy policy, and the national debt to name a few. For the last several presidencies these issues have been ignored. Obama has stated a clear intent to address these issues. That is the appeal. No doubt it will be done imperfectly, but he is willing to try.
and he's done NOTHING on these issues, except to say he's against earmarks while signing a bill with billions of earmarks... The road to HELL is paved with good intentions...


Quote:
The electorate doesn't believe that Obama is any sort of "savior" and the electorate doesn't want "socialism" (despite for some very backwards opportunists, there is zero reason to question his faith). The case has been made that we have problems to address and opportunities to pursue. The electorate agrees with this case.
He was elected by black americans by a margin not much greater than george bush by the way. Bush's election was called "stolen", Obama's a "mandate" by the media... hmm.. can we say the media are in the hot-tub with Obama???

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I am amazed at how effectively Reagan pulled the wool over the conservatives eyes.

Reagan is given credit for ending the cold war, when it was effectively over before he took office.
I call bullshit. Prove what you say or go home. Yes, russia was collapsing, but only because conservatives in the senate - even during Carter's crappy reign - kept up defense spending and kept Europe fortified...
Quote:
Reagan started the policy of raiding the SS trust fund
False. You obviously have less understanding of the constitution than a gnat has of the meaning of life. CONGRESS (all democrats, back then...) raided social security to pay for their socialist programs in spite of the budget cuts that Regan wanted...
Quote:
Reagan oversaw the sale of arm to our enemies (and got to duck the charge because he either lied or was so unfit for office that he no longer remembered what he did from day to day --take your pick)
Um, the Contra's fought AGAINST the communist Sandinistas...

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Be very careful if you want to criticize Americas healthcare system. I grew up in Austria and experienced their system which is pretty close to the UKs from what I understand.And I assure you its terrible compared to ours.
TRUTH! Thank you for speaking the TRUTH! For every person who says a great thing about 'government run healthcare', I'm sure there are 5 who had a bad one...

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He's Godzilla to America's Tokyo, romping and stomping as fast as he can before the mind-warped public finally catches on -- and he's betting everything on that being too late for him to be stopped.
Love that analogy.
He's Godzilla, and our CONSTITUTION is tokyo... He's ignoring it as much as possible... Putting verbiage in a bill that makes it "repeal proof"?? Really? Can you say "not constitutional" to even consider such a provision??


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Agreed. We need a 3rd, or even 4th party. Or abandon the parties altogether, and be all independents.
I consider myself a Constitutional Libertarian.
I support organizations like:



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Originally Posted by TheBrit View Post
Nobody said healthcare is cheap. It's one of the UK government's biggest budgets. I'm not advocating the USA uses the UK model (the USA is too big to afford it) but I am saying that you need to do better for the poor and downtrodden in your society. (Not the the lazy of your society before you flame me). It could be done by having compulsory insurance for the employed and extending medicare to people on welfare. That will not destroy your business model - which I do understand is needed for investment in new medicines etc.
Disabled and unable to care for themselves = yes, deserving of charity.
Everyone else? **** off. Get your damn hand out of my wallet.

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Er...no. Where did that come from?


Kind of what I have been saying elsewhere.


What are these "Death Panels" you speak of? Maybe that did happen in the communist Soviet Union - I don't know - but this I do know: nothing like that exists in the UK.
You sure as shit have them in UK... Committees that say how much can be spent to save a persons life at a certain age... They exist, and they determine that, if you get sick at 70, good luck with that.
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Old January 6th, 2010, 05:32 AM   #81 (permalink)
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Ah yes, the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence - not perfect but certainly not a Death Panel. They do determine cost effectiveness and do sometimes get it wrong - very wrong but the notion about being on your own if you are over 70 is a myth peddled by vested interest in the USA when they argue against reform.
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Old January 6th, 2010, 06:05 AM   #82 (permalink)
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I dont know. I cannot read when a website has a "lounge" area and things like politics and religion are discussed. I'd rather go to a site that is specifically for that purpose and topic. The reason our economy sucks is because politicians spend out money lousily. Dont blame anyone but yourself. WE ELECT EVERYONE.

There. Now I am a participant.
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Old January 6th, 2010, 06:17 AM   #83 (permalink)
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I've read threw most of these threads, and I just have a few impartial questions, because frankly guys, he's our President for the next 3 years, deal with it.

One year ago, President Obama stated that healthcare discussions in the House and Senate would be open door, and broadly displayed on CSPAN. Why is this not the case?

President Obama stated during his state of address that Healthcare would not be offered to illegal immigrants, but it is, in the latest iteration of the healthcare bill. Why is this?

Why do I lay restless in my bed everynight wondering if I'm going to be able to afford my healthcare after this new bill is passed? Everything I've heard so far about the bill affecting the middle class has been that our premiums will rise, with no increase in benefits.

I work hard for my family, and I enjoy the nice things that I am able to afford with that hard work. I pay an incredible amount of taxes living in Massachusetts. Income Tax, excise tax, property tax, town sales tax, state sales tax, etc. Now, supposedly, I'm going to have to pay even more for healthcare, for people who are undeserving of it.

People in this this thread claim that there are "rights" for people. Why should healthcare be one of those? In the 14 places that I've lived, there has ALWAYS been a free healthcare clinic. Why is it that people who cannot afford healthcare, go to these clinics? The healthcare bill benefits the least desirable people (i.e., illegal aliens, people skirting employment, welfare, etc.). Legitimate people who do not have healthcare are already covered under local State insurance policies currently. Of course if you're an illegal, you may have issues using those benefits.

----------

Despite all of the Obama bashing by other folks, these are all issues that have plagued our country for the last decade primarily. Our country has over extended it's hand to the rest of the world, without cleaning it's own house. The term "don't defecate where you sleep" is very applicable to our current times. I just believe we're tackling those issues in the wrong way. The sad state of affairs is, the Democrats are going to railroad as much legislation they can in the next 3 years, with provisions not allowing them to be revoked. Wait and see, you will see the most wide changing liberal policies invoked before President Obama is out of office, not because of him, but because "it's pay back".
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Old January 6th, 2010, 10:35 AM   #84 (permalink)
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yeah, just like bush and cheny were labled Hitler, etc.... Dems are even better at it than conservatives, because they get the media to quote and repeat their mantra...
Everyone is more sensitive when their guy gets piled on. While extremests may have labeled your heroes as such, I recall no such statements from my liberal friends. My response was to labels applied in this thread.

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and he's done NOTHING on these issues, except to say he's against earmarks while signing a bill with billions of earmarks... The road to HELL is paved with good intentions...
Wrong. He has taken action that you disagree with. However you disagree that he should take action, so if you think that he's done nothing, be happy.

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He was elected by black americans by a margin not much greater than george bush by the way. Bush's election was called "stolen", Obama's a "mandate" by the media... hmm.. can we say the media are in the hot-tub with Obama???
The pointless point. Even a conservative newspaper like The Wall Street Journal notes that Obama's victory was "decisive": Obama Sweeps to Historic Victory - WSJ.com

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I call bullshit. Prove what you say or go home. Yes, russia was collapsing, but only because conservatives in the senate - even during Carter's crappy reign - kept up defense spending and kept Europe fortified...
Call bull and than agree. Nice flip flop. I said Reagan, not "conservatives in the senate".

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False. You obviously have less understanding of the constitution than a gnat has of the meaning of life. CONGRESS (all democrats, back then...) raided social security to pay for their socialist programs in spite of the budget cuts that Regan wanted...
Ha Ha. This was proposed by Reagan's budget director. You are right enough in that congress went along with it.

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Um, the Contra's fought AGAINST the communist Sandinistas...
Reread your history. (Hint: There are two countries implied in Iran-Contra and more involved...)
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Old January 6th, 2010, 01:48 PM   #85 (permalink)
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A more honest analysis of the "victory mandate" of obama is this: A charming young man running against a Republican party debilitated by its association with an unpopular war and a politically toxic incumbent won a solid 7-point victory nationally. He sounded reasonable and moderate, and won for his party something important, if not necessarily epoch-making: a chance to govern after the other side had blown it.

The media were complict:

The three broadcast networks treated Obama to nearly seven times more good press than bad — 462 positive stories (34% of the total), compared with only 70 stories (just 5%) that were critical.

NBC Nightly News was the most lopsided, with 179 pro-Obama reports (37%), more than ten times the number of anti-Obama stories (17, or 3%). The CBS Evening News was nearly as skewed, with 156 stories spun in favor of Obama (38%), compared to a mere 21 anti-Obama reports (5%). ABC's World News was the least slanted, but still tilted roughly four-to-one in Obama's favor (127 stories to 32, or 27% to 7%).

Barack Obama received his best press when it mattered most, as he debuted on the national scene. All of the networks lavished him with praise when he was keynote speaker at the 2004 Democratic Convention, and did not produce a single negative story about Obama (out of 81 total reports) prior to the start of his presidential campaign in early 2007.

The networks downplayed or ignored major Obama gaffes and scandals. Obama's relationship with convicted influence peddler Tony Rezko was the subject of only two full reports (one each on ABC and NBC) and mentioned in just 15 other stories. CBS and NBC also initially downplayed controversial statements from Obama's longtime pastor Jeremiah Wright, but heavily praised Obama's March 18 speech on race relations.

While Obama's worst media coverage came during the weeks leading up to the Pennsylvania primary on April 22, even then the networks offered two positive stories for every one that carried a negative spin (21% to 9%). Obama's best press of the year came after he won the North Carolina primary on May 6 — after that, 43 percent of stories were favorable to Obama, compared to just one percent that were critical.

The networks minimized Obama's liberal ideology, only referring to him as a "liberal" 14 times in four years. In contrast, reporters found twice as many occasions (29) to refer to Obama as either a "rock star," "rising star" or "superstar" during the same period.

In covering the campaign, network reporters highlighted voters who offered favorable opinions about Obama. Of 147 average citizens who expressed an on-camera opinion about Obama, 114 (78%) were pro-Obama, compared to just 28 (19%) that had a negative view, with the remaining five offering a mixed opinion.

Nothing like having your very own PRAVDA, Eh Mr. President?

And many were racially motivated, according to PEW research analysis of the numbers...:At the same time, there is little doubt that Obama's race was a factor in bringing out large numbers of new African American voters to the polls. Blacks made up a larger share of the electorate in 2008 (13%) than they did in 2004 (11%) or 2000 (10%), and they supported Obama at higher rates than they did either Kerry or Gore. Black Americans voted for Obama 95% to 4% for McCain. (and they call white folks racist!)
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Old January 6th, 2010, 02:31 PM   #86 (permalink)
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A more honest analysis of the "victory mandate" of obama is this: ...
Another tip that most of us learn in 5th grade or so: If you are going to use someone else's words, it is considered good form to cite the reference. In fact not doing so is called plagerism.


To the content, complaining about a lack of balance comes off as whining. Balance occurs, on the whole, where statistically independent events of equal likelyhood and frequency are measured. That assumption does not apply here, so it is not surprising to see a lack of balance.
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Old January 6th, 2010, 06:35 PM   #87 (permalink)
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Too many kool aid drinking conservatives around here. Nothings ticks me off more than people who fight for others to keep more of their "Hard earned millions" as if these people really care about them.

Wake up! It is the politicians job to see that rich people can legally rob us. And Texans got over a hundred billion out of the Iraq war and that's why the economy is so good there right now.
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Old January 6th, 2010, 07:35 PM   #88 (permalink)
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Too many kool aid drinking conservatives around here. Nothings ticks me off more than people who fight for others to keep more of their "Hard earned millions" as if these people really care about them.

I'm with you on that. It's pretty ridiculous in this thread
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Old January 6th, 2010, 11:04 PM   #89 (permalink)
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And Texans got over a hundred billion out of the Iraq war and that's why the economy is so good there right now.
Yeah, it has nothing to do with the fact that the majority of the U.S. refining capacity is in Texas, not to mention a large chunk of the oil & natural gas production, a very large agricultural diversity, tremendous cattle ranching enterprise, high tech industry, etc., etc. Nope, we got our money from the Iraq war...
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Old January 6th, 2010, 11:05 PM   #90 (permalink)
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Another tip that most of us learn in 5th grade or so: If you are going to use someone else's words, it is considered good form to cite the reference. In fact not doing so is called plagerism.


To the content, complaining about a lack of balance comes off as whining. Balance occurs, on the whole, where statistically independent events of equal likelyhood and frequency are measured. That assumption does not apply here, so it is not surprising to see a lack of balance.
So wait, your advocating that wealthy people deserve to be pubished for being successful? If that was the case, half the inventions we have wouldn't exist, probably even your phone. People would have no reason to be innovative or successful bc they would just get it taken away. So what would be the point? When people like you post things like that it just shows that little green eyed monster inside of you. The better question is... why do you or others deserve someone elses money? What did you do for it? If you want millions quit being lazy and invent something. There are self made millionaires every day.
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Old January 6th, 2010, 11:40 PM   #91 (permalink)
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Another tip that most of us learn in 5th grade or so: If you are going to use someone else's words, it is considered good form to cite the reference. In fact not doing so is called plagerism.
Thought I had linked it.. but obviously you found the reference anyway...
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Old January 7th, 2010, 12:08 AM   #92 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by rjoudrey View Post
Too many kool aid drinking conservatives around here. Nothings ticks me off more than people who fight for others to keep more of their "Hard earned millions" as if these people really care about them.

Wake up! It is the politicians job to see that rich people can legally rob us. And Texans got over a hundred billion out of the Iraq war and that's why the economy is so good there right now.
Oh, don't act like the libs aren't drinking the kool-aid too. Acussing either side of the aisle of trespasses is merely the pot calling the kettle black. Until you see this you know nothing of politics.

btw in case of shtf-day I'm moving to texas.
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Old January 7th, 2010, 06:52 AM   #93 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by IOWA View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkeyK
Another tip that most of us learn in 5th grade or so: If you are going to use someone else's words, it is considered good form to cite the reference. In fact not doing so is called plagerism.


To the content, complaining about a lack of balance comes off as whining. Balance occurs, on the whole, where statistically independent events of equal likelyhood and frequency are measured. That assumption does not apply here, so it is not surprising to see a lack of balance.
So wait, your advocating that wealthy people deserve to be pubished for being successful? If that was the case, half the inventions we have wouldn't exist, probably even your phone. People would have no reason to be innovative or successful bc they would just get it taken away. So what would be the point? When people like you post things like that it just shows that little green eyed monster inside of you. The better question is... why do you or others deserve someone elses money? What did you do for it? If you want millions quit being lazy and invent something. There are self made millionaires every day.
I think that you quoted the wrong post.
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Old January 7th, 2010, 06:53 AM   #94 (permalink)
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Thought I had linked it.. but obviously you found the reference anyway...
It's still plagerism till you attribute the source. And as far as I can tell, it seems to come from a few sources.
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Old January 7th, 2010, 07:21 AM   #95 (permalink)
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I think that you quoted the wrong post.
Ha lol ur right
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Old January 11th, 2010, 01:07 AM   #96 (permalink)
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More proof of obamas communism

Behold... obamacare

Little gems from the Health Care Bill

After reading that... how could you support this loon.

I call treason
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Old January 11th, 2010, 05:57 AM   #97 (permalink)
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This is why I hate the 2 party system. It divides people down a ridiculously black and white line when that is not how the world works.
Truest statement in the thread
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Old January 11th, 2010, 06:05 AM   #98 (permalink)
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Paved highways are a privilege, not a right.
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Old January 11th, 2010, 07:10 AM   #99 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by InstantKarma View Post
Paved highways are a privilege, not a right.
arguably the federal highway system is constitutional. How it's handled, managed, taxed, etc; well, not so much.
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Old January 11th, 2010, 10:13 AM   #100 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by IOWA View Post
More proof of obamas communism

Behold... obamacare

Little gems from the Health Care Bill

After reading that... how could you support this loon.

I call treason
I call stupidity. Sorry, there is no other explanation for calling "treason" based on a chain e-mail message that you can't even bother to verify.
Twenty-six Lies About H.R. 3200 | FactCheck.org

Grow some integrity.

Whenever something seems completely ridiculous, one should feel compelled to verify it before repeating it.
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