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Old January 11th, 2010, 10:49 AM   #101 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MonkeyK View Post
I call stupidity. Sorry, there is no other explanation for calling "treason" based on a chain e-mail message that you can't even bother to verify.
Twenty-six Lies About H.R. 3200 | FactCheck.org

Grow some integrity.

Whenever something seems completely ridiculous, one should feel compelled to verify it before repeating it.
I hope nobody uses this thread as a source of information because it's full of biased, unverified sources. Almost everything I've read in this thread has a site that debunks it. Researching your sources, while not apparent in this thread, is actually important if you want truthful information.

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Old January 11th, 2010, 02:46 PM   #102 (permalink)
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So providing basic healthcare to the poor who could not otherwise afford it is communism is it?

I'm done with this thread.
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Old January 11th, 2010, 03:14 PM   #103 (permalink)
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So providing basic healthcare to the poor who could not otherwise afford it is communism is it?

I'm done with this thread.
Charities used to do this. It's not the governments job.

Taking money for the direct benefit of another person is theft. It's imoral to force ME to pay for your abortion; just as it's immoral for me to have to pay to raise it. Personal responsibility MUST be paramount, and, you know Failure IS an option. People MUST fail, or they don't learn.

First, ask "Why are they poor?" If it's because of a physical disability or birth defect - i.e. they are completely UNABLE, then they likely deserve care. I say likely because Physical disability takes many forms. If the guy lost an arm due to some accident then the responsible party should have liability. If the guy lost a liver because he chose to drown it with a liter of whiskey a day...

I'm fine with a guy smoking crack all day, if he wants to and can afford it - just don't want him running to the government so that the jackboots raid my savings to buy him a lung transplant...
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Old January 11th, 2010, 03:31 PM   #104 (permalink)
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I think its amazing how many times Obama said cspan with regards to healthcare bill and transparency that has shown now all lies

Also ever notice how when Obama goes to have a large talk with the nation it tends to disrupt hannity, Beck or oreilly.

We shouldn't be forced to take care of the less fortunate by paying more taxes, if we want to help there's volunteering, donations to charity, and ways around insurance like working with a Local doctor with payment plans and avoiding high cost procedures.
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Old January 11th, 2010, 08:41 PM   #105 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MonkeyK View Post
I call stupidity. Sorry, there is no other explanation for calling "treason" based on a chain e-mail message that you can't even bother to verify.
Twenty-six Lies About H.R. 3200 | FactCheck.org

Grow some integrity.

Whenever something seems completely ridiculous, one should feel compelled to verify it before repeating it.
Did you even read that garbage? Like business's won't be audited, they will be studied!

The government won't decide what's best for, just a "private panel" consisting of president appointed people. And they are just going to "recommend" a treatment.

Or universal machine readable health card?

Sounds a lot like a goverment national id to me.

Or simplify electronic payments through automated debit of your bank account

Sounds like real time bank account access to me

And nobody can sue the government for price fixing? Really? Now the government gets to decide how much doctors get paid? Really?

The government is going to ask doctors to "accept below market rates" . Serious? What about that doesn't just scream wrong. I mean.. with free health care... employers will feel they don't need to provide it anymore.. and drop it. So when medical insurance companies go belly up.. which they will... all doctors will have to accept these "below market" rates. That's not priice fixing? People who dedicated 100000 dollars or more in loans and more than a third of their life suddenly have to accept a pithy government wage?




And it is mandated that everyone must have insurance... and if the government deems yours isn't good enough you must pay 2.5 % GROSS income tax? Wow.

I could pick this crap apart all day...and it sounds like a pretty good summaru to me. You need to learn to |r|e|a|d| . ( I wonder who will understand that lol) seriously though.. you still have not even tried to contribute anything in your favor.. and your debunk site, which also happens to be "coincidence" obama has his hand in the annenburg foundation, which is the primary funder to factcheck.org

Looks like your the one who should read before he posts, monkey.
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Old January 11th, 2010, 11:18 PM   #106 (permalink)
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Oh yeah.
Let's put proof to the LIE.
"no tax increases for the middle class... people who make under (moving target number here -- something between 200 and 250k...per year)...

My "pay" did not get any increase (crappy economy and all that...) last year. So, easy comparison...

Federal Income Tax Deduction 12/24/2009 = $115.57
Federal Income Tax Deduction 01/08/2010 = $123.16

Mind you,while that seems small to some the first part of that paycheck was 12/27-12/31 (5 days of last year... at last years tax rate...)

-$20 per pay period... that's change I can live to hate...

That's family pizza night shot to hell.
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Old January 12th, 2010, 11:02 AM   #107 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by IOWA View Post
.

Did you even read that garbage? Like business's won't be audited, they will be studied!

The government won't decide what's best for, just a "private panel" consisting of president appointed people. And they are just going to "recommend" a treatment.

Or universal machine readable health card?

Sounds a lot like a goverment national id to me.

Or simplify electronic payments through automated debit of your bank account

Sounds like real time bank account access to me

And nobody can sue the government for price fixing? Really? Now the government gets to decide how much doctors get paid? Really?

The government is going to ask doctors to "accept below market rates" . Serious? What about that doesn't just scream wrong. I mean.. with free health care... employers will feel they don't need to provide it anymore.. and drop it. So when medical insurance companies go belly up.. which they will... all doctors will have to accept these "below market" rates. That's not priice fixing? People who dedicated 100000 dollars or more in loans and more than a third of their life suddenly have to accept a pithy government wage?




And it is mandated that everyone must have insurance... and if the government deems yours isn't good enough you must pay 2.5 % GROSS income tax? Wow.

I could pick this crap apart all day...and it sounds like a pretty good summaru to me. You need to learn to |r|e|a|d| . ( I wonder who will understand that lol) seriously though.. you still have not even tried to contribute anything in your favor.. and your debunk site, which also happens to be "coincidence" obama has his hand in the annenburg foundation, which is the primary funder to factcheck.org

Looks like your the one who should read before he posts, monkey.
It is humerous, if not pathetic, that you complain about the potential for partisanship in a source debunking an anonymously written chain e-mail.

I'm not sure that you understand (or care) what is in my favor. I'm not sure that you understand what is even in your favor.

Seriously. It is easy to see that I won't have a real discussion with you. Your posts make it abundantly clear that you are far more interested in freeperbation than understanding a different point of view. To have a real discussion, you would need to some integrity.

People who knee-jerkedly paste off anything that they see that confirms their worst bias, regardless of the likelyhood of truth; people who do not cite their sources or cite anonymous sources; people who know that they are wrong about something but don't fix it. These are not the sort of people with whom one can have a rational conversation.

I touched the waters a few times and have found that this thread is more of a violent cesspool. For some odd reason, I like it. I've found that it's quite entertaining to find out what nauseous smell will bubble up from the more rabid posts in this thread.
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Old January 12th, 2010, 11:09 AM   #108 (permalink)
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Oh yeah.
Let's put proof to the LIE.
"no tax increases for the middle class... people who make under (moving target number here -- something between 200 and 250k...per year)...

My "pay" did not get any increase (crappy economy and all that...) last year. So, easy comparison...

Federal Income Tax Deduction 12/24/2009 = $115.57
Federal Income Tax Deduction 01/08/2010 = $123.16

Mind you,while that seems small to some the first part of that paycheck was 12/27-12/31 (5 days of last year... at last years tax rate...)

-$20 per pay period... that's change I can live to hate...

That's family pizza night shot to hell.
That's great! I can just see your family sitting down to pizza and Obama steps in with a Tommy-gun blasting the pizza full of holes. Kids run off crying, parents to shocked to console them.
You should get Quentin Tarantino to direct it as a PAC funded ad.
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Old January 12th, 2010, 05:04 PM   #109 (permalink)
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You don't understand much, do you.
I make less than 250k.
Obama promised no increase in taxes for people who make less than 250k

My taxes went up. Promise Broken. Obama LIED!

And, the increase is more than my kids school lunches, so I guess Nobama thinks my kid does not need lunch anymore....

John
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Old January 12th, 2010, 05:23 PM   #110 (permalink)
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If you are earning 250k then I think you'll still be able to afford your kids' lunches. ;-)
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Old January 12th, 2010, 11:30 PM   #111 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MonkeyK View Post
It is humerous, if not pathetic, that you complain about the potential for partisanship in a source debunking an anonymously written chain e-mail.

I'm not sure that you understand (or care) what is in my favor. I'm not sure that you understand what is even in your favor.

Seriously. It is easy to see that I won't have a real discussion with you. Your posts make it abundantly clear that you are far more interested in freeperbation than understanding a different point of view. To have a real discussion, you would need to some integrity.

People who knee-jerkedly paste off anything that they see that confirms their worst bias, regardless of the likelyhood of truth; people who do not cite their sources or cite anonymous sources; people who know that they are wrong about something but don't fix it. These are not the sort of people with whom one can have a rational conversation.

I touched the waters a few times and have found that this thread is more of a violent cesspool. For some odd reason, I like it. I've found that it's quite entertaining to find out what nauseous smell will bubble up from the more rabid posts in this thread.
It appears to me you are the one who cannot hold a rational discussion. While I've done nothing but provide evidence to prove my case, you can't come back with a real rebuttle, so you turn to flameing and spewing rhetoric. It is quite childish IMO.

It is a fact Obama does have his hands in the annenburg foundation, which in turn does own, operate, and fund factcheck.org.

And if you really feel government run healthcare is in your favor, then move to another country. That is not capitalism. That in turn is not patriotism. Seems to me people who are willing to contribute to society, and work for their dinner see it the same way I do. The way patriots do, and understand the importance of free enterprise.

If you can't be mature, and not post flames simply because you can't prove your point, or provide viable evidence in your favor, then I will respectfully ask you to not take part in this discussion.

It is good to debate, it makes those of us contributing learn more, and do more research. Another thing to me is most if not all of the obama supporters in this thread, and in general, have resorted to childish name-calling, and when they get shot down, even more name calling. Another coincidence? I am still reading the 1000 some odd page plan, and the more I read it the more I am in disgust. I am forming my own logical conclusion, and while a "chain email" may have sparked my interest, my thoughts are exactly that, my thoughts. And if healthcare was so unaffordable, why do I see healthcare plans, good ones, averaging about $100 per month. That is less than what the majority of us pay for cable/internet packages, or even a cell phone bill. If you can afford your monthly phone bill, you can afford healthcare. Sounds to me like you just want a free ride, and need to rearrange your priorities. You are not entitled to anything but what you work for.

And I don't want a government panel "recommending" what treatment I should receive, that is a doctors job.

I don't want doctors who will be underpaid cutting corners to treat me and my future family to make up for the losses from a underpaid "government healthcare" option. If you want that for yourself it appears you don't know what in YOUR favor.

Another thought, how much integrity can someone have if they insist another individual doesn't have integrity for voicing his opinion, a first amendment right, backed evidence/facts in his favor, while providing little to none of his own, and flaming those who don't agree with him. That just shows a lack of integrity.

And truley, if you can't afford a healthcare plan, perhaps you should spend less time on internet forums flaming people and find another job, or a way to earn more money. Or cancel your internet connection, after all, internet is not a necessity either, it is a luxury. Or is internet access a right too?

Edit:

Also, I do not need to cite my sources. If you truely want to learn you will do your own research.
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Old January 12th, 2010, 11:58 PM   #112 (permalink)
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Also, I do not need to cite my sources. If you truely want to learn you will do your own research.
...because in a debate, there's no need to know where the facts came from right?
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Old January 13th, 2010, 12:31 AM   #113 (permalink)
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I'm just saying there is nothing wrong with doing your own research, and I also do the majority of my posting from my phone, so its a pain to cite them as well
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Old January 13th, 2010, 10:50 AM   #114 (permalink)
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It appears to me you are the one who cannot hold a rational discussion. While I've done nothing but provide evidence to prove my case, you can't come back with a real rebuttle, so you turn to flameing and spewing rhetoric. It is quite childish IMO.

It is a fact Obama does have his hands in the annenburg foundation, which in turn does own, operate, and fund factcheck.org.

And if you really feel government run healthcare is in your favor, then move to another country. That is not capitalism. That in turn is not patriotism. Seems to me people who are willing to contribute to society, and work for their dinner see it the same way I do. The way patriots do, and understand the importance of free enterprise.

If you can't be mature, and not post flames simply because you can't prove your point, or provide viable evidence in your favor, then I will respectfully ask you to not take part in this discussion.

It is good to debate, it makes those of us contributing learn more, and do more research. Another thing to me is most if not all of the obama supporters in this thread, and in general, have resorted to childish name-calling, and when they get shot down, even more name calling. Another coincidence? I am still reading the 1000 some odd page plan, and the more I read it the more I am in disgust. I am forming my own logical conclusion, and while a "chain email" may have sparked my interest, my thoughts are exactly that, my thoughts. And if healthcare was so unaffordable, why do I see healthcare plans, good ones, averaging about $100 per month. That is less than what the majority of us pay for cable/internet packages, or even a cell phone bill. If you can afford your monthly phone bill, you can afford healthcare. Sounds to me like you just want a free ride, and need to rearrange your priorities. You are not entitled to anything but what you work for.

And I don't want a government panel "recommending" what treatment I should receive, that is a doctors job.

I don't want doctors who will be underpaid cutting corners to treat me and my future family to make up for the losses from a underpaid "government healthcare" option. If you want that for yourself it appears you don't know what in YOUR favor.

Another thought, how much integrity can someone have if they insist another individual doesn't have integrity for voicing his opinion, a first amendment right, backed evidence/facts in his favor, while providing little to none of his own, and flaming those who don't agree with him. That just shows a lack of integrity.

And truley, if you can't afford a healthcare plan, perhaps you should spend less time on internet forums flaming people and find another job, or a way to earn more money. Or cancel your internet connection, after all, internet is not a necessity either, it is a luxury. Or is internet access a right too?

Edit:

Also, I do not need to cite my sources. If you truely want to learn you will do your own research.

Saying false things does not make them true. Using others opinions as the basis of an argument makes for a very weak argument unless the "other" is an expert at making that opinion. Attributing assertions that I did not make to me does not make them my assertions.

Unfortunately, I think that you really think that you are being reasonable. You are not. Do your own research on that.
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Old January 13th, 2010, 12:07 PM   #115 (permalink)
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If you are earning 250k then I think you'll still be able to afford your kids' lunches. ;-)
Under, mate... Significantly Under. and I have 3 kids, 1 in college, and my wife does not work outside the home... $20 is HUGE.
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Old January 13th, 2010, 03:28 PM   #116 (permalink)
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You don't understand much, do you.
I make less than 250k.
Obama promised no increase in taxes for people who make less than 250k

My taxes went up. Promise Broken. Obama LIED!

And, the increase is more than my kids school lunches, so I guess Nobama thinks my kid does not need lunch anymore....

John
The pizza ad thing was a joke.

It's a little odd that you would use your paycheck to figure out your tax rate when the rates are published. My Fed deduction was a little lower, but my pretax expenses increased a little (much larger HSA set aside this year). Did you verify that your pretax items did not affect the amount?

I did a quick search for 2009 vs 2020 rates and found this:
2009 versus 2010 Federal Income Tax Bracket Tables and Standard Deduction Changes
if the info there is correct (and I don't really want to spend the time to verify it), your Federal income tax went down.
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Old January 13th, 2010, 08:16 PM   #117 (permalink)
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Saying false things does not make them true. Using others opinions as the basis of an argument makes for a very weak argument unless the "other" is an expert at making that opinion. Attributing assertions that I did not make to me does not make them my assertions.

Unfortunately, I think that you really think that you are being reasonable. You are not. Do your own research on that.
Just wanted to thank you for proving my point. Instead of producing evidence or a decent thought up rebuttle, you spew rhetoric. Game, sets. Match.

Now I would realy like to know, how, exactly, in detail, am I being unreasonable?

Is this the part where you say something like "true things are not false" or "a lie is not the truth"
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Old January 14th, 2010, 11:23 AM   #118 (permalink)
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I did verify it line by line. my medical deduction went up by 7$. My taxes went up further..
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Old February 23rd, 2010, 03:06 PM   #119 (permalink)
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Hi everyone! My first post here, just registered as I am going to by an android phone soon.

Anyway i thought some different views of socialism might be in place. It isn't strictly on the subject but seems to be relevant to the arguments.

I live in Sweden (Europe) which with your measures clearly is a SUPERsocialist country. We have 7 political parties as of now and all of them are way more left wing then both of your parties (there is a number of parties that doesnít make it to parliament which covers extreme right and left opinions too).

First of, Calling obama a socialist is just silly, I would love if he was more socialist though.

I wouldnít call myself a socialist but with your eyes I clearly am. Sweden have among the highest tax pressure in the world, maybe itís the number one actually. Still I would (and will) vote for higher taxes anyday of the week (not too much offcourse ^^).

So here is Scandinavian socialism:
First of high taxes ^^
free, equal and good (as of now government owned) healthcare (health insurance),
free education (private as well as non-private though all payed through tax money) ,
good support to disabled people and their families,
support for the unemployed,
support for the poor,
support for the exposed,
support for people studying.
GOOD salaries and working conditions enforced by law (minimal salaries and so on).

The last point meaning that very, and I mean very few have to work double jobs (havenít heard of anyone). No one (way, way less then US anyways) have problems living on the salary of their 8h job. You canít be fired arbitrary like in the states.

As of now Iím studying in Lunds university, all higher education is free and of really good quality (if you donít choose to study some really strange stuff which you are free to :P), I could even go study in the best US universities and the state would cover my costs (if I had the grades :P).

While Iím studying Iím given enough money to pay for my apartment and can take a government loan to cover the rest of my costs (that is food and some literature. Iím living on some old work money right now so I donít take it). I have 6 years with this support and free education I can chose freely from.

(On top of that I can study 2 years in ďpeoples schoolĒ wich sounds like communist humbug but anyways itís a special school type in Scandinavia which covers allot but doesnít give you any Points (?) )

I know that I wonít have any problem finding a good salary job with my grade when im done (job marked screams for people with my education :P)

The beautiful thing with all this is that I know that the HUGE amount of money that everyone has invested in me I will pay back through taxes. I will cover the next generationís costs.

And to sort things out there is a HUGE difference between Socialism and communism. I dislike China and soviet as much as most of you.

Sweden ranks first in the world in The Economist's Democracy Index and seventh in the United Nations' Human Development Index Ė and still we are socialist

Why don't most of americans appreciate socialism. How come you don't want your fellow countrymen to get education and healthcare?
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Old February 23rd, 2010, 03:21 PM   #120 (permalink)
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Because most Americans are greedy, selfish bastards. We can only hope that we don't get another George Bush type in office. Besides our government though, our country as a whole has a terrible attitude toward the rest of the world. I love my country, but I'm still saddened by the many downfalls we currently have.
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Old February 23rd, 2010, 04:05 PM   #121 (permalink)
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Can anyone buy me an airplane ticket to Sweden I have been unemployed for two years thanks to wall street.

Funny, being a brunette some Swedish friends told me to move there years ago, I would get plenty of chicks.

Little did I know I would get a free education, great job and a beautiful blond girl.
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Old February 23rd, 2010, 08:54 PM   #122 (permalink)
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A big part of the American public's disdain for Socialism is the fact that it is the "gateway drug" to Communism. If it is not controlled it can easily make the leap, and that is usually at the hands of the people in power.

I am all for helping my fellow man, but too often it is twisted and warped by the crooked politicians here to serve a different purpose. Also, there is a huge portion of the people who receive this assistance that are merely taking advantage of the system. If safeguards where put into place to prevent that from happening it would do a lot towards improving peoples view of the system and Socialism.
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Old February 23rd, 2010, 09:15 PM   #123 (permalink)
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I'll definitely agree with you on that. Our social programs are a joke, we really need to crack down own who qualifies. We need to do random drug tests and force people that are on programs like welfare to get a damn education. No more freeloading off of my tax dollars.
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Old February 23rd, 2010, 09:47 PM   #124 (permalink)
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What no one seems to understand is that MY money is MINE. I do not want to pay for your health inshurance, your education, your lack of foresight or your lack of ambition. It's not fair that you go to school on my money and become a doctor and then keep all the money you make. If I want to loan you money I will do so on my own merit and you will pay me what I loaned you plus interest. If you want braces then you pay for them, if you want to retire then put money aside until the day you retire.

I do not expect anyone to pay for me and I certainly loath the fact that I am paying for anyone else. If you are an able bodied person you should not be getting a dime from the government.

Why is this so bad? I think it's fair?
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Old February 23rd, 2010, 09:50 PM   #125 (permalink)
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If you don't like taxes, move somewhere else. Lol, I'm all for taxes. It's the only way things are taken care of. Those doctors DO pay back into the system.
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Old February 23rd, 2010, 10:43 PM   #126 (permalink)
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Not too many Americans know the advantages as well as the disadvantages of Socialism to care. Most think it's a bad thing and just dismiss it as such. For me, the benefits out weigh the disadvantages. I think Obama is on the right track for healthcare reform. I believe that the US is not a Government of the people, for the people and by the people, but of the private sector, for the corporation and by the lobbyist.
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Old February 27th, 2010, 08:54 AM   #127 (permalink)
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So providing basic healthcare to the poor who could not otherwise afford it is communism is it?

I'm done with this thread.
You are citing one mistake, the poor have healthcare, it is the middle class who have been robbed by wall street who need it.
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Old February 27th, 2010, 08:58 AM   #128 (permalink)
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If you don't like taxes, move somewhere else. Lol, I'm all for taxes. It's the only way things are taken care of. Those doctors DO pay back into the system.
The problem is not taxes or government, it is taxes spent on the wrong things and bad government. Our government represents the will of our people, lazy and not willing to get involved, thats why our government does not represent the people. The government represents those who get involved, the rich and lobbyists.
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Old February 27th, 2010, 11:30 AM   #129 (permalink)
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Not too many Americans know the advantages as well as the disadvantages of Socialism to care. Most think it's a bad thing and just dismiss it as such. For me, the benefits out weigh the disadvantages. I think Obama is on the right track for healthcare reform. I believe that the US is not a Government of the people, for the people and by the people, but of the private sector, for the corporation and by the lobbyist.
Welcome to The United Corporations of America!
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Old March 2nd, 2010, 08:26 AM   #130 (permalink)
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Please educate yourself on what the Progressive Movement in America is. Progressivism on both rebublican and democratic sides is running rampant right now and has been for a very long time. Some progressives are not as radical as others but any amount of it being in public office is a bad thing. As Americans we need to start personally taking it upon ourselves as individuals to research out and do our homework on things that threaten our freedom. Too often we hear and then dismiss far out stories, facts and other information that certain news stations may pass off as a conspiracy theory. Always ask yourself, "If there are facts that prove a point that is being called a conspiracy...is it really a conspiracy?"

Being a successful politician is NOT the same thing as being a successful business person. Unfortunately, not many public servants view it as such.
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Old March 2nd, 2010, 09:10 AM   #131 (permalink)
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The problem is not taxes or government, it is taxes spent on the wrong things and bad government. Our government represents the will of our people, lazy and not willing to get involved, thats why our government does not represent the people. The government represents those who get involved, the rich and lobbyists.
Well, I'm glad they don't represent the "lazy and not willing to get involved" class of people. America is lazy and selfish...period. That's why the rest of the world has so much disdain for us. We have everything we'd ever need, yet we bitch about everything we don't have.
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Old March 2nd, 2010, 10:01 AM   #132 (permalink)
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The fact that these people actually believe health care is a right and not a priveledge scare me. Health care, believe it or not takes money to advance. You don't find "miracle" cures by wishing on rainbows or saviours on unicorns, it takes research and engineering of the highest order. Guess what children, that means money, and lots of it.

Producing medicine on a large scale is also not something that your typical 7-11 attendant can manage either, more money, and lots of it.

This happy little dream world where everything is fair and nice and everybody loves each other (you know, the one the big "O" promoted to get elected) is simply not possible. By stripping away the benefits (benefits translates once again into that inconveniant money thing) of advancement in the interest of making things "fair" you eventually kill the chances that anybody will invest anything to advance that industry. Medical industry included.

What exactly do you cut to bring medical costs down as the great one has claimed so elequently that he do. Costs don't just magincally go away, something has to cut somewhere.

Doctor Pay? Yeah, that sounds like a good idea...they are way too rich anyway.

Drug engineering? Hmm, then we start to wine why we aren't curing things...

Less complicated medical machinery? We'll go back to leaches and weekly blood letting, those are cheap treatments....

It's a business people. Once you turn it into a charity for the poor poor downtrodden unfairly treated poor people that get spat on every day as they just try to make a way for themselves in this cruel cruel country (because people are always being turned away in emergency rooms), quality of health care will go right down the toilet. But then, everybody will get crappy treatment....so maybe that is fair, everybody gets to suffer and die at the same earlier time.

you have bought into a lie my friend. if you think that drug prices are justifiable by these means then you are wrong.

it takes a very long time for for this kind of info to come out so at first some of these dates may seem a little off, but i assure you, nothing has changed.

the top five selling drugs in 1995 were Zantac, Zovirax, Capoten, Vasotec, and Prozac. All of these drugs were the results of research that was documented in 17 published scientific papers and the NIH reported that 16 of the 17 papers came from OUTSIDE the pharmaceutical industry. The Boston Globe reported that of the best selling 50 drugs from 1992 to 1997, forty-five of those drugs had received government funding. In 1998, Health Affairs (a medical journal) reported that only 15% of the the scientific articles underpinning patent applications for clinical medicines came from pharmaceutical industry research, while 54 percent came from universities, 13 percent from government labs, and the rest from other public and nonprofit institutions.

In 2000, Forbes estimated that, after plowing $21 billion back in to R&D, the ten largest U.S. drugmakers had $100 billion more in sales than manufacturing costs. In 2001, drug companies gave doctors nearly $11 billion worth of 'free samples.'

In 2001, the drug company Pharmacia spent 44 percent of its revenues on marketing, advertising, and admin versus 16 percent on R&D.

GlaxoSmithKline and Bayer spent $20 million on a deal with the NFL to advertise Levitra.

AstraZeneca spent nearly $500 million trying to convince you simply to switch from Prilosec to Nexium (two competing drugs in the same class).

In 2001, the five highest-paid pharmaceutical company executives received more than $183 million in compensation, not including stock options.

In 2005, twenty chief executives of big pharma took home compensations of more than $1 million. Bristol-Meyers Squibb's CEO took home over $8 million, the chiefs of Eli Lilly and Abbot both took home more than $11 million, and the chief of Pfizer took home $16,419,270.
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Old March 2nd, 2010, 10:10 AM   #133 (permalink)
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What reznorfan0 is basically trying to say is that medicine costs money and therefore should only be available to those who can afford it. If that was the case carve out the 70% that the government currently pays for and we would have no R&D.

Some people really need to put down the conservative kool-aid and start checking the facts as vandyblackandgold states.

The first mistake you make is thinking these conservative rich cats actually care about you and will let you in the club someday if "you play by all the rules". Wake up most people who played by all the rules are getting foreclosed on because your friends on wall street decided we didn't really need our retirement funds or our jobs.
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Old March 2nd, 2010, 02:18 PM   #134 (permalink)
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What reznorfan0 is basically trying to say is that medicine costs money and therefore should only be available to those who can afford it. If that was the case carve out the 70% that the government currently pays for and we would have no R&D.

Some people really need to put down the conservative kool-aid and start checking the facts as vandyblackandgold states.

The first mistake you make is thinking these conservative rich cats actually care about you and will let you in the club someday if "you play by all the rules". Wake up most people who played by all the rules are getting foreclosed on because your friends on wall street decided we didn't really need our retirement funds or our jobs.
Stop throwing in random half truths to this argument. If your house gets forclosed upon it is for a reason. Either you lost your job and can't pay your mortgage or you signed for a cheap at first ARM and are now getting screwed because now you can't afford it. This is an unfair world we live in. Let's not start turning this into the tired old, blatantly false argument of "evil conservative white people are stealing peoples homes from them". Part of the problem with this country as a whole is that we are almost trained to NOT look at ANYTHING on the basis of individual responsibility. It's the same thing as the gun argument: guns kill people instead of people kill people; kids do bad in school, so Obama says if it continues the teachers and principles will be fired. I mean come on, when are we going to lay down the cold hard truth to this overly politically correct society of ours and say: You are the only one responsible for your own failures and successes. Not your parents, not your teachers, not your president, not you ancestors, not someone else's ancestors. Geez common sense people.
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Old March 2nd, 2010, 03:18 PM   #135 (permalink)
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in response to the OP:

i will agree with you that this can traced back to Clinton's administration, to a point...I dont understand how you can say ALL the blame lies within that eight years. In fact, I dont understand any one person or one party can ever say something of this nature happens within a certain presidents terms...the country doesnt reset itself every 4 years.

so while we can both agree that in order to make our economy prosper and appear to have balanced the budget and create a surplus on paper, the Clinton admin pushed a few things through. the economy didnt fail overnight, it took time. time that flows into W's two terms, yet you fail to mention that.

here in lies a two-fold problem: the banks did not fail simply because of the foreclosures alone...the banks failed because of the money that was supposed to back up said foreclosures was missing. why was this money missing? well, there is a business model out there that Republicans are very very proud of and like to throw around very loosely, free enterprise. the idea that as long as a company is not doing anything that is clearly illegal, they should be allowed to make millions upon billions b/c that is the american way. well the banks got greedy and decided to start trading the credit behind all the inflated mortgages internationally, not the actual money, the credit and proposed interest that would be collected if the mortgages were completely collected on. on paper this made bank's bottom lines look really, really good and every patted each other on the back because of how good their banks were doing. then the foreclosures happened and all of that supposed credit disappeared. well the money that banks actually had was tied up and they had no way to cover their losses since it was all traded in futures and credits.

this didnt happen overnight. it was happening while W was in office for 8 years. He did nothing about it either, because lo and behold a republican president is never going to upset the delicate balance of the free enterprise model. so he did nothing, especially his final year office when he did absolutely nothing about anything.

i will agree with you on one more thing....obama has done nothing. i dont understand why people say he has done so much bad for us already. he hasnt done anything yet. he hasnt done good, nor has he done bad.
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Old March 6th, 2010, 09:15 PM   #136 (permalink)
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Everything that's wrong with our economy is the republicans fault and everything right is the democrats fault....
Invert this and it's perfectly correct
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Old March 7th, 2010, 02:43 AM   #137 (permalink)
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I trust you understood my sarcasm?
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Old March 7th, 2010, 09:25 AM   #138 (permalink)
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I trust you understood my sarcasm?
Oh yeah I did For some reason last night my comment amused me more than it does today...
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Old March 7th, 2010, 04:38 PM   #139 (permalink)
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What no one seems to understand is that MY money is MINE. I do not want to pay for your health inshurance, your education, your lack of foresight or your lack of ambition. It's not fair that you go to school on my money and become a doctor and then keep all the money you make. If I want to loan you money I will do so on my own merit and you will pay me what I loaned you plus interest. If you want braces then you pay for them, if you want to retire then put money aside until the day you retire.

I do not expect anyone to pay for me and I certainly loath the fact that I am paying for anyone else. If you are an able bodied person you should not be getting a dime from the government.

Why is this so bad? I think it's fair?

Amen brother
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Old March 7th, 2010, 05:19 PM   #140 (permalink)
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In 2001, the drug company Pharmacia spent 44 percent of its revenues on marketing, advertising, and admin versus 16 percent on R&D.
And how many billions of dollars does that 16% represent? How many new innovations? How much was learned or new drugs developed with that 16%? How much would it be if the government ran the drug companies? 0% of 0 is still 0 so that's how much there would be to spend on it.

I don't see how people in their right minds can think that the government takeover of health care can be a good thing. Do you not see the facts in front of your face? You can see how poorly it has worked in Canada and the UK. Name one government program that works well. Even welfare is mismanaged. They can't even efficiently steal money from the productive and give it to the unproductive without losing 75% of the money by running the bureaucracy.
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Old March 11th, 2010, 02:34 PM   #141 (permalink)
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And how many billions of dollars does that 16% represent? How many new innovations? How much was learned or new drugs developed with that 16%? How much would it be if the government ran the drug companies? 0% of 0 is still 0 so that's how much there would be to spend on it.

I don't see how people in their right minds can think that the government takeover of health care can be a good thing. Do you not see the facts in front of your face? You can see how poorly it has worked in Canada and the UK. Name one government program that works well. Even welfare is mismanaged. They can't even efficiently steal money from the productive and give it to the unproductive without losing 75% of the money by running the bureaucracy.
dude....seriously?!!?! you really think that this is justifiable? your point may sound really good in your head, but you are okay with the industry that is supposed to save lives spending almost 3 TIMES the amount of money on commercials than they do actual work!? WOW!

yes you can argue, "and how many billions of dollars does that 16% represent?" man that sounds great, but you have to look at the whole picture here...if that 16% represents 16 billion dollars, then that means they spent 44 billion on marketing!! and you are cool with this?

and in response to your well thought out, deep logic about the government "taking over healthcare," you need to step back and sort out your arguments...while personally i think the core problem behind our healthcare system are the drug companies, the current healthcare reform debate that is at hand is about where you get your insurance from, it has nothing to do with manufacturing, completely separate issues....

but since you think that your argument sounds so good with your 0% of 0 is still 0 bit, i thought i would include a little snippet from post...see below

"the top five selling drugs in 1995 were Zantac, Zovirax, Capoten, Vasotec, and Prozac. All of these drugs were the results of research that was documented in 17 published scientific papers and the NIH reported that 16 of the 17 papers came from OUTSIDE the pharmaceutical industry. The Boston Globe reported that of the best selling 50 drugs from 1992 to 1997, forty-five of those drugs had received government funding. In 1998, Health Affairs (a medical journal) reported that only 15% of the the scientific articles underpinning patent applications for clinical medicines came from pharmaceutical industry research, while 54 percent came from universities, 13 percent from government labs, and the rest from other public and nonprofit institutions. "

i guess you missed over that paragraph in the same post that you quoted from....
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Old March 11th, 2010, 03:46 PM   #142 (permalink)
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And how many billions of dollars does that 16% represent? How many new innovations? How much was learned or new drugs developed with that 16%? How much would it be if the government ran the drug companies? 0% of 0 is still 0 so that's how much there would be to spend on it.

I don't see how people in their right minds can think that the government takeover of health care can be a good thing. Do you not see the facts in front of your face? You can see how poorly it has worked in Canada and the UK. Name one government program that works well. Even welfare is mismanaged. They can't even efficiently steal money from the productive and give it to the unproductive without losing 75% of the money by running the bureaucracy.
First of all, unlike you have been led to believe the government is not taking over healthcare. The only government run healthcare is the veterans administration. It is providing a framework upon which healthcare providers and insurers must operate under. These rules will dictate things like; you can't drop someone when they get sick, you cannot deny coverage, you cannot have unreasonable high deductibles and individuals must have insurance. It is common sense that if everyone has a policy insurance costs will go down, i.e. the pool is increased. If people have insurance they can get preventative care which will bring health costs down. This is exactly the kind of cost management that businesses use every day. For once our country is trying to conduct sound business practices and the so called conservative pro business agenda is against it.

This is pure politics and don't forget it.
Currently every state mandates insurance requirements this will now shift to the fed which will administer more evenly. Allowing the middle class who do not have health insurance the opportunity to buy into the same group plans as the government will greatly reduce the costs for their coverage.

The bottom line we are all paying for everyones healthcare right now but in a very inefficient way, this will formalize the arrangement. We regulate utilities but not health, why not.

And as far as competition across state lines goes, this is nonsense. Healthcare is cheaper in other states because of the costs in that state. Blue Cross of Georgia is not going to give a better rate to someone in Florida because the rates are indexed based on local costs..
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Old March 11th, 2010, 10:54 PM   #143 (permalink)
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First of all, unlike you have been led to believe the government is not taking over healthcare. The only government run healthcare is the veterans administration. It is providing a framework upon which healthcare providers and insurers must operate under. These rules will dictate things like; you can't drop someone when they get sick, you cannot deny coverage, you cannot have unreasonable high deductibles and individuals must have insurance. It is common sense that if everyone has a policy insurance costs will go down, i.e. the pool is increased. If people have insurance they can get preventative care which will bring health costs down. This is exactly the kind of cost management that businesses use every day. For once our country is trying to conduct sound business practices and the so called conservative pro business agenda is against it.

This is pure politics and don't forget it.
Currently every state mandates insurance requirements this will now shift to the fed which will administer more evenly. Allowing the middle class who do not have health insurance the opportunity to buy into the same group plans as the government will greatly reduce the costs for their coverage.

The bottom line we are all paying for everyones healthcare right now but in a very inefficient way, this will formalize the arrangement. We regulate utilities but not health, why not.

And as far as competition across state lines goes, this is nonsense. Healthcare is cheaper in other states because of the costs in that state. Blue Cross of Georgia is not going to give a better rate to someone in Florida because the rates are indexed based on local costs..
The minute the GOVERNMENT gets involved - and is the largest buyer - because they're the largest EMPLOYER in the country, well, they've taken it over.
The bills before congress put so many landmines out there that it's scary. Obama says Insurance Companies are evil and operating massive profits at our expense, but insurance industry only has a 2.2% profit margin - that's about 35th in the rank of all industries.

Democrat-socialists DEMAGOGUE everything until people believe it's true -because the media is on their side. The fact is less than HALF of the budget of this country is CONSTITUTIONALLY MANDATED. The other HALF is entitlement/safety net programs that grow and grow and grow to the point that they cannot be funded... that's where the debt all comes from.

What ever happened to PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY? I am responsible for me, my wife, and my 3 kids with the income I make. Government comes along and, at the point of a gun says 'your insurance is not up to my requirement so you have to give me 3% of your income as a penalty" - I call bull shit, come and get it motherF*ker, and I'll take out 12-15 of your goons as you try.

What I earn is MINE. That which you TAKE from me, without benefit directly to me or mine, is SLAVERY.

John
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Old March 11th, 2010, 11:05 PM   #144 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Caloy View Post
Not too many Americans know the advantages as well as the disadvantages of Socialism to care. Most think it's a bad thing and just dismiss it as such. For me, the benefits out weigh the disadvantages. I think Obama is on the right track for healthcare reform. I believe that the US is not a Government of the people, for the people and by the people, but of the private sector, for the corporation and by the lobbyist.
So you'd rather have the government knock down the door of your :"better off" neighbor because he has something you don't? I say F u asshole. Earn what you NEED and WANT and keep your hands out of my wallet.

Your life is the result of the choices and decisions that you make. It is not my responsibility to compensate you to be equal to me because of some bad choice or decision you made, and it's not YOUR RIGHT to force the government to take from me to make you EQUAL.

This is a country of Equal Opportunity, not Equal Results.

John
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Old March 12th, 2010, 08:36 AM   #145 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by momoceio View Post
Well, I'm glad they don't represent the "lazy and not willing to get involved" class of people. America is lazy and selfish...period. That's why the rest of the world has so much disdain for us. We have everything we'd ever need, yet we bitch about everything we don't have.
Would you prefer that we become like other countries? Let's become China. We're selfish? Why do we donate more things to more countries around the world than any other country? (That is probably the result of sticking our noses into other people's business too often, but there it is.)

You have no concept of what selfish is when in places China, the government will come and burn your house down for any reason and no one will say a thing about it. Rush Limbaugh will not rant that random black people came and burned down your house in Obama's America. Steven Colbert will not make fun of CNN's tendency to "leave that there" when they don't cover an arbitrary decision to destroy your home. Your neighbors won't even let you sleep on the couch. No one will care because it isn't happening to them.

The rest of the world disdains us? That is just too bad. The UK didn't care when people questioned them about removing the holocaust from history books so as not to offend their muslim citizens. Another country has tried to make it illegal for women to wear the burka as it degrades them, while butt-floss bikinis are OK. That country did not give a damn what anyone else thought. We're all different and if other countries can't look past that, they are just as bigoted as they accuse us of being.

We don't have everything. We have the potential for everything. We're complaining because too many people waste it.
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Old March 12th, 2010, 01:36 PM   #146 (permalink)
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There are two types of people in the world, those who like Obama and everyone else.
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Old March 13th, 2010, 04:40 AM   #147 (permalink)
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The UK didn't care when people questioned them about removing the holocaust from history books so as not to offend their muslim citizens.
Huh??? Sorry to interject but seriously....where did you get this pearl of wisdom from???
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Old March 13th, 2010, 03:09 PM   #148 (permalink)
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Huh??? Sorry to interject but seriously....where did you get this pearl of wisdom from???
It isn't wisdom, I would say it is anything but.

First from the other side of the ocean:

Teachers drop the Holocaust to avoid offending Muslims | Mail Online

There were similar stories in the Register and the Guardian.

Then, there was a huge row about it in the New York Post, but they are about as reputable as the Washington Post. Later, it was "debunked" as a hoax which isn't too far fetched as the bulk of those articles came out around April Fools' Day.

Boycott Watch - UK Holocaust Curriculum Removal Emails Are False

While it was not a sick joke, it was the spin put on an issue by self interested groups that play upon the sympathies of others. I fell for it as many others do in cases that pertain to our actions as well. I am not sure which is worse, a tasteless joke or rampant hyperbole meant serve someone's political agenda.

It is as bad as those who say people who reject our current healthcare bill don't want health reform or for people to get reasonable health care. I also could not find the Guardian, Daily Mail, either of the Posts (but the Washington and New York Posts suck anyway) offering a retraction.

Then, to add more sludge to the pond, 6 months later:
Boycott Watch - UK Schools and the Holocaust Curriculum - Boycott Watch President Fred Taub Analyzed The Origin Of The Story

So now it isn't the UK government, it is an insidious attempt by subversive educators to bury the issue? It certainly seems that the apple hasn't fallen too far from the tree. We haven't gotten any better at this horrible game, either.

So Slug, I don't know.
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Old March 13th, 2010, 06:56 PM   #149 (permalink)
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Equal Opportunity, not equal results. Ima pull an Apple and Trademark that. Just Kidding. I like it though!
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Old March 14th, 2010, 05:29 AM   #150 (permalink)
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So Slug, I don't know.
No probs, just so long as it's clear this isn't a nationwide policy but rather a few misguided and misinformed individuals causing more trouble than if they'd left well alone.
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