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Old January 13th, 2012, 07:12 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Video shows officer beating 66-year-old man suffering from dementia

WFTV obtained dash camera video of a violent police beating in Melbourne. The video shows an officer attacking a 66–year-old man who WFTV learned is suffering from dementia. In the video, Melbourne police Officer Derek Middendorf is shown giving Albert Flowers a front kick to his stomach. Middendorf then punched Flowers repeatedly while he was on the ground. In a report, Middendorf said Flowers walked towards him in an aggressive manner at a fast pace and he couldn't tell whether he had a knife in his hands.

Raw Dash Cam: Man beaten by Melbourne officer

Flowers' nephew, Garrick Flowers, said he yelled at the officer to stop and told him his uncle has dementia. "He's 66 years old, he had triple bypass, I think he's killing him," said Garrick Flowers. Flowers owns a lawn care business, and said an employee called the police because he said Flowers pulled a knife on him during a fight about money. When police arrived, the family said Flowers never pulled a knife and that the issue had been resolved. "Everything was taken care of. If he forgot, I was there to take care of whatever," said Garrick Flowers. The family said Middendorf was choking Flowers, and the video shows another officer running over and tasing Flowers in the face. The family said Flowers was hospitalized for close to a month. The officer turned off his video and audio equipment before the beating. The department was able to extract the video from the hard drive, but not the audio. The only disciplinary record the officer received for the incident was a written reprimand for turning off the recording equipment. Flowers was charged with battery on a law enforcement officer. "It's ridiculous. Clearly from this video there was no assault on a law enforcement officer. We asked for a speedy trial. We want a jury to see this video," attorney Paul Bross said. The police chief said he could not comment on the allegations of excessive force, because he had not yet seen the complaint, which was filed on Friday.

Video shows officer beating 66-year-old man suffering from dementia

Truly sad.

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Old January 14th, 2012, 04:46 PM   #2 (permalink)
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wow, that officer is a coward, worst cover story ever.

officers are trained to draw there fire arm and step back if approached like that. second, an officer is NEVER supposed to attack a man when down, weather he had a knife or not, once he is unarmed and disabled you cuff him and that's the end. i hope this officer loses his job, his pension, and pays a hefty fine to the man
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Old January 16th, 2012, 11:04 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Controversy is growing over a beating of a 66-year-old man by a police officer in Brevard County that was recorded by the officer's dashboard camera. After viewing the video, prosecutors said they changed the charges against Albert Flowers, who was beaten by Officer Derek Middendorf. Flowers was arrested on Friday and charged with felony battery, investigators said. However, prosecutors said they reduced his charges to a misdemeanor of resisting an officer without violence.

Charges reduced against man beaten by officer

Wtf?
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Old January 17th, 2012, 02:36 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Holy crap i just saw that video. What reason could he have had to continue beating him instead of just cuffing him? And when the other jackass comes and tases him????? Jeez, and nothing happens to him. He goes about his routine and who knows what else he has done. This is what pisses a lot of people off, that jerks like this get a free pass at being idiots. I clean animal $#! + for a living and im REQUIRED to show more professionalism than theae rear ends!
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Old January 17th, 2012, 03:02 PM   #5 (permalink)
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It seems over the last year or so that either police brutality has gotten worse, or they are just getting caught more. Even the Department of Justice found that the SPD uses excessive force that violates federal law. Story here

They have also been racking up fines and breaking more laws by trying to conceal evidence of further brutality. Story here
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Old February 27th, 2012, 10:25 PM   #6 (permalink)
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The video no longer appears to be available.

"The officer turned off his video and audio equipment before the beating. The department was able to extract the video from the hard drive, but not the audio."

If true, the police officer should be charged with obstruction of justice and destruction of evidence and fired upon conviction, no resignation to avoid prosecution permitted.

These bad apples taint the law enforcement institution.
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Old February 28th, 2012, 12:06 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Here's the complete footage. (due to graphic nature....viewer discretion, blah blah blah)


White cop beating 66 year old black man courtesy of the Melbourne FL Police Department - YouTube


The piece of garbage officer should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. When a dog viciously attacks a human, they euthanize the animal thus I'd have no problems with this animal being euthanized.
 
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Old February 28th, 2012, 02:20 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by TxGoat View Post
Here's the complete footage. (due to graphic nature....viewer discretion, blah blah blah)


White cop beating 66 year old black man courtesy of the Melbourne FL Police Department - YouTube


The piece of garbage officer should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. When a dog viciously attacks a human, they euthanize the animal thus I'd have no problems with this animal being euthanized.
Appears to be "Roid Rage". Humans are not dogs, let's see if another course of action is available.

Anabolic steroids are the most insidious drugs known. It should be mandatory that all law enforcement members be tested and if tested positive, placed in a proper rehabilitation program.
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Old February 28th, 2012, 12:20 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Appears to be "Roid Rage". Humans are not dogs, let's see if another course of action is available.

Anabolic steroids are the most insidious drugs known. It should be mandatory that all law enforcement members be tested and if tested positive, placed in a proper rehabilitation program.

Roid/Cop rage. I'm not exactly sure when it happened, but for some reason a lot of officers have decided to let the authority go to their heads and instead of remembering that they're there to "protect and serve", it's as if they've decided to "intimidate and harass". I actually remember looking up to the profession as a child, now as an adult, not so much. I'm not sure when I stopped thinking that it was an honorable profession, but there has to be a reason that the profession has had an influx of these types of situations. Maybe they're under-paid and under-trained?!?!


And you're probably 100% right about the roid rage. For some reason steroid use within police departments seems to be a little more widely accepted than in other professions. Below is a local officer that used to be somewhat a local celeb. I've seen studies that indicate you don't get that big on anything "natural" no matter how much you workout.



 
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Old February 28th, 2012, 02:46 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by TxGoat View Post
... Below is a local officer that used to be somewhat a local celeb. I've seen studies that indicate you don't get that big on anything "natural" no matter how much you workout.



Appears to fit the profile. Anabolic steroid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The upper region of the body (thorax, neck, shoulders, and upper arm) seems to be more susceptible for AAS than other body regions because of predominance of androgen receptors in the upper body. The largest difference in muscle fiber size between AAS users and non-users was observed in type I muscle fibers of the vastus lateralis and the trapezius muscle as a result of long-term AAS self-administration. After drug withdrawal, the effects fade away slowly, but may persist for more than 6–12 weeks after cessation of AAS use."
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Old February 28th, 2012, 06:18 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I've seen studies that indicate you don't get that big on anything "natural" no matter how much you workout.



Im not gonna claim this fella isnt on steroids...... I dont know him.... Ive never seen his medical records......

but I can say with 100% certainty that ANY study that says you cannot get this big without steroids was clearly conducted by complete idiots...... there is plenty of irrefutable evidence that you can achieve this size without the use of steroids.... and plenty of pictures to prove it

as for the current state of police brutality becoming more prolific........ theres probably less brutality now than anytime in the past........ the difference is now everyone and their uncle has a cellphone with a video camera feature and departments arent willing to cover it up anymore......... 50 years ago you would have been hard pressed to find a single cop who didnt give at least 1 person a beat down each day
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Old February 28th, 2012, 09:50 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Im not gonna claim this fella isnt on steroids...... I dont know him.... Ive never seen his medical records......

but I can say with 100% certainty that ANY study that says you cannot get this big without steroids was clearly conducted by complete idiots...... there is plenty of irrefutable evidence that you can achieve this size without the use of steroids.... and plenty of pictures to prove it
I know one Ph.D. that would disagree with you and has actually tracked the progress of "natural" bodybuilders. Feel free to post the pictures that "prove" it's possible as I'd like to see how one proves someone hasn't used Steroids or some other HGH based on a picture alone.

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Most muscle mags give you the impression that you can gain 50 to 100 pounds of muscle in a couple of years. All you need is a good exercise program, diet, and supplements (whatever the muscle mag promotes for that month...but truthfully you need to take steroids to get that big). I have not seen those kinds of gain myself. I have not seen those gains with my clients either. We did see good steady gains, but nothing like what preofessional bodybuilders achieved. So, how big can you grow? Casey Butt, Ph.D. wanted to find out (Men's Health, October 2011 issue). For 6 years, he measured drug free lifters to see what really can be done. What did he find out?
The biggest drug free bodybuilders weighed at best 190 pounds around 10% body fat and arms just under 17 inches. Most guys were smaller.


This is consistent with what I found. I train hard. Very hard. I have been doing it for 20 years. My weight at my peak is around 182 pounds, about 10% body fat (any lower and I lose some strength), with 16 1/4 inch arms. I look good, but not body builder good. Same with my consistent clients. In all my years, I only trained one really big, strong guy. He weighed over 200 pounds when I started working with him. Under my program, he got bigger and stronger faster than most guys can. He had good, physical talent...a lot of fast twitch fibers. This is rarer than you would think.
 
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Old February 28th, 2012, 10:09 PM   #13 (permalink)
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you do realize that steroids didnt exist pre-1950s right......... do a simple search youll find all kinds of images of very large very buff men as far back as the invention of photography....took me about 10 seconds on google....found quite a few from the 1800s (dont think they dabbled much with steroids back then)..... so Id suggest you help your Ph.D. friend find an education to match his title..... he obviously knows very little about human anatomy

now do most bodybuilders use steroids...... nobody could argue that....and if someone wrote a paper stating that the majority of large muscular people got that way due to steroids..... I wouldnt even argue that.... but the fact is that steroids are not required to be a very large extremely muscular person.... so you cant make a blanket statement that you cant get that way naturally....... its just not true
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Old February 28th, 2012, 11:35 PM   #14 (permalink)
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you do realize that steroids didnt exist pre-1950s right.........
From the previously cited source, "Anabolic steroids were first isolated, identified, and synthesized in the 1930s ..."
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Old February 29th, 2012, 12:17 AM   #15 (permalink)
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you do realize that steroids didnt exist pre-1950s right......... do a simple search youll find all kinds of images of very large very buff men as far back as the invention of photography....took me about 10 seconds on google....found quite a few from the 1800s (dont think they dabbled much with steroids back then)..... so Id suggest you help your Ph.D. friend find an education to match his title..... he obviously knows very little about human anatomy

now do most bodybuilders use steroids...... nobody could argue that....and if someone wrote a paper stating that the majority of large muscular people got that way due to steroids..... I wouldnt even argue that.... but the fact is that steroids are not required to be a very large extremely muscular person.... so you cant make a blanket statement that you cant get that way naturally....... its just not true
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Bert Goodrich, 1939 Mr America

5ft 10in
195lbs
chest 47in
waist 33in
arms 17in
forearms 14in
thighs 24in
calves 17in
neck 17in
wrists 7.6in
ankles 9.2in
That's 1939 MR AMERICA.... I guess he should've worked out harder. And please don't tell me that nutrition and technique has improved so drastically that it's added several inches to the average man. I can see it adding some size to the average man, but not to the extent we're seeing now.

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From the previously cited source, "Anabolic steroids were first isolated, identified, and synthesized in the 1930s ..."
Good find. I bet before the 30s they had other methods of introducing a growth hormone to their body. Although, considering that Coca-Cola was actually used as "medicine" (granted the cocaine laced variety) back in the day, there's no telling how effective/ineffective their muscle growth serums would be.
 
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Old February 29th, 2012, 04:41 AM   #16 (permalink)
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I cant believe were using wiki as a trusted source..... DOH

but since we are.... then I shall keep up to your standards

heres one that took all of 10 seconds to find..... Louis Cyr 1863-1912 (the golden age of steroid abuse)

Louis Cyr - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

his pictures certainly make him look puny....... I guess someone believes the 'average man' includes EVERY man

the 'average man' would have enough common sense to realize that since the dawn of time there have been people of all shapes and sizes......... some more robust than others....... some with a body better suited for muscle growth (regardless of their initial physical characteristics)...... the 'average height' of 'average man' is about 5'10"..... ask your Ph.D. pal is its impossible to be taller than 5'10" without external resources.... physical characteristics are different among EVERY human...... the 'average man' is not what were talking about

if I dig around on wiki long enough I can probably find some actual photographs of cavemen that are just as large as the cop in the photo....... dont have the time or patience to dig through this most trusted source that long though
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Old February 29th, 2012, 01:22 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I find it humorous (in a sad way) that you state you can't determine if the cop above is on steroids because you've "never seen his medical records", yet to try to back your claims, you insist that there are pictures online that prove you to be right.


Also, your last post is about someone's strength, not size. Please don't tell me you think both are the same, granted it might explain your incorrect views on this subject matter in general.
 
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Old February 29th, 2012, 05:29 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I find it humorous (in a sad way) that you state you can't determine if the cop above is on steroids because you've "never seen his medical records", yet to try to back your claims, you insist that there are pictures online that prove you to be right.


Also, your last post is about someone's strength, not size. Please don't tell me you think both are the same, granted it might explain your incorrect views on this subject matter in general.
I gave you a link to a picture online that was taken nearly 70 years before steroids existed (according to your dating)...... a picture that shows a man equal in size to the cop pictured above or larger....... I cant tell if the cop above took steroids because steroids existed in his lifetime and I havent seen his medical records...... I can EASILY deduce that the picture I linked is of someone who didnt take a product that did not exist in his lifetime...... my dog sitting beside me could figure this one out........ not exactly rocket science here.

The picture also clearly shows the mans physical size to be equal or greater to the picture above...... not exactly sure how you deduced his strength from the picture.... thats quite a feat

should we switch languages or something...... clearly english isnt working here
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Old February 29th, 2012, 05:56 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I cant believe were using wiki as a trusted source..... DOH ...
Your claim, " you do realize that steroids didnt exist pre-1950s right......... do a simple search ..." is not supported.

I provided a link to support that anabolic-androgen steroids (AAS), i.e. steroids did exist pre-1950.

You dismissed this source, even though the article had 129 references, but have not supplied any evidence to support your claim.

Are you unable or unwilling to "do a simple search" to support your claim ? I would venture to say unable, as your claim can not be supported.
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Old February 29th, 2012, 06:50 PM   #20 (permalink)
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even your source says steroids werent used in the US pre-1950s........ hard to argue with someone who agrees with me

yes "didnt exist" was an inaccurate portrayal......... should have stated were rarely used and even rarer for anyone outside of russian bodybuilding

but lets strawman the point

back to the original...... any Ph.D. who claims that its impossible to reach that size without steroids is a complete moron...... a fancy title rarely gives one intelligence

alas we are way off topic anyhow.... which is that this cop beat a man suffering from a disease....... guess I'll go read and see how its turning out

yep appears that the reprimand for the recording equipment was the only punishment..... guess we'll have to wait a few years for a lawsuit to find out how much the taxpayers have to pay the victim
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Old February 29th, 2012, 07:40 PM   #21 (permalink)
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even your source says steroids werent used in the US pre-1950s........ hard to argue with someone who agrees with me

yes "didnt exist" was an inaccurate portrayal......... should have stated were rarely used and even rarer for anyone outside of russian bodybuilding

but lets strawman the point

back to the original...... any Ph.D. who claims that its impossible to reach that size without steroids is a complete moron...... a fancy title rarely gives one intelligence

alas we are way off topic anyhow.... which is that this cop beat a man suffering from a disease....... guess I'll go read and see how its turning out

yep appears that the reprimand for the recording equipment was the only punishment..... guess we'll have to wait a few years for a lawsuit to find out how much the taxpayers have to pay the victim

Seems like you're the only one making absolute statements about the subject of bodybuilding. Who is the bigger moron, the person that does research and reaches a conclusion with the data to back up their conclusion or the person that just has a "gut feeling"? Yes nature throws us a curve from time to time, from 7' giants to growth stunted little people, that's not a valid argument for claiming these people are "naturally huge". You might as well argue that people are born with wings, since we have really tall people walking this planet.
 
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Old February 29th, 2012, 08:19 PM   #22 (permalink)
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so your argument would be essentially that because someone researched bodybuilders and determined that bodybuilders use steroids and transferred that reasoning to the conclusion that it would be impossible to reach a large body mass without the use of steroids.... despite the fact that we know there have been people throughout history with very large muscular body masses who have not used steroids.......... that he must be correct?

very logical conclusion indeed

never let the truth get in the way of a good story I guess

youre absolutely correct....... even though we know for absolute fact that there have been very large muscular men with huge body mass that have not used steroids...... its still impossible for any human to do it.... because you know a guy with a Ph.D. who said so

thanks for pointing out though that "nature throws us a curve from time to time"..... I guess even though you openly admit its possible...... you still claim its impossible

hard to argue with that logic...... FFS
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Old February 29th, 2012, 08:19 PM   #23 (permalink)
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... alas we are way off topic anyhow.... which is that this cop beat a man suffering from a disease....... guess I'll go read and see how its turning out

yep appears that the reprimand for the recording equipment was the only punishment..... guess we'll have to wait a few years for a lawsuit to find out how much the taxpayers have to pay the victim
I think this is more on topic:

Police Chief Magazine - View Article

FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin that stated, “Anabolic steroid abuse by police officers is a serious problem that merits greater awareness by departments across the country."
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Old March 1st, 2012, 02:16 AM   #24 (permalink)
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so your argument would be essentially that because someone researched bodybuilders and determined that bodybuilders use steroids and transferred that reasoning to the conclusion that it would be impossible to reach a large body mass without the use of steroids.... despite the fact that we know there have been people throughout history with very large muscular body masses who have not used steroids.......... that he must be correct?

very logical conclusion indeed

never let the truth get in the way of a good story I guess

youre absolutely correct....... even though we know for absolute fact that there have been very large muscular men with huge body mass that have not used steroids...... its still impossible for any human to do it.... because you know a guy with a Ph.D. who said so

thanks for pointing out though that "nature throws us a curve from time to time"..... I guess even though you openly admit its possible...... you still claim its impossible

hard to argue with that logic...... FFS

OK, a Yes or No question, did Barry Bonds use HGH/steroids?
 
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Old March 1st, 2012, 05:09 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Yes

given the evidence....... I would say yes he has used steroids

I couldnt be 100% certain because i havent seen any medical record that states he has.......... but in this case there are plenty of witnesses who have watched him inject himself....... and if memory serves me wasnt he in trouble for lieing to congress about the use of steroids

are we going to do this for every large athlete you can think of? gonna be a lot of pages to this thread

ok my turn.......... YES or NO....... did Louis Cyr use steroids
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Old March 1st, 2012, 12:23 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Yes

given the evidence....... I would say yes he has used steroids

I couldnt be 100% certain because i havent seen any medical record that states he has.......... but in this case there are plenty of witnesses who have watched him inject himself....... and if memory serves me wasnt he in trouble for lieing to congress about the use of steroids

are we going to do this for every large athlete you can think of? gonna be a lot of pages to this thread

ok my turn.......... YES or NO....... did Louis Cyr use steroids
I don't really know who the guy is and haven't found any measurements (arm/leg/chest etc) so I can't answer conclusively. Also, if he did, it had to be inadvertent since steroids hadn't been isolated by then.


So Barry Bonds is a professional athlete that GOT PAID to workout, and isn't even the size of some of the AVERAGE bodybuilders out there. What conclusion could one then reach? Let me repeat that, if Barry Bonds, who GOT PAID to workout and keep in shape, got paid MILLIONS and isn't even that big in comparison to average bodybuilders then something's not right. It's not as if Barry Bonds wasn't an athlete before he took steroids, but as an athlete that was PAID to workout, he still had to use steroids to get as big as he is, and he's still not as big as that cop posted above who DOESN'T get paid to workout and as a matter of fact, sits in a squad car for a lot of his time. Sounds suspicious to me.....
 
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Old March 5th, 2012, 01:52 PM   #27 (permalink)
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even your source says steroids werent used in the US pre-1950s........ hard to argue with someone who agrees with me ...
The cited source doesn't say steroids were not used in the U.S. pre-1950, just the opposite.

"Testosterone propionate is mentioned in a letter to the editor of Strength and Health magazine in 1938; this is the earliest known reference to an anabolic steroid in a U.S. weightlifting or bodybuilding magazine.[8]"
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Old March 5th, 2012, 06:39 PM   #28 (permalink)
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and having read the cited article you know what it says right?

does that article mention use of steroids in the US pre-1950........ or is it simply an article discussing steroids?

you dont know because you have no idea what the article says..... all you know is that there was an article written that mentioned steroids

so logically you have concluded that steroids were actively being used?

read further in your cited source where it discusses steroid USE in the US..... note it says in the 50s... late 50s if I recall without referrencing the wiki

please quote to me anywhere in your source where it says USE pre-1950..... you cannot......... you can cite a source that cites a source that mentioned the word steroids...... nothing about use or dates of use

all of which is neither here nor there to the topic of the discussion..... assuming we continue to stray from the real topic of the thread........ the topic of the sub-discussion is the possibility for a human to obtain a large mass without steroids....... some clown with a Ph.D. says its not....... while factual evidence indicates otherwise

now back to the original topic...... which was some cop beating some sick dude for no real reason
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Old March 6th, 2012, 01:27 AM   #29 (permalink)
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... does that article mention use of steroids in the US pre-1950........ or is it simply an article discussing steroids?

you dont know because you have no idea what the article says..... all you know is that there was an article written that mentioned steroids ...
The cited source reference referring to the injection of testosterone propionate (a steroid) in a US mass market body building publication in 1938 gives credence that there was knowledge and use to steroids prior to 1950's.

Read the reference, I assume you are able to do a search on testosterone propionate steroids US pre-1950 to get further references.

I don't understand your continued misrepresentation and hostility to the fact that steroids were used prior to 1950's in the US.
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Old March 6th, 2012, 05:48 AM   #30 (permalink)
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we have covered this several times already......... I have no hostility toward a specific date...... I have a hostililty toward lack of comprehension

I personally dont care if the date is 1938 or 1950..... we can use your date.... it does not nullify my point whatsoever

however if are going to argue so definitively over the date you should try to find a single source that verifies it........ your source CLEARLY states the opposite of what you are arguing in favor of

your source says the first time steroids was ever mentioned in an ARTICLE was 1938....... an article which may have said steroid use was epidimic among unicorns and leprechauns....... you cannot jump to a conclusion as to what the article said about steroids....... in fact I would argue the article might have said theres not 1 single case of steroid use in the US....... and you could not dispute that argument........ YOU HAVE NOT READ THE ARTICLE..... you only know that an article existed that had the word steroid in it........ there was also an article written in 1938 that said aliens like bowties...... is this also a proven fact?

your source also goes on to describe that post '38 steroid use was becoming popular among the russian athletes (which is what the article 99.9% most likely discussed) and throughout the 40s was widely used in russia

your source states that because of the widespread use throughout russia in the 40s the US teams decided to get on the bandwagon and start researching the issue

your source states that in the 50s drugs were designed for use in the US..... your source states that in the late 50's a drug was approved for use in the US and become standard practice

there is no logical way to read from your source and make the leap to steroid use in the US in 1938... you just cant derive that information from there...... unless youve decided not to let the facts get in the way of a good story

NONE of which has anything to do with my point...... so we will use your imaginary date which defies even your own sources

so if we work under the assumption that 1938 is when steroid use became instantly popular...... and for the sake of argument lets also assume that every living breathing soul from 1938 to the present has used steroids....... this still would not nullify my point....... you do not need steroids to achieve body mass....... history has proven time and again

I have shown pictures of people who were as large or larger than the above picture of a cop..... which were taken (even if we use 1938) a full 75 years prior to the existence of steroids.......... so my original point was that ANY person Ph.D. or otherwise who says you cannot achieve that size without the use of steroids doesnt have a clue what they are talking about...... and if there is some clown with a Ph.D. making these claims then he clearly bought his piece of paper because hes an idiot
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Old March 6th, 2012, 06:25 PM   #31 (permalink)
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we have covered this several times already......... I have no hostility toward a specific date...... I have a hostililty toward lack of comprehension

I personally dont care if the date is 1938 or 1950..... we can use your date.... it does not nullify my point whatsoever

however if are going to argue so definitively over the date you should try to find a single source that verifies it........ your source CLEARLY states the opposite of what you are arguing in favor of

your source says the first time steroids was ever mentioned in an ARTICLE was 1938....... an article which may have said steroid use was epidimic among unicorns and leprechauns....... you cannot jump to a conclusion as to what the article said about steroids....... in fact I would argue the article might have said theres not 1 single case of steroid use in the US....... and you could not dispute that argument........ YOU HAVE NOT READ THE ARTICLE..... you only know that an article existed that had the word steroid in it........ there was also an article written in 1938 that said aliens like bowties...... is this also a proven fact?

your source also goes on to describe that post '38 steroid use was becoming popular among the russian athletes (which is what the article 99.9% most likely discussed) and throughout the 40s was widely used in russia

your source states that because of the widespread use throughout russia in the 40s the US teams decided to get on the bandwagon and start researching the issue

your source states that in the 50s drugs were designed for use in the US..... your source states that in the late 50's a drug was approved for use in the US and become standard practice

there is no logical way to read from your source and make the leap to steroid use in the US in 1938... you just cant derive that information from there...... unless youve decided not to let the facts get in the way of a good story

NONE of which has anything to do with my point...... so we will use your imaginary date which defies even your own sources

so if we work under the assumption that 1938 is when steroid use became instantly popular...... and for the sake of argument lets also assume that every living breathing soul from 1938 to the present has used steroids....... this still would not nullify my point....... you do not need steroids to achieve body mass....... history has proven time and again

I have shown pictures of people who were as large or larger than the above picture of a cop..... which were taken (even if we use 1938) a full 75 years prior to the existence of steroids.......... so my original point was that ANY person Ph.D. or otherwise who says you cannot achieve that size without the use of steroids doesnt have a clue what they are talking about...... and if there is some clown with a Ph.D. making these claims then he clearly bought his piece of paper because hes an idiot

If I recall, I posted a link to someone that actually researched and you dismissed his claim as well, so I'm not exactly sure why you're so defensive about the references that have been posted.

At this point I'd say that you were in denial, but then you'd probably insist that I provide resources from differing sources with actual video footage and some sort of genetic evidence to prove my conclusion, so I'll just post a random quote that I found interesting... "The lady doth protest too much, methinks".....
 
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Old March 6th, 2012, 10:01 PM   #32 (permalink)
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nvm.... like banging your head on a wall

clearly you are correct

clearly its impossible to reach that size without the use of steroids

despite the fact that I have shown you a picture taken 75 years before (your date) steroids were ever used of a man as large or larger

but I digress...... they must have had photoshop in the 1860s or something

its clearly impossible for that man to have gotten as large as he did
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Old March 6th, 2012, 11:03 PM   #33 (permalink)
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nvm.... like banging your head on a wall

clearly you are correct

clearly its impossible to reach that size without the use of steroids

despite the fact that I have shown you a picture taken 75 years before (your date) steroids were ever used of a man as large or larger

but I digress...... they must have had photoshop in the 1860s or something

its clearly impossible for that man to have gotten as large as he did


I still fail to see how you think this guy is proof that people can get as large as some of today's bodybuilders.



I can google "Female Bodybuilder" and find SEVERAL images of women that look larger than this guy.

Here's one example....



Another example...



And yet another one....





So if this guy is your proof that people could get "that size" without steroids, and I've already shown you THREE contemporary women that make him look like tubby McNoMuscle, what does that tell you about steroids and growth hormone use today?
 
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Old March 7th, 2012, 05:32 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Below is a local officer that used to be somewhat a local celeb. I've seen studies that indicate you don't get that big on anything "natural" no matter how much you workout.



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I can google "Female Bodybuilder" and find SEVERAL images of women that look larger than this guy.
are we talking about muscle definition or body mass.......... strawman much?

you posted a pic of a cop with the statement that nobody can get that big without steroids..... (or a bulletproof vest under his uniform for that matter)....... then you made a statement in support of it that your Ph.D. buddy has written several papers after spending his life studying the issue and supporst the theory that its impossible to get this big without steroids

then I posted a link to a picture of a guy which counters your theory.... based on the picture of the cop which you used as your example of an impossible feat

so lets strawman a bit and post pictures of females who clearly have abused some type of drug to achieve their size..... DOH

I would never argue that nobody uses steroids...... its true that many if not most or all of todays body builders do use steroids.... and we can probably find thousands of pictures of people who have used steroids

what we are discussing here is you and your Ph.D. buddy's belief that its impossible to "get that big on anything natural" as referrenced to the picture of the cop above........ which is patently false

it is NOT true that you cannot achieve a large body mass without them..... as you see in the picture above of the worlds strongest man........ who has a very large body mass and never took steroids........ no he doesnt have bulging muscle definition (called muscle tone) ........ neither does barry bonds

please pick an argument and stick with it..... you cant just bounce around from strawman to strawman and expect to be taken seriously

interestingy enough..... and mind you I just took a cursory glance due to time this morning........ but your link seems to point to a site which describes how you can indeed (given the correct predisposition) obtain this size naturally........ and how to compete on the levels of steroid users naturally....... does not say its impossible
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Old March 7th, 2012, 06:09 AM   #35 (permalink)
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are we talking about muscle definition or body mass.......... strawman much?

you posted a pic of a cop with the statement that nobody can get that big without steroids..... (or a bulletproof vest under his uniform for that matter)....... then you made a statement in support of it that your Ph.D. buddy has written several papers after spending his life studying the issue and supporst the theory that its impossible to get this big without steroids

then I posted a link to a picture of a guy which counters your theory.... based on the picture of the cop which you used as your example of an impossible feat

so lets strawman a bit and post pictures of females who clearly have abused some type of drug to achieve their size..... DOH

I would never argue that nobody uses steroids...... its true that many if not most or all of todays body builders do use steroids.... and we can probably find thousands of pictures of people who have used steroids

what we are discussing here is you and your Ph.D. buddy's belief that its impossible to "get that big on anything natural" as referrenced to the picture of the cop above........ which is patently false

it is NOT true that you cannot achieve a large body mass without them..... as you see in the picture above of the worlds strongest man........ who has a very large body mass and never took steroids........ no he doesnt have bulging muscle definition (called muscle tone) ........ neither does barry bonds

please pick an argument and stick with it..... you cant just bounce around from strawman to strawman and expect to be taken seriously

interestingy enough..... and mind you I just took a cursory glance due to time this morning........ but your link seems to point to a site which describes how you can indeed (given the correct predisposition) obtain this size naturally........ and how to compete on the levels of steroid users naturally....... does not say its impossible
Now who's bouncing around? The study conducted by the link I posted said "most natural body builders don't realize such growth or size". Although, I am still going to contend that it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY to get to that size without introducing some artificial growth hormone to one's body. Feel free to believe whatever suits you. I for one have no problem believing that people are going to seek out a competitive edge whether it's legal or not if they can reach their goals. I am guessing you also believe that professional wrestling is real?
 
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Old March 7th, 2012, 07:28 PM   #36 (permalink)
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and again I will point out your words "most" and "highly unlikely" are far different from impossible and none

I have already said that I would agree.... you would be hard pressed to find anyone in the field of body building who doesnt use...... but again hard pressed is not "impossible" and most is not all

so if most is not all that means there are some who can do it without steroids.......... which means you are absolutely wrong .... in your own words
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Old March 8th, 2012, 12:09 AM   #37 (permalink)
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.... so if most is not all that means there are some who can do it without steroids.......... which means you are absolutely wrong .... in your own words
"Competitive bodybuilders claim that persons who won major titles 10, or even 5 years ago, would have little chance against today’s competitors. One bodybuilder claimed that today “the only way you can make even the beginnings of an amateur is by taking steroids.”

pg 77. http://archives.drugabuse.gov/pdf/monographs/102.pdf
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Old March 8th, 2012, 04:55 AM   #38 (permalink)
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you have the most wonderful sources for information......... isnt this like asking a crackhead if drugs make life more enjoyable

of course bodybuilders who openly use steroids are going to defend the use of steroids.... more rocket science

btw..... the guy expected to win this years Mr Olympia........... the same guy who won 6 years ago..... kind of blows their 5 year plan out the window
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Old March 8th, 2012, 05:13 AM   #39 (permalink)
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you have the most wonderful sources for information......... isnt this like asking a crackhead if drugs make life more enjoyable

of course bodybuilders who openly use steroids are going to defend the use of steroids.... more rocket science

btw..... the guy expected to win this years Mr Olympia........... the same guy who won 6 years ago..... kind of blows their 5 year plan out the window

CoolStory/SourcesBro.jpg.......
 
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Old March 19th, 2012, 08:37 AM   #40 (permalink)
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nvm.... like banging your head on a wall

clearly you are correct

clearly its impossible to reach that size without the use of steroids

despite the fact that I have shown you a picture taken 75 years before (your date) steroids were ever used of a man as large or larger

but I digress...... they must have had photoshop in the 1860s or something

its clearly impossible for that man to have gotten as large as he did


I didn't even address the flaw in your logic. The fact that you think steroids had to be isolated before anyone started using them is flawed. It's like me saying that no one used oxygen before it was isolated and identified. I'm sure some people used a growth hormone and just didn't realize that's what they were using.
 
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Old March 19th, 2012, 03:28 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Anyway, back to steroid use for law enforcement. Perhaps make an exception for law enforcement to use steroids under medical supervision ?
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