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Old February 4th, 2012, 06:05 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Susan G. Komen vs. Planned Parenthood

So its been pretty heavy in the news, but a brief synopsis in case you missed it: Susan G. Komen foundation announced they were ceasing funding of Planned Parenthood due to 1. A change in their grant procedure to avoid donating to organizations under investigation, and 2. To better serve women, they felt the money was better served going to organizations that actually give mammograms, instead of just pre-screenings (i.e. doctors/nurses just doing an examination using their hands) which is all that PP offers.

As a result of this, PP, and PP supporters, have gone ballistic claiming such things as it was only done for political reasons, or worse, that SGK is throwing poor women under the bus (SGK's website was actually hacked, and something along these lines replaced their motto), and they don't actually care about women's health. SGK has since apologized and said they will re-review the changes to their grant procedures as a result of this event.

And now to my views on the subject.

1. SGK is a private non-profit organization, they have a right to do whatever they want with their money, for whatever reason.

2. PP has no god-given right to the money, and the PP supporters actions regarding this, is nothing short of juvenile. Furthermore, after the disastrous year the pro-choice agenda has had this year (The Philly abortion clinic doctor, the investigations of pro-life groups finding dozens of un-reported instances of sexual abuse by PP clinics, not to mention the shady funding transfers which prompted the congressional investigation SGK claimed as a reason for the funding stoppage), they really need to lay low and out of the spotlight, not crucify a well-respected, previously non-controversial charity, over .1% of their yearly funding.

3.Which sounds more anti-women's health to you?

A. Deciding to give 500k to clinics who aren't under government investigation and who give actual mammograms instead of just pre-screenings...

B. Hiding dozens of cases of sexual assault, especially against young girls. (My favorite was a 13 year old girl who was raped (at least twice, probably more) and impregnated twice by her older foster brother, and the foster parents brought her in for a hush hush abortion each time to hide it. PP obliged).

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Old February 4th, 2012, 06:22 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I agree with you 100% and I don't care how many liberal minded folk consider us "neanderthals".
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Old February 4th, 2012, 02:21 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Hiding dozens of cases of sexual assault, especially against young girls. (My favorite was a 13 year old girl who was raped (at least twice, probably more) and impregnated twice by her older foster brother, and the foster parents brought her in for a hush hush abortion each time to hide it. PP obliged).
Do not put it all on Planned Parenthood. The foster parents were just as guilty of covering this up. If true, these "parents" need to have their kids taken away and the parents need to go to jail.
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Old February 4th, 2012, 02:29 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Do not put it all on Planned Parenthood. The foster parents were just as guilty of covering this up. If true, these "parents" need to have their kids taken away and the parents need to go to jail.
Don't get me wrong, I am not putting it all on them. But just pointing out, for making so much noise about women's health, you would think they would be screaming from the rooftops when something like that happened. Not giving an abortion to a 13 year old without notifying the authorities.
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Old February 4th, 2012, 02:35 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Inquirer Editorial: Komen leaders raced to the wrong conclusion

Context.
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Old February 4th, 2012, 03:00 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I wish the context you posted wasn't so obviously skewed in favor of one view point. So to be fair, here is some more context.

PP was formed on the basis of eugenics, perhaps the most despicable form of racism and bigotry ever practiced. And today they skew their numbers to look more than what they really are, which is an abortion clinic with some extra services on the side. They require/encourage each abortion patient to also undergo a bunch of free screenings/services, so they can report abortion is only a small percentage of their business, when in reality, the majority of women who visit a PP clinic are there for one reason. This info is from a previous doctor who used to work there. They use government money to fund every ounce of their operation other than abortion, all capital costs, non-abortion medical practices, etc, and use private donations to subsidize the abortions. This is how they avoid going against the law, but its really just an accounting trick. Add on top of that they are willing to look the other way, and not ask questions when questionable cases come in, and end up violating the law, and furthering child and sexual abuse. If I wanted to be a reputable charity dealing with women's health, I would try to avoid PP, because that is really not what they stand for. Its just what they pay lip service to.
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Old February 4th, 2012, 03:11 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Have you provided anything other than your own skewed view? Are you a woman? (I am) Have you ever needed/used PP's services? (I have) You obviously have a problem with abortion, full stop, and have little idea what you're talking about. Many, many women use PP as their PRIMARY source of healthcare.
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Old February 4th, 2012, 03:29 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Obviously my context was in response to the context you posted, as a view from the other side, since that is what context is, a picture of the surroundings of an issue. You contributed context from one side of the discussion, I contributed another.

To answer your questions, I am not a woman, and I have never used PP's services. I DO have a problem with abortion, and while I am predisposed to be against it, I have also experienced situations which only further my position in that direction. I have lost a good friend as a result of an abortion, and have had a doctor recommend abortion for my first child without as much as recommending a second opinion first (which his was incredibly wrong). While I do not have the first hand experience with PP that you do, Among the education I have recieved from people far more knowledgeable than I, I have read Abby Johnson's book regarding her time as a doctor and director of PP, and I would recommend it to any and all who are interested to gain a fuller understanding of what PP is about.

Furthermore, what sense does it make for a reputable charity (who's goal is to apparently further women's health) to drag another respected charity (who's goal is also women's health) through the gutter, to have their supporters cry out for the death of the charity, to deface their web page and slander them on wikipedia, over .1% of their yearly revenue? Charities don't do that. Activists do.
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Old February 4th, 2012, 03:35 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by melim View Post
Many, many women use PP as their PRIMARY source of healthcare.
now that we have obamacare to save us all this is no longer an issue...... all medical related issues can be handled by legitimate providers......... this is now 100% an abortion clinic plain and simple
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Old February 4th, 2012, 03:37 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Have you provided anything other than your own skewed view? Are you a woman? (I am) Have you ever needed/used PP's services? (I have) You obviously have a problem with abortion, full stop, and have little idea what you're talking about. Many, many women use PP as their PRIMARY source of healthcare.
Please do not play the "Are you a woman" card. Geeze Louise. Some of us guys know more about what effects abortion can often have on a woman than many women.

I have a problem with abortion because it is often used by SOME women as a birth control method.

An abortion should be a rare thing and counseling outside PP before an abortion should be a law.
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Old February 4th, 2012, 03:53 PM   #11 (permalink)
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now that we have obamacare to save us all this is no longer an issue...... all medical related issues can be handled by legitimate providers......... this is now 100% an abortion clinic plain and simple
I understand Obama care also covers cat fixing and hairball removal. I can hardly wait for Obama care to arrive.
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Old February 4th, 2012, 04:32 PM   #12 (permalink)
 
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1. SGK is a private non-profit organization, they have a right to do whatever they want with their money, for whatever reason.
end of discussion.

oh well...it should have been the end of discussion but too many people cried and SGK capitulated.

go go entitlement society!!! wooo hooo!!!
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Old February 4th, 2012, 04:54 PM   #13 (permalink)
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end of discussion.

oh well...it should have been the end of discussion but too many people cried and SGK capitulated.

go go entitlement society!!! wooo hooo!!!
The organization received lots of grant money. Some from community groups. I do not have the time to research every dollar but I feel certain some tax money ends up there.

The people will speak. They will donate or pull donations. This has upset many people and I am sure they are rethinking their PP decision. what i want to know is why they are scared of PP.
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Old February 5th, 2012, 12:30 AM   #14 (permalink)
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n the end they are going to lose far more dollars.......... if you believe the democrats in saying that only the republicans are rich.......... and lets assume for a minute that the majority of pro-babyslaughter people are democrats (which is a proven fact)............ lets look at how it all breaks out

since we know from what the democrats tell us.......... that being that republicans are all rich and greedy...... and democrats are all poor and generous............. and we have statistically proven time and again facts that republicans are the ones who donate to charities many times fold over dumotards.... then its pretty obvious what the results here will be

first lets analyze without talking rep vs dem...... you have a few groups of people:

those who are pro-choice and are 100% on board with SGK as long as they give money to the death chambers

those who are pro-life who had no clue that SGK was giving money to the slaughterhouse.... and will now withhold any donation to SGK because their money is killing babies

those who are pro-life who did not know where the money was going....... but dont care as long as the money is helping breast cancer research

those who are pro_whogivesaratsarse as long as I can donate some money and get a tax break

now of these groups based on idealology we can deduce that half dont really give any money since theyre obviously libtards............

of the other 2 groups that actually donate money......... we see that half really dont care as long as they get a tax break for donating money to a 'worthy' cause

that leaves us with 1 out of 4 ........ the group that is anti-slaughterhouse who will now withhold funding based simply on the fact that SGK has decided to support a human meat grinding facility

so lets look at how that breaks out.......... 1/4 of the people (thats being generous because statistically its closer to half) now will not support SGK based on their decision to grind fetuses

but lets remember this is 1/4 of the population of which half wouldnt shed a penny to save their own life let alone that of an unborn child...... so we can discount the other 50% and multiply 1/4 to 1/2 of total where 1/2 would have been 1 ( I know this is hard for democrats to figure out so if you need help with basic math feel free to PM me)

so now that we know (based on discounting the 50% of idiots) that 1/2 of the possible groups will not give a dime to SGK based on their belief that you shouldnt donate money to a company that lies and says they are using it for research while they are really sponsoring genocide....... we can easily deduce that SGK will be losing a vast majority of their donations (remembering that republicans are rich/bad while stupidocrats are poor/good ............and statistically only the rich/bad people dontate money while the poor/good people greedily keep their money)..... shuttering their doors within 3 years and any hope that they may have had with breast cancer research will quickly die along with the babies they pay to have murdered
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Old February 5th, 2012, 01:02 AM   #15 (permalink)
 
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now that is an interesting take!
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Old February 6th, 2012, 01:05 PM   #16 (permalink)
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My problem with this whole thing was that the Komen folks are taking money given to support cancer research and then turning around and giving it away to different organization(s) via grants.

When I give money to charities, i expect that money to be used by that charity, not given to a different charity / organization whose goals are different. (the notable exception is the United Way, which is exactly how they work). Naive, maybe. Unrealistic, not in my opinion.
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Old February 6th, 2012, 02:09 PM   #17 (permalink)
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My problem with this whole thing was that the Komen folks are taking money given to support cancer research and then turning around and giving it away to different organization(s) via grants.

When I give money to charities, i expect that money to be used by that charity, not given to a different charity / organization whose goals are different. (the notable exception is the United Way, which is exactly how they work). Naive, maybe. Unrealistic, not in my opinion.
Well they were giving them money to perform pre-screenings in their clinics. So I don't think its controversial in as far as SGK's motive to give them money.

I think the naive ones are those who donate to PP thinking their #1 issue is women's health, when it is actually abortion. Again I point to what PP and their supporters did to SGK. How is attempting to kill off a women's charity that recieves $420 million a year in contributions which it puts to use fighting breast cancer, furthering women's health? Over a measly $680,000, 0.1% of your revenue? It makes no sense if you try to view PP as a women's health advocate.

But if you view PP has an abortion advocate, well killing off a charity that is unrelated to their mission is no big deal, and 680k lost is a drop in the bucket. If they are an abortion advocate instead of a women's health advocate, then their hiding of sexual and child abuse is a little more logical, since they are just trying to show that they are even more discrete than the law allows, to protect your privacy, furthering the cause of abortion. Even if a few young girls have to suffer repeated abuses and their abusers are free to repeat their acts. Even if human traffickers can continue their sex slave businesses by bringing in the women they have smuggled from overseas to get a quiet abortion, and after a little healing time, return to action. These documented cases would horrify anyone whose goal in life was improving women's health. But PP allowed them to happen.

Need I say more?
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Old February 7th, 2012, 02:03 AM   #18 (permalink)
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end of discussion.

oh well...it should have been the end of discussion but too many people cried and SGK capitulated.

go go entitlement society!!! wooo hooo!!!
Why is it ok for a private organization to determine where their money goes to but when individual people want to determine where their money goes they are 'entitled'?

And what does abortion have to do with breast cancer screenings?
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Old February 7th, 2012, 05:05 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Why is it ok for a private organization to determine where their money goes to but when individual people want to determine where their money goes they are 'entitled'?

And what does abortion have to do with breast cancer screenings?
It is always OK for private organizations to do whatever they want to do, within reason. But when people contribute, they expect the organization to be in-line with certain desires, beliefs and expectations. When SGK supports PP, they in effect, support abortions. You asked, "And what does abortion have to do with breast cancer screenings?" Well, there is your answer.

When I donate, I do so with the understanding that my money will support specific causes. If the group ignores my wishes, I withdraw support.

Some people despise PP because PP is all for abortions. People give to SGK because they approve of what SGK is all about. Then they learn that SGK also supports abortions so the cash is withdrawn.

In this climate, these groups must learn to do what they are supposed to do and not screw with people and their donations. Those of us that donate have power and we do not like our money going to others we do not support.

I think we need to get rid of abortions. Row V. Wade needs to be overturned and then we need to establish rules for those rare cases where an abortion is perhaps a good idea. As it is now, abortions are just part of the price a woman pays for being careless.

If a woman decides to enjoy sex and she gets pregnant, she should be denied an abortion. She took a chance and she lost, so she must carry the child to term and go to jail if she seeks an abortion.

Yes, I am making this the woman's fault because it largely is. She can say no. The guy must be accountable as well, but barring changes in the law that require a man and woman to get married is passed, sorry, but it is all on the woman.
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Old February 12th, 2012, 02:08 AM   #20 (permalink)
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My take, it's damn sad when a non-profit organization fighting to save women from a disease that afflicts women regardless of age, race, or religion decides to put religious beliefs ahead of their fight for a cure.

If you follow the "thinking" of some people that call themselves "Christians", like Pat Robertson then you'd probably say that women who get breast cancer are getting it because they're sinners and are getting what they deserve. If you think I'm off-base then I ask you to consider what he said about Haiti and the U.S. after the 9/11 attacks and then try to convince me otherwise.

You'd think those types of views would be enough for SGK to want to keep religious influence at arm's reach. Besides, if you cure cancer aren't you really just playing God, which is a direct conflict of interest of the church?



And, for the record, when I heard that SGK was not going to help sponsor Planned Parenthood because of religious pressure, I actively refrained from buying products that had any SGK labeling on it.
 
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Old February 12th, 2012, 05:41 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Not to bring abortion into the debate but all I know is my wife took advantage of a lot of PPs services when she didn't have insurance and/or needed care when her primary/gyno was unavailable. I still think PP provides much needed care to women who have no other options. Just my 2cents.
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Old February 12th, 2012, 12:21 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I still think PP provides much needed care to women who have no other options.
as already mentioned ..... thanks to obamacare there are no women who have no options anymore....... so this relegates PP to 100% butcher shop
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Old February 13th, 2012, 12:33 PM   #23 (permalink)
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My take, it's damn sad when a non-profit organization fighting to save women from a disease that afflicts women regardless of age, race, or religion decides to put religious beliefs ahead of their fight for a cure.

If you follow the "thinking" of some people that call themselves "Christians", like Pat Robertson then you'd probably say that women who get breast cancer are getting it because they're sinners and are getting what they deserve. If you think I'm off-base then I ask you to consider what he said about Haiti and the U.S. after the 9/11 attacks and then try to convince me otherwise.

You'd think those types of views would be enough for SGK to want to keep religious influence at arm's reach. Besides, if you cure cancer aren't you really just playing God, which is a direct conflict of interest of the church?



And, for the record, when I heard that SGK was not going to help sponsor Planned Parenthood because of religious pressure, I actively refrained from buying products that had any SGK labeling on it.
I have not seen any official statements (or even reliable ones for that matter) spelling out religious pressures as the reason for the funding cut-off. It was more PP's handling of funds was questionable at best, and violating the law at worst, and SGK couldn't be sure their money was actually furthering breast cancer prevention and cure by contributing to PP (nevermind that birth control, PP's bread and butter, is a known carcinogen). On top of the fact that no mammograms were actually conducted using that money, since PP doesn't do mammograms. The religion aspect was brought up by the left to sully SGK's name, and to take the attention off of PP and their finances, and the fact that SGK's concerns were legitimate.
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Old February 14th, 2012, 06:16 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Love it:
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Old February 14th, 2012, 06:46 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Very clever.
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Old February 16th, 2012, 12:30 PM   #26 (permalink)
 
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as already mentioned ..... thanks to obamacare there are no women who have no options anymore....... so this relegates PP to 100% butcher shop
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Old February 16th, 2012, 01:29 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Tone down the inflammatory comments, please. Thank you. Next PSA brings consequences. Y'all get a "by" on this. Carry on .. in love and peace.
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Old February 24th, 2012, 02:28 AM   #28 (permalink)
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I have a problem with abortion because it is often used by SOME women as a birth control method.

An abortion should be a rare thing and counseling outside PP before an abortion should be a law.
Any facts to back your claim ? Perhaps it's based on denying females other forms of birth control ?

Abortion should be based as a medical decision between a female & health provider, any others who wish to intervene are highly suspect.
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Old February 24th, 2012, 02:39 AM   #29 (permalink)
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PP was formed on the basis of eugenics, perhaps the most despicable form of racism and bigotry ever practiced.
This claim is a bit over the top, can you offer any reputable support for your allegation ?
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Old February 24th, 2012, 03:09 AM   #30 (permalink)
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If a woman decides to enjoy sex and she gets pregnant, she should be denied an abortion. She took a chance and she lost, so she must carry the child to term and go to jail if she seeks an abortion.
My, my, "denied an abortion", what right do you have to control another persons medical decision ?

It appears from your post that a crime has been committed by a woman that enjoyed sex. How sad.
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Old February 24th, 2012, 05:40 AM   #31 (permalink)
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This claim is a bit over the top, can you offer any reputable support for your allegation ?
The Negro Project and Margaret Sanger

Have a gander at this. Explains what the founder of PP was involved in, and some quotes from her about it. As you will see, my comments were not over the top at all.
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Old February 24th, 2012, 12:29 PM   #32 (permalink)
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The Negro Project and Margaret Sanger

Have a gander at this. Explains what the founder of PP was involved in, and some quotes from her about it. As you will see, my comments were not over the top at all.
Believe a more balanced view can be found at Margaret Sanger - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia or http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Margaret_Higgins_Sanger.aspx

It's of note, from the wikipedia source, "And in her book Family Limitation, Sanger wrote that "no one can doubt that there are times when an abortion is justifiable but they will become unnecessary when care is taken to prevent conception. This is the only cure for abortions."[101]"
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Old February 24th, 2012, 03:57 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Believe a more balanced view can be found at Margaret Sanger - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia or http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Margaret_Higgins_Sanger.aspx

It's of note, from the wikipedia source, "And in her book Family Limitation, Sanger wrote that "no one can doubt that there are times when an abortion is justifiable but they will become unnecessary when care is taken to prevent conception. This is the only cure for abortions."[101]"
Perhaps, but even in Wikipedia, it references her eugenics past. Perhaps you don't agree, but the combination of her statements in favor of eugenics, coupled with her penchant for opening clinics in poor,black neighborhoods, just stinks to me.
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Old February 24th, 2012, 04:51 PM   #34 (permalink)
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It is always OK for private organizations to do whatever they want to do, within reason.

I never understood why conservatives have such a laissez faire approach when it comes to big business, but when it comes to individual freedoms, it's always, "Let me impose my morality on you". A corporation's immoral acts affect MILLIONS of people (i.e. the banking industry, the oil industry, the pharmaceutical industry), but for whatever reason when Loose Lucy wants to get contraceptives or an abortion the conservatives make such a fuss.

If the self-righteous ring-wing are so great then why don't they attack the immoral acts of big business the way they attack abortion clinics? I'm not talking about violent attacks btw, although that's also a great hypocrisy of the religious right as well, meet one immoral act with another immoral act.

If you want to impose your moral belief on someone then why don't you practice on an entity that has NO MORAL VALUES to begin with, large corporations?
 
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Old February 24th, 2012, 04:53 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Perhaps, but even in Wikipedia, it references her eugenics past. Perhaps you don't agree, but the combination of her statements in favor of eugenics, coupled with her penchant for opening clinics in poor,black neighborhoods, just stinks to me.
I would venture that her view of eugenics was widely supported in that time.

She did offer birth control education to all, regardless of ethnicity or income.

Your claim that she had a "... penchant for opening clinics in poor,black neighborhoods ..." is not supported.
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Old February 25th, 2012, 07:11 AM   #36 (permalink)
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I never understood why conservatives have such a laissez faire approach when it comes to big business, but when it comes to individual freedoms, it's always, "Let me impose my morality on you". A corporation's immoral acts affect MILLIONS of people (i.e. the banking industry, the oil industry, the pharmaceutical industry), but for whatever reason when Loose Lucy wants to get contraceptives or an abortion the conservatives make such a fuss.

If the self-righteous ring-wing are so great then why don't they attack the immoral acts of big business the way they attack abortion clinics? I'm not talking about violent attacks btw, although that's also a great hypocrisy of the religious right as well, meet one immoral act with another immoral act.

If you want to impose your moral belief on someone then why don't you practice on an entity that has NO MORAL VALUES to begin with, large corporations?
Very well said. It's simply the hypocrisy that exists with the Republican candidates (for the most part, excluding Ron Paul). They all want to be strict Constitutionalists, but they also want to impose some sort of moral agenda on you (religious or otherwise).
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Old February 25th, 2012, 12:38 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Very well said. It's simply the hypocrisy that exists with the Republican candidates (for the most part, excluding Ron Paul). They all want to be strict Constitutionalists, but they also want to impose some sort of moral agenda on you (religious or otherwise).
If you look at each of the GOP candidates, Mitt dabbled in greed/excess, Newt's hobbies include disrespecting the sanctity of marriage, past corruption charges, and an outright nasty personality, Santorum is such a newcommer but I think that's by design. Who knows what skeletons exist in his closet. I definitely think that if the GOP is serious about taking the white house they need to give Ron Paul a serious look.
 
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Old February 26th, 2012, 04:39 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Rowe V. Wade should be tossed out, the abortion pill killed and those that seek an abortion as well as doctors that perform them should pay a heavy price!!!
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Old February 27th, 2012, 11:44 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Rowe V. Wade should be tossed out, the abortion pill killed and those that seek an abortion as well as doctors that perform them should pay a heavy price!!!

Why stop there? Why not say anyone touching themselves is morally wrong? Why not say anyone THINKING impure thoughts should be hanged?

The Taliban also believes that women don't deserve an education, are to be completely submissive to their husbands, and shouldn't be allowed to vote. Just because it's YOUR moral code, it doesn't mean it should be EVERYONE'S moral code.

If more people that followed a mainstream religion would PRACTICE their morality instead of just PREACHING and trying to LEGISLATE their morality onto everyone else, this world might be better off.
 
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Old February 27th, 2012, 12:06 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Rowe V. Wade should be tossed out, the abortion pill killed and those that seek an abortion as well as doctors that perform them should pay a heavy price!!!

Now why should the doctor pay any price at all??? They're providing a medical service. That is all. A doctor's personal feelings on any subject should not dictate wich medical procedures they can (edit : want to) perform.

Now all 3 of my kids were accidents. Our method of birth control failed us both times. I heavily pushed towards abortion because, well, we were doing what we could to not conceive. Your opinion, or anyone else's should NOT come into play on a decision like this! We were not prepared to take care of any children, financially or mentally. I don't see how you can say we should have been forced to deal with it, even if we were taking precautions. We didn't want children. Our choice. Butt out.

Maybe we should take your cigarettes away as well, after all, it is MY opinion that they're wrong, right?

The thing with abortion is that people are against them for religious reasons and some think that they become a person at conception. Not everyone has those religious beliefs and the definition of a person before birth is debated. For that reason it should be left up to the individual to decide what is right for them.
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Old February 27th, 2012, 02:09 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Rowe V. Wade should be tossed out, the abortion pill killed and those that seek an abortion as well as doctors that perform them should pay a heavy price!!!
Believe an al-Qaeda member would have put it differently. A pill can't be killed, but those seeking an abortion, as well as doctors that perform them can. Is this the heavy price you seek ?
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Old February 27th, 2012, 02:43 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Now why should the doctor pay any price at all??? They're providing a medical service. That is all. A doctor's personal feelings on any subject should not dictate wich medical procedures they can (edit : want to) perform.

Now all 3 of my kids were accidents. Our method of birth control failed us both times. I heavily pushed towards abortion because, well, we were doing what we could to not conceive. Your opinion, or anyone else's should NOT come into play on a decision like this! We were not prepared to take care of any children, financially or mentally. I don't see how you can say we should have been forced to deal with it, even if we were taking precautions. We didn't want children. Our choice. Butt out.

Maybe we should take your cigarettes away as well, after all, it is MY opinion that they're wrong, right?

The thing with abortion is that people are against them for religious reasons and some think that they become a person at conception. Not everyone has those religious beliefs and the definition of a person before birth is debated. For that reason it should be left up to the individual to decide what is right for them.
The problem with your argument, is that this country was founded on the principles of Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. This is not a relgious belief, but an AMERICAN one. Life came first for a reason, and Liberty takes a back seat when it involves taking, or diminishing, human life, in ALL our laws, with the exception of ABORTION. It is the only act where one person's liberty is allowed to trump another person's life in our laws today. Science has already established that once conception occurs, the group of cells which make up the embryo have LIFE. And since never in the world's history has a woman given birth to something other than a human child, it can also by scientific reasoning be determined that the embryo is HUMAN, and therefore HUMAN LIFE.

So many of you are proclaiming that abortion is your right, since it is your body. But the human life created via conception is NOT your life, it belongs to another, regardless of how dependant it is on you and your body. So without once bringing in religion to the conversation, I have shown that abortion isn't just some violation of a religious belief, but is in fact a violation of the very fabric of our nation's founding principles.
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Old February 27th, 2012, 03:14 PM   #43 (permalink)
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. Science has already established that once conception occurs, the group of cells which make up the embryo have LIFE. And since never in the world's history has a woman given birth to something other than a human child, it can also by scientific reasoning be determined that the embryo is HUMAN, and therefore HUMAN LIFE.
As far as I know, those cells had life before conception. By your logic, if a pregnancy threatens the woman's life, she should deal with it because the thing inside of her can be defined as "human life" and it has rights.
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Old February 27th, 2012, 03:50 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Science has already established that once conception occurs, the group of cells which make up the embryo have LIFE.

Wow, so all those topics I've heard about when actual life takes place revolving around consciousness etc. they were just speculation?

And Kool Kat's post does have merit, spermatozoa have life qualities to them. Thus, does that mean that we are not to do anything sexual unless its end product is a child? Your argument just killed the entire porn industry.

kool kat also raises another valid point, since 2nd hand cigarette smoke is known to cause cancer, why haven't we eliminated it (someone's right to happiness is a conflict of interest to someone's right to life, right)? And to that effect, why stop there? That big company that's polluting our land, lets go ahead and end their "Happiness" since their actions are at odds with one's life. Lets also go ahead and put an end to the internal combustion engine since that produces a LOT of pollution as well.

As I've stated before, conservatives have no problem trying to mandate personal morality, but do nothing against the immoral acts in the name of greed. Just another hypocrisy of the religious right I guess.
 
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Old February 27th, 2012, 09:37 PM   #45 (permalink)
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... So many of you are proclaiming that abortion is your right, ...
It IS a right, get over it. No one is going to force you to have an abortion, so stop trying to deny others of their constitutionally protected right.

The key words here are "subsequent to viability".

Roe v. Wade

"(c) For the stage subsequent to viability the State, in promoting its interest in the potentiality of human life, may, if it chooses, regulate, and even proscribe, abortion except where necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother. Pp. 163-164; 164-165."
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Old February 27th, 2012, 10:04 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Obama care? I had colon cancer. I have a small, family run (since 1967) business. Business is off 70 %. Let go 1 employee. She now gets unemployment. Can't afford health insurance. Guess who is gonna die of colon cancer? Abortion? If I was pregnant, who the hell would pay for pre- natal care? Hospitalization to give birth? (I have 2 uteruses....uterii?...thus requiring c-sections....)Food for baby? All that giving birth requires? For the absolutes that say "give birth then put it up for adoption to a couple yearning for a baby...." What about ME? Who is paying for c-section? Anaesthesia for me? Pain meds for me? Care for my existing children while I give birth to this child who may be severely deformed because I had no pre-natal care? If child is so ill /deformed/handicapped, who will adopt it?

Explain. In plain language. If I get pregnant with a child I am not prepared for, (let's use rape as an example...) abortion (or pregnancy termination) is ECONOMICALLY better for me. If "cells" are damaged and will result in a severely handicapped human, abortion is ECONOMICALLY better for "society".

Emotionally, is a totally separate issue, and the Susan G. Komen issue isn't based on this. They did the right thing.
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Old February 29th, 2012, 08:52 AM   #47 (permalink)
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It IS a right, get over it. No one is going to force you to have an abortion, so stop trying to deny others of their constitutionally protected right.

The key words here are "subsequent to viability".

Roe v. Wade

"(c) For the stage subsequent to viability the State, in promoting its interest in the potentiality of human life, may, if it chooses, regulate, and even proscribe, abortion except where necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother. Pp. 163-164; 164-165."
I understand what the Supreme Court has previously ruled. But the Supreme Court has been wrong before:

Dred Scott v. Sanford decision:

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we are satisfied, upon a careful examination of all the cases decided in the State courts of Missouri referred to, that it is now firmly settled by the decisions of the highest court in the State, that Scott and his family upon their return were not free, but were, by the laws of Missouri, the property of the defendant; and that the Circuit Court of the United States had no jurisdiction, when, by the laws of the State, the plaintiff was a slave, and not a citizen.
The problem with Supreme Court opinions, is they are made by men (and women), who are not infallible. I can't argue, abortion IS a right, for now. But slavery was also a right, as was treating blacks as an underclass in our country's past. Incredibly and morally wrong, but a RIGHT. To say for me to "get over it" is to dismiss the history of this country, and that we should accept the status quo, without considering that perhaps what we as a country consider is a right, is instead a tragic wrong inflicted on a group of people who are unable to protect themselves.
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Old February 29th, 2012, 09:28 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Believe an al-Qaeda member would have put it differently. A pill can't be killed, but those seeking an abortion, as well as doctors that perform them can. Is this the heavy price you seek ?
Yes! Off with their head(s)
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Old February 29th, 2012, 09:29 AM   #49 (permalink)
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But slavery was also a right, as was treating blacks as an underclass in our country's past. Incredibly and morally wrong, but a RIGHT.
My slaves are highly paid Harvard grads. And they are white, too.
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Old February 29th, 2012, 09:35 AM   #50 (permalink)
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The problem with your argument, is that this country was founded on the principles of Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. This is not a relgious belief, but an AMERICAN one.
We were founded on religious freedom. If you did not believe in God, you would have found life to be quite difficult. The founding fathers definitely professed a belief in God. They believed in God Given rights.
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