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Old March 22nd, 2010, 09:59 PM   #51 (permalink)
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I did my research, maybe you need to re-check your sources? WWII, government spending and government programs are what pulled our country out of the depression.
Wasn't that also about the time of the first presidency to be unable to balance the budget? I don't believe people living in glass houses should through rocks but since when do two wrongs equal a right?

fyi I'm going to bed so don't get upset if I don't respond immediately.

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Old March 22nd, 2010, 10:00 PM   #52 (permalink)
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via Wonkette



Did you know that your precious Death Panel legislation includes a mandate to resurrect the corpse of Karl Marx thrice yearly, or else face a maximum penalty of one percent of your income plus ten minutes in a dark room with John Boehner? Look at the President chortling as he zaps Marx to life! He probably didn’t even wash his hands, just put on those rubber gloves and set to zappin’, just like a Democrat.

Read more at Wonkette: Wonkette : A Children’s Treasury Of Terrifying Photos About Health Care!
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 10:06 PM   #53 (permalink)
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also via Wonkette:



No one should be scared about this health care bill, except for this elderly lady, who thinks the government will show up to her door Monday morning and murder her. Sucks to be her, because she’s right! READ THE BILL.
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 10:15 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Just saw Ed Rendell on O'Reilly quoting Marx. This line of thought come so easy to these people that this moron didn't even realize what he was saying. Bill challenged him and told him that it's the entitlement welfare society mentality that is angering people and Rendell responded by saying they will all pay in too "According to their means".

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" is Marx's famous quote and this tool just spits it out like it's an everyday American slogan.

These people are insane and dangerous.
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 10:28 PM   #55 (permalink)
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k im going to cryotank myself, someone wake me when it's all good and texas has ceded? thanks, i might wait till i get my SS though so i can atleast be cool when frozen
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 10:33 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Don't forget the beer, surely it will have been deemed unhealthy and illegal by then.


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k im going to cryotank myself, someone wake me when it's all good and texas has ceded? thanks, i might wait till i get my SS though so i can atleast be cool when frozen
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 10:35 PM   #57 (permalink)
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if texas cedes ill move to texas
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 10:36 PM   #58 (permalink)
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also via Wonkette:



No one should be scared about this health care bill, except for this elderly lady, who thinks the government will show up to her door Monday morning and murder her. Sucks to be her, because she’s right! READ THE BILL.
When you simply cut $500 billion from anything, that something tends to decrease. Cut $500 billion from Medicare (as the bill does) and you have a decline in available funds and therefore a decline in care quality.

Take it literally if you want, but you people need to start looking at the long term effects of this bill. Newsflash: you can't spend money you don't have. We've been doing it and its only a matter of time before countries stop lending to us.

I fear this healthcare bill because is fiscally unsustainable. Not that the facts matter to liberals anyway.
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 10:42 PM   #59 (permalink)
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ahhhhh good man, damn good words of wisdom if i ever heard em'

now you got me thinkin what else i'll need that won't be around when i wake up!
*cool phone
*beer
***** it that's good enough
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 10:59 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Yeah, and soon they will outlaw sex like in demolition man, because it can spread std's
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 11:20 PM   #61 (permalink)
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This is the source of the fear from those of us that don't quite believe the sun sets and rises in the rear of the chosen one.

When you hand over blanket authorization that allows a bureaucracy (that hasn't even been created yet) to create the rules as they go you open up the possibility of the limitation of almost any substance, product or behavior based on it's effect to "health" as they have defined by some obscure method or supposed research. In doing so you negate the basic legislative and legal processes that are the foundation of our intended form of government.

The most frightening part is that with the Nationalization of the auto industry, financial industry, and now health (read individual) and education system, this Administration has achieved in one year what an entire super power could never dream of during the so called cold war.
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 11:24 PM   #62 (permalink)
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if texas cedes ill move to texas
It has actually been mentioned by the Gubernatorial candidates...we can only hope!
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 12:42 AM   #63 (permalink)
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Did the healthcare forget that there are still about 20% of americans not working!!!? And what are they going to do show up at there door steps saying you owe us $700 for not having insurance! that guy/gal should tell them he has a nice casio watch will that do? I just don't understand why this at least couldn't wait until you could have worked on stabilizing jobs for people and get them working. Maybe even give them more time to look over the bill and make some changes and get more ideas from both sides!
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 01:04 AM   #64 (permalink)
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hahahahhahaha joint partison effort LMAO ROFL God i wish
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 01:59 AM   #65 (permalink)
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The people need to revolt.... civil war even....
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 07:42 AM   #66 (permalink)
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I'll go through it again. Maybe this time it will sink in. You can verify these facts by - here's a novel idea - actually reading the bill!

It really gets my goat when people don't even bother reading the bill (or even looking at a summary of it - how many people commenting here actually read it?) but have a very strong opinion to spout off about it. I'm not defending the bill - I'm defending the idea that as an American citizen, you have a responsibility to understand the legislature that's being passed.

"IT'LL RAISE MY TAXES!!! WAHHHH! gurgle"

Not unless you make over $200,000 a year (at which point you'll see a .9% tax increase - big whoop, Scrooge McDuck), or you pay $10,200 or more a year for your own insurance or $27,500 for a family (adjusted for inflation). The limits for retirees or people in high-risk professions will be even higher. Nobody NEEDS $10,000 insurance - those plans are ways of getting country club memberships and massages without paying tax on that money (you know, wealthy people who abuse the system). This bill fixes that.

"SOCIALIZED MEDICINE WAAAUGH!!!"

The public option component is very limited in scope and is probably the least important part of this bill. It's a catch-all way to provide for people that just can't get insurance otherwise. Employers are getting so many tax incentives to provide insurance under this bill that it'd be idiotic not to offer insurance to employees. The public option basically lets people who have no other option (the self-employed, unemployed, etc.) buy into Medicare. They'll get a tax credit to help defray the costs, but for all intents and purposes it'll be their money paying for it, not yours.

"TIGHTER GOVERNMENT REGULATION ON INSURANCE PROVIDERS WILL DRIVE UP PREMIUMS!!! BLURGH BLAGH!"

Well, I'm with you on that. But tighter regulation needed to happen, and it was going to happen regardless of who's running the show in Washington. It's insane how little regard insurance companies actually have for their customers' health, and any way they can find to screw you, they will. This bill will hopefully prevent some of that.

The level of ignorance here is really astounding and it's hard to argue with multiple people who don't understand the most basic aspects of this bill. I'm embarrassed to be American when there are folks who will passionately argue about this bill without actually having read it. The America I belong to is the intelligent and civil America that informs itself about things before it opens it's mouth. Not the bumbling dimwitted America that will argue a bill it hasn't even read and regurgitates it's talking points from uneducated buffoons like Beck and Limbaugh whose highest grade completed was the 12th grade. They're using you like a carpenter uses a hammer - you're a tool. I don't know about you but where I come from the idiots in school were ridiculed, not put on a pedestal and followed.

Please think for yourself. Start by reading the bill and coming up with your own thoughts about it.
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 07:44 AM   #67 (permalink)
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The people need to revolt.... civil war even....
*yawn*

Spare us your empty threats.
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 07:56 AM   #68 (permalink)
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Here's an idea. Let's go further and make some of you happy by creating a perfect libertarian society:

Private fire departments: Why should I pay if your house is on fire. I was responsible and didn't let a fire affect my house. If your house or business is on fire, then you pay the cost to put it out.

Private security firms replace police departments: I carry around a can of mace and a gun to protect myself. If we all did that, criminals would be too afraid to commit crimes and police would be unnecessary. If your house is broken into or you're attacked, then pay a security firm yourself to investigate. Reckless driving can sort itself out - you do it too much, you'll probably kill yourself. It's all about personal responsibility. I don't want the government patrolling the streets and checking up on what I'm doing.

Employer-based education: If you have a job, then they can subsidize your child's education and you can afford to put your child in school. This can reduce the number of births by people not economically fit to have children! If you lose your job, you can pay COBRA for a few months. When COBRA runs out, you can take the kid out of school until you get a job again or pay $2000/month for him/her to stay in. You can opt out of the system altogether - an estimated 30-40% of children would be without any formal education, but we'll be out of the tyranny of government-controlled education. Take that China! If it makes sense for a life-or-death situation like health care, then it should make sense for all issues.

Eliminate Libraries: They're like Napster for the publishing world (books and copyrighted material for free?). I don't read, so why should I pay for someone else's access to literature and information? Go to Amazon if you want to read or watch Fox News if you want information. If you can't afford to buy a book or a cable subscription, then you don't belong in my neighborhood anyway.

And what's this crap with national parks? Wasn't that from Theodore Roosevelt's time (a guy who used 'bully' as a primary staple of his vocabulary)?! I hate nature and I resent that I'm paying for someone to take a hike or go camping for the weekend when they should be working. National Parks equals rangers, which equals a bigger government! Not to mention all the oil that may or may not be under that land.

How about public transportation? Why should I pay for someone to take a train or a bus? As long as my roads are paved and I can drive my SUV to work let the public transportation system sustain itself.

And why is my tax money paying for your roads to be paved? I don't use the same roads as you and it's not my fault that your Hyundai can't go off-road. If you don't like it, then go to Canada. I'm sure they have smooth roads where you'll have to wait in traffic for hours while my $75,000 SUV can go wherever it wants to bypass traffic.

Maybe we also need to privatize fire hydrants, water supply and fire trucks. If the matter is a simple as a cat up a tree, the following does not apply:

1. If there is a fire, the rightful fire hydrant owner can charge a fee (the free market will sort this out) so that the privately owned fire trucks can use the hydrant.

2. The water coming out of the hydrant will be owned by the privately held water company. They can put a meter inside the hydrant and charge by the size of the fire.

3. The government should not restrict the possibility of the water owner, the hydrant owner and the fire truck owner all being owned by the same monopoly or cartel.

4. Ownership of the street area used by the truck should also be private. A parking fee will be assessed (the free market should sort this out too.)

I could keep all my precious monies for myself if we get rid of all this wasteful spending!

Scary and expensive place the world in which some of you want the rest of us to live.
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 08:54 AM   #69 (permalink)
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W's speech writer David Frum's take on the political ramifications of the passage of health care:

Quote:
Conservatives and Republicans today suffered their most crushing legislative defeat since the 1960s.

It’s hard to exaggerate the magnitude of the disaster. Conservatives may cheer themselves that they’ll compensate for today’s expected vote with a big win in the November 2010 elections. But:

(1) It’s a good bet that conservatives are over-optimistic about November – by then the economy will have improved and the immediate goodies in the healthcare bill will be reaching key voting blocs.

(2) So what? Legislative majorities come and go. This healthcare bill is forever. A win in November is very poor compensation for this debacle now.

So far, I think a lot of conservatives will agree with me. Now comes the hard lesson:

A huge part of the blame for today’s disaster attaches to conservatives and Republicans ourselves.

At the beginning of this process we made a strategic decision: unlike, say, Democrats in 2001 when President Bush proposed his first tax cut, we would make no deal with the administration. No negotiations, no compromise, nothing. We were going for all the marbles. This would be Obama’s Waterloo – just as healthcare was Clinton’s in 1994.

Only, the hardliners overlooked a few key facts: Obama was elected with 53% of the vote, not Clinton’s 42%. The liberal block within the Democratic congressional caucus is bigger and stronger than it was in 1993-94. And of course the Democrats also remember their history, and also remember the consequences of their 1994 failure.

This time, when we went for all the marbles, we ended with none.

Could a deal have been reached? Who knows? But we do know that the gap between this plan and traditional Republican ideas is not very big. The Obama plan has a broad family resemblance to Mitt Romney’s Massachusetts plan. It builds on ideas developed at the Heritage Foundation in the early 1990s that formed the basis for Republican counter-proposals to Clintoncare in 1993-1994.

Barack Obama badly wanted Republican votes for his plan. Could we have leveraged his desire to align the plan more closely with conservative views? To finance it without redistributive taxes on productive enterprise – without weighing so heavily on small business – without expanding Medicaid? Too late now. They are all the law.

No illusions please: This bill will not be repealed. Even if Republicans scored a 1994 style landslide in November, how many votes could we muster to re-open the “doughnut hole” and charge seniors more for prescription drugs? How many votes to re-allow insurers to rescind policies when they discover a pre-existing condition? How many votes to banish 25 year olds from their parents’ insurance coverage? And even if the votes were there – would President Obama sign such a repeal?

We followed the most radical voices in the party and the movement, and they led us to abject and irreversible defeat.

There were leaders who knew better, who would have liked to deal. But they were trapped. Conservative talkers on Fox and talk radio had whipped the Republican voting base into such a frenzy that deal-making was rendered impossible. How do you negotiate with somebody who wants to murder your grandmother? Or – more exactly – with somebody whom your voters have been persuaded to believe wants to murder their grandmother?

I’ve been on a soapbox for months now about the harm that our overheated talk is doing to us. Yes it mobilizes supporters – but by mobilizing them with hysterical accusations and pseudo-information, overheated talk has made it impossible for representatives to represent and elected leaders to lead. The real leaders are on TV and radio, and they have very different imperatives from people in government. Talk radio thrives on confrontation and recrimination. When Rush Limbaugh said that he wanted President Obama to fail, he was intelligently explaining his own interests. What he omitted to say – but what is equally true – is that he also wants Republicans to fail. If Republicans succeed – if they govern successfully in office and negotiate attractive compromises out of office – Rush’s listeners get less angry. And if they are less angry, they listen to the radio less, and hear fewer ads for Sleepnumber beds.

So today’s defeat for free-market economics and Republican values is a huge win for the conservative entertainment industry. Their listeners and viewers will now be even more enraged, even more frustrated, even more disappointed in everybody except the responsibility-free talkers on television and radio. For them, it’s mission accomplished. For the cause they purport to represent, it’s Waterloo all right: ours.
Waterloo | FrumForum
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 08:56 AM   #70 (permalink)
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It must be pure bliss to be so naive. To truly believe that the ultimate goal of this bill has anything to do with your health care is a joke. Do you truly believe that these people care about your well being?
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 09:11 AM   #71 (permalink)
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You guys are missing the point entirely. Really.

This bill is not financially sustainable, unless you rob rich people.
If people who are sucessful get stripped of their money, just because they have it, there is little or no incentive to be productive. No productivity we can kiss fancy new inventions like the phone your using, goodbye.

No new innovation leads to consumers not spending as much, as they already have what's on the market, and noone has made anything new, because there is no reason to.

Less spending, means economic collapse.

Now I've dumbed that down as much as possible for you lefties who do not understand the concept of free enterprise.

Government should not interfere with the private sector, unless it is becoming tryant like and monopolistic..

Governement should NEVER EVER EVER EVER compete with the private sector.

What you obama supporters are failing to see, this is another step towards the socialissm,bwhich in turn is a step towards communism. People being ok with the government controlling so many aspects of our lives is mind bogglingly stupid.
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 09:13 AM   #72 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrletternumber View Post
I'll go through it again. Maybe this time it will sink in. You can verify these facts by - here's a novel idea - actually reading the bill!

It really gets my goat when people don't even bother reading the bill (or even looking at a summary of it - how many people commenting here actually read it?) but have a very strong opinion to spout off about it. I'm not defending the bill - I'm defending the idea that as an American citizen, you have a responsibility to understand the legislature that's being passed.

"IT'LL RAISE MY TAXES!!! WAHHHH! gurgle"

Not unless you make over $200,000 a year (at which point you'll see a .9% tax increase - big whoop, Scrooge McDuck), or you pay $10,200 or more a year for your own insurance or $27,500 for a family (adjusted for inflation). The limits for retirees or people in high-risk professions will be even higher. Nobody NEEDS $10,000 insurance - those plans are ways of getting country club memberships and massages without paying tax on that money (you know, wealthy people who abuse the system). This bill fixes that.

"SOCIALIZED MEDICINE WAAAUGH!!!"

The public option component is very limited in scope and is probably the least important part of this bill. It's a catch-all way to provide for people that just can't get insurance otherwise. Employers are getting so many tax incentives to provide insurance under this bill that it'd be idiotic not to offer insurance to employees. The public option basically lets people who have no other option (the self-employed, unemployed, etc.) buy into Medicare. They'll get a tax credit to help defray the costs, but for all intents and purposes it'll be their money paying for it, not yours.

"TIGHTER GOVERNMENT REGULATION ON INSURANCE PROVIDERS WILL DRIVE UP PREMIUMS!!! BLURGH BLAGH!"

Well, I'm with you on that. But tighter regulation needed to happen, and it was going to happen regardless of who's running the show in Washington. It's insane how little regard insurance companies actually have for their customers' health, and any way they can find to screw you, they will. This bill will hopefully prevent some of that.

The level of ignorance here is really astounding and it's hard to argue with multiple people who don't understand the most basic aspects of this bill. I'm embarrassed to be American when there are folks who will passionately argue about this bill without actually having read it. The America I belong to is the intelligent and civil America that informs itself about things before it opens it's mouth. Not the bumbling dimwitted America that will argue a bill it hasn't even read and regurgitates it's talking points from uneducated buffoons like Beck and Limbaugh whose highest grade completed was the 12th grade. They're using you like a carpenter uses a hammer - you're a tool. I don't know about you but where I come from the idiots in school were ridiculed, not put on a pedestal and followed.

Please think for yourself. Start by reading the bill and coming up with your own thoughts about it.

yea lemme know when you finish 3,000 plus pages of legislation, ethics isn't involved in our government any more and you know it, stop acting like such a smart ass and start thinking for yourself... the people who voted on it didn't even have time to read it
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 09:35 AM   #73 (permalink)
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yea lemme know when you finish 3,000 plus pages of legislation, ethics isn't involved in our government any more and you know it, stop acting like such a smart ass and start thinking for yourself... the people who voted on it didn't even have time to read it
X2 I'm with ya.
This clown "mrletternumber" either works for the Gov. wrote part of this legistation or stands to benefit from this bill directly. 65% of America opposses this bill (the hard working middle class) take out the 10% of uninsured who will benifit (for awhile anyway) that leaves 25%, take out 7% for the rich (we'll leave out the Bankers and Insurance exec's who could care less, they allready got their handout) which leaves 18%,, of those left, they either work for the goverment or stand to benefit greatly.

I'm willing to bet that somewhere buried in that 3000 page bill is the words "we dont care what you think and will raise the cost of this bill at anytime and any way we want" or some version of Lawyer speak.
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 09:44 AM   #74 (permalink)
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if this health care is so great why don't the democraps drop their gov golden spoon healthcare plan and take this? I will tell you why because they know it sucks ass like every other program they have done in years past.

also how is a majority of small businesses suppose to pay for this to offer their workers. when they don't have the funds in the first place. this will make more small businesses go under and unemployment go higher and then I and everyone else pay even higher taxes to cover them.

since when does the rich ever pay anything the gov wants. after all its their money that got those idiots into office. when its the middle class which is left holding the bill as usual. the rich knows to many loopholes to keep a majority of their money safe.

again medicare is a big flop, medicaid is another one. why not try and fix those two before taking on an even bigger flop.

has obama even read the 3,000 page bill. bet ya not. bet he got a summery
 
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 09:47 AM   #75 (permalink)
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W's speech writer David Frum's take on the political ramifications of the passage of health care
Such is rare, the conservative with a brain, a sense of civility, and humility.

What cracks me up is how batshit crazy everyone on the right is going on about this bill yet...

wait for it...Frum alluded to it...

Most of this bill is exactly what Republicans were asking for back in the 90's!!!

As Frum said:

Quote:
But we do know that the gap between this plan and traditional Republican ideas is not very big. The Obama plan has a broad family resemblance to Mitt Romney’s Massachusetts plan. It builds on ideas developed at the Heritage Foundation in the early 1990s that formed the basis for Republican counter-proposals to Clintoncare in 1993-1994.
Going on that, it can be very successfully argued that the Republicans got "their" health care proposal (it was functionally the 1994 Heritage Foundation proposal in every meaningful way), yet they fought it every step of the way, made no meaningful effort to shape it other than to demonize it as "socialism", and divorced themselves from being able to claim any credit for it. For Republicans, this will be remembered for the incident in which they allowed Democrats to steal their ideas, make them fight them, and make them look like idiots.

The GOP loved it in 1994 when it was the Heritage Foundation's response to Clintoncare. It's hilarious to watch the gyrations as Heritage is now calling for repeal. Good luck with that. Try selling bringing back pre-existing conditions to the American people. Watching the Republicans during this whole affair was like watching an episode of the Keystone Kops. Bumbling idiots.

This will be a 40 year burden on the Republican party.

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I'm willing to bet that somewhere buried in that 3000 page bill is the words "we dont care what you think and will raise the cost of this bill at anytime and any way we want" or some version of Lawyer speak
Duh. How stupid are you? Read a book with more words than pictures please. Or better yet, read the bill!
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 09:58 AM   #76 (permalink)
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That's just it, this bill is not financially sustainable. It's the beginning of foot in the door policies that will cause this monster to grow. Already some dem is trying to "add" the public option back in after it was taken out to gain votes.

Also, for the record I don't believe the US will see another civil war. The first was FAR too bloody and face it the conservatives have the guns...so there isn't gonna be any resistance. In large the military is conservative. That being said I doubt anything is going to happen for the sole reason that there are far too many arm chair commandos and not enough patriots that will organize. Remember to overthrough the government you will need public support my experiance is that there are actually a handful of Americans that want this bill MOST have no clue why. Worse then that is the large percent of Americans that do not participate in politics at all. I'd say less based on what I see in my area less then 20% of the people I run into are politically active and educated. By educated I don't mean school either, I mean history. Either way talk of revolt is not productive right now. When it is I will pack my scary black rifles and join the fight.
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 10:03 AM   #77 (permalink)
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I'm willing to bet that somewhere buried in that 3000 page bill is the words "we dont care what you think and will raise the cost of this bill at anytime and any way we want" or some version of Lawyer speak.
I got the joke....
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 10:18 AM   #78 (permalink)
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If people who are sucessful get stripped of their money, just because they have it, there is little or no incentive to be productive. No productivity we can kiss fancy new inventions like the phone your using, goodbye.

No new innovation leads to consumers not spending as much, as they already have what's on the market, and noone has made anything new, because there is no reason to.

Less spending, means economic collapse.


Over the course of our nation's history, taxes have gone up, taxes have gone down, and none of these things have happened. People don't stop innovating because their taxes go up. It hasn't happened in the past, and it won't happen now, even if taxes do go up.

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Governement should NEVER EVER EVER EVER compete with the private sector.
Why not? The government and the private sector already compete on numerous different fronts, with shipping and education being the most obvious examples. Frankly, the competition in both of those realms has resulted in more choice and better pricing for consumers. Oh, and the innovation you were speaking of earlier. I'm not sure I understand why that's a bad thing.
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 10:36 AM   #79 (permalink)
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Duh. How stupid are you? Read a book with more words than pictures please. Or better yet, read the bill!
Read the Bill! tell me you assclown,,isn't that what we elect our reps for? to read the bill for us, why most of them have addmitted to not reading or understanding it and yet they still voted for it. That is exactly what is wrong with Gov today, they think they know whats best for us. Read the bill, talk about a yawn, hell I bet there's no pictures!
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 11:09 AM   #80 (permalink)
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I love how people think we are giving poor people healthcare. We are giving people health insurance. People believe that people with pre-existing health conditions will suddenly be covered. Guess what: In some states they already are. If you have coverage in Virginia, any insurance company you choose has to cover you. Of course the price ceiling on the insurance you are entitled to is still pretty high. This bill is remarkably silent on this as well.

This bill is not really going to help that many people, it is just going to cost a lot of money. There are a bunch of ignorant people who bang the drum about doing the right thing, well it isn't being done here. People want to make it a moral argument, but it is just a bunch of nonsense.

What is even better is that the same people who say that the State can do all of this for us are pointing to government programs as shining examples of how our government can improve our health. They are pointing to Medicare and the VA. Both of these programs are epic failures overall with some successes that make these people feel as if their argument is supposted. If these programs are so great, why are they being castrated in an effort to reduce waste?

Another shining example of government service people like to put on a pedestal is the postal service. "For a nominal fee, I can send a letter across the country in 3 days!" They always trivialize the recounts of lost mail (even when an alarming number of carriers have been caught stealing mail or just leaving it in their attic because it was to bothersome to actually deliver.) This is what our government can do for us and you are a bad person if you want some corporation to deliver your mail for you. How dare you pay Fedex or UPS to get your package there in a day? What? You expect reliability? Now, you are just unamerican. The postal service is the best thing the government offers... Yeah? Well, why is its budget so grossly overrun that they can't even think of a way of sustaining themselves without reducing the days of service by one?

Politicians love to use government programs as a bargaining chip for demanding more taxes or getting rid of other programs they don't like. Aren't you glad that we've given them more chips at the table by expanding their control over healthcare?
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 11:17 AM   #81 (permalink)
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The government and the private sector already compete on numerous different fronts, with shipping and education being the most obvious examples. Frankly, the competition in both of those realms has resulted in more choice and better pricing for consumers.
In shipping and education, you are not penalized for going to a better school or using Fedex instead of the services the government provides. Also, there is no legislation that says that you can use your current shipping and education methods for now.

When you need to penalize those who buy from your competitiors or make way for eventually mandating that your services be purchased in future decades, that is a sure sign that your plan is a disaster.

That isn't competition. In a real competition, you attract customers by being cheaper, better or some combination of the two.
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 12:05 PM   #82 (permalink)
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In shipping and education, you are not penalized for going to a better school or using Fedex instead of the services the government provides. Also, there is no legislation that says that you can use your current shipping and education methods for now.

When you need to penalize those who buy from your competitiors or make way for eventually mandating that your services be purchased in future decades, that is a sure sign that your plan is a disaster.

That isn't competition. In a real competition, you attract customers by being cheaper, better or some combination of the two.
There is no requirement that you buy coverage from the government, nor is the government even making a plan generally available. Simply put, what the hell are you talking about? Totally confirms my belief that most people that are opposed to this bill base their belief upon incorrect facts.

Point me to the provision that says that I have to ditch my existing private coverage and buy into a plan offered by the government, and then we'll talk.
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 12:19 PM   #83 (permalink)
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Private fire departments: Why should I pay if your house is on fire. I was responsible and didn't let a fire affect my house. If your house or business is on fire, then you pay the cost to put it out.
This was a brilliant quote. Terry Pratchett came up with a similar idea: private fire insurance will only lead to a couple of guys tipping up at your house, have a nose round, and saying things like "Lots of paper around here. All very flammable. Oh dear oh dear oh dear..." etc.

Just for the record, I'm English, and it really gets on my bloody nerves when uninformed idiots (generally, not specifically anyone in this thread) start spouting off about our healthcare system. Especially when some ignorant imbecile starts harping on about 'Death Lists' or whatever it was in the UK... Jesus...

Anyway, I'm in the UK, and our health system is nowhere near as bad as is made out. If you need critical care, you get it there and then. It can't be any other way, or people would be dropping like flies. The people who are made to wait are made to wait for a reason. That reason isn't because they can't afford it - it's because the highly trained and very experienced medical professional believes they aren't likely to drop dead in the next 10 minutes.

As it is, if you don't fancy waiting, (well, running the risk of maybe having to wait), you get private insurance (BUPA for example) and go to a private hospital. It's not expensive, and you do it if you need to. You can even get coverage if you have an existing condition - you just either have a higher excess on that condition, or you aren't covered for THAT particular condition. It's not complex.

I pay approx 10-11% of my salary into what we call 'National Insurance', and that pays for a lot of public services, such as the ambulance service and the NHS. It contributes to the police, and the fire brigade, and any number of other public services that I suspect you wouldn't want to go without.

Plus I never ever have to worry about them turning round and saying "Sorry - you've already been unwell once this year, so we're not paying this time."

Also, I have a couple of questions for those Americans among you all of a Red State/'Small Government'/Republican (is that the right terminology?) persuasion:

Firstly: Those of you that don't have health insurance now, either through your job or purchased personally - what would you do should you get a serious long-term illness or require surgery or something?

I ask only because I know how much that'll cost. I had kidney surgery a few years ago, on the NHS (admittedly after a wait of about 6 months, but it was non-life threatening, and optional), and the total cost of the surgery, and after-care etc. etc. came to about £50,000 (approx. $70k or so I believe). On our 'socialised' health care system, it cost me nothing because I'd already paid through my NI contributions.

Presumably, you'd be liable for the full cost without insurance - so where would you get the money from?

Secondly: To those people stating that employers will be unlikely to pay for health insurance for you - why do you think this is so? They either pay the health insurance for you, or if they don't you would presumably want your pay packet to increase due to the significant loss of benefits in your renumeration package.

You are paying for your health insurance one way or another anyway, either by your employer paying on your behalf on whatever scheme they're signed up for or not - but the money is still coming out of your pocket. If there are the tax benefits in place to entice employers into doing this, it'll be cheaper for them to do that than give you the cash equivalent surely?
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 01:11 PM   #84 (permalink)
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Also, this in no way shape or form violates the Constitution.
I challenge you to state the article, section, and clause of the Constutution which authorize this bill. When Congressional "leaders" were asked repeatedly for this information they just shrugged it off and never answered.
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 01:21 PM   #85 (permalink)
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Here's an idea. Let's go further and make some of you happy by creating a perfect libertarian society:

Private fire departments: Why should I pay if your house is on fire. I was responsible and didn't let a fire affect my house. If your house or business is on fire, then you pay the cost to put it out.
<<== Retired firefighter.

There are, in fact, a vast number or private not-for-profit corporation fire departments all over the US. In most cases they are paid-on-call or volunteer departments who contract for their services with different cities, towns, counties, or districts. They operate very effectively alongside their municipally owned neighbors.

Also, you can't compare something provided at the municipal or county level of government with things done at the federal level. The federal government is specifically limited in its scope and power by the US Constitution. State governments are similarly limited by the state constitutions. Townships, cities, and counties are generally governed by charters agreed upon by the residents, or levies voted upon in local elections.
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 01:30 PM   #86 (permalink)
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Anyway, I'm in the UK, and our health system is nowhere near as bad as is made out.
For the sake of all our good friends across the pond I'm very glad to hear this.

That said, how well your health care system works or doesn't work has nothing to do with whether or not our government here in the states operates within the framework of its construction. While the US and the UK may both have representative branches of government, the frameworks under which they operate are vastly different.
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 01:43 PM   #87 (permalink)
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I challenge you to state the article, section, and clause of the Constutution which authorize this bill.
How about Article I, Section 8, clauses 3 and 18?
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 02:09 PM   #88 (permalink)
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Never in the history of the United States has the Congress ever passed a law which required any citizen to enter into a contract with another citizen or a private business against their will ...... Never, that is, until now. How's that for change?
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 02:25 PM   #89 (permalink)
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Not to waiver from the subject, but how about the our second in comand opening his mouth again! Talk about an embarrassment to the country!
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 02:30 PM   #90 (permalink)
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Not to waiver from the subject, but how about the our second in comand opening his mouth again! Talk about an embarrassment to the country!
Bah, I could care less if the VP drops the occasional F-bomb. I thought it was funnier when he offered condolences to the Irish PM on the death of his mother, who is very much alive.
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 02:35 PM   #91 (permalink)
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Bah, I could care less if the VP drops the occasional F-bomb. I thought it was funnier when he offered condolences to the Irish PM on the death of his mother, who is very much alive.
That too, everytime he opens his mouth
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 03:09 PM   #92 (permalink)
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Did the healthcare forget that there are still about 20% of americans not working!!!? And what are they going to do show up at there door steps saying you owe us $700 for not having insurance! that guy/gal should tell them he has a nice casio watch will that do? I just don't understand why this at least couldn't wait until you could have worked on stabilizing jobs for people and get them working. Maybe even give them more time to look over the bill and make some changes and get more ideas from both sides!
How'd you manage to increase the ACTUAL unemployment rate by about 10%?
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 03:11 PM   #93 (permalink)
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How about Article I, Section 8, clauses 3 and 18?
Yeah, nice try on the general welfare clause. Not so much. They've tried to cram everything under the sun underneath that and interstate commerce, but it doesn't work that way. If you want to understand the meaning of:

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts, Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises and shall be uniform throughout the United States;"

You have to go to what it's author said about this clause. For your reference, James Madison addressed this subject in Federalist 41, noting:

"...
Some, who have not denied the necessity of the power of taxation, have grounded a very fierce attack against the Constitution, on the language in which it is defined. It has been urged and echoed, that the power "to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, to pay the debts, and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States," amounts to an unlimited commission to exercise every power which may be alleged to be necessary for the common defense or general welfare. No stronger proof could be given of the distress under which these writers labor for objections, than their stooping to such a misconstruction.

Had no other enumeration or definition of the powers of the Congress been found in the Constitution, than the general expressions just cited, the authors of the objection might have had some color for it; though it would have been difficult to find a reason for so awkward a form of describing an authority to legislate in all possible cases. A power to destroy the freedom of the press, the trial by jury, or even to regulate the course of descents, or the forms of conveyances, must be very singularly expressed by the terms 'to raise money for the general welfare.'

But what color can the objection have, when a specification of the objects alluded to by these general terms immediately follows, and is not even separated by a longer pause than a semicolon? If the different parts of the same instrument ought to be so expounded, as to give meaning to every part which will bear it, shall one part of the same sentence be excluded altogether from a share in the meaning; and shall the more doubtful and indefinite terms be retained in their full extent, and the clear and precise expressions be denied any signification whatsoever? For what purpose could the enumeration of particular powers be inserted, if these and all others were meant to be included in the preceding general power? Nothing is more natural nor common than first to use a general phrase, and then to explain and qualify it by a recital of particulars. But the idea of an enumeration of particulars which neither explain nor qualify the general meaning, and can have no other effect than to confound and mislead, is an absurdity, which, as we are reduced to the dilemma of charging either on the authors of the objection or on the authors of the Constitution, we must take the liberty of supposing, had not its origin with the latter."

It is quite clear that the framers did not intend for the General Welfare Clause to be used as a hammer with which the government could beat the citizenry over the head and do as it pleased.


"Nothing is more natural nor common than first to use a general phrase, and then to explain and qualify it by a recital of particulars."

What he is saying is simply that the opening of Article I, Section 8, is merely a generic description of the enumerated powers that follow.
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 03:18 PM   #94 (permalink)
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What I find funny about all of the junk that flows through Congress, is that every time there is a new Congress, a bill is submitted called the "Enumerated Powers Act". In every new Congress it is summarily rejected by both parties.

What does this bill say, you may ask? It is very simple. It requires that every bill submitted in either house of Congress must contain a statement in it detailing which enumerated power in the Constitution grants Congress the authority to enact the piece of legislation.

Why do they all reject this? Both parties know that much of the legislation proposed by both sides is not authorized by the Constitution. It has been this way for far too long. Words have meaning, unless you're a politician, then they mean whatever suits your need at the time.
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 03:34 PM   #95 (permalink)
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Ok as for schools and mail, different scenarios. Fedex and ups went into competition with usps, not vice versa. Same with schools. So your argument is seriously flawed. And I didn't say higher taxes will kill innovation, I said socialism will. Big difference.


And what's with the name calling?

A debate is a debate. and can get heated, but lets leave direct name calling out of this.
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 03:45 PM   #96 (permalink)
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Yeah, nice try on the general welfare clause. Not so much.
Not so much indeed, in light of the fact that the general welfare clause is actually a different clause. The clauses I referred to are the Commerce Clause and the Necessary and Proper Clause.

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You have to go to what it's author said about this clause. For your reference, James Madison addressed this subject in Federalist 41, noting:
...
Before you go locating another Federalist Paper that you believe supports your position as to these two clauses, it bears mention that I'm a lot less concerned -- and indeed, you should be a lot less concerned -- with what James Madison has said on the topic and more concerned with how the Supreme Court has interpreted these clauses over the years. Simply put, they have been interpreted extraordinarily broadly, and it's gotten even broader as borders have been blurred and virtually all commerce has come to have interstate impact. You may very well disagree with it, and a lot of people do, but if you think that the Supreme Court is going to strike this down on the basis that it exceeds the scope of Congress' power, you're kidding yourself.
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 03:45 PM   #97 (permalink)
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e, everything he's done has been an attempt at breaking the back of our great republic.

It's time to take it back.

You unAmerican, yellow, leftist, Tory, tyranophiles need to move on. You're no longer welcome here.

Edit: I might add that you just gave the Americans their rallying cry for 2012. Say goodbye to the one term savior.
It never seems to amaze me how people like to always point the finger at the other person for making our lives miserable. Republicans and Democrats are both the cause for where our country is!! Which to tell the truth is probably in the worst state that our country has ever been!!

Someone said it earlier that the middle class is getting screwed by this bill well where was this argument when the Bush administration passed the tax cuts for the wealthy because in essence the middle class got screwed then.

When the housing market crashed the middle class got screwed then because their weren't regulations put on the banks so they engage in faulty practices. Who was responsible for this??? I think most republicans would blame Clinton and in a lot of ways they would be right..

My point is this Democrats and Republicans are all responsible for the collapse of our "great republic" no one party more than the other. We as the people need to stop listening to talking points and realize what is right for us as a nation so we can be a great country with people no matter the gender, race, religion, sexual orientation, or political belief who come together as one and set the standard of how the world should be!!
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 03:48 PM   #98 (permalink)
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And what's with the name calling?

A debate is a debate. and can get heated, but lets leave direct name calling out of this.
Is that directed at me? I certainly don't recall calling you any names, but your post appears to be directed to my post, so I'm wondering...
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 03:53 PM   #99 (permalink)
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Is that directed at me? I certainly don't recall calling you any names, but your post appears to be directed to my post, so I'm wondering...
Nope. It was a general statement.
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 03:58 PM   #100 (permalink)
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Nope. It was a general statement.
Fair enough. On this point, I'll whole-heartedly agree with you.
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