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Old March 23rd, 2010, 04:19 PM   #101 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by IOWA View Post
The people need to revolt.... civil war even....
Do you really expect anyone to take you seriously after saying things like this? Any idea on how crazy this makes you look?

I'm sick of hearing people make threats like this. Put up or shut up. All these Tea Bagger/ White Power rallies and not a single attempt at over throwing anything. The far right wing has no balls.

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Old March 23rd, 2010, 06:44 PM   #102 (permalink)
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Just to throw my own two cents in on Govt Spending... The New Deal and other Government programs were a bust... the single most effective action FDR took in ending the depression was staying out of WW2 and profiteering from the Europeans via the Lend Lease Act... or in other words Capitalism, Big Business, and Industry were better models for Government than the other way around...

'nuff said...
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 07:00 PM   #103 (permalink)
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They're also rationing off health care and deciding when to pull the plug on some people the government deem "not worth it." How does it affect me? Well I don' have health care so... y'know... it doesn't matter how much they "ration" me until I have enough money to get health care on my own.
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 07:04 PM   #104 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by mrmojoz View Post
Do you really expect anyone to take you seriously after saying things like this? Any idea on how crazy this makes you look?

I'm sick of hearing people make threats like this. Put up or shut up. All these Tea Bagger/ White Power rallies and not a single attempt at over throwing anything. The far right wing has no balls.
Well who are you? You going to lead this revolt? Then shut up.


Any idea on how crazy this makes you look?

good question, it was also asked a lot, a long time ago too, just before the Revolutionary war broke out. thank God for those crazies huh?
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 07:04 PM   #105 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Caliboy View Post
Just to throw my own two cents in on Govt Spending... The New Deal and other Government programs were a bust... the single most effective action FDR took in ending the depression was staying out of WW2 and profiteering from the Europeans via the Lend Lease Act... or in other words Capitalism, Big Business, and Industry were better models for Government than the other way around...

'nuff said...
So all of the public work programs that came along with the New Deal did nothing?
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 07:13 PM   #106 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by mrmojoz View Post
Do you really expect anyone to take you seriously after saying things like this? Any idea on how crazy this makes you look?

I'm sick of hearing people make threats like this. Put up or shut up. All these Tea Bagger/ White Power rallies and not a single attempt at over throwing anything. The far right wing has no balls.
You liberals need to put up or shut up...Have you been paying for someones healthcare bills besides your own, out of your pocket? maybe someone down the street who needs chemo, or a transplant? Life saving meds? No?? Why not? You want us too, so why have you not been doing this? This is your idea, you pay out of your pocket. Big mouth libs want everyone else to pay but do they? no. You people whine all the time that conservatives don't care enough don't do enough, we need to help the poor people who need healthcare...well, have you been practicing what you preach? I haven't found one liberal yet who has done this.

ok so now everyone is forced to buy health insurance, great. Most people who can afford it, already have it, or have it through their employer. If they do not have either of those situations then they cannot afford to buy a policy or just did not want a policy. what does this do to actually help anyone but the so called big bad evil Insurance companies? this does not lower healthcare costs for anyone nor does it mean anyone will have any better, faster or cheaper healthcare.
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 08:42 PM   #107 (permalink)
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There is no requirement that you buy coverage from the government, nor is the government even making a plan generally available. Simply put, what the hell are you talking about? Totally confirms my belief that most people that are opposed to this bill base their belief upon incorrect facts.

Point me to the provision that says that I have to ditch my existing private coverage and buy into a plan offered by the government, and then we'll talk.
Geez you challenge everyone to read the bill yet you can't seem to comprehend what the initial paragraphs of the bill that outline "allowing" people to maintain their current insurance for the next decade or so implies. I don't care if you want to talk about it or not. Reading the thing did you no good.

Read the part about the Excise tax where plans that cost more than a certain ammount will be taxed a ludicrous sum of money. Who the hell is anyone to say that I don't need a plan that costs more than $xxxx? What the hell do they know about my current healthcare needs? Not a damned thing. That excise tax is punishing anyone who might buy into a plan that may be better. There is no provision that says you can't have your own insurance but there is no protection for you if you don't do it their way.

You don't want to talk about it because, well hell you can buy your own plan but we're going to punish you for it? Look up the excise tax and how they were scrambling to re-write it so that their constituents (government workers or union members would be exempt.)

Don't paint everyone who isn't willing to hop into the failboat as an obstructionist. This bill is so complex and it contradicts itself as much as the bible (no surprise since it was just about as well written.)

I don't mind if you don't want to talk to me about the bill because while you might have read it, you obviously don't understand it.
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 09:32 PM   #108 (permalink)
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I don't understand the insane amount of outrage over the bill. The outlined provisions aren't extreme ideas at all. In fact, many fixes are very similar to what Mitt Romney set up in Massachusetts as governor.

So we have two different ideologies at odds with eachother, and this should come as no surprise. The right wing feels that government's role is to have no role -- to avoid interfering in industry especially. The left wing believes government should be used to regulate certain affairs.

Now, onto my opinion: To call this bill "the downfall of America" is pretty nuts. The bill ought to be called the consumer safety act part 2. All this anger from the Fox-Limbaugh crowd could be directed at a number of other issues. Where the hell were you guys in the 2000's?!
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 09:49 PM   #109 (permalink)
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I've noticed most people haven't read anything regarding this ridiculous bill...

1. You are young and don’t want health insurance? You are starting up a small business and need to minimize expenses, and one way to do that is to forego health insurance? Tough. You have to pay $750 annually for the “privilege.” (Section 1501)

2. You are young and healthy and want to pay for insurance that reflects that status? Tough. You’ll have to pay for premiums that cover not only you, but also the guy who smokes three packs a day, drink a gallon of whiskey and eats chicken fat off the floor. That’s because insurance companies will no longer be able to underwrite on the basis of a person’s health status. (Section 2701).

3. You would like to pay less in premiums by buying insurance with lifetime or annual limits on coverage? Tough. Health insurers will no longer be able to offer such policies, even if that is what customers prefer. (Section 2711).

4. Think you’d like a policy that is cheaper because it doesn’t cover preventive care or requires cost-sharing for such care? Tough. Health insurers will no longer be able to offer policies that do not cover preventive services or offer them with cost-sharing, even if that’s what the customer wants. (Section 2712).

5. You are an employer and you would like to offer coverage that doesn’t allow your employers’ slacker children to stay on the policy until age 26? Tough. (Section 2714).

6. You must buy a policy that covers ambulatory patient services, emergency services, hospitalization, maternity and newborn care, mental health and substance use disorder services, including behavioral health treatment; prescription drugs; rehabilitative and habilitative services and devices; laboratory services; preventive and wellness services; chronic disease management; and pediatric services, including oral and vision care.

You’re a single guy without children? Tough, your policy must cover pediatric services. You’re a woman who can’t have children? Tough, your policy must cover maternity services. You’re a teetotaler? Tough, your policy must cover substance abuse treatment. (Add your own violation of personal freedom here.) (Section 1302).

7. Do you want a plan with lots of cost-sharing and low premiums? Well, the best you can do is a “Bronze plan,” which has benefits that provide benefits that are actuarially equivalent to 60% of the full actuarial value of the benefits provided under the plan. Anything lower than that, tough. (Section 1302 (d) (1) (A))

8. You are an employer in the small-group insurance market and you’d like to offer policies with deductibles higher than $2,000 for individuals and $4,000 for families? Tough. (Section 1302 (c) (2) (A).

9. If you are a large employer (defined as at least 101 employees) and you do not want to provide health insurance to your employee, then you will pay a $750 fine per employee (It could be $2,000 to $3,000 under the reconciliation changes). Think you know how to better spend that money? Tough. (Section 1513).

10. You are an employer who offers health flexible spending arrangements and your employees want to deduct more than $2,500 from their salaries for it? Sorry, can’t do that. (Section 9005 (i)).

11. If you are a physician and you don’t want the government looking over your shoulder? Tough. The Secretary of Health and Human Services is authorized to use your claims data to issue you reports that measure the resources you use, provide information on the quality of care you provide, and compare the resources you use to those used by other physicians. Of course, this will all be just for informational purposes. It’s not like the government will ever use it to intervene in your practice and patients’ care. Of course not. (Section 3003 (i))

12. If you are a physician and you want to own your own hospital, you must be an owner and have a “Medicare provider agreement” by Feb. 1, 2010. (Dec. 31, 2010 in the reconciliation changes.) If you didn’t have those by then, you are out of luck. (Section 6001 (i) (1) (A))

13. If you are a physician owner and you want to expand your hospital? Well, you can’t (Section 6001 (i) (1) (B). Unless, it is located in a country where, over the last five years, population growth has been 150% of what it has been in the state (Section 6601 (i) (3) ( E)). And then you cannot increase your capacity by more than 200% (Section 6001 (i) (3) (C)).

14. You are a health insurer and you want to raise premiums to meet costs? Well, if that increase is deemed “unreasonable” by the Secretary of Health and Human Services it will be subject to review and can be denied. (Section 1003)

15. The government will extract a fee of $2.3 billion annually from the pharmaceutical industry. If you are a pharmaceutical company what you will pay depends on the ratio of the number of brand-name drugs you sell to the total number of brand-name drugs sold in the U.S. So, if you sell 10% of the brand-name drugs in the U.S., what you pay will be 10% multiplied by $2.3 billion, or $230,000,000. (Under reconciliation, it starts at $2.55 billion, jumps to $3 billion in 2012, then to $3.5 billion in 2017 and $4.2 billion in 2018, before settling at $2.8 billion in 2019 (Section 1404)). Think you, as a pharmaceutical executive, know how to better use that money, say for research and development? Tough. (Section 9008 (b)).

16. The government will extract a fee of $2 billion annually from medical device makers. If you are a medical device maker what you will pay depends on your share of medical device sales in the U.S. So, if you sell 10% of the medical devices in the U.S., what you pay will be 10% multiplied by $2 billion, or $200,000,000. Think you, as a medical device maker, know how to better use that money, say for R&D? Tough. (Section 9009 (b)).

The reconciliation package turns that into a 2.9% excise tax for medical device makers. Think you, as a medical device maker, know how to better use that money, say for research and development? Tough. (Section 1405).

17. The government will extract a fee of $6.7 billion annually from insurance companies. If you are an insurer, what you will pay depends on your share of net premiums plus 200% of your administrative costs. So, if your net premiums and administrative costs are equal to 10% of the total, you will pay 10% of $6.7 billion, or $670,000,000. In the reconciliation bill, the fee will start at $8 billion in 2014, $11.3 billion in 2015, $1.9 billion in 2017, and $14.3 billion in 2018 (Section 1406).Think you, as an insurance executive, know how to better spend that money? Tough.(Section 9010 (b) (1) (A and B).)

18. If an insurance company board or its stockholders think the CEO is worth more than $500,000 in deferred compensation? Tough.(Section 9014).

19. You will have to pay an additional 0.5% payroll tax on any dollar you make over $250,000 if you file a joint return and $200,000 if you file an individual return. What? You think you know how to spend the money you earned better than the government? Tough. (Section 9015).

That amount will rise to a 3.8% tax if reconciliation passes. It will also apply to investment income, estates, and trusts. You think you know how to spend the money you earned better than the government? Like you need to ask. (Section 1402).

20. If you go for cosmetic surgery, you will pay an additional 5% tax on the cost of the procedure. Think you know how to spend that money you earned better than the government? Tough. (Section 9017).
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 09:54 PM   #110 (permalink)
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I've noticed most people haven't read anything regarding this ridiculous bill...
Are you going to cite that list, or am I going to have to for you?
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 09:58 PM   #111 (permalink)
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Are you going to cite that list, or am I going to have to for you?
That's unimportant. I'm not taking credit for this. Plenty of people should have seen this by now. The point is that it's true.

But if everyone would like a link to this, word for word..
20 Ways ObamaCare Will Take Away Our Freedoms
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 10:26 PM   #112 (permalink)
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All this anger from the Fox-Limbaugh crowd could be directed at a number of other issues. Where the hell were you guys in the 2000's?!
Don't try to lump people who can read in with those idiots. Those idiots weren't trying to lure people into signing on to a laughable plan to spend a lot of money for very little benefit to all of the "poor people" they trick people who can't reason or do math into thinking they are helping in 2000.

Now if you want to know where I was then, I was working. I was watching most of these idiots who just signed that garbage give Bush carte blanche and then turn around 2 years later crying that it was a horrible thing and he made them vote for all of that unpopular stuff.
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 10:36 PM   #113 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by spiz View Post
I've noticed most people haven't read anything regarding this ridiculous bill...

1. You are young and don’t want health insurance? You are starting up a small business and need to minimize expenses, and one way to do that is to forego health insurance? Tough. You have to pay $750 annually for the “privilege.” (Section 1501)

2. You are young and healthy and want to pay for insurance that reflects that status? Tough. You’ll have to pay for premiums that cover not only you, but also the guy who smokes three packs a day, drink a gallon of whiskey and eats chicken fat off the floor. That’s because insurance companies will no longer be able to underwrite on the basis of a person’s health status. (Section 2701).

3. You would like to pay less in premiums by buying insurance with lifetime or annual limits on coverage? Tough. Health insurers will no longer be able to offer such policies, even if that is what customers prefer. (Section 2711).

4. Think you’d like a policy that is cheaper because it doesn’t cover preventive care or requires cost-sharing for such care? Tough. Health insurers will no longer be able to offer policies that do not cover preventive services or offer them with cost-sharing, even if that’s what the customer wants. (Section 2712).

5. You are an employer and you would like to offer coverage that doesn’t allow your employers’ slacker children to stay on the policy until age 26? Tough. (Section 2714).

6. You must buy a policy that covers ambulatory patient services, emergency services, hospitalization, maternity and newborn care, mental health and substance use disorder services, including behavioral health treatment; prescription drugs; rehabilitative and habilitative services and devices; laboratory services; preventive and wellness services; chronic disease management; and pediatric services, including oral and vision care.

You’re a single guy without children? Tough, your policy must cover pediatric services. You’re a woman who can’t have children? Tough, your policy must cover maternity services. You’re a teetotaler? Tough, your policy must cover substance abuse treatment. (Add your own violation of personal freedom here.) (Section 1302).

7. Do you want a plan with lots of cost-sharing and low premiums? Well, the best you can do is a “Bronze plan,” which has benefits that provide benefits that are actuarially equivalent to 60% of the full actuarial value of the benefits provided under the plan. Anything lower than that, tough. (Section 1302 (d) (1) (A))

8. You are an employer in the small-group insurance market and you’d like to offer policies with deductibles higher than $2,000 for individuals and $4,000 for families? Tough. (Section 1302 (c) (2) (A).

9. If you are a large employer (defined as at least 101 employees) and you do not want to provide health insurance to your employee, then you will pay a $750 fine per employee (It could be $2,000 to $3,000 under the reconciliation changes). Think you know how to better spend that money? Tough. (Section 1513).

10. You are an employer who offers health flexible spending arrangements and your employees want to deduct more than $2,500 from their salaries for it? Sorry, can’t do that. (Section 9005 (i)).

11. If you are a physician and you don’t want the government looking over your shoulder? Tough. The Secretary of Health and Human Services is authorized to use your claims data to issue you reports that measure the resources you use, provide information on the quality of care you provide, and compare the resources you use to those used by other physicians. Of course, this will all be just for informational purposes. It’s not like the government will ever use it to intervene in your practice and patients’ care. Of course not. (Section 3003 (i))

12. If you are a physician and you want to own your own hospital, you must be an owner and have a “Medicare provider agreement” by Feb. 1, 2010. (Dec. 31, 2010 in the reconciliation changes.) If you didn’t have those by then, you are out of luck. (Section 6001 (i) (1) (A))

13. If you are a physician owner and you want to expand your hospital? Well, you can’t (Section 6001 (i) (1) (B). Unless, it is located in a country where, over the last five years, population growth has been 150% of what it has been in the state (Section 6601 (i) (3) ( E)). And then you cannot increase your capacity by more than 200% (Section 6001 (i) (3) (C)).

14. You are a health insurer and you want to raise premiums to meet costs? Well, if that increase is deemed “unreasonable” by the Secretary of Health and Human Services it will be subject to review and can be denied. (Section 1003)

15. The government will extract a fee of $2.3 billion annually from the pharmaceutical industry. If you are a pharmaceutical company what you will pay depends on the ratio of the number of brand-name drugs you sell to the total number of brand-name drugs sold in the U.S. So, if you sell 10% of the brand-name drugs in the U.S., what you pay will be 10% multiplied by $2.3 billion, or $230,000,000. (Under reconciliation, it starts at $2.55 billion, jumps to $3 billion in 2012, then to $3.5 billion in 2017 and $4.2 billion in 2018, before settling at $2.8 billion in 2019 (Section 1404)). Think you, as a pharmaceutical executive, know how to better use that money, say for research and development? Tough. (Section 9008 (b)).

16. The government will extract a fee of $2 billion annually from medical device makers. If you are a medical device maker what you will pay depends on your share of medical device sales in the U.S. So, if you sell 10% of the medical devices in the U.S., what you pay will be 10% multiplied by $2 billion, or $200,000,000. Think you, as a medical device maker, know how to better use that money, say for R&D? Tough. (Section 9009 (b)).

The reconciliation package turns that into a 2.9% excise tax for medical device makers. Think you, as a medical device maker, know how to better use that money, say for research and development? Tough. (Section 1405).

17. The government will extract a fee of $6.7 billion annually from insurance companies. If you are an insurer, what you will pay depends on your share of net premiums plus 200% of your administrative costs. So, if your net premiums and administrative costs are equal to 10% of the total, you will pay 10% of $6.7 billion, or $670,000,000. In the reconciliation bill, the fee will start at $8 billion in 2014, $11.3 billion in 2015, $1.9 billion in 2017, and $14.3 billion in 2018 (Section 1406).Think you, as an insurance executive, know how to better spend that money? Tough.(Section 9010 (b) (1) (A and B).)

18. If an insurance company board or its stockholders think the CEO is worth more than $500,000 in deferred compensation? Tough.(Section 9014).

19. You will have to pay an additional 0.5% payroll tax on any dollar you make over $250,000 if you file a joint return and $200,000 if you file an individual return. What? You think you know how to spend the money you earned better than the government? Tough. (Section 9015).

That amount will rise to a 3.8% tax if reconciliation passes. It will also apply to investment income, estates, and trusts. You think you know how to spend the money you earned better than the government? Like you need to ask. (Section 1402).

20. If you go for cosmetic surgery, you will pay an additional 5% tax on the cost of the procedure. Think you know how to spend that money you earned better than the government? Tough. (Section 9017).
impressive list but these things won't matter to libs, freedom of choice is not in their vocab

except when it comes to Android operating system, then Apple gets called communist and dictatorial, controlling, restricting choice etc etc.
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Old March 23rd, 2010, 11:08 PM   #114 (permalink)
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Well all the arguing isn't going to change anything at this point, what people need to do is stop listening to the talking points from fox news, glenn beck and limbaugh, because all they look to do is fire people up with a lot of incorrect b.s. They do this because they know most of there audience doesn't know how to read or write because they know whatever they say on there tv or radio shows 95% of the listeners/viewers won't look up anything they say. Take for example the "death panel debate" people don't realize that there are currently "death panels" they are called insurance underwriters who deny a procedure they deem "not necessary" even though your doc says its needed.

Why not cut the defense budget by lets say 100 billion and pay for this bill? We don't need to spend roughly 700 billion this year on defense do we? End Iraq and Afghanistan and and we have the budget to pay for this, although I don't hear anyone complaining about spending all this money on two war's but healthcare that is simply out of the question. Don't forget this war in Iraq, the Bush tax cuts for the rich has cost this country quite a bit of money over the last eight years or so. Remember when Clinton left office we had a surplus and not a deficit and bushy jr. in eight year put us so far in debt it is scary don't forget that.

Also the ones complaining about reform because they already have healthcare from what ever avenue you choose to acquire it will be the first one who would be canceled when you get cancer or what ever illness the company says is to costly to them and you will be the ones complaining about reform.

Also we currently are paying for the 32 to 46 million people who are currently uninsured who get sick and go to the emergency room because they have no where else to go, do you think the money that is charged to them goes unpaid because they simply don't have insurance, no its written into the high premiums we have to pay each month. So the fact that people argue they don't want to pay for other people's health insurance let me tell you you already do...sorry. All this arguing is irrelevant and I am tired of the right saying they are for reform as they clearly are not, as they had eight years under the Bush admin when they had a majority in the house and senate to get something done for this country and they simply didn't.

Oh yeah and the best thing to come from the passing of this bill is the fact that Rush Limbaugh said he is now leaving our country and moving to Costa Rica, that is the best thing I have heard in a long time, don't let the door hit you in your ass on the way out.
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Old March 24th, 2010, 05:01 AM   #115 (permalink)
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For the sake of all our good friends across the pond I'm very glad to hear this.
Cheers! Good to know you guys care! Sorry if it looks harsh, but I think a lot of crap is talked about our healthcare system by you chaps in the States, without most of you really knowing how it works, and it gets on my nerves!

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That said, how well your health care system works or doesn't work has nothing to do with whether or not our government here in the states operates within the framework of its construction. While the US and the UK may both have representative branches of government, the frameworks under which they operate are vastly different.
True, but not the point I was trying to make.

I'm an outsider - obviously - with an interest in how things work around the world so that if something better is found somewhere else, it could be put forward as a suggestion for a model that could be used instead. I'm just trying to understand the arguments on both sides. Whether it's legal for the government to require it of you is none of my concern, although I struggle to see the difference between this and car insurance.

I'm posting in this forum because you guys seem to be mostly intelligent, coherent, and able to put together cohesive arguments both ways. The general rabble you get talking about this on the news networks available to us over here generally seem to be the kinds of people that have no frakkin' clue what they're talking about, and just repeat the same drivel the talking heads spout.

Obviously, we have what a lot of you guys would no doubt call 'socialist' health care paid for out of a government 'health insurance' fund that we are required to pay into. This seems to be, broad strokes, similar to the ObamaCare system which basically requires you to have health insurance of one form or another, be it via the government in the form of MediCare/MedicAid, or via a private policy.

Now, based on the fact that you are ALREADY paying for the healthcare of people without insurance (and tbh I think that if you don't believe that, you're hiding facts and common sense from yourself to satisfy your own argument - again look at car insurance), then surely this has got to be a good thing, as it requires everyone to be covered? Also, this policy surely means that there should be a significantly reduced need for fraud investigations, as everyone will have insurance so there'll be no need to try to claim on someone elses? (I admit, I have no clue how big an issue this ACTUALLY is, but it seems to crop up a fair bit on the TV so I assume it must happen sooner or later).

Also, I posted a couple of questions before that it'd be helpful if I could get an answer to, as it seems to me that they encompass the heart of the argument. Anyone got any thoughts? I'll post them again for ease:

Firstly: If someone doesn't have health insurance now, either through their job or purchased personally - what would they do should you get a serious long-term illness or require surgery or something? It's well and good saying "I'm young and healthy etc.", but that doesn't stop you randomly catching something unpleasant, developing cancer, or being hit by a car/truck/bus/plane engine falling from the sky into your bedroom...

I ask only because I know how much that'll cost - I had kidney surgery a few years ago and the total cost of the surgery, and after-care etc. etc. came to about £50,000 (approx. $70k or so I believe), and this was SIMPLE surgery. Someone mentioned a heart transplant or chemo being $300k or something. Presumably, they'd be liable for the full cost without insurance - so where would the money come from?

Secondly: To those people stating that employers will be unlikely to pay for health insurance for you - why do you think this is so? They either pay the health insurance for you, or if they don't you would presumably want your pay packet to increase due to the significant loss of benefits in your renumeration package.

You are paying for your health insurance one way or another anyway, either by your employer paying on your behalf on whatever scheme they're signed up for or by you having a private policy - but the money is still coming out of your pocket. If there are the tax benefits in place to entice employers into doing this, it'll be cheaper for them to do that than give you the cash equivalent surely?

Again, I'd really appreciate answers to these as I grope blindly for understanding. This entire argument seems kind of wacky to most people in the UK, because it's an alien system to us. I'm just trying to glean some actual knowledge from it.
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Old March 24th, 2010, 05:17 AM   #116 (permalink)
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Do you really expect anyone to take you seriously after saying things like this? Any idea on how crazy this makes you look?

I'm sick of hearing people make threats like this. Put up or shut up. All these Tea Bagger/ White Power rallies and not a single attempt at over throwing anything. The far right wing has no balls.
Ok how do you get white power out of than comment?

I guess these people were white power advocates as well:

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Old March 24th, 2010, 11:32 AM   #117 (permalink)
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Secondly: To those people stating that employers will be unlikely to pay for health insurance for you - why do you think this is so? They either pay the health insurance for you, or if they don't you would presumably want your pay packet to increase due to the significant loss of benefits in your renumeration package.

You are paying for your health insurance one way or another anyway, either by your employer paying on your behalf on whatever scheme they're signed up for or by you having a private policy - but the money is still coming out of your pocket. If there are the tax benefits in place to entice employers into doing this, it'll be cheaper for them to do that than give you the cash equivalent surely?

Again, I'd really appreciate answers to these as I grope blindly for understanding. This entire argument seems kind of wacky to most people in the UK, because it's an alien system to us. I'm just trying to glean some actual knowledge from it.
There was a third option. No insurance at all. When I was in college I was working 3 jobs just to pay bills. None of these jobs provided insurance. two of my employers were small family run businesses that couldn't afford to pay me more then I was getting. I was young and I didn't need insurance. Now If I was forced to pay insurance I wouldn't have been able to go to school. And if my employers where forced to pay I wouldn't have had a job. Also, as it is no one in the US will be turned away for medical treatment. This included illegal who pay NOTHING and a BIG part of why medical services are going up. Just because they do not pay the doctors doesn't mean the doctor isn't getting his money.

In reality there is little to no increase in coverage for the "uninsured" then before the bill.

But let me ask you, if you work a full time job in GB and are a contributing member to society what percentage of your paycheck is vaporized before you get your money? I'm just curious.
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Old March 24th, 2010, 12:32 PM   #118 (permalink)
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There was a third option. No insurance at all.
....
I was young and I didn't need insurance.
...
Also, as it is no one in the US will be turned away for medical treatment. This included illegal who pay NOTHING and a BIG part of why medical services are going up.
This is the bit that confuses me - you're effectively taking a gigantic risk in being uninsured. Sure, you're fit and healthy so heart disease and liver disease is out. Doesn't stop you getting mowed down by a bus. Or falling over and breaking your leg. Or any of a myriad of other things that can happen to all of us.

So if any of that happens, what then? The hospital HAS to treat you right? So then, you owe them for the cost of treatment, which can easily run into thousands. If you're insured, no problem - if you're not, do you pay them from your own pocket, or do you just make like the 'illegals' and do a runner?

If the second, surely you're contributing to the problem. And if you pay them from your own pocket, then isn't it a lot harder to find a massive lump of cash in one go than it is to pay a small amount month-on-month?

And with this new ObamaCare plan, would you not now be covered, in a similar situation, either on your parents plan or under MedicAid/MediCare because you were a low earner?

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But let me ask you, if you work a full time job in GB and are a contributing member to society what percentage of your paycheck is vaporized before you get your money? I'm just curious.
You answered one of my questions - seems only fair to answer yours!

Tax is worked out very oddly here - you've got a tax-free allowance of about £5k p.a./ £420 p.m. which is deducted. You then get charged at 11% National Insurance on whatever is left, which is then subtracted. You then get charged at variable rates on the remaining proportion that falls into other bands.

It works out at about 20-25% all-in, for most people who aren't earning stupid money. Mine is a bit higher than that for Student Loans etc.

But with our way being based on a %age of your taxable salary, it's a constant amount each month that is relatively small - if you're earning that little you don't go over the tax-free allowance, you pay nothing.

Someone earning a salary of £10k a year (say) as a student would end up paying about £1,650 a year in tax, so about 16% - and, critically, this would INCLUDE THE EQUIVALENT OF HEALTH INSURANCE.

I hope that's clear. Lemme know if not and I'll try again!

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In reality there is little to no increase in coverage for the "uninsured" then before the bill.
There might not be an increase in coverage - as you say, people still get treated come what may. However, with the Bill, doesn't this mean the hospitals get paid the full amount more often through people with no insurance now either having to have some, or being covered under the MediCare/MedicAid plans?

And, in turn, won't that mean that costs could come down some as hospitals won't have to bump up prices for those who DO have insurance, to recoup their losses from them not getting paid by those who do not?
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Old March 24th, 2010, 01:27 PM   #119 (permalink)
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No, because the obama plan is going to try and make doctors accept well below substandard rates. So they will keep costs high, or even higher to turn a profit.
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Old March 24th, 2010, 01:38 PM   #120 (permalink)
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You liberals need to put up or shut up...Have you been paying for someones healthcare bills besides your own, out of your pocket? maybe someone down the street who needs chemo, or a transplant? Life saving meds? No?? Why not? You want us too, so why have you not been doing this? This is your idea, you pay out of your pocket. Big mouth libs want everyone else to pay but do they? no. You people whine all the time that conservatives don't care enough don't do enough, we need to help the poor people who need healthcare...well, have you been practicing what you preach? I haven't found one liberal yet who has done this.
Actually everyone with health insurance is already paying with our premiums...a large part of which cover the ever rising costs of treating and caring for uninsured people.

Quote:
ok so now everyone is forced to buy health insurance, great. Most people who can afford it, already have it, or have it through their employer. If they do not have either of those situations then they cannot afford to buy a policy or just did not want a policy. what does this do to actually help anyone but the so called big bad evil Insurance companies? this does not lower healthcare costs for anyone nor does it mean anyone will have any better, faster or cheaper healthcare.
This helps people who want health insurance but cannot get it or cannont afford it. Have you read any of the bill at all?
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Old March 24th, 2010, 01:46 PM   #121 (permalink)
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That's unimportant. I'm not taking credit for this. Plenty of people should have seen this by now. The point is that it's true.

But if everyone would like a link to this, word for word..
20 Ways ObamaCare Will Take Away Our Freedoms
Really its true? Even the parts that aren't true or even still in the bill?
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Old March 24th, 2010, 03:09 PM   #122 (permalink)
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That's unimportant. I'm not taking credit for this. Plenty of people should have seen this by now. The point is that it's true.

But if everyone would like a link to this, word for word..
20 Ways ObamaCare Will Take Away Our Freedoms
1. You are young and WANT health insurance Great! You only have to pay $750 anually.

5. Your daughter graduated college and is now in the midst of finding a job. She gets hits by a drunk driver and is on life support. She's 25 years old and is still on your insurance plan. Great! (The fact that shes still insured)

I lost interest in rewording the other 18 but I think my point is proven for the most part. There are many pros and cons to this bill.
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Old March 24th, 2010, 04:45 PM   #123 (permalink)
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I have 2 questions. 1) How are we going to be able to find the doctors to suddenly support the additional 32 million Americans when we already have to wait sometimes for a hour or longer to see the doctor now? and 2) When did it become my responsibility as a hard working, tax paying, law abiding citizen to pay for everyone else that doesnt have healthcare?? A large portion of my check already is taxed to pay for the MANY government entitlement programs. When do I get my "free" stuff from the government? Why should I even continue to get up early every day and work hard to support the family that I am responsible for when I am losing complete control of how much is taken from my check. THIS IS COMPELETELY ABSURD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old March 24th, 2010, 04:56 PM   #124 (permalink)
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Long post, worth the read.

Fox News, health care, and the right-wing nervous breakdown | Media Matters for America
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Old March 24th, 2010, 05:41 PM   #125 (permalink)
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How are we going to be able to find the doctors to suddenly support the additional 32 million Americans.
Oh yes, an honest question. I guess YOU don't want universal healthcare because it might mean YOU have to wait longer. Can't have that so screw everybody else. Right?

This is what's know as pulling the ladder up behind you.
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Old March 24th, 2010, 05:56 PM   #126 (permalink)
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I have 2 questions. 1) How are we going to be able to find the doctors to suddenly support the additional 32 million Americans when we already have to wait sometimes for a hour or longer to see the doctor now? and 2) When did it become my responsibility as a hard working, tax paying, law abiding citizen to pay for everyone else that doesnt have healthcare?? A large portion of my check already is taxed to pay for the MANY government entitlement programs. When do I get my "free" stuff from the government? Why should I even continue to get up early every day and work hard to support the family that I am responsible for when I am losing complete control of how much is taken from my check. THIS IS COMPELETELY ABSURD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I've got some news for you, those people are already being treated, and you're already paying for it. Medical costs are what they are in some respect because the uninsured show up at emergency rooms where they can't be turned away. Those bills go unpaid, and all of our costs go up as a result.

Soooooooooo, the question is -- would you rather continue to do it this way, or put something in place where doctors are actually being reimbursed for the care they provide and costs can be better predicted and, accordingly, controlled?
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Old March 24th, 2010, 05:59 PM   #127 (permalink)
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I'll bet you $750 dollars you won't do this.

Also, this in no way shape or form violates the Constitution.

If you want to talk Constitutional violations, we can always discuss things like Bush's Military Commissions Act of 2006. That's the kind of stuff you should be scared about.

Comparing the US govt forcing us to buy health insurance to habeas corpus rights of enemy combatants?
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Old March 24th, 2010, 07:16 PM   #128 (permalink)
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I've got some news for you, those people are already being treated, and you're already paying for it. Medical costs are what they are in some respect because the uninsured show up at emergency rooms where they can't be turned away. Those bills go unpaid, and all of our costs go up as a result.

Soooooooooo, the question is -- would you rather continue to do it this way, or put something in place where doctors are actually being reimbursed for the care they provide and costs can be better predicted and, accordingly, controlled?
if this is such a great idea why are you not paying out of your pocket medical bills foe someone who cannot afford it? maybe someone in your neighborhood needs a transplant operation, chemo, physical therapy? how about you going down there and let them know you will be picking up the cost for them, ask them how much it will be, open up your checkbook and write the check. If all you people who thought this was such a great idea, then healthcare cots would be lower for us. But, you are not, and you won't. So, why don't you put your money where your mouth is? Hmmmm?

And no your argument of "would you rather continue to do it this way, or put something in place where doctors are actually being reimbursed for the care they provide and costs can be better predicted and, accordingly, controlled?" will not fly either. First of all, i and i alone am responsible for my family. Not you, not my neighbor, not the government. Who are you and who is the gov to be telling me that i should be responsible for anyone else?

Until you open up your checkbook and pay medical expenses for someone else out of your pocket first, don't lecture me or anyone else how do we want to do it.

Another point, when will this stop? how much and to whom are we supposedly responsible for here? Retirement, medicaide, medicare, auto industry, financial industry, now the health care industry, where and when will it stop? will it stop? ever?

Next they will be harping on the environment crap, cause its waiting in the wings to be addressed by the liberals next., which will mean only one thing, more money out of my pocket.
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Old March 24th, 2010, 07:43 PM   #129 (permalink)
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One of the things that drives me nuts is our Senators and Congressman (regardless of their political affiliation) they have no chip in the game when it comes down to it. The median net worth of senators was estimated at $1.7 million and House of Representatives members at $675,000, said the Center for Responsive Politics, a Washington watchdog group that monitors the influence of money on government (Reuters 2006) considering the median for the United States is a little over $50k. This puts them in the upper half of 1% of this nation. I wonder when the last time they lived pay check to pay check, worried about paying their bills, or even paying for their kids college tuitions, and etc. They can pass all the legislation they want because really in the end it doesn't even affect them (except maybe their pay raises). They have the best healthcare package on the planet yet they have already voted to exempt themselves from any healthcare reform changes (makes you wonder). Capitol Hill needs to wake up and get back to reality. Most Americans have an unfavorable opinion on how our government is doing (I believe a recent poll had it below 20%). Why can't they see that? Are they that out of touch? Are they so concerned about being reelected that they will cater to any group promising them votes? I just don't get it!! They need to be reminded that they work for us and not the other way around. November elections will be interesting and even though I'm sick of both parties, I think the Democrats are in big trouble. Republicans better pay attention and not rest on their laurels. Maybe it's time for a new party to rise?
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Old March 24th, 2010, 08:45 PM   #130 (permalink)
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if this is such a great idea why are you not paying out of your pocket medical bills foe someone who cannot afford it? maybe someone in your neighborhood needs a transplant operation, chemo, physical therapy? how about you going down there and let them know you will be picking up the cost for them, ask them how much it will be, open up your checkbook and write the check. If all you people who thought this was such a great idea, then healthcare cots would be lower for us. But, you are not, and you won't. So, why don't you put your money where your mouth is? Hmmmm?
Everyone that has health insurance is and has been paying for all these people without insurance for a long time. It is why premiums are so high and part of the reason the current system is so f'ed up. If you are so against your money going to other peoples health care then you would think you would be all for this bill since it actually makes people pay (or at least partially pay) their own way.
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Old March 24th, 2010, 10:03 PM   #131 (permalink)
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(EDIT: Burton71 beat me to it, but there's some useful information in this...)

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if this is such a great idea why are you not paying out of your pocket medical bills foe someone who cannot afford it?
I already am paying the medical bills for those people. So are you.

The uninsured don't get any kind of basic care unless they pay for it out-of-pocket. Most don't and wind up in the ER when their problems get out of hand. Somebody with a simple infection that could have been treated early with an $80 visit to a GP and $20 worth of antibiotics ends up requiring emergency care that costs tens of thousands of dollars. (I have a friend who works ER at a large hospital in the southeast, and she says close to half of the cases they see fall into that category.) Clearly, if that person couldn't afford health insurance, there's no way they can afford to pay that bill, either.

If you have no insurance and you get into this kind of a jam, your bacon gets saved by the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act , which is a law enacted as part of the infamous Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1985. That's great if you're the patient but not so much f you're the hospital, because EMTALA forces hospitals to care for those patients and eat the cost. They don't exactly eat it, either. The only way the hospital is going to recoup those costs and not go bankrupt is to increase what they charge everyone else who shows up with an insurance card or cash on the barrelhead. The insurers aren't going to eat those costs either, and they raise premiums. Guess who pays those? I do, or my employer does.

As premiums increase, more people drop out of the risk pool because they can no longer afford it, making them part of a growing segment of the population that's eventually going to need "free" ER care. That, of course, drives costs and premiums up even more. It's magnified even more by the fact that people who know they need the insurance don't bail out, leaving the pool full of insureds who are a worse-than-average risk. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Please note that the foregoing is neither an endorsement or rejection of the new health care law.

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Old March 24th, 2010, 10:06 PM   #132 (permalink)
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if this is such a great idea why are you not paying out of your pocket medical bills foe someone who cannot afford it? maybe someone in your neighborhood needs a transplant operation, chemo, physical therapy? how about you going down there and let them know you will be picking up the cost for them, ask them how much it will be, open up your checkbook and write the check. If all you people who thought this was such a great idea, then healthcare cots would be lower for us. But, you are not, and you won't. So, why don't you put your money where your mouth is? Hmmmm?

And no your argument of "would you rather continue to do it this way, or put something in place where doctors are actually being reimbursed for the care they provide and costs can be better predicted and, accordingly, controlled?" will not fly either. First of all, i and i alone am responsible for my family. Not you, not my neighbor, not the government. Who are you and who is the gov to be telling me that i should be responsible for anyone else?

Until you open up your checkbook and pay medical expenses for someone else out of your pocket first, don't lecture me or anyone else how do we want to do it.

Another point, when will this stop? how much and to whom are we supposedly responsible for here? Retirement, medicaide, medicare, auto industry, financial industry, now the health care industry, where and when will it stop? will it stop? ever?

Next they will be harping on the environment crap, cause its waiting in the wings to be addressed by the liberals next., which will mean only one thing, more money out of my pocket.
Listen, you can feel free to live in your little ideological haven, but I live in the real world, and in the real world, there is a cost that society bears when people don't have access to health care. One component of that cost is that the rest of us pay more for health care to account for those that get treatment and don't pay. It sucks, but it's reality. In addition to the other good reasons for people to have access to some basic level of health care, we all ought to want it to give the health care providers some assurance that they're going to get paid so that they don't need to build a cushion into their pricing.

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Everyone that has health insurance is and has been paying for all these people without insurance for a long time. It is why premiums are so high and part of the reason the current system is so f'ed up. If you are so against your money going to other peoples health care then you would think you would be all for this bill since it actually makes people pay (or at least partially pay) their own way.
Bingo.
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Old March 25th, 2010, 09:39 AM   #133 (permalink)
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OK, so I live near my Congressman -- who voted in favor of the HCR bill -- and someone left a COFFIN on his LAWN. If you want to picket the guy's office or do other similar things, hey, that's certainly your right, but IMO this transcends free expression and starts to look more like a threat, let alone the fact that it disrupts the lives of the people that have done nothing more than having the misfortune of living near the guy.

W.T.F.

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OK, so having looked into this a bit more, the people behind this are defending it on the basis that it was a peaceful protest and not intended to be a threat. Small comfort, IMO, because, you know, they left a COFFIN on his LAWN.

Let your voice be heard, by all means, but how about a little respect for a person's family and neighbors? Reminds me of a wedding I attended a few years ago where the event space was being picketed by anti-abortion protesters on the night of my wife's friend's reception because the facility was also hosting an event for someone related to the pro-choice movement (I'm assuming). For all I know, the bride could be the most strident anti-abortion advocate out there, but neither the service nor the reception suggested that she wanted that to be the theme for the evening. We all had to walk past blown up photos of aborted fetuses to attend the reception. Really uncomfortable. Time and place, you know?

As an aside, I'm well aware that there are whackjobs on the left that pull this sort of crap without regard to those that may not have a dog in the fight as well, so it's not my intention to suggest that this is just a wingnut thing.
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Old March 25th, 2010, 10:37 AM   #134 (permalink)
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No that doesn't sum anything up. The picture incorrectly associates Rebuplicans alone with unnecessary wars. You do realize that all of your fanboy Democrats voted for this never ending war right? And lets not forget that Obama has no intentions of bringing our troops home. He never has. He is running for 4 more years of Bush. Same shit, different day.

It's mind baffling that people actually believe Obama has good intentions and is actually different than his predecessor. Republicrats are one in the same, and the only way for this country to succeed, is for this government to fail.

Obama should be focused on fixing our economy, rather than coming up with a bill that is sure to bankrupt our country. And yes, this will bankrupt our country. You can't spend money you don't have. Simple economics.
Both wars havent even cost a trillion yet.. get your figures straight
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Old March 25th, 2010, 10:38 AM   #135 (permalink)
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1. You are young and don't want ? You are starting up a small business and need to minimize expenses, and one way to do that is to forego health insurance? Tough. You have to pay $750 annually for the "privilege." (Section 1501)

2. You are young and healthy and want to pay for insurance that reflects that status? Tough. You'll have to pay for premiums that cover not only you, but also the guy who smokes three packs a day, drink a gallon of whiskey and eats chicken fat off the floor. That's because insurance companies will no longer be able to underwrite on the basis of a person's health status.(Section 2701).

3. You would like to in premiums by buying insurance with lifetime or annual limits on coverage? Tough. Health insurers will no longer be able to offer such policies, even if that is what customers prefer.(Section 2711).

4. Think you'd like a policy that is cheaper because it doesn't cover preventive care or requires cost-sharing for such care? Tough. Health insurers will no longer be able to offer policies that do not cover preventive services or offer them with cost-sharing, even if that's what the customer wants.(Section 2712).

5. You are an employer and you would like to offer coverage that doesn't allow your employers' slacker children to stay on the policy until age 26? Tough.(Section 2714).

6. You must buy a policy that covers ambulatory patient services, emergency services, hospitalization, maternity and newborn care, mental health and substance use disorder services, including behavioral health treatment; prescription drugs; rehabilitative and habilitative services and devices; laboratory services; preventive and wellness services; chronic disease management; and pediatric services, including oral and vision care.

You're a single guy without children? Tough, your policy must cover pediatric services. You're a woman who can't have children? Tough, your policy must cover maternity services. You're a teetotaler? Tough, your policy must cover substance abuse treatment.(Add your own violation of personal freedom here.)(Section 1302).

7. Do you want a plan with lots of cost-sharing and low premiums? Well, the best you can do is a "Bronze plan," which has benefits that provide benefits that are actuarially equivalent to 60% of the full actuarial value of the benefits provided under the plan. Anything lower than that, tough.(Section 1302 (d)(1)(A))

8. You are an employer in the small-group market and you'd like to offer policies with deductibles higher than $2,000 for individuals and $4,000 for families? Tough.(Section 1302 (c)(2)(A).

9. If you are a large employer (defined as at least 101 employees) and you do not want to provide health insurance to your employee, then you will pay a $750 fine per employee (It could be $2,000 to $3,000 under the reconciliation changes). Think you know how to better spend that money? Tough.(Section 1513).

10. You are an employer who offers health flexible spending arrangements and your employees want to deduct more than $2,500 from their salaries for it? Sorry, can't do that.(Section 9005 (i)).

11. If you are a physician and you don't want the government looking over your shoulder? Tough. The Secretary of Health and Human Services is authorized to use your claims data to issue you reports that measure the resources you use, provide information on the quality of care you provide, and compare the resources you use to those used by other physicians. Of course, this will all be just for informational purposes. It's not like the government will ever use it to intervene in your practice and patients' care. Of course not.(Section 3003 (i))
12. If you are a physician and you want to own your own hospital, you must be an owner and have a "Medicare provider agreement" by Feb. 1, 2010.(Dec. 31, 2010 in the reconciliation changes.) If you didn't have those by then, you are out of luck.(Section 6001 (i)(1)(A))

13. If you are a physician owner and you want to expand your hospital? Well, you can't (Section 6001 (i)(1)(B). Unless, it is located in a country where, over the last five years, population growth has been 150% of what it has been in the state (Section 6601 (i)(3)( E)). And then you cannot increase your capacity by more than 200%(Section 6001 (i)(3)(C)).
14. You are a health insurer and you want to raise premiums to meet costs? Well, if that increase is deemed "unreasonable" by the Secretary of Health and Human Services it will be subject to review and can be denied.(Section 1003)
15. The government will extract a fee of $2.3 billion annually from the pharmaceutical industry. If you are a pharmaceutical company what you will pay depends on the ratio of the number of brand-name drugs you sell to the total number of brand-name drugs sold in the U.S. So, if you sell 10% of the brand-name drugs in the U.S., what you pay will be 10% multiplied by $2.3 billion, or $230,000,000.(Under reconciliation, it starts at $2.55 billion, jumps to $3 billion in 2012, then to $3.5 billion in 2017 and $4.2 billion in 2018, before settling at $2.8 billion in 2019 (Section 1404)). Think you, as a pharmaceutical executive, know how to better use that money, say for research and development? Tough.(Section 9008 (b)).
16. The government will extract a fee of $2 billion annually from medical device makers. If you are a medical device maker what you will pay depends on your share of medical device sales in the U.S. So, if you sell 10% of the medical devices in the U.S., what you pay will be 10% multiplied by $2 billion, or $200,000,000. Think you, as a medical device maker, know how to better use that money, say for R&D? Tough.(Section 9009 (b)).
The reconciliation package turns that into a 2.9% excise tax for medical device makers. Think you, as a medical device maker, know how to better use that money, say for research and development? Tough.(Section 1405).
17. The government will extract a fee of $6.7 billion annually from. If you are an insurer, what you will pay depends on your share of net premiums plus 200% of your administrative costs. So, if your net premiums and administrative costs are equal to 10% of the total, you will pay 10% of $6.7 billion, or $670,000,000. In the reconciliation bill, the fee will start at $8 billion in 2014,$11.3 billion in 2015,$1.9 billion in 2017, and $14.3 billion in 2018 (Section 1406).Think you, as an insurance executive, know how to better spend that money? Tough.(Section 9010 (b)(1)(A and B).)
18. If an insurance company board or its stockholders think the CEO is worth more than $500,000 in ? Tough.(Section 9014).
19. You will have to pay an additional 0.5% payroll tax on any dollar you make over $250,000 if you file a joint return and $200,000 if you file an individual return. What? You think you know how to spend the money you earned better than the government? Tough.(Section 9015).
That amount will rise to a 3.8% tax if reconciliation passes. It will also apply to investment income, estates, and trusts. You think you know how to spend the money you earned better than the government? Like you need to ask.(Section 1402).
20. If you go for cosmetic surgery, you will pay an additional 5% tax on the cost of the procedure. Think you know how to spend that money you earned better than the government? Tough.(Section 9017).
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Old March 25th, 2010, 10:39 AM   #136 (permalink)
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O and that preexisting condition part.. excludes children
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Old March 25th, 2010, 10:43 AM   #137 (permalink)
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OK, so I live near my Congressman -- who voted in favor of the HCR bill -- and someone left a COFFIN on his LAWN. If you want to picket the guy's office or do other similar things, hey, that's certainly your right, but IMO this transcends free expression and starts to look more like a threat, let alone the fact that it disrupts the lives of the people that have done nothing more than having the misfortune of living near the guy.

W.T.F.
Although death threats are extreme, he went against the majority of people and voted for an unconstitutional bill furthering federal government control. I hope that no violence occurs from this because they will turn traditional Americans into radicals. I hope they all get vote out..
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Old March 25th, 2010, 10:44 AM   #138 (permalink)
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1. You are young and don't want ? You are starting up a small business and need to minimize expenses, and one way to do that is to forego health insurance? Tough. You have to pay $750 annually for the "privilege." (Section 1501)
Good lord, people, how many times do you intend to post this? This is twice on this very page.
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Old March 25th, 2010, 10:49 AM   #139 (permalink)
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Please take a min and listen to this if you are upset at our government about this bill
http://mfile.akamai.com/6713/wma/glennbeck.download.akamai.com/6713/preview/10/03/032410free.asx
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Old March 25th, 2010, 10:52 AM   #140 (permalink)
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OK, this statement:

Quote:
Originally Posted by edge View Post
I hope that no violence occurs from this because they will turn traditional Americans into radicals.
is totally inconsistent with this statement:

Quote:
Originally Posted by edge View Post
Although death threats are extreme, he went against the majority of people and voted for an unconstitutional bill furthering federal government control.
Offering a justification for threats of violence on account of political disagreement makes it tough for you to wash your hands of this when someone follows through on those threats.
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Old March 25th, 2010, 10:57 AM   #141 (permalink)
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I'm not justifying their actions. Let me be clearer. I was just trying to state how upset people are and that is the wrong way to go about it. The correct way is to rally people together and speak with your votes come next election.
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Old March 25th, 2010, 10:59 AM   #142 (permalink)
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That is the great thing about our country. We have the ability to change things, without firing a shot. Jefferson thought for sure that we would have numerous revolutions. When really the only war we have had since was the civil war.. We as a country have spoken with our votes since. Hopefully it stays that way. I would hate to see martial law.
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Old March 25th, 2010, 11:25 AM   #143 (permalink)
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O and that preexisting condition part.. excludes children
No it doesn't. Children are the first ones that will benefit from not being able to excluded because of preexisting conditions. Get your facts straight.
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Old March 25th, 2010, 11:27 AM   #144 (permalink)
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Please take a min and listen to this if you are upset at our government about this bill
http://mfile.akamai.com/6713/wma/glennbeck.download.akamai.com/6713/preview/10/03/032410free.asx
I found your problem. You listen to and actually believe stuff that comes out of Glenn Beck's mouth.
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Old March 25th, 2010, 08:56 PM   #145 (permalink)
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Although death threats are extreme, he went against the majority of people and voted for an unconstitutional bill furthering federal government control. I hope that no violence occurs from this because they will turn traditional Americans into radicals. I hope they all get vote out..

The majority of people in what country? I know some people aren't going to like this comment but if anyone gets violent and it seems that it already started its because of the ignorance of those individual people being easily persuaded by rhetoric used by John Boehner, Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck, and Rush Limbaugh.

If all it takes is a bill to get passed for people to become violent then whats that say about those people?

You want a reason to get violent? how about being called a racial slur and having someone spit in your face because they don't like the color of your skin, sexual orientation or religion.

Some Americans just don't get it. As long as other peoples rights are violated its ok with you as long as they aren't your rights being violated. I wonder how many of you would have spoken up for black peoples rights during slavery, womens rights when they couldn't vote or gay and lesbians rights now so they can fight for their country and be able to be open without fear of getting kicked out or picked on for being gay.. America isn't a country about me, me, me its about us WE The People.

By far the most ridiculous argument that I have seen posted is that I don't want to pay for someone else's healthcare.. Believe it or not you already pay state taxes that fund healthcare for uninsured people and when you pay for your car insurance guess what you are paying for uninsured motorist. I haven't heard anybody complain about paying for uninsured motorists insurance. Oh yeah an when you pay for your cell phone bill so you can enjoy your android service guess what you are paying for someones health insurance.. When you bought your phone you paid for someones health insurance.
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Old March 25th, 2010, 09:34 PM   #146 (permalink)
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Well well. So some of you thought people weren't going to revolt? Well 10 minutes ago, on fox news, democrat congressmen and sentors are under attack. Including being shot at, sent fake anthrax, and thousands of threat letters. Am I so crazy now? Buy your guns and food now. Its gonna get ugly.
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Old March 25th, 2010, 09:37 PM   #147 (permalink)
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Unless I missed something I haven't seen anyone violence yet? And that's amazing with the amount of wack jobs in this country. On the other hand when the people voted against prop8 in cali there was church vandalism and I didn't hear nearly this amount of noise then.

So lets stop accusing the right of doing anything until it's done. Secondly freedom of speech is a two sided sword. The left is experiencing this for the time being.

Lastly, stop saying this is the same thing the republicans wanted/did as a.) two wrongs don't make a right and b.) there are plenty of people upset at the republicans which is where the tea party movement and the libertarians come in. Just because we are against Obama doesn't mean we are for McCain (or whatever) This is the problem with politics, too many assumptions being made.

This bill is only saving what? 1.8 billion? what's that to the 2 trillion we have gone in debt in the last year? And the only reason this bill is saving money is because it's 10 years of taxes for 6 years of benefits. What happens in 10 years? Has anyone though that one through?

Oh and one more thing. Did you know that our government officials are subjected to the rules of the bill? Yup, they exempted themselves. If this is so good....
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Old March 25th, 2010, 09:40 PM   #148 (permalink)
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It was just reported on wgn news, sorry not fox. Wgntv.com should be something on the site. And I didn't say people on the right did it, its just people tired of getting their freedoms stepped on. Noone has been hurt, but this is only the beginning I feel.
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Old March 25th, 2010, 09:47 PM   #149 (permalink)
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Well well. So some of you thought people weren't going to revolt? Well 10 minutes ago, on fox news, democrat congressmen and sentors are under attack. Including being shot at, sent fake anthrax, and thousands of threat letters. Am I so crazy now? Buy your guns and food now. Its gonna get ugly.
I don't know if this is who you were talking about....but it seems the congress man that was shot at was Eric Cantor R-va the shooting is done by the left as is their MO.

FOXNews.com - Cantor Says Campaign Office Was Shot At, Accuses Dems of Exploiting Threats
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Old March 25th, 2010, 09:47 PM   #150 (permalink)
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Unless I missed something I haven't seen anyone violence yet? ...
So lets stop accusing the right of doing anything until it's done.
Yeah, good point, because, you know, actual violence is verboten, but threats of violence are a critical and acceptable part of modern political discourse.
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