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Old March 22nd, 2010, 12:25 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Healthcare Reform - Obama

There has been an uproar in my community over the passing of the new healthcare reform. Personally, I have no opinion on the subject which is what brings me here.

The reasoning behind my lack of opinion is that I was no reasoning to base an opinion off of. My community -- for the lack of a better word -- is a rich, white, Chicago suburb. They are extremely against any tax increase to pay for others. All I here about is how bad Obama is and how he is going to raise taxes and make the wealthy pay for the less fortunate etc.. So people are even calling him a communist -- though I find that a tad extreme. Anyways, I don't feel basing my opinion of Obama doesn't seem to be the most suitable thing. I would like to base it off actual knowledge, the issues and decision he's made/is making and the outcome of these.

What will come of this new reform, both good and bad, ranging from its affects on ALL people? What other proposed decisions are there and what are the possible outcomes of them?

It is not my intention to cause a massive arguement. I'm just looking to find the truth behind some of these issues, not the biased side (which, I guess, I'll probably receive from some of you as well).

I must end this lengthy post for now. My hands is cramping up being that I typed all of this from my Devour. If there are any grammatical mistakes, I'll correct them once I reach a computer.

Let's not be too hostile,

Jared

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Old March 22nd, 2010, 12:59 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I don't mean to be rude, but if you do not understand the ramifications of this bill at this point you need to read....A LOT. Just because this passed congress doesn't mean this is law yet. I have a feeling there will be some lawsuits questioning the constitutionality of this bill.

I will say that your right to make decisions to effect your quality of life will take a hit if this becomes law. But please don't take my word for it, understand it yourself.
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 01:12 AM   #3 (permalink)
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People can argue over the constitutionality of this bill all they want, but one fact will always remain.

This. Country. Can. Not. Afford. This. Period.

Simple economics + learning from history's mistakes is apparently ignored by our government.
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 01:40 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Exactly. I have talked to many people in the UK about this kind of healthcare plan, and they are ok with it. But they really haven't known anything else.... They have rationed medicines, wait times through the roof, and things like MRSA killing people off in droves, due to THIS VERY PLAN. We need to protest, and be heard. Obama is a socialist, and the only people supporting this, are people who feel they shouldn't have to work for a living, and the world owes them something.
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 04:34 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Looks like it passed 220-211.

The cost to us will be $938 billion (as of now).

Medicaid will be expanded by $434 billion.

Everyone will be required to have insurance or face fines by the government.

To pay for this, $400 billion in new taxes and $500 billion in cuts to hospitals and nursing homes.

I know we should be rejoicing over the help some will get from this expansion of government, but I have this sinking feeling....
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 05:30 AM   #6 (permalink)
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The United States just became a communist nation.

Next they will be raiding the bank accounts of bill gates, steve jobs, eric schmidt, etc, and pretend to be robin hood. Then business will move out the the states, the states will fall. It happened to russia. Why wouldn't it happen here.
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 05:34 AM   #7 (permalink)
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ARTICLECOMMENTS (23)Updated March 21, 2010
What Price Victory?
By Liz Peek - FOXNews.com
There is little doubt that the health care bill passed on Sunday night will likely mean less satisfactory health care for the majority of Americans.

PRINTEMAILSHARE RECOMMEND (3)
President Obama and his Democratic colleagues in Congress are celebrating the passage of a health care bill, heedless of the wound that their struggle has inflicted on the United States. The ugly battle has cost the president his popularity and his credibility, and has undermined the country’s confidence in our legislative process. It has distracted from efforts to right our economic ship and put our citizens back to work. Worst of all, just as Baby Boomers came to distrust government during the Vietnam War, so will a new generation now be forever skeptical of our country’s body politic.

Did President Obama ever have doubts? Did those protesters heckling his motorcade or taunting members of Congress penetrate that shield of self-assurance? Did voters who spurned his candidates in recent elections jiggle his equanimity? Who knows? Certainly he did not, perhaps could not, allow himself to waiver. Instead, Obama became so dug in on his quest to pass a health care bill that the impact of the conflict and the quality of the legislation became insignificant.

I have seen this before. As an analyst on Wall Street, I and my peers would occasionally find ourselves on the wrong side of a stock recommendation. Given our influence, changing an opinion could have serious consequences; it was not easy to lurch from “buy” to “sell.” We could get locked in, knowing that the ground under us was eroding as facts and prospects changed. The longer it went on, the more we forged fact from fantasy and plugged the holes in our arguments with doughy generalizations. I remember the look -- that look of bulldog certainty – on the faces of analysts holding fast to a losing proposition.

President Obama has had that look for months. He must know that this bill is a dud. It contains no real reform of the inefficient way medical treatments are charged to consumers and insurers, the ultimate source of spiraling costs. The projected fiscal benefits are bogus; honest analysis shows that the legislation will add to our deficit and drive up medical costs. No sane person can possibly imagine that we will provide medical care for an additional 30 million people without straining our health care infrastructure and pushing prices of doctor visits and medicines higher. Responsible people who have championed this bill have willfully ignored the fiscal tomfoolery because they believe passionately that we should have universal health care in this wealthy country. In their view that is justification enough for this bitter year-long battle.

The full consequences of the health care bill will become visible over time. I doubt they will be positive; most likely the expense will vastly exceed expectations, as was the case for Social Security and Medicare. Let us hope the legislation will eventually be changed to incorporate ideas that could actually lower costs, such as assuring that people have some “skin in the game” in their health care expenditures. Doubtless there will be subtle rationing in treatments; the country’s aging population more or less guarantees that process in any case. Overall, though certainly it will help those without coverage today, the bill just passed will likely mean less satisfactory health care for the majority of Americans.


The consequences near term are hard to gauge. The country is still trying to recover from a terrible financial crisis; millions are out of work and the last readings on consumer confidence were not encouraging. The health care bill will add to our tax burden and raise the cost of hiring workers. It has used up much of the federal government’s incremental taxing capacity. At the same time, states and cities across the country face crippling fiscal deficits that will also necessitate higher taxes and may lead to public sector layoffs. These challenges are not simple; political leaders will need widespread support from voters to make tough decisions. There will need to be sacrifices. Unfortunately, the country is not in a compliant mood. The bitter battle has drawn hard lines in the political sand – ironic for a president who campaigned on a promise to reduce partisan frictions.

Was it worth it? Boosters laud passage of the health care bill as an historic event. Yes, it is – and so was the Charge of the Light Brigade.

Liz Peek is a financial columnist and frequent Fox Forum contributor.

Fox Forum is on Twitter. Follow us @fxnopinion.
FOXNews.com - What Price Victory?
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 06:40 AM   #8 (permalink)
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The United States just became a communist nation.

Next they will be raiding the bank accounts of bill gates, steve jobs, eric schmidt, etc, and pretend to be robin hood. Then business will move out the the states, the states will fall. It happened to russia. Why wouldn't it happen here.
No no no.

If you are in a secure job or rich you are OK. If you are VERY poor you are OK - you have Medicaid. If you are elderly you are ok - you have Medicare. There are 32 million other Americans who are not ok.

SOME have not bothered to get insurance when they could have - but not all 32 million of them.

A large number have sky-rocketing premiums, a significant number can't get insurance because of so-called pre-existing conditions - what are they supposed to do?

OK, what has been passed might not be the best solution but it will be better than the status quo.

What we have in the UK is not perfect, it is state run so bureaucracy does get the better of it at times - but I would rather have that than vested self interest running the system which only wants to look after people who are not likely to get sick.

Helping the less fortunate is not communism - it's not even socialism - it's basic decency. And please don't tell me charities should pick up the tab - it's a far bigger problem than charities can deal with.

If there is a tax increase you will hardly notice it.
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 06:41 AM   #9 (permalink)
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How much of this was done because Obama really thought this bill was a great idea? I've been hearing that without the passing of this, his term just would've been sunk.

Why didn't they focus on something like unemployment which, to me, seems like it affects more people (though that may just be because it has affect me directly but the lack of healthcare hasn't.
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 06:50 AM   #10 (permalink)
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How much of this was done because Obama really thought this bill was a great idea? I've been hearing that without the passing of this, his term just would've been sunk.

Why didn't they focus on something like unemployment which, to me, seems like it affects more people (though that may just be because it has affect me directly but the lack of healthcare hasn't.
It is one of the promises he was elected on so yes, he would have been sunk without it.

Just because lack of healthcare hasn't affected you yet, does not mean that it will not later on.
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 08:37 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Just to be clear for those who oppose reading, this bill isn't universal health care. So if you like coming off as having some semblance of a clue about what you are speaking of, ditch that notion.

I feel that many people who sling around words like socialist have zero clue what that term actually means and more importantly, what socialist goods and services we use every day here in the good ole US of A. So for those of you who are in the dark, here's a list of socialist goods and services that every American enjoys. If you are against socialism, put your money where your big mouth is and go ahead and STOP taking advantage of these socialist services:

-Social Security
-Medicare/Medicaid
-State Children's Health Insurance Programs (SCHIP)
-Police, Fire, and Emergency Services
-US Postal Service
-Roads and Highways
-Air Travel (regulated by the socialist FAA)
-US railway system
-Public subways and metro systems
-Public bus and lightrail systems
-Rest areas on highways
-sidewalks
-All government funded local and state projects
-public water and sewer services (goodbye socialist toilet, socialist shower, socialist dishwasher, socialist kitchen sink, socialist outdoor hose)
-public and state universities and colleges
-public primary and secondary schools
-Sesame Street (all of PBS in fact)
-publicly funded anti-drug use education
-public museums
-libraries
-public parks and beaches
-state and national parks
-public zoos
-unemployment insurance
-municipal garbage and recycling services
-treatment at any hospital or clinic that ever received funding from local, state, or the federal government (pretty much all of them)
-medical services and medications that were created or derived from any government grant or research funding (pretty much all of them)
-socialist byproducts of government institutions such as duct tape and velcro (you know, inventions of that Nazi-esque organization called NASA)
-Use of the internet, email, and networked computers (the DoD's ARPANET was the basis for computer networking. Go ahead and cancel your Android Forums account because by participating in this thread, you are enjoying the fruits of socialist services).
-foodstuffs, meats, produce, and crops that were grown with, fed with, raised with, or that contain inputs from crops grown with government subsidies.
-clothing made from crops (cotton) that were grown with or that contain inputs from government subsidies. You know, like that "Made in the USA" t-shirt you're probably wearing with OBAMANATION printed on it. You hypocrite.
-All anti-socialist veterans of the government run socialist military must forego their VA benefits and insist on paying for their own medical care.
-touring government buildings such as the Capitol.

In addition, those who denounce socialism should never visit the following “socialist” locations:
-Smithsonian museums such as the Air and Space Museum or Museum of American History.,
-the socialist Washington, Lincoln, and Jefferson Monuments.
-the government operated Statue of Liberty.
-the grand canyon
-the socialist World War II and Vietnam Veterans Memorial
-the government run socialist propaganda location known as Arlington National Cemetery

Also, in keeping with an anti-socialism rhetoric, I would require you to protest the government funded and therefore socialist military of the United States.

What I want to know is where all you "fiscal conservatives" were when Bush passed his tax cuts for the rich and wealthy which cost this country 2 TRILLION dollars. This health care plan is a drop in the bucket compared to that. Republicans spend 2 trillion on a tax break for the rich, spend over 1 trillion on 2 wars (billions of which have been siphoned off to the private contractors who contribute to Republican campaigns) and another trillion give or take a few bucks on a prescription drug bill that has served to basically enrich the pharmaceutical companies.

And NOW Republicans decide to tighten the pocketbook? Give me a break. Any outcrying about this HC bill from the right is completely disingenuous. The Republican spending I outlined above makes the cost of this healthcare bill look like petty cash. So spare me the outrage.

Look. Medical expenses are the #1 cause of personal bankruptcy in this country. This policy goes a long way to counter that. That means those of you who have or have loved ones who have cancer, will no longer accumulate hundreds of thousands of dollars in expenses to keep you alive. And your insurance provider will have to commit a criminal act to drop you from their plan. I don't know about any of you but as a responsible husband and parent, part of my financial plan included having at least $20,000 in savings designated specifically for medical emergencies. Guess what? I can now (well after this bill goes into effect in 4 years) use that money to improve my house, buy a new car, take a much needed vacation, or put into my sons' college fund.

This bill will eliminate pre-existing conditions for children. That means those of you who are parents, no longer have to worry about your insurance provider denying coverage to your child who had asthma from birth.

This bill will also give access to insurance to Americans who are uninsured because of pre-existing conditions through a temporary high-risk pool. MSG me if you are unclear what this means.

This bill will prohibit insurance companies from dropping people when they get sick in all individual plans.

This bill will counter Bush's horrible Prescription Drug Bill by lowering the costs of prescription drugs for seniors.

This bill will offer tax credits to small businesses who purchase health coverage.

This bill will eliminate lifetime coverage limits and annual coverage limits on ALL insurance plans. This means you can get sick more than once or twice and not worry about having to pay out of pocket if you get sick more than the amount the insurance companies say you can get sick.

This bill will allow coverage of an insured's child until 26. This means that 23-year-old of yours who will be hit one day by a drunk driver and spend six months recovering in the hospital will now not go bankrupt because you will be able to keep him on your insurance policy.

This bill will require new plans to cover preventative services and immunizations without cost-sharing. Meaning the insurance companies can't bump up everyone's premiums to offer this.

This bill will ensure consumers have access to an effective internal and external appeals process to appeal new insurance plan decisions. This means there will no longer be that feeling of helplessness when the insurance company bounces you around from one service agent to the next and keeps prolonging your case and denying the payout of claims.

This bill will require premium rebates to enrollees from insurers with high administrative expenditures and require public disclosure of the percent of premiums applied to overhead costs. This means that if the insurance company is performing inefficiently, hiring more workers than it needs to handle the paperwork, they cannot pass their overhead onto you via your premium. They have to disclose how much of your premium is due to their overhead.

Do you understand that insurance companies are FOR PROFIT companies? Do you REALLY understand what that means? That if it's a choice between you and a dollar, the dollar will win? Is that what you're fighting for?

This bill will give people the peace of mind that if they lose their job, a very likely scenario in this recession, that they will still be able to obtain medical care.

32 million of our brothers and sisters who would not have have health care coverage will have it because of this bill.

150,000 people who would have died will live because of this bill.

Our deficit will be reduced by $138 billion over the next decade because of this bill, offsetting some of the damage Bush & Co. did.

Republicans have been consistently wrong about the effects of social programs and economic programs proposed by Democrats. Wrong on Social Security, wrong on Medicare, and wrong on Clinton's economic plans which resulted in the biggest surplus in American history which Bush, in 8 years, turned into the biggest deficit in American history.

Today is a great day for America.
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 11:14 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jradicle11 View Post
How much of this was done because Obama really thought this bill was a great idea? I've been hearing that without the passing of this, his term just would've been sunk.

Why didn't they focus on something like unemployment which, to me, seems like it affects more people (though that may just be because it has affect me directly but the lack of healthcare hasn't.
He did account for unemployment, this will create 20k new jobs for the Gov. Jobs like the IRS agent who will show up to fine you when you cant afford to pay, or all this new Gov employees who will now be getting cushy retirement benefits, who do you think will pay for those?
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 11:24 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by mrletternumber View Post
Just to be clear for those who oppose reading, this bill isn't universal health care. So if you like coming off as having some semblance of a clue about what you are speaking of, ditch that notion.

I feel that many people who sling around words like socialist have zero clue what that term actually means and more importantly, what socialist goods and services we use every day here in the good ole US of A. So for those of you who are in the dark, here's a list of socialist goods and services that every American enjoys. If you are against socialism, put your money where your big mouth is and go ahead and STOP taking advantage of these socialist services:

-Social Security
-Medicare/Medicaid
-State Children's Health Insurance Programs (SCHIP)
-Police, Fire, and Emergency Services
-US Postal Service
-Roads and Highways
-Air Travel (regulated by the socialist FAA)
-US railway system
-Public subways and metro systems
-Public bus and lightrail systems
-Rest areas on highways
-sidewalks
-All government funded local and state projects
-public water and sewer services (goodbye socialist toilet, socialist shower, socialist dishwasher, socialist kitchen sink, socialist outdoor hose)
-public and state universities and colleges
-public primary and secondary schools
-Sesame Street (all of PBS in fact)
-publicly funded anti-drug use education
-public museums
-libraries
-public parks and beaches
-state and national parks
-public zoos
-unemployment insurance
-municipal garbage and recycling services
-treatment at any hospital or clinic that ever received funding from local, state, or the federal government (pretty much all of them)
-medical services and medications that were created or derived from any government grant or research funding (pretty much all of them)
-socialist byproducts of government institutions such as duct tape and velcro (you know, inventions of that Nazi-esque organization called NASA)
-Use of the internet, email, and networked computers (the DoD's ARPANET was the basis for computer networking. Go ahead and cancel your Android Forums account because by participating in this thread, you are enjoying the fruits of socialist services).
-foodstuffs, meats, produce, and crops that were grown with, fed with, raised with, or that contain inputs from crops grown with government subsidies.
-clothing made from crops (cotton) that were grown with or that contain inputs from government subsidies. You know, like that "Made in the USA" t-shirt you're probably wearing with OBAMANATION printed on it. You hypocrite.
-All anti-socialist veterans of the government run socialist military must forego their VA benefits and insist on paying for their own medical care.
-touring government buildings such as the Capitol.

In addition, those who denounce socialism should never visit the following “socialist” locations:
-Smithsonian museums such as the Air and Space Museum or Museum of American History.,
-the socialist Washington, Lincoln, and Jefferson Monuments.
-the government operated Statue of Liberty.
-the grand canyon
-the socialist World War II and Vietnam Veterans Memorial
-the government run socialist propaganda location known as Arlington National Cemetery

Also, in keeping with an anti-socialism rhetoric, I would require you to protest the government funded and therefore socialist military of the United States.

What I want to know is where all you "fiscal conservatives" were when Bush passed his tax cuts for the rich and wealthy which cost this country 2 TRILLION dollars. This health care plan is a drop in the bucket compared to that. Republicans spend 2 trillion on a tax break for the rich, spend over 1 trillion on 2 wars (billions of which have been siphoned off to the private contractors who contribute to Republican campaigns) and another trillion give or take a few bucks on a prescription drug bill that has served to basically enrich the pharmaceutical companies.

And NOW Republicans decide to tighten the pocketbook? Give me a break. Any outcrying about this HC bill from the right is completely disingenuous. The Republican spending I outlined above makes the cost of this healthcare bill look like petty cash. So spare me the outrage.

Look. Medical expenses are the #1 cause of personal bankruptcy in this country. This policy goes a long way to counter that. That means those of you who have or have loved ones who have cancer, will no longer accumulate hundreds of thousands of dollars in expenses to keep you alive. And your insurance provider will have to commit a criminal act to drop you from their plan. I don't know about any of you but as a responsible husband and parent, part of my financial plan included having at least $20,000 in savings designated specifically for medical emergencies. Guess what? I can now (well after this bill goes into effect in 4 years) use that money to improve my house, buy a new car, take a much needed vacation, or put into my sons' college fund.

This bill will eliminate pre-existing conditions for children. That means those of you who are parents, no longer have to worry about your insurance provider denying coverage to your child who had asthma from birth.

This bill will also give access to insurance to Americans who are uninsured because of pre-existing conditions through a temporary high-risk pool. MSG me if you are unclear what this means.

This bill will prohibit insurance companies from dropping people when they get sick in all individual plans.

This bill will counter Bush's horrible Prescription Drug Bill by lowering the costs of prescription drugs for seniors.

This bill will offer tax credits to small businesses who purchase health coverage.

This bill will eliminate lifetime coverage limits and annual coverage limits on ALL insurance plans. This means you can get sick more than once or twice and not worry about having to pay out of pocket if you get sick more than the amount the insurance companies say you can get sick.

This bill will allow coverage of an insured's child until 26. This means that 23-year-old of yours who will be hit one day by a drunk driver and spend six months recovering in the hospital will now not go bankrupt because you will be able to keep him on your insurance policy.

This bill will require new plans to cover preventative services and immunizations without cost-sharing. Meaning the insurance companies can't bump up everyone's premiums to offer this.

This bill will ensure consumers have access to an effective internal and external appeals process to appeal new insurance plan decisions. This means there will no longer be that feeling of helplessness when the insurance company bounces you around from one service agent to the next and keeps prolonging your case and denying the payout of claims.

This bill will require premium rebates to enrollees from insurers with high administrative expenditures and require public disclosure of the percent of premiums applied to overhead costs. This means that if the insurance company is performing inefficiently, hiring more workers than it needs to handle the paperwork, they cannot pass their overhead onto you via your premium. They have to disclose how much of your premium is due to their overhead.

Do you understand that insurance companies are FOR PROFIT companies? Do you REALLY understand what that means? That if it's a choice between you and a dollar, the dollar will win? Is that what you're fighting for?

This bill will give people the peace of mind that if they lose their job, a very likely scenario in this recession, that they will still be able to obtain medical care.

32 million of our brothers and sisters who would not have have health care coverage will have it because of this bill.

150,000 people who would have died will live because of this bill.

Our deficit will be reduced by $138 billion over the next decade because of this bill, offsetting some of the damage Bush & Co. did.

Republicans have been consistently wrong about the effects of social programs and economic programs proposed by Democrats. Wrong on Social Security, wrong on Medicare, and wrong on Clinton's economic plans which resulted in the biggest surplus in American history which Bush, in 8 years, turned into the biggest deficit in American history.

Today is a great day for America.
Entirely too many lies here for me to invest my time to prove them wrong. Please do you research before believing anything in this post. This is exactly the kind of misinformation that got us here.
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 11:26 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Funny, you engage in health care debate and then refuse to address facts from the other side.

Or is it because Limbaugh/Hannity/Beck/O'Reilly haven't yet given you the words to address my post?
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 11:35 AM   #15 (permalink)
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He did account for unemployment, this will create 20k new jobs for the Gov. Jobs like the IRS agent who will show up to fine you when you cant afford to pay, or all this new Gov employees who will now be getting cushy retirement benefits, who do you think will pay for those?
Under 17,000 jobs. Sorry but I'm a stickler for accurate data. I don't like embellishment especially relating to factual data that is easily researchable.

Why wouldn't you be able to afford to pay CampD? Are you poor? Can you not hold a job?

If you're under certain pay threshholds, you get subsidized.

For those that ARE interested in the facts, from the NYTimes interactive health care reform chart:

Starting in 2014, most Americans will be required to buy health insurance or pay a penalty.


  • The penalty will be phased in, starting at 1 percent of income in 2014, and rising to the maximum of $2,085 for a family in 2016.
  • American Indians don’t have to buy insurance. Those with religious objections or a financial hardship can also avoid the requirement. And if you would pay more than 8 percent of your income for the cheapest available plan, you will not be penalized for failing to buy coverage. (for those of you who are math challenged, 8% of a $35,000 a year salary is $2,800 which equates to $233.00 a month for insurance...so essentially, anyone who has even the crappiest of plans will not be penalized.)
  • Those who are exempt, or under 30, can buy a policy that only pays for catastrophic medical costs. It must allow for three primary care visits a year as well.
Heck, even when I was 15 bagging groceries at A&P, I wouldn't have penalized.

And if you're a parent of a family and don't want to provide health care for your wife and children, you SHOULD be penalized because you're a bad parent.

Man, so much fear about nothing.
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 11:41 AM   #16 (permalink)
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At my wife's office, this bill will make it cheaper to pay the fine than to provide insurance coverage. Then the employee that once was covered, now is forced to buy their own coverage.

If this was such a good bill, why did Obama, Pelosi, etc have to 'buy' votes? Why the special deals (Nebraska) and the Executive order (Stupak).

No Dem would also answer any questions directly about how this was going to be paid for. Each one of them had the same answer....pre-existing coverage, can't be dropped if you get sick....blah, blah, blah....answer the question....they can't....FAIL!
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 12:04 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Cheaper for who mrjam3s? Your wife or her employer? Please specify so I can properly reply.

As for how it will be paid for, most of the money is coming from taxes on tanning equipment and medical devices, as well as social security. There's not going to be much if any additional burden to the general taxpayer at all.

Again, what is being passed isn't socialized medicine. It's a reform of the way insurance companies are allowed to behave towards their customers, and a public option for those who don't work under employers that provide healthcare. Since employers are heavily encouraged through taxes to offer insurance, it's basically a way to provide coverage to freelancers and very small business owners without breaking the bank.

What people seem to forget is that we're already paying for people who don't have insurance. Both through taxes and through increased hospital costs, since they have to cover the free treatment they're required by law to give somehow. Unethical practices by insurance companies have got to stop, and while this may or may not have been the right way to do it, at least it's something.

Right now, not a dime of insurance premiums is subject to taxation unless you paymore than $10,200 in premiums per year. I don't pay that much for myself/wife/son, do you? All that this bill does is provide a way to get money from people who are buying really expensive plans that include unnecessary stuff like gym memberships. The general taxpayer won't be affected by them.

The reason perhaps you weren't getting answers from Democrats is because maybe they were under the assumption that you're an intelligent person that did some research, like looking up the finances behind this bill at the website for the Congressional Budget Office.
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 12:12 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Exactly. I have talked to many people in the UK about this kind of healthcare plan, and they are ok with it. But they really haven't known anything else.... They have rationed medicines, wait times through the roof, and things like MRSA killing people off in droves, due to THIS VERY PLAN. We need to protest, and be heard. Obama is a socialist, and the only people supporting this, are people who feel they shouldn't have to work for a living, and the world owes them something.
I work for a living and I'm glad to see that people who couldn't get healthcare before now have a chance at it. I'm willing to pay extra to make this happen if need be. You are welcome to protest and lie and shout your little hate filled rants, but I'm not sure you are going to do yourself any favors in the long run. Enjoy your Fox News worldview while it lasts.
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 12:44 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I work for a living and I'm glad to see that people who couldn't get healthcare before now have a chance at it. I'm willing to pay extra to make this happen if need be. You are welcome to protest and lie and shout your little hate filled rants, but I'm not sure you are going to do yourself any favors in the long run. Enjoy your Fox News worldview while it lasts.
I feel the same. I am part of a nation filled with other people. We rise as one and fall as one. I work full time and have a fledgling business on the side. I'm happy to pay a few dollars extra to provide health insurance to those who are not as fortunate as me because if tragedy struck and I was suddenly out of a job, I would want there to be a safety net for me so that my family could receive health care while I was looking for more work. This is what the concept of a united country is: we look out for each other.

Also, IOWA, I have to call bullshit. According to a NHS Survey conducted in 2004 by the UK Department of Health (the most recent survey to date), 92% of Brit inpatients said they were satisfied with their treatment; 87% of GP users were satisfied with their GP; 87% of hospital outpatients were satisfied with the service they received; and 70% of Accident and Emergency department users reported being satisfied. If you want me to drudge up the numbers I will but let's just say Brits are FAR more satisfied with their hybrid system of NHS and Private Health Insurance (you did know that right? That Brits can opt to purchase private insurance or opt to go with the nationalized health care system?) than Americans are with our private health care system.

Also, what exactly do you mean by "wait times are through the roof" and where did you get your data?

Here's an article from Businessweek. I doubt you'll actually read it so I'll do the work for you:

Quote:
If you find a suspicious-looking mole and want to see a dermatologist, you can expect an average wait of 38 days in the U.S., and up to 73 days if you live in Boston, according to researchers at the University of California at San Francisco who studied the matter. Got a knee injury? A 2004 survey by medical recruitment firm Merritt, Hawkins & Associates found the average time needed to see an orthopedic surgeon ranges from 8 days in Atlanta to 43 days in Los Angeles. Nationwide, the average is 17 days. "Waiting is definitely a problem in the U.S., especially for basic care," says Karen Davis, president of the nonprofit Commonwealth Fund, which studies health-care policy.

All this time spent "queuing," as other nations call it, stems from too much demand and too little supply. Only one-third of U.S. doctors are general practitioners, compared with half in most European countries. On top of that, only 40% of U.S. doctors have arrangements for after-hours care, vs. 75% in the rest of the industrialized world. Consequently, some 26% of U.S. adults in one survey went to an emergency room in the past two years because they couldn't get in to see their regular doctor, a significantly higher rate than in other countries.

There is no systemized collection of data on wait times in the U.S. That makes it difficult to draw comparisons with countries that have national health systems, where wait times are not only tracked but made public. However, a 2005 survey by the Commonwealth Fund of sick adults in six nations found that only 47% of U.S. patients could get a same- or next-day appointment for a medical problem, worse than every other country except Canada.
The only areas in which the US has short waiting times? If you need non-emergency surgery such as a hip replacement. Oh, and that hip replacement? That's a procedure most often needed by seniors who are - you guessed it - covered under Medicare. That nasty socialist program that 68% of seniors are happy with compared to the 48% satisfaction rate of the rest of Americans covered under private insurance.

Again, just in case you're bad at math, that means more people are satisfied with Medicare than those who are satisfied with private health care. The proof is in the pudding my friend.
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 12:52 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Cheaper for who mrjam3s? Your wife or her employer? Please specify so I can properly reply.

As for how it will be paid for, most of the money is coming from taxes on tanning equipment and medical devices, as well as social security. There's not going to be much if any additional burden to the general taxpayer at all.

Again, what is being passed isn't socialized medicine. It's a reform of the way insurance companies are allowed to behave towards their customers, and a public option for those who don't work under employers that provide healthcare. Since employers are heavily encouraged through taxes to offer insurance, it's basically a way to provide coverage to freelancers and very small business owners without breaking the bank.

What people seem to forget is that we're already paying for people who don't have insurance. Both through taxes and through increased hospital costs, since they have to cover the free treatment they're required by law to give somehow. Unethical practices by insurance companies have got to stop, and while this may or may not have been the right way to do it, at least it's something.

Right now, not a dime of insurance premiums is subject to taxation unless you paymore than $10,200 in premiums per year. I don't pay that much for myself/wife/son, do you? All that this bill does is provide a way to get money from people who are buying really expensive plans that include unnecessary stuff like gym memberships. The general taxpayer won't be affected by them.

The reason perhaps you weren't getting answers from Democrats is because maybe they were under the assumption that you're an intelligent person that did some research, like looking up the finances behind this bill at the website for the Congressional Budget Office.
Well, it's obvious what side you're on and what side I'm on. I don't believe I can change your view and vice versa. There is information all over the place that supports your side and information that supports my view. You use the CBO info, I do not. Simple disagreement.

There was a vote. Like it or not, I have to go with it. Getting into debates like this is a waste of time....my time, at least.

The only thing I can do is voice my opinion to my lawmakers, then vote.
The American people are a smart bunch...and as President Obama said "that's why there are elections". I disagree with this bill and I will use my vote to say so.
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 01:00 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I have a feeling there will be some lawsuits questioning the constitutionality of this bill.
On what basis?
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 01:04 PM   #22 (permalink)
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All of these arguments for or against are moot seeing as Congress has absolutely no authority under the Constitution to mandate every citizen to buy a product.

There are already a dozen or more states that are planning to file suit against the federal government as soon as this is signed into law. This will quickly make its way to the Supreme Court where it should be unceremoniously tossed into the trash pile of congressional follies.

If it does stand, I plan to take full advantage of what our Democrat friends have done. I will negotiate with my employer to pay me cash instead of insurance, then I will refuse to buy insurance and pay the $750 annual fine to the IRS. Then, because I cannot be denied a policy whenever I decide to apply for one, I will buy insurance if, and only if, I come down with a serious illness.
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 01:27 PM   #23 (permalink)
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While it's not the perfect bill (a perfect bill could never be passed), the obstructionism that was displayed over a life-or-death matter was sickening and sad. No, Republicans should not have been shut out from the beginning, but let's be realistic: not one Republican would have supported any progress on the issue because of how the party has evolved to work regardless of how early they were involved. The same people against progress on this issue would have been against social security and medicare and, in ideological terms, would also be against something as fundamental as public education (government takeover of education, my hard-earned tax money going to educate the lazy (that's right-wing codespeak for anyone who isn't white), hopeless lower classes when I should be paying for my own children, blah blah) or the post office (I don't want the government handling my personal mail!).

We love pretending that we're independent frontier-folk and we don't need the government, but if you got sick or your uninsured neighbor got sick, the costs would be unfathomable, humiliating, and ruinous. In that event, all the absurd nationalistic rhetoric where we cheer that we have the best health care in the world (which in reality we don't) won't make you feel better while you slip through the enormous cracks that exist in supposedly one of the wealthiest nations in the world.

And, no, I'm not an across-the-board liberal or lefty - I'm concerned about unnecessary taxes, wasteful spending, and debt. I'm pragmatic and believe that taxes should go to things that are important. Health care is one of the important things.
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 01:32 PM   #24 (permalink)
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All of these arguments for or against are moot seeing as Congress has absolutely no authority under the Constitution to mandate every citizen to buy a product.

There are already a dozen or more states that are planning to file suit against the federal government as soon as this is signed into law. This will quickly make its way to the Supreme Court where it should be unceremoniously tossed into the trash pile of congressional follies.

If it does stand, I plan to take full advantage of what our Democrat friends have done. I will negotiate with my employer to pay me cash instead of insurance, then I will refuse to buy insurance and pay the $750 annual fine to the IRS. Then, because I cannot be denied a policy whenever I decide to apply for one, I will buy insurance if, and only if, I come down with a serious illness.
I'll bet you $750 dollars you won't do this.

Also, this in no way shape or form violates the Constitution.

If you want to talk Constitutional violations, we can always discuss things like Bush's Military Commissions Act of 2006. That's the kind of stuff you should be scared about.
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 01:45 PM   #25 (permalink)
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No, Republicans should not have been shut out from the beginning, but let's be realistic: not one Republican would have supported any progress on the issue because of how the party has evolved to work regardless of how early they were involved.
Spot on. Yes, I would have preferred a true bi-partisan bill as well, but one side coming further and further off of their preferred position while the other side makes no moves at all is not my idea of bi-partisanship. The Republicans were not involved in the process because they made it plain at the outset that the only involvement they sought was killing any bill that did not include 100% of what they wanted.

I can think of a number of concessions that Democrats made in an effort to court Republican votes, and I really can't think of any significant concessions made by the Republicans (if anyone would care to point any out to me, I'd be interested to know what they are), nor did they get any GOP votes at all. With that being the case, I don't feel a lot of sympathy for them...
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 01:51 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Before I leave for the evening to head home to my family and participate in my fantasy baseball league's draft, I would like to reiterate something that I think is being lost in the mix:

This is a bill regarding (for the most part) health insurance, not health care. This is, I don't know: a government mandate for people to buy health insurance with a combination of insurance laws/subsidies/tax breaks designed so that everyone can get access to a plan they can afford and to prevent malicious insurance company practices.

Remember: this is not the government handing out free health care - this is health insurance and you have to buy it. Much like you have to buy Auto Insurance. The government is going to subsidize a lot of it, but let's keep in mind this is a benefit that the people who are getting it are paying for, not just a freebee the government is handing out.

This is going to create more competition. What a smart insurance company would do is create a wide range of products such as a cheap, bare bones insurance plan for healthy/young people who don't feel they need the same level of coverage as say a guy like me who wants his whole family covered as much as possible. And no, insurance companies are not going to crash and burn - they just got 32 million new customers. Trust me, they're going to be fighting for every one.

This bill was not controversial in the least. We had manufactured controversy. Most of it is predictable and natural evolutions of existing policy. Denial of sick people should have been gone decades ago. Expansion of Medicare happens every 5 years or so. Any controversy was by someone on the hill who mistook obstinance with principles or who was getting campaign advice from Sarah Palin.



I think this picture kinda sums it all up:
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 01:54 PM   #27 (permalink)
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I can think of a number of concessions that Democrats made in an effort to court Republican votes, and I really can't think of any significant concessions made by the Republicans (if anyone would care to point any out to me, I'd be interested to know what they are), nor did they get any GOP votes at all. With that being the case, I don't feel a lot of sympathy for them...
That's what gets me toasty. Despite all the concessions the Dems made, the Republicans still - unanimously - voted no. It points to them intending to vote no all along but trying to screw up the original plan as much as possible before they knew it would pass. Party of No, indeed!

I think from this point out, the Dems should learn from this, ignore any attempts at bipartisanship, and just pass bill after bill after bill with the House majority.


The only thing I want to know is when Rush is moving out of the country!
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 01:58 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I feel the same. I am part of a nation filled with other people. We rise as one and fall as one. I work full time and have a fledgling business on the side. I'm happy to pay a few dollars extra to provide health insurance to those who are not as fortunate as me because if tragedy struck and I was suddenly out of a job, I would want there to be a safety net for me so that my family could receive health care while I was looking for more work. This is what the concept of a united country is: we look out for each other.
+1
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 02:02 PM   #29 (permalink)
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I think this picture kinda sums it all up:
No that doesn't sum anything up. The picture incorrectly associates Rebuplicans alone with unnecessary wars. You do realize that all of your fanboy Democrats voted for this never ending war right? And lets not forget that Obama has no intentions of bringing our troops home. He never has. He is running for 4 more years of Bush. Same shit, different day.

It's mind baffling that people actually believe Obama has good intentions and is actually different than his predecessor. Republicrats are one in the same, and the only way for this country to succeed, is for this government to fail.

Obama should be focused on fixing our economy, rather than coming up with a bill that is sure to bankrupt our country. And yes, this will bankrupt our country. You can't spend money you don't have. Simple economics.
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 02:26 PM   #30 (permalink)
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the government cant even run medicare and medicaid and now they want a new health care plan to screw up on. heck they couldn't even run a whorehouse and went bankrupt( anyone remember the mustang ranch?)

what happened to freedom of choice? by forcing Americans to take this plan or face financial penalties treads peoples very freedom. why should I have to pay more for others health care? I pay into social security that I will never see as it will be bankrupt before i will see it and come on I have to be like 72 before I can file for full benefits. Wheres the option for me not to pay in and invest that money for my retirement.

I am sorry you cant pick and choose bits and pieces of a socialist health care and say it will work. If obamacare is so great then why so much wheeling and dealing to get this pass the first hurdle? why rush something so quick that affects every American in the country. How are people out of work suppose to pay for even this?

if this bill is so great. then why not get rid of medicaid and medicare? then you can take that money and put it towards obamacare and then there would be a true universal health care plan. this bill is just a repackaged medicare plan and in the end will bankrupt an already up to their eye teeth in debt country.

funny how the demacraps say they are listening to the American people voice. well their hearing aid must be faulty as it looks like 80% of the people are saying no. one good thing is those demacraps just sealed their fate. they will be out of a job next election. sad to say it will be to late as the damage will already be done.



if you think this is such a great plan good for you. this reminds me of Jim Jones and drink the cool-aid. well the democraps has handed out the cool-aid. so cheers and drink to the fall of the united states.
 
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 02:43 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Since when hasn't our government spent money it doesn't have? Gov't spending is what pulls a country out of a recession most of the time anyway.
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 02:46 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Since when hasn't our government spent money it doesn't have? Gov't spending is what pulls a country out of a recession most of the time anyway.
so if I am lets say $100,000 in debt.I should spend more money I dont have and it will get me out of the hole? talk about failed logic
 
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 02:52 PM   #33 (permalink)
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the government cant even run medicare and medicaid and now they want a new health care plan to screw up on. heck they couldn't even run a whorehouse and went bankrupt( anyone remember the mustang ranch?)

what happened to freedom of choice? by forcing Americans to take this plan or face financial penalties treads peoples very freedom. why should I have to pay more for others health care? I pay into social security that I will never see as it will be bankrupt before i will see it and come on I have to be like 72 before I can file for full benefits. Wheres the option for me not to pay in and invest that money for my retirement.

I am sorry you cant pick and choose bits and pieces of a socialist health care and say it will work. If obamacare is so great then why so much wheeling and dealing to get this pass the first hurdle? why rush something so quick that affects every American in the country. How are people out of work suppose to pay for even this?

if this bill is so great. then why not get rid of medicaid and medicare? then you can take that money and put it towards obamacare and then there would be a true universal health care plan. this bill is just a repackaged medicare plan and in the end will bankrupt an already up to their eye teeth in debt country.

funny how the demacraps say they are listening to the American people voice. well their hearing aid must be faulty as it looks like 80% of the people are saying no. one good thing is those demacraps just sealed their fate. they will be out of a job next election. sad to say it will be to late as the damage will already be done.



if you think this is such a great plan good for you. this reminds me of Jim Jones and drink the cool-aid. well the democraps has handed out the cool-aid. so cheers and drink to the fall of the united states.
Wow, dude, I don't even know where to begin with this. You're complaining about components that aren't even a part of this bill. Sweet fancy moses.
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 03:06 PM   #34 (permalink)
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so if I am lets say $100,000 in debt.I should spend more money I dont have and it will get me out of the hole? talk about failed logic
Just saying...show the last time our government has had a presidential term where spending didn't go up? If you're going to pull that argument out then you need to address every bill that has passed in the last 60 years.
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 03:11 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Just saying...show the last time our government has had a presidential term where spending didn't go up? If you're going to pull that argument out then you need to address every bill that has passed in the last 60 years.
what makes you think I havent? but the hear and now is obama and this congress thats the issue. cant change history but you can hope they can learn from it.
 
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 03:12 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Isn't the whole essence of debt spending money that you don't have?
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 05:25 PM   #37 (permalink)
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so if I am lets say $100,000 in debt.I should spend more money I dont have and it will get me out of the hole? talk about failed logic
It depends. If you are 100K in the hole and you keep spending, you're probably not going to get out of the hole, but then again you're probably not spending money on things that will help increase your income. If you incur debt to start a business, improve an existing business or get an education that will increase you're earning potential, who knows, maybe you will. When I was a college student, I was flat broke, and when I was a law student, I became buried in debt, but as a result of incurring that debt, my earning power was much higher and I'm in a much better financial position now.

Government spending isn't really comparable to an individual's situation, though, because it's designed to have a much more macro effect. If, as a result of this spending, unemployed people have jobs and are paying taxes, that results in increased revenue. Similarly, if I'm making more money and spending that money, that puts more money in the pockets of local businesses, which in turn bumps up the tax base, etc., etc.

When you're flat broke but you go have a nice dinner anyway, you're screwing yourself because there's not an expectation that this meal is going to come back to you in a meaningful way. Government spending, on the other hand, has the potential to stimulate the economy more generally, which can have a snowball effect if done properly.

This should be obvious, however. Ultimately, the point of this post is that comparing your financial situation to that of an entire economy is just silly.
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 05:58 PM   #38 (permalink)
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If you find a suspicious-looking mole and want to see a dermatologist, you can expect an average wait of 38 days in the U.S., and up to 73 days if you live in Boston, according to researchers at the University of California at San Francisco who studied the matter. Got a knee injury? A 2004 survey by medical recruitment firm Merritt, Hawkins & Associates found the average time needed to see an orthopedic surgeon ranges from 8 days in Atlanta to 43 days in Los Angeles. Nationwide, the average is 17 days.
Odd, if I have a strange mole or want to go in for acne problems I call and make an appointment with my dermatologist office and can get in the next week, if not sooner. When I thought I broke my wrist on a weekend snowboarding trip, I decided to forgo the long wait at the hospital ER and I made an appointment with my orthopedic doctor, who is an ortho surgeon, that monday (that's 2 days since they weren't open on the weekend). When I get sick I normally just go to after-hour clinics. When I have problems that can wait a day or so I normally call up my family doctor and get seen within 3 days depending on how flexible my schedule is for that week.
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 07:22 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Since when hasn't our government spent money it doesn't have? Gov't spending is what pulls a country out of a recession most of the time anyway.
I suggest you do some research... particularly the time frame of the Great Depression. It wasn't government spending that pulled us out, it was allowing the tax payers to have more money to spend. To answer your question, we have always incurred debt as a country, but thanks to Reagan, Clinton, Bush Sr., GW Bush, and now Obama, the spending has gone out of control. The difference is the leader that takes strides to follow the constitution at all costs. The last president to do this was Kennedy. He was ironically assassinated shortly after telling the country that lobbyists and banks would no longer run our country. Unfortunately, this is exactly who our country is run by.

Don't confuse government spending with the rest of us spending money. The more bloated a government, the less money it's citizens have, thus a bankrupt and failing country. It's very simple. There are people who want this to happen, and then there are people who believe the lies they spread. We're like a bunch of re-tarded sheep.

Learning and understanding Austrian economics can go a long ways. Unfortunately, our society tends to think they're right about everything, based on what talking heads feed them. That goes for both ends of the political spectrum.

On a side note, do people really think Obama gives a rat's ass about our well-being? No. Everything he has laid out on the table in regards to his agenda points towards control. More and more control. This is hardly about providing health care for those without it.

Wake up America.
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 07:49 PM   #40 (permalink)
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you people scare me, im okay if you are for reform... IM for reform, healthcare is a mess and because i've just had cancer i have a "pre-existing condition" and that needs to be fixed, but the government deciding to giver EVERYONE health coverage is a mistake. they should have taken steps, made it easier for people to initially get covered. but NOW, if my cancer returns which it is more likely too then me getting it in the first place.... then i have to wait to get cured... do you know how fast testicular cancer spreads? i had it two weeks and was already sick, it kills fast, i don't have time to wait for some government employee who doesn't know shit about cancer to aprove my chemotherapy that WILL SAVE MY LIFE.

health care needs to be fixed, yes, but making a mess that can never be corrected because an IGNORANT president decides to bend rules here and there and shove it through AGAINST the MAJORITY of AMERiCAN people wishes is just damn disrespectful. my government clearly doesn't give a hoot about me anymore.

when i finish reading the 3,000~ page bill that was released friday, i'll let you know how i think they should vote... oh wait they already managed to read the whole thing and vote in 2 days.......

BIG HUGE RED FREAKIN FLAGS should go up when a bill is 3000 pages and being voted on 2 days later... WTF PEOPLE< WAKE UP!!!!!!!
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 07:56 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Under 17,000 jobs. Sorry but I'm a stickler for accurate data. I don't like embellishment especially relating to factual data that is easily researchable.

17,000 is the Democratic estimate, there's no "factual data" yet. what will the #s be by the time its implemented? or a year after? They had the same estimates for the energy commision when that became another BIG arm of the goverment, what are the numbers now 175K, I'm sure you have the facts.

Why wouldn't you be able to afford to pay CampD? Are you poor? Can you not hold a job?

Did I say I wouldn't be able to pay?
Typical response "character assignation" but sinse you asked, I own a small buisness in Mass, have for 25 yrs, so I do have a little first hand experience with which this latest verision of O'bama's bill is fasioned after. Complying with and being fully insured for me and my employees and still trying to make a profit is about impossible. We get underbid by so called contrators that dont carry insurance, it will now be even easier for them to bid even lower, hell there going to be getting free insurance while my bill goes up. This state is going deeper in debt every second becuse of our so called free health care and your going to try and tell me and everone else that this is going to lower TAXES!

If you're under certain pay threshholds, you get subsidized.

For those that ARE interested in the facts, from the NYTimes interactive health care reform chart:

Ahh, now I see where you get your long winded responses from!
Facts from the NY times, now thats funny!

Starting in 2014, most Americans will be required to buy health insurance or pay a penalty.


  • The penalty will be phased in, starting at 1 percent of income in 2014, and rising to the maximum of $2,085 for a family in 2016.
  • American Indians don’t have to buy insurance. Those with religious objections or a financial hardship can also avoid the requirement. And if you would pay more than 8 percent of your income for the cheapest available plan, you will not be penalized for failing to buy coverage. (for those of you who are math challenged, 8% of a $35,000 a year salary is $2,800 which equates to $233.00 a month for insurance...so essentially, anyone who has even the crappiest of plans will not be penalized.)
  • Those who are exempt, or under 30, can buy a policy that only pays for catastrophic medical costs. It must allow for three primary care visits a year as well.
Heck, even when I was 15 bagging groceries at A&P, I wouldn't have penalized.

And if you're a parent of a family and don't want to provide health care for your wife and children, you SHOULD be penalized because you're a bad parent.

Man, so much fear about nothing.
Nothing, Hmm,,, time will tell.
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 08:39 PM   #42 (permalink)
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basically what this bill says, if your middle class, your screwed.
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 08:58 PM   #43 (permalink)
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I work at a major university hospital, and we provide millions of dollars of indigent care to people from throughout the state. We are required to care for the state citizens because we are a state supported university, however we are reimbursed <10% of what it costs to care for these citizens. I absolutely support additonal taxes on the wealthy to increase the reimbursement that we get for indigent care. Face it, people who don't have insurance ultimately cost more to care for, they use the emergency department as their doctor office. Doctor offices WON'T see you if you don't have insurance, or don't have cash in advance. Make it so that people are on some kind of insurance so that they aren't afraid to go to the doctor's office because of the cost, and quit clogging up the emergency department with.... sore throats, ingrown toenails, tooth abcess, fevers, colds etc.
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 09:07 PM   #44 (permalink)
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....

-Social Security
-Medicare/Medicaid
-State Children's Health Insurance Programs (SCHIP)
-Police, Fire, and Emergency Services
-US Postal Service
-Roads and Highways
....
Edited for sanity.

This is a beautiful post. How many failed government programs can YOU count in this post? I lost count and grew bored.
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 09:16 PM   #45 (permalink)
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basically what this bill says, if your middle class, your screwed.
True that. And I'd actually be willing to venture a bit further out into kookie conspiracy theory. The big O is obviously a Bill Ayers socialist. You nut job Tories that deny it need to place one foot back in reality and study a bit of history. Ayers and the Weatherman Underground had the idea of overloading capitalism until it failed in order to bring about a communist revolution. I would be willing to say that this has nothing to do with "helping people" (whether they want it or not, I may add) but has everything to do with the fact that since O has been in office, everything he's done has been an attempt at breaking the back of our great republic.

It's time to take it back.

You unAmerican, yellow, leftist, Tory, tyranophiles need to move on. You're no longer welcome here.

Edit: I might add that you just gave the Americans their rallying cry for 2012. Say goodbye to the one term savior.
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 09:30 PM   #46 (permalink)
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what happened to freedom of choice? by forcing Americans to take this plan or face financial penalties treads peoples very freedom. why should I have to pay more for others health care?

Virginia's Attorney General is planning on filing a lawsuit because the federal government cannot force its citizens to buy something..... Hmm, I am REQUIRED to buy auto insurance or pay a $500 penalty to the state to help offset the damage that other uninsured motorists cause, but not to benefit me.
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 09:47 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Virginia's Attorney General is planning on filing a lawsuit because the federal government cannot force its citizens to buy something..... Hmm, I am REQUIRED to buy auto insurance or pay a $500 penalty to the state to help offset the damage that other uninsured motorists cause, but not to benefit me.
Only required if you drive

should we require everyone to get auto insurance regardless just to lower the cost a little? does not make sense, and while we are on this subject, why not earthquake insurance? if everyone got it, it would also lower costs, a little bit, if everyone participated.

health insurance is an agreement between you and the insurance company to pay for certain procedures, meds and services as per the policy. It is a good like anything else. Insurance companies do not provide health care, Doctors do. just because one has insurance does not mean one will get care. period. By the same token just because one does not have health insurance does not mean they will not get care. who is our government to say who should buy what and at what cost and coverage?


if you are so hot to help others, why are you not going to someone on your street or in your neighborhood, find someone who cannot afford that heart transplant, and pay for it out of your pocket? also include their follow up care and meds/ Why arn't any of theses liberals doing this?

I have not found one yet that has or is doing this. See, when it comes directly out of your pocket, you libs do not step up to the plate, so here is your shining moment, well, lets see it , c'mon, open up yer wallet, pay for that $300,000 operation. Well??????? I thought so. Put up or shut up.
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 09:48 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Actually I had to work. I still do 40 hours a week at one job and side jobs when I can get my hands on a deal. A stickler for details my butt. 1 trillion? try 2 in the first 10 years. You'll have to pay doctors! the first trillion is ONLY health insurance. Doctors are starting to refuse medicaid patients on the grounds that the doctors can't survive. Also lets not forget that the war ( while IMO unconstitutional ) was voted on by both parties. Republicans ( not my favorite party, but the lesser of the two evils ) had no hand in this current undermining of liberties. It will be contested by various STATE superme justices based on the fact that it is unconstitutional to force citizens to buy anything. Most of what the media is currently spewing is half truth or all lies. Currently it is ILLEGAL to refuse medical treatment to anyone. This means that even if you do not have insurance you are still going to be treated. So what is this trillion dollars going to change other then what I take home.

I lived overseas for 14 year. My neighbor bled to death in the hall way of a hospital while waiting for a physician to get to the hospital. And while this does not yet include dental I myself had a filling done when I was 14 while over seas. They didn't want to pay for Novocain. Can you imagine taking your kid to get a filling without any local anesthesia? For the record I am 31 now and i remember that like it was yesterday. You've gotta be NUTZ to want that.

It's interesting that the taxes kick in next year but we won't see a benefit from this until 2014. You do know that the government owes the social security fund some number just short of a trillion dollar right? ( 800 billion maybe?) Where are the taxes for the next 3 years going to go? Vaporize? Pay for the cash for clunkers? WTF? Does no one read between the lines? Does no one see the bigger picture?

It's odd that 2014 would be half way through obamas second term IF he gets reelected (lets try and not let that happen) So if his plan goes bust and they figure out it doesn't work and Americans decide it wasn't what they wanted afterall they can pass the buck to the next guy.

Lastly, even though I touched on this earlier, when was the last time something like this came up and got NO votes from the other party? I though Obama was all bi-partisan and stuff? If nothing else this proves that Americans are bitterly divided. This whole health care thing has awakened a sleeping giant in the US. Look at the Tea party movement. Look at the 9-12ers. Look at the laws that conservative states are passing and read how defiant they are towards the federal government. Look at the groups that are advocating that their state secede from the US....

I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever. Thomas Jefferson


Anti grade school comment disclosure: No I'm not going to proof read it I took the time to write it. That should be good enough.
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 09:53 PM   #49 (permalink)
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No matter what figures you throw out there or what sob story you share, the simple fact remains: we cannot afford this.

I did a huge project for school (a graduation requirement at my school) on the various healthcare reform bills. I went through the numbers, arguments from BOTH sides, statistics, and interviewed many people (including small business owners, recipients of govt. insurance, and British citizens).

The talking points may sound like a dream come true for some people, and healthcare reform is desperately needed in America, but what congress has proposed (and passed) WILL NOT address and fix the crucial problems at their root. Medicare needs reform, not budget cuts; pre-existing condition discrimination needs addressing, not mandatory insurance purchase; and pricing needs to be brought under control, but not through draconian and socialistic methods. We need true reform, not a $2.5 trillion healthcare "reform" executive order.

America has $14 trillion in national debt and a $1.4 trillion budget deficit. How in the hell are we going to pay for this? Oh wait, NO ONE KNOWS.
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Old March 22nd, 2010, 09:53 PM   #50 (permalink)
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I suggest you do some research... particularly the time frame of the Great Depression. It wasn't government spending that pulled us out, it was allowing the tax payers to have more money to spend.
I did my research, maybe you need to re-check your sources? WWII, government spending and government programs are what pulled our country out of the depression.
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