Go Back   Android Forums > Android Community > The Lounge > Politics and Current Affairs
Politics and Current Affairs All things political.

Get excited for the Samsung Galaxy S5! Find everything you need and discuss it in our Galaxy S5 Forum!

Like Tree8Likes

test: Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old July 1st, 2012, 01:01 PM   #51 (permalink)
Senior Member
Thread Author (OP)
 
A.Nonymous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,061
 
Device(s): Motorola Razr M, Galaxy Tab 10.1 I/O edition
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 66
Thanked 970 Times in 704 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OutofDate1980 View Post
The analogy to car insurance fails. Your body is not a car.

Hospitals must treat you, regardless of your ability to pay.

The mandate will lower costs to those who have health insurance.
One, by treating people prior cost escalation.
Two, by making those that can afford insurance, but gambled and lost, pay, rather than filing for bankruptcy.
It really doesn't fail. The legally required car insurance covers the other guy, not you. I'm not required to have insurance that covers my car. If I wrap my car around a tree, I'm up a creek. I'm not required to have insurance that covers me. With health insurance, the feds are requiring you to cover yourself.

Show me another example where you are taxed for NOT doing something.

A.Nonymous is offline  
Reply With Quote
sponsored links
Old July 1st, 2012, 03:39 PM   #52 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,568
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 261
Thanked 127 Times in 111 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by saptech View Post
... If you don't have health insurance, the only way you won't need medical attention is if you die before reaching the hospital. ...
Not necessarily, autopsies are often performed to determine cause of death.
OutofDate1980 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 1st, 2012, 04:52 PM   #53 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Bob Maxey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,837
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 381
Thanked 811 Times in 641 Posts
Default

The SC made its ruling and that DOES NOT mean the next President cannot kill it off. My fear is the next El-presidente will not kill the bill. God help us if it is Obama.

Second, read the 2600 page bill and get back to me. There are things hidden in the bill that should scare you. No matter what Congress or Obama says, what is written down is all that matters.

i think there is a provision in the bill that says if your employer makes the slightest change to your coverage, it goes away. Some will be exempt but most will pay lots at the end of the year. Those new RS hires will be very busy and the public will likely learn that when you get what you ask for, it is sometimes not what you think you want.
Bob Maxey is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 1st, 2012, 05:05 PM   #54 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,568
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 261
Thanked 127 Times in 111 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Maxey View Post
... i think there is a provision in the bill that says if your employer makes the slightest change to your coverage, it goes away. ...
i think there is a provision in the bill that says if your employer murders you your coverage goes away and your employer's action is justified homicide in that it was a reduction in force.

Read the 2600 page bill and get back to me.
OutofDate1980 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 1st, 2012, 05:38 PM   #55 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,568
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 261
Thanked 127 Times in 111 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Nonymous View Post
It really doesn't fail. The legally required car insurance covers the other guy, not you. I'm not required to have insurance that covers my car. If I wrap my car around a tree, I'm up a creek. I'm not required to have insurance that covers me. With health insurance, the feds are requiring you to cover yourself.

Show me another example where you are taxed for NOT doing something.
Payment for health insurance covers everybody else that would otherwise have to pay for the uninsured, i.e. harm to those that have health insurance.

I guess it depends on how the question is framed. If you fail to do something within your ability to do and this inaction causes harm to others, can the government impose sanctions ?

Is the government promoting personal responsibility ? Is this a bad thing ?

The government imposes penalties for NOT doing the following:

Failure of 18 year old males to register for the draft.
Failure to maintain your property.
Failure to maintain your vehicle.
Failure to file tax returns.
Failure to care for your children.
Failure to maintain a safe working environment.
Failure to have health insurance. (Effective 2014)

The list is very extensive.
OutofDate1980 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 1st, 2012, 09:11 PM   #56 (permalink)
Senior Member
Thread Author (OP)
 
A.Nonymous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,061
 
Device(s): Motorola Razr M, Galaxy Tab 10.1 I/O edition
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 66
Thanked 970 Times in 704 Posts
Default

Those are crimes under the law. Failure to have health insurance isn't a crime. It's a cause for a tax. Big difference. There's a big difference between punishing someone for something that is a criminal act under the law and taxing someone for not purchasing a product.
A.Nonymous is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 1st, 2012, 09:55 PM   #57 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,568
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 261
Thanked 127 Times in 111 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Nonymous View Post
So you'd be ok with the government FORCING you to buy healthy foods and fining you if you didn't?
Supreme Court saves Romney Care.

Obamacare & The Broccoli Argument - The Colbert Report - 2012-28-06 - Video Clip | Comedy Central
OutofDate1980 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 1st, 2012, 10:02 PM   #58 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,568
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 261
Thanked 127 Times in 111 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Nonymous View Post
Those are crimes under the law. Failure to have health insurance isn't a crime. It's a cause for a tax. Big difference. There's a big difference between punishing someone for something that is a criminal act under the law and taxing someone for not purchasing a product.
So your argument is that not having health insurance should be a crime ?

Throw the freeloaders under the jail ?
OutofDate1980 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 2nd, 2012, 07:10 AM   #59 (permalink)
Senior Member
Thread Author (OP)
 
A.Nonymous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,061
 
Device(s): Motorola Razr M, Galaxy Tab 10.1 I/O edition
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 66
Thanked 970 Times in 704 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OutofDate1980 View Post
So your argument is that not having health insurance should be a crime ?

Throw the freeloaders under the jail ?
No. My argument is the feds shouldn't force you to buy a product. I can't think of any other situations where you are taxed for not buying something.
A.Nonymous is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 2nd, 2012, 10:25 AM   #60 (permalink)
AF Contributor
 
jhtalisman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Nashvegas, Tn
Gender: Male
Posts: 306
 
Device(s): T-MOBILE HTC ONE STOCK, LG G Pad 8.3 Stock Rooted
Carrier: T-Mobile

Thanks: 23
Thanked 87 Times in 61 Posts
Default

So everyone thinks that having the uninsured being a burden without penalty on the insured's health insurance premiums and hospital/doctor's bills is ok? We (the insured) have shouldered the responsibility long enough and frankly I am tired of it. The new law should lower premiums paid by employer/employee and allow the difference to be put towards increasing wages, other benefits, etc. The preventative care mandate alone is reason for it, as most major health issues can be caught early and therefore cost of treatment is drastically reduced. Most people do not go to the doctor until it is too late, and preventative care costs are a major reason why. Diagnostic tests are expensive.

My employer currently pays ~ $15,000 a year for my family's healthcare coverage. If others were forced to take personal responsibility for their healthcare costs and coverage, that amount would go down significantly along with the billed costs.
jhtalisman is offline  
Last edited by jhtalisman; July 2nd, 2012 at 10:31 AM.
Reply With Quote
sponsored links
Old July 2nd, 2012, 12:09 PM   #61 (permalink)
Senior Member
Thread Author (OP)
 
A.Nonymous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,061
 
Device(s): Motorola Razr M, Galaxy Tab 10.1 I/O edition
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 66
Thanked 970 Times in 704 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhtalisman View Post
So everyone thinks that having the uninsured being a burden without penalty on the insured's health insurance premiums and hospital/doctor's bills is ok? We (the insured) have shouldered the responsibility long enough and frankly I am tired of it. The new law should lower premiums paid by employer/employee and allow the difference to be put towards increasing wages, other benefits, etc. The preventative care mandate alone is reason for it, as most major health issues can be caught early and therefore cost of treatment is drastically reduced. Most people do not go to the doctor until it is too late, and preventative care costs are a major reason why. Diagnostic tests are expensive.

My employer currently pays ~ $15,000 a year for my family's healthcare coverage. If others were forced to take personal responsibility for their healthcare costs and coverage, that amount would go down significantly along with the billed costs.
The new law won't lower premiums though. The logic behind this is sheer insanity. It kind of goes like this.

1. There are a bunch of people who are uninsured.
2. They are uninsured because they either choose to not buy insurance or they can't afford it with the majority falling in the second category.
3. The solution is to pass a law requiring that everyone buy insurance and we'll subsidize those who can't afford to.

How does that make sense? Would it not make more sense to address the problem of why it costs so much more to provide healthcare in this country than it does elsewhere? That is the root of the problem. Of course that involves politicians being the pockets of various lobbies so we don't want to talk about that. I had several clients who were healthcare providers. None of them were fans of this bill as they all claimed it would drive their costs up. Who do you think they're going to pass those costs along to?
A.Nonymous is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 2nd, 2012, 06:29 PM   #62 (permalink)
I ain't nobody!
 
saptech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Third Stone from the Sun
Posts: 3,545
 
Device(s): Motorola Moto G, Samsung Stratosphere, Galaxy Tab 2 SE.
Carrier: T-Mobile

Thanks: 572
Thanked 768 Times in 612 Posts
Default

Yes, let's make this about anything BUT health insurance companies practices, which are squeezing the actual health care providers (you know, the ones who actually do the medical work). It's why doctors have less and less time to spend with each patient. And why health insurance costs quadruple over the last few decades. And why, as costs for services rise, insurance companies increasingly make money by denying healthcare coverage instead of providing it.
__________________
Like it is...Yusef Lateef
saptech is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 2nd, 2012, 07:16 PM   #63 (permalink)
Senior Member
Thread Author (OP)
 
A.Nonymous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,061
 
Device(s): Motorola Razr M, Galaxy Tab 10.1 I/O edition
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 66
Thanked 970 Times in 704 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by saptech View Post
Yes, let's make this about anything BUT health insurance companies practices, which are squeezing the actual health care providers (you know, the ones who actually do the medical work). It's why doctors have less and less time to spend with each patient. And why health insurance costs quadruple over the last few decades. And why, as costs for services rise, insurance companies increasingly make money by denying healthcare coverage instead of providing it.
But Congress can't address those problems because those same health insurance companies are lining their pockets.
A.Nonymous is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 3rd, 2012, 04:13 AM   #64 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,568
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 261
Thanked 127 Times in 111 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Nonymous View Post
But Congress can't address those problems because those same health insurance companies are lining their pockets.
OK, now we're talking cost efficiency. My understanding is health cost is about 18% of US GDP, so I believe Obama/Romney care is a small step in cost containment.

Concentrated insurance companies have a vested financial interest. Do we replace them with a single payer system ? Tough battle, as their leaders will finance public officials that will protect pricing power.
OutofDate1980 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 3rd, 2012, 10:12 AM   #65 (permalink)
Senior Member
Thread Author (OP)
 
A.Nonymous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,061
 
Device(s): Motorola Razr M, Galaxy Tab 10.1 I/O edition
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 66
Thanked 970 Times in 704 Posts
Default

I find it extremely hard to believe that the feds getting involved in anything is going to make it more cost efficient.
A.Nonymous is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 3rd, 2012, 05:15 PM   #66 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,568
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 261
Thanked 127 Times in 111 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Nonymous View Post
I find it extremely hard to believe that the feds getting involved in anything is going to make it more cost efficient.
CBO projects net saving of $138 billion over 1st 10-year period and $1.2 trillion over the following 10 year period.
OutofDate1980 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 3rd, 2012, 05:35 PM   #67 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
ylexot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Saint Inigoes, MD
Posts: 2,336
 
Device(s): VZW Galaxy S3, Transformer Prime, Droid X (ret)
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 17
Thanked 403 Times in 324 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OutofDate1980 View Post
CBO projects net saving of $138 billion over 1st 10-year period and $1.2 trillion over the following 10 year period.
Has the CBO ever gotten an estimate right?
ylexot is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 3rd, 2012, 06:36 PM   #68 (permalink)
Senior Member
Thread Author (OP)
 
A.Nonymous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,061
 
Device(s): Motorola Razr M, Galaxy Tab 10.1 I/O edition
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 66
Thanked 970 Times in 704 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OutofDate1980 View Post
CBO projects net saving of $138 billion over 1st 10-year period and $1.2 trillion over the following 10 year period.
I find that extremely difficult to believe given that the business managers that I've spoken to said the opposite. These are people who are in the business of making money by providing healthcare services and they're telling me they are going to make less money under Obamacare.
A.Nonymous is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 3rd, 2012, 06:39 PM   #69 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,568
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 261
Thanked 127 Times in 111 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ylexot View Post
Has the CBO ever gotten an estimate right?
Estimates are predictions, therefor not perfect.

How nonpartisan is the Congressional Budget Office? - Slate Magazine

"A study in the journal Polity examined the accuracy of economic forecasts made by the White House, the Federal Reserve, and the CBO between 1979 and 1997. During that time, the administration's forecasts were the least accurate and the CBO's were the most accurate. (The Fed forecasted inflation as accurately as the CBO but wasn't as good on gross-national-product growth and unemployment.) The study also found partisan bias in the White House forecasts: Republican administrations tend to exaggerate inflation while Democratic ones exaggerate unemployment. Neither of these tendencies shows up in the CBO's projections."
OutofDate1980 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 3rd, 2012, 06:44 PM   #70 (permalink)
Member
 
Darkencypher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 163
 
Device(s): Nexus 4
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 9
Thanked 11 Times in 10 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Nonymous View Post
The new law won't lower premiums though. The logic behind this is sheer insanity. It kind of goes like this.

1. There are a bunch of people who are uninsured.
2. They are uninsured because they either choose to not buy insurance or they can't afford it with the majority falling in the second category.
3. The solution is to pass a law requiring that everyone buy insurance and we'll subsidize those who can't afford to.

How does that make sense? Would it not make more sense to address the problem of why it costs so much more to provide healthcare in this country than it does elsewhere? That is the root of the problem. Of course that involves politicians being the pockets of various lobbies so we don't want to talk about that. I had several clients who were healthcare providers. None of them were fans of this bill as they all claimed it would drive their costs up. Who do you think they're going to pass those costs along to?
$$$$$ that's why it costs so much here. When corporations can buy our reps we get f***ed. Obamacare is a small step in the right direction that hopefully ends with universal healthcare!
Darkencypher is offline  
Reply With Quote
sponsored links
Old July 3rd, 2012, 06:51 PM   #71 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
ylexot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Saint Inigoes, MD
Posts: 2,336
 
Device(s): VZW Galaxy S3, Transformer Prime, Droid X (ret)
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 17
Thanked 403 Times in 324 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OutofDate1980 View Post
Estimates are predictions, therefor not perfect.

How nonpartisan is the Congressional Budget Office? - Slate Magazine

"A study in the journal Polity examined the accuracy of economic forecasts made by the White House, the Federal Reserve, and the CBO between 1979 and 1997. During that time, the administration's forecasts were the least accurate and the CBO's were the most accurate. (The Fed forecasted inflation as accurately as the CBO but wasn't as good on gross-national-product growth and unemployment.) The study also found partisan bias in the White House forecasts: Republican administrations tend to exaggerate inflation while Democratic ones exaggerate unemployment. Neither of these tendencies shows up in the CBO's projections."
They may be the most accurate government estimates, but they are still absolute garbage. I'll put it to you again...have they ever even been close?
ylexot is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 3rd, 2012, 10:02 PM   #72 (permalink)
AF Contributor
 
jhtalisman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Nashvegas, Tn
Gender: Male
Posts: 306
 
Device(s): T-MOBILE HTC ONE STOCK, LG G Pad 8.3 Stock Rooted
Carrier: T-Mobile

Thanks: 23
Thanked 87 Times in 61 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Nonymous View Post
The new law won't lower premiums though. The logic behind this is sheer insanity. It kind of goes like this.

1. There are a bunch of people who are uninsured.
2. They are uninsured because they either choose to not buy insurance or they can't afford it with the majority falling in the second category.
3. The solution is to pass a law requiring that everyone buy insurance and we'll subsidize those who can't afford to.

How does that make sense? Would it not make more sense to address the problem of why it costs so much more to provide healthcare in this country than it does elsewhere? That is the root of the problem. Of course that involves politicians being the pockets of various lobbies so we don't want to talk about that. I had several clients who were healthcare providers. None of them were fans of this bill as they all claimed it would drive their costs up. Who do you think they're going to pass those costs along to?
Insanity? Not quite.

The more insured people there are, the less the cost will have to be divided up onto everyone's medical bills.

The high cost of healthcare is directly related to the uninsured who go to the hospital and do not pay their medical bills. Those "losses" are put into the insured's bills by way of higher charges.

And the same group, doctors, also claim they will be put out of business by this law, when, in fact, they will most likely make more money due to the increased likelihood of receiving payment.

Common sense is not so common.

My wife went to the ER for abdominal pain in May. The billed amount from the hospital was just shy of $10,000. With the in-network discount, the total amount paid by my health insurance was $3400.

In the past 2 years, my family has used $80,000+ of billed services (not counting the surgery I had this past Friday), but after the in-network discount was applied, the paid amount by the insurance company was a hair over $40,000 (not counting the surgery I had this past Friday).

No wonder the uninsured can't pay their bills if they are 2-3x what an insured person's would be, yet they can't see how this benefits them! Ignorance is bliss I suppose.

High costs are also related to undetected conditions that are not found until they have reached an advanced stage, requiring extensive and expensive treatment. How does the Affordable Care Act counteract this? Preventative screenings are at no out of pocket cost to the patient. The reason for these conditions not being detected is simple: diagnostic screenings cost thousands of dollars, which many people simply cannot afford if their out of pocket maximum costs have not been met. An EKG, which detects heart abnormalities, recently cost $4000 billed, $2400 paid, for my 5 month old daughter who was born with a heart murmur. This was her 2nd EKG since leaving the hospital after birth, thankfully this one came with the news that the murmur had closed up and is no longer present.
jhtalisman is offline  
Last edited by jhtalisman; July 3rd, 2012 at 10:22 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old July 4th, 2012, 07:16 AM   #73 (permalink)
Senior Member
Thread Author (OP)
 
A.Nonymous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,061
 
Device(s): Motorola Razr M, Galaxy Tab 10.1 I/O edition
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 66
Thanked 970 Times in 704 Posts
Default

More insured people means less cost just ignores the question of who is going to pay for those insured people.
A.Nonymous is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 4th, 2012, 09:06 AM   #74 (permalink)
AF Contributor
 
jhtalisman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Nashvegas, Tn
Gender: Male
Posts: 306
 
Device(s): T-MOBILE HTC ONE STOCK, LG G Pad 8.3 Stock Rooted
Carrier: T-Mobile

Thanks: 23
Thanked 87 Times in 61 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Nonymous View Post
More insured people means less cost just ignores the question of who is going to pay for those insured people.
The insured and/or taxpayers already do. It's something the GOP will not come out and say, because they are afraid to admit that little will change in that aspect.

As far as premiums go, they have averaged a 14-20% increase year over year regardless. That is why full fledged healthcare reform is needed. This is a stepping stone to get there.
jhtalisman is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 4th, 2012, 01:37 PM   #75 (permalink)
Senior Member
Thread Author (OP)
 
A.Nonymous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,061
 
Device(s): Motorola Razr M, Galaxy Tab 10.1 I/O edition
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 66
Thanked 970 Times in 704 Posts
Default

Logically, creating more demand for a product of limited availability is going to drive prices up, not down.
A.Nonymous is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 4th, 2012, 06:31 PM   #76 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
ElasticNinja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Cork City, IMF, EU
Posts: 4,488
 
Device(s): Galaxy S3 Mini, ZTE Blade
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 811
Thanked 460 Times in 408 Posts
ciaranhurley0@gmail.com
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Nonymous View Post
I find it extremely hard to believe that the feds getting involved in anything is going to make it more cost efficient.
Shockingly enough, your federal government is probably better than a lot of other governments whos people have far far cheaper healthcare due to those governments involvement. Do not be so negative.
Yet as far as I know, this bill does not provide for extensive powers over the industry to reduce costs and cover everyone, unfortunately. My hope is that Obamacare will spur individual states into creating Universal Healthcare systems where the states themselves do their job of ensuring everyone has affordable care and that 20 cents out of every dollar isnt spent on health.
__________________
Sign up for Minus online storage and get 10 GB of Free Space today! Sign up Here!
ElasticNinja is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 4th, 2012, 06:35 PM   #77 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
ElasticNinja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Cork City, IMF, EU
Posts: 4,488
 
Device(s): Galaxy S3 Mini, ZTE Blade
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 811
Thanked 460 Times in 408 Posts
ciaranhurley0@gmail.com
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Nonymous View Post
More insured people means less cost just ignores the question of who is going to pay for those insured people.
I would imagine themselves, their employers, and the government.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Nonymous View Post
Logically, creating more demand for a product of limited availability is going to drive prices up, not down.
Im pretty sure most of these people ended up using these services anyway.
ElasticNinja is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 4th, 2012, 10:21 PM   #78 (permalink)
Senior Member
Thread Author (OP)
 
A.Nonymous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,061
 
Device(s): Motorola Razr M, Galaxy Tab 10.1 I/O edition
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 66
Thanked 970 Times in 704 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElasticNinja View Post
Shockingly enough, your federal government is probably better than a lot of other governments whos people have far far cheaper healthcare due to those governments involvement. Do not be so negative.
Yet as far as I know, this bill does not provide for extensive powers over the industry to reduce costs and cover everyone, unfortunately. My hope is that Obamacare will spur individual states into creating Universal Healthcare systems where the states themselves do their job of ensuring everyone has affordable care and that 20 cents out of every dollar isnt spent on health.
I've yet to come across a single thing the government manages that they actually manage well.
A.Nonymous is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 5th, 2012, 03:31 AM   #79 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
ElasticNinja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Cork City, IMF, EU
Posts: 4,488
 
Device(s): Galaxy S3 Mini, ZTE Blade
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 811
Thanked 460 Times in 408 Posts
ciaranhurley0@gmail.com
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Nonymous View Post
I've yet to come across a single thing the government manages that they actually manage well.
...so the market itself would do better on its own? Mmm that's working out well for your country
ElasticNinja is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 5th, 2012, 09:50 AM   #80 (permalink)
Senior Member
Thread Author (OP)
 
A.Nonymous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,061
 
Device(s): Motorola Razr M, Galaxy Tab 10.1 I/O edition
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 66
Thanked 970 Times in 704 Posts
Default

I'm trying to do the math in my head and it just doesn't add up. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding and if I am, hopefully someone can correct me.

Let's say I'm a doctor. I've got the ability to serve 100 people. I'm only one person. There are limits to what I can do. The community I live in has 125 people, but I only serve 75 of them as 50 of them have no insurance. So I'm happy. I'm helping people. My 75 patients are happy with their service. Then Obamacare comes in. Now everyone is forced to buy insurance and is now insured. I only have the ability to server 100 people and I've got 125 in the community. I've basically got two options at this point. I can either raise my prices to drive off the business that would overwhelm me or I can flat out deny service to 25 people. If I do the former, then that's not going to be all that effective. The insured aren't paying out of pocket much at all so they'll keep coming and the cost is just going to go to the insurance companies who are going to pass it along to the consumers in the form of premiums which are being subsidized by the taxpayers so everyone pays more. So my only option is to deny people service. We have a system that's somewhat taxed already. Add millions more patients and we will have people who are insured, but can't get service anywhere but an ER.

But let's lay this all aside for a moment. Let's say for the sake of argument that if everyone buys insurance, the cost of health insurance will go down and the quality of healthcare will go up. You still have no issue with the government FORCING people to buy a product and fining them if they don't?
A.Nonymous is offline  
Reply With Quote
sponsored links
Old July 5th, 2012, 10:12 AM   #81 (permalink)
Senior Member
Thread Author (OP)
 
A.Nonymous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,061
 
Device(s): Motorola Razr M, Galaxy Tab 10.1 I/O edition
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 66
Thanked 970 Times in 704 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElasticNinja View Post
...so the market itself would do better on its own? Mmm that's working out well for your country
Nobody is saying out system works. Just that this "solution" makes things worse.
A.Nonymous is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 5th, 2012, 03:15 PM   #82 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
ElasticNinja's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Cork City, IMF, EU
Posts: 4,488
 
Device(s): Galaxy S3 Mini, ZTE Blade
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 811
Thanked 460 Times in 408 Posts
ciaranhurley0@gmail.com
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Nonymous View Post
Nobody is saying out system works. Just that this "solution" makes things worse.
Yet you would be opposed to UHC.

And I really would hope with the amount America spends on health that it isnt overstretched. Overstretched comes to mind when I think of European healthcare, inefficient is what comes to mind when I think of American healthcare.
ElasticNinja is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 5th, 2012, 05:10 PM   #83 (permalink)
AF Contributor
 
jhtalisman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Nashvegas, Tn
Gender: Male
Posts: 306
 
Device(s): T-MOBILE HTC ONE STOCK, LG G Pad 8.3 Stock Rooted
Carrier: T-Mobile

Thanks: 23
Thanked 87 Times in 61 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Nonymous View Post
It was ruled constitutional because they ruled that it is a tax. And it's an insane tax at that. Look at something like homeowners insurance. Should I be required by law to have it? If a tornado comes through and wipes out my house (and I live in tornado alley) and I have no insurance is it reasonable for me to expect the government to pay to rebuild my house? Of course not. Should I then be required by law to carry home owner's insurance? Of course not. Yet we're making the same identical argument with health insurance.
I am relatively sure you are required by your mortgage company that you have homeowners insurance. If your mortgage is backed by Fannie or Freddie then that is a government mandate.
jhtalisman is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 5th, 2012, 05:18 PM   #84 (permalink)
AF Contributor
 
jhtalisman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Nashvegas, Tn
Gender: Male
Posts: 306
 
Device(s): T-MOBILE HTC ONE STOCK, LG G Pad 8.3 Stock Rooted
Carrier: T-Mobile

Thanks: 23
Thanked 87 Times in 61 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Nonymous View Post
Nobody is saying out system works. Just that this "solution" makes things worse.

Please explain howso in something other than typical right wing opinion. Use facts, which I haven't seen much of in opposition to the Affordable Care Act.
jhtalisman is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 5th, 2012, 07:35 PM   #85 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,568
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 261
Thanked 127 Times in 111 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Nonymous View Post
No. My argument is the feds shouldn't force you to buy a product. ....
That argument was lost in 1792.

The Founders’ ‘Musket Mandate’ | Consortiumnews

The debate also was influenced by the false assertion that never before in U.S. history had the federal government required Americans to buy a private product. For “originalists” – like Justice Scalia – that was particularly important because he claims to believe that only actions reflective of the Framers’ original vision can be constitutional.

But here was a stubborn historical fact, that Madison, as a member of the Second Congress, and Washington, as the first President, had supported the Militia Acts of 1792, which gave each able-bodied white male of fighting age six months to “provide himself with a good musket or firelock, a sufficient bayonet and belt, two spare flints, and a knapsack, a pouch, with a box therein, to contain not less than twenty four cartridges, suited to the bore of his musket or firelock, each cartridge to contain a proper quantity of powder and ball.”

Yes, I know that the law was passed under Article Two powers of the Executive, which makes the President the Commander in Chief of the military, not Article One’s Commerce Clause, which grants Congress unrestricted power to regulate interstate commerce. But the principle is the same, that the government can order Americans to buy something that Congress deemed necessary for the country’s good."
OutofDate1980 is offline  
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to OutofDate1980 For This Useful Post:
jhtalisman (July 5th, 2012)
Old July 5th, 2012, 09:15 PM   #86 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,568
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 261
Thanked 127 Times in 111 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ylexot View Post
They may be the most accurate government estimates, but they are still absolute garbage. I'll put it to you again...have they ever even been close?
Of course estimates are off, CBO is required to abide by what Congress says it's going to do, not what it actually does. On health care, CBO has a historical bias to overestimate cost and underestimate savings.

The Gatekeeper - Reason.com

"In July Bruce Vladeck, formerly a top staffer at the Health Care Financing Administration, argued in Roll Call that “the CBO has routinely overestimated the costs of expanded government health care benefits and underestimated the savings from program changes designed to reduce expenditures,” pointing specifically to its overestimation of the five-year cost of the Medicare prescription drug benefit."

"But the agency’s inaccuracies must be judged relatively. “They’re the second worst source of forecasts on the effects of health care policy,” says Arnold Kling. “As far as the worst, all the rest are tied. I’m sure that their forecasts are flawed and subject to huge error. But the next question to ask is: Compared to what?” "
OutofDate1980 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 5th, 2012, 09:53 PM   #87 (permalink)
Senior Member
Thread Author (OP)
 
A.Nonymous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,061
 
Device(s): Motorola Razr M, Galaxy Tab 10.1 I/O edition
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 66
Thanked 970 Times in 704 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhtalisman View Post
I am relatively sure you are required by your mortgage company that you have homeowners insurance. If your mortgage is backed by Fannie or Freddie then that is a government mandate.
Completely different. If you've got a Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac mortgage than the government basically owns your home as they back the loan. They've obviously got a stake in protecting their property.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhtalisman View Post
Please explain howso in something other than typical right wing opinion. Use facts, which I haven't seen much of in opposition to the Affordable Care Act.
Not sure. You want me to argue that the current system is broken?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OutofDate1980 View Post
That argument was lost in 1792.

The Founders’ ‘Musket Mandate’ | Consortiumnews

The debate also was influenced by the false assertion that never before in U.S. history had the federal government required Americans to buy a private product. For “originalists” – like Justice Scalia – that was particularly important because he claims to believe that only actions reflective of the Framers’ original vision can be constitutional.

But here was a stubborn historical fact, that Madison, as a member of the Second Congress, and Washington, as the first President, had supported the Militia Acts of 1792, which gave each able-bodied white male of fighting age six months to “provide himself with a good musket or firelock, a sufficient bayonet and belt, two spare flints, and a knapsack, a pouch, with a box therein, to contain not less than twenty four cartridges, suited to the bore of his musket or firelock, each cartridge to contain a proper quantity of powder and ball.”

Yes, I know that the law was passed under Article Two powers of the Executive, which makes the President the Commander in Chief of the military, not Article One’s Commerce Clause, which grants Congress unrestricted power to regulate interstate commerce. But the principle is the same, that the government can order Americans to buy something that Congress deemed necessary for the country’s good."
Actually it wasn't. As you mentioned the militia act was based on the militia clause, not the commerce clause. They are two completely and totally different legal precedents. They're completely independent from each other. Not mention the fact that the Militia Act was never enforced at the federal level.
A.Nonymous is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 5th, 2012, 10:27 PM   #88 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,568
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 261
Thanked 127 Times in 111 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Nonymous View Post
...Actually it wasn't. As you mentioned the militia act was based on the militia clause, not the commerce clause. They are two completely and totally different legal precedents. They're completely independent from each other. Not mention the fact that the Militia Act was never enforced at the federal level.
You argued the Fed can't force you to buy a product. I showed that it's been done in the past. Now you argue that the reasons were different. So what, the result is the same.

George Washington enforced it at the Federal level in 1794 during the Whiskey Rebellion.
OutofDate1980 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 5th, 2012, 10:40 PM   #89 (permalink)
I ain't nobody!
 
saptech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Third Stone from the Sun
Posts: 3,545
 
Device(s): Motorola Moto G, Samsung Stratosphere, Galaxy Tab 2 SE.
Carrier: T-Mobile

Thanks: 572
Thanked 768 Times in 612 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhtalisman View Post
I am relatively sure you are required by your mortgage company that you have homeowners insurance. If your mortgage is backed by Fannie or Freddie then that is a government mandate.
I still claim it's like auto insurance. Yes, you only purchase it if you own a vehical, but once you continue to drive said vehical, you are FORCED to purchase auto insurance.

About the only time I can think of one not needing medical services is when you die on the way to the hospital.
saptech is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 5th, 2012, 11:07 PM   #90 (permalink)
Member
 
atljatl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Atlanta, what
Posts: 377
 
Device(s): -Gnex i9250- rooted running AOSPA 3+ & rubik r10 kernel LG Optimus L9 P769 rooted and stock -OG EVo
Carrier: Solavei (I actually love it!)

Thanks: 194
Thanked 219 Times in 150 Posts
Send a message via Skype™ to atljatl
Default

I'm disappointed that president Obama is imposing this tax. He explicitly stated this bill was not a tax. He lied. That's not befitting of the president nor of politicians. I hope nobody kills him because of this. That would be unfortunate.
atljatl is offline  
Reply With Quote
sponsored links
Old July 5th, 2012, 11:10 PM   #91 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,568
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 261
Thanked 127 Times in 111 Posts
Default

Scalia and gang get's caught in a lie, again.

How Scalia Distorts the Framers | Consortiumnews

In their angry dissent on June 28, the four wrote: “If Congress can reach out and command even those furthest removed from an interstate market to participate in the market, then the Commerce Clause becomes a font of unlimited power, or in Hamilton’s words, ‘the hideous monster whose devouring jaws . . . spare neither sex nor age, nor high nor low, nor sacred nor profane.’” They footnoted Hamilton’s Federalist Paper No. 33.

That sounds pretty authoritative, doesn’t it? Here’s Hamilton, one of the strongest advocates for the Constitution, offering a prescient warning about “Obamacare” from the distant past of 1788.

Except that Scalia and his cohorts are misleading you. In Federalist Paper No. 33, Hamilton was not writing about the Commerce Clause. He was referring to clauses in the Constitution that grant Congress the power to make laws that are “necessary and proper” for executing its powers and that establish federal law as “the supreme law of the land.”

Hamilton also wasn’t condemning those powers, as Scalia and his friends would have you believe. Hamilton was defending the two clauses by poking fun at the Anti-Federalist alarmists who had stirred up opposition to the Constitution with warnings about how it would trample America’s liberties.""
OutofDate1980 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 6th, 2012, 12:08 AM   #92 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,568
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 261
Thanked 127 Times in 111 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Nonymous View Post
The Supreme Court has upheld the individual mandate of Obamacare that requires all individuals to purchase health insurance or face penalties. This is beyond ludicrous. Never before has our government REQUIRED, under penalty of law, that citizens purchase a product.
Roberts Embraces Right’s Fake History | Consortiumnews

In striking down the Commerce Clause as a justification for the Affordable Care Act, Roberts also parroted the Right’s propaganda line that it is not commerce when an American chooses not to buy health insurance.

However, that ignores the fact that virtually every American is involved in the commerce of medicine from birth and reenters that “market” periodically, especially near the end of life.

The failure of some people to obtain health insurance, to essentially choose to self-insure, is still part of the larger commerce of medicine, which operates across state lines and thus is within the congressional power to regulate interstate commerce.

Yet, Roberts joined his right-wing colleagues in saying that the Commerce Clause only allows regulation of “existing commercial activity” and that the insurance mandate “compels individuals to become active in commerce by purchasing a product,” a principle that Roberts said could lead the federal government to require other mandatory purchases.

However, Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, writing for the four more liberal justices, noted the fallacy of Roberts’s argument. “Unlike the market for almost any other product or service,” she wrote, “the market for medical care is one in which all individuals inevitably participate.”"
OutofDate1980 is offline  
Last edited by OutofDate1980; July 6th, 2012 at 12:09 AM. Reason: Format
Reply With Quote
Old July 6th, 2012, 08:39 AM   #93 (permalink)
Senior Member
Thread Author (OP)
 
A.Nonymous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 7,061
 
Device(s): Motorola Razr M, Galaxy Tab 10.1 I/O edition
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 66
Thanked 970 Times in 704 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OutofDate1980 View Post
You argued the Fed can't force you to buy a product. I showed that it's been done in the past. Now you argue that the reasons were different. So what, the result is the same.

George Washington enforced it at the Federal level in 1794 during the Whiskey Rebellion.
Again, it's completely different. A law based on the militia clause has a completely different precedent than a law based on the commerce clause. The reasoning behind them is irrelevant. The differing legal foundations is what matters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saptech View Post
I still claim it's like auto insurance. Yes, you only purchase it if you own a vehical, but once you continue to drive said vehical, you are FORCED to purchase auto insurance.

About the only time I can think of one not needing medical services is when you die on the way to the hospital.
You purchase insurance to cover the other guy. Not you. You tbone my car and are only carrying the legally required amount of insurance, and you are up a creek. I'm covered. Your insurance protects the people that you might injure. No one requires you to protect yourself. It's completely different.
A.Nonymous is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 6th, 2012, 01:05 PM   #94 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,568
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 261
Thanked 127 Times in 111 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Nonymous View Post
Again, it's completely different. A law based on the militia clause has a completely different precedent than a law based on the commerce clause. The reasoning behind them is irrelevant. The differing legal foundations is what matters. ...
We agree, the mandate is constitutional under the Commerce Clause. The majority of SC found it constitutional under the congressional power to tax. The result is the same.

Do not despair, the jihad SC members lies about Federalist Paper No. 33 are blatant and will be reversed once these Koch prostitutes exit the court.
OutofDate1980 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 8th, 2012, 01:16 PM   #95 (permalink)
Member
 
Drhyde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Kokomo, Indiana
Posts: 493
 
Device(s): Galaxy Nexus with Jelly Bean (rooted)
Carrier: T-Mobile USA

Thanks: 59
Thanked 90 Times in 63 Posts
drhyde27@gmail.com
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Nonymous View Post
Again, it's completely different. A law based on the militia clause has a completely different precedent than a law based on the commerce clause. The reasoning behind them is irrelevant. The differing legal foundations is what matters.



You purchase insurance to cover the other guy. Not you. You tbone my car and are only carrying the legally required amount of insurance, and you are up a creek. I'm covered. Your insurance protects the people that you might injure. No one requires you to protect yourself. It's completely different.
Couldn't you say that me being sick with a contagious disease that can be prevented or cured, say Meningitis, but I choose not to, be just the same in the sense that I'm spreading misery and death around? Smashing a car into somebody requires you to have insurance to keep them safe from medical expenses, so logically keeping insurance on yourself would keep you from becoming a biohazard to the rest of the world.
__________________
My blog: http://tkgod.blogspot.com
Drhyde is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 22nd, 2012, 04:40 PM   #96 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Bob Maxey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,837
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 381
Thanked 811 Times in 641 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.Nonymous View Post
The Supreme Court has upheld the individual mandate of Obamacare that requires all individuals to purchase health insurance or face penalties. This is beyond ludicrous. Never before has our government REQUIRED, under penalty of law, that citizens purchase a product.
And, when Obama is gone and we have a new leader, it matters very little. Obamacare will likely go away and be replaced with something more logical.
Bob Maxey is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 22nd, 2012, 04:44 PM   #97 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Bob Maxey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,837
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 381
Thanked 811 Times in 641 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by saptech View Post
I still claim it's like auto insurance. Yes, you only purchase it if you own a vehical, but once you continue to drive said vehical, you are FORCED to purchase auto insurance.

About the only time I can think of one not needing medical services is when you die on the way to the hospital.
Health insurance will be required by law. Everyone must pay for it at an estimated 2,000.00 to 2,500.00 per year and it will be collected by the IRS.

It would be like every person being required to purchase auto insurance even if they do not drive.
Bob Maxey is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 22nd, 2012, 04:49 PM   #98 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Bob Maxey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 4,837
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 381
Thanked 811 Times in 641 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhtalisman View Post
I am relatively sure you are required by your mortgage company that you have homeowners insurance. If your mortgage is backed by Fannie or Freddie then that is a government mandate.
I am not required to purchase any insurance because I presently do not own a home. Health insurance is required by law and everyone must carry it.

It would be like non-home owners being required to carry home insurance.

I do carry insurance to protect my crap. but it is my choice, not the gubbermints.
Bob Maxey is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 22nd, 2012, 05:07 PM   #99 (permalink)
I ain't nobody!
 
saptech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Third Stone from the Sun
Posts: 3,545
 
Device(s): Motorola Moto G, Samsung Stratosphere, Galaxy Tab 2 SE.
Carrier: T-Mobile

Thanks: 572
Thanked 768 Times in 612 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Maxey View Post
Obamacare will likely go away and be replaced with something more logical.
Haven't anything been put in place before now, what makes you think they will after Obama? It seems those in power, or whoever prefer to keep the healthcare the way it always been.

Quote:
It would be like every person being required to purchase auto insurance even if they do not drive.
The argument was about being forced to buy insurance, some say you are not forced when buying auto insurance, and I say you are, by law. Of course if you do not own or drive an auto you don't have to have it but if you do, you are forced to have some type of insurance.

The one thing about health insurance, you will get sick at some point in your life, so maybe that is why the law is set to require everyone to have health insurance.

Of course if you die at the same time you get sick before reaching the hospital, then you won't need health insurance. But you may need burial insurance!
saptech is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old July 22nd, 2012, 07:48 PM   #100 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,568
 
Device(s):
Carrier: Not Provided

Thanks: 261
Thanked 127 Times in 111 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by saptech View Post
... But you may need burial insurance!
Naw, just a good wood chipper.
OutofDate1980 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Reply


Go Back   Android Forums > Android Community > The Lounge > Politics and Current Affairs
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:39 PM.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.