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Old August 10th, 2012, 12:06 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Voting Fraud

The current drive by the some politicians to disenfranchise voters by requiring government mandated voting ID, restricting early voting , absentee voting and registering to vote is a waste of money to solve a problem that doesn't exist. This drive has one goal only, to take away the right of voting by citizens.

If politicians were serious about preventing fraudulent elections then attack the real problem which is voting machines that can be tampered with to disenfranchise a large portion of the citizens to have their vote correctly tallied.

Requiring Open Source code and independent software verification, certification and code signing is an inexpensive method to prevent real, widespread voting fraud.
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Old August 10th, 2012, 12:31 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Florida GOP Takes Voter Suppression to a Brazen New Extreme | Ari Berman | Politics News | Rolling Stone
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Old August 10th, 2012, 04:19 AM   #3 (permalink)
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yes indeed....... its a whole lot to ask that we only allow American citizens to vote in the elections
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Old August 10th, 2012, 04:19 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Well the POS Rick Scott has a history of benefiting from fraud. He must have been schooled in the Koch way of doing business. Rob many banks, get caught on one, pay most of the money back for the one bank job, rinse, repeat.

Makes him a free market hero. Get rid of those voters that may question his ethics.

Gov. Rick Scott's Old Health Care Firm Faces Federal Probe For Unnecessary Heart Surgeries - Miami News - Riptide 2.0

"Scott has sold most of his shares in HCA -- which he founded in 1989 -- since becoming governor, but he was the CEO of the firm when it overbilled Medicare by more than a billion dollars, later incurring a $1.7 billion penalty from the feds for the fraud."
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Old August 10th, 2012, 12:38 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OutofDate1980 View Post
The current drive by the some politicians to disenfranchise voters by requiring government mandated voting ID, restricting early voting , absentee voting and registering to vote is a waste of money to solve a problem that doesn't exist. This drive has one goal only, to take away the right of voting by citizens.

If politicians were serious about preventing fraudulent elections then attack the real problem which is voting machines that can be tampered with to disenfranchise a large portion of the citizens to have their vote correctly tallied.

Requiring Open Source code and independent software verification, certification and code signing is an inexpensive method to prevent real, widespread voting fraud.
Voters should be required to show ID. for God's sake, we need this to prevent fraud. We need to know that people will vote only where they are supposed to vote; we also need to prevent the dead from voting.

I think people who want to vote should have a drivers license or a state ID. If they cannot prove who they are, they simply do not get to vote.
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Old August 10th, 2012, 01:09 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Bob Maxey View Post
Voters should be required to show ID. for God's sake, we need this to prevent fraud. We need to know that people will vote only where they are supposed to vote; we also need to prevent the dead from voting.

I think people who want to vote should have a drivers license or a state ID. If they cannot prove who they are, they simply do not get to vote.
It's a matter of allocating resources.

Debbie Hines: New Republican Data Shows No Need For Voter ID Laws

"In the states with higher convictions of improper voting, most involved voters improperly filling out registration forms, vote buying or a person with a felony conviction attempting to vote. Vote buying occurs when a voter is paid or offered money for their vote. Neither of these issues would be prevented by state photo ID requirement. While the RNLA data shows 17 cases of non-citizen voting convictions over 10 years in Florida and one in both Alaska and Illinois, this hardly justifies the requirement of proof of citizenship requirement."
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Old August 10th, 2012, 01:14 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by OutofDate1980 View Post
It's a matter of allocating resources.

Debbie Hines: New Republican Data Shows No Need For Voter ID Laws

"In the states with higher convictions of improper voting, most involved voters improperly filling out registration forms, vote buying or a person with a felony conviction attempting to vote. Vote buying occurs when a voter is paid or offered money for their vote. Neither of these issues would be prevented by state photo ID requirement. While the RNLA data shows 17 cases of non-citizen voting convictions over 10 years in Florida and one in both Alaska and Illinois, this hardly justifies the requirement of proof of citizenship requirement."

Crawford v. Marion County Election Board (2007)
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Old August 10th, 2012, 01:36 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Maxey View Post
Voters should be required to show ID. for God's sake, we need this to prevent fraud. We need to know that people will vote only where they are supposed to vote; we also need to prevent the dead from voting.

I think people who want to vote should have a drivers license or a state ID. If they cannot prove who they are, they simply do not get to vote.
But all it proves when a voter shows an i.d. is that he or she can get an i.d., not that they're a citizen. There is a market for i.d.s out there.
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Old August 10th, 2012, 02:07 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I'm of two minds about this. My 93 year old grandmother who lives in a state that passed a voter ID law doesn't have a valid driver's license anymore and is not very mobile. Getting an ID will be a burden but so will getting to the voting booth in the first place. Anyhow if this does lead to voter suppression it seems to me it will be wash as to what party it benefits. The old tend to vote Republican and poor minorities tend to vote Democrat. The proof is in the pudding as they say, we'll see the effect on turnout in November.
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Old August 10th, 2012, 03:55 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by cjr72 View Post
I'm of two minds about this. My 93 year old grandmother who lives in a state that passed a voter ID law doesn't have a valid driver's license anymore and is not very mobile. Getting an ID will be a burden but so will getting to the voting booth in the first place. Anyhow if this does lead to voter suppression it seems to me it will be wash as to what party it benefits. The old tend to vote Republican and poor minorities tend to vote Democrat. The proof is in the pudding as they say, we'll see the effect on turnout in November.
You maybe correct with voting preference, but your Grandmother or poor minorities shouldn't be prohibited from voting regardless if it's a wash.

I think why the Republicans are pushing voter suppression is there's evidence it's not a wash
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Old August 10th, 2012, 04:08 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by OutofDate1980 View Post
You maybe correct with voting preference, but your Grandmother or poor minorities shouldn't be prohibited from voting regardless if it's a wash.

I think why the Republicans are pushing voter suppression is there's evidence it's not a wash
Perhaps those "poor minorities" should get some legal and proper ID? If not, they should forget about voting until they can prove they have a right to vote.

Sorry, but without the proper ID, nobody should be allowed to vote.
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Old August 10th, 2012, 04:09 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Bob Maxey View Post
Crawford v. Marion County Election Board (2007)
The Court recognized that voter fraud had not occurred in Indiana, so the voter photo ID statute is “fixing” a non-existent problem.

Your point ?
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Old August 10th, 2012, 04:14 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Bob Maxey View Post
Perhaps those "poor minorities" should get some legal and proper ID? If not, they should forget about voting until they can prove they have a right to vote.

Sorry, but without the proper ID, nobody should be allowed to vote.
If you are a registered voter, you are asked to verify your address prior to voting.

We are spending resources on a nonexistent problem, but ignoring a vastly larger danger of voting machine tampering.
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Old August 10th, 2012, 04:22 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OutofDate1980 View Post
You maybe correct with voting preference, but your Grandmother or poor minorities shouldn't be prohibited from voting regardless if it's a wash.

I think why the Republicans are pushing voter suppression is there's evidence it's not a wash
My Grandmother isn't prohibited. If she really wants to get an ID she can though it is more difficult for her due to her age, but that's life.

Anyhow I'm curious if anyone following this thread in other countries have to present a photo ID to vote and if so what do they think of it?
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Old August 10th, 2012, 04:31 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by cjr72 View Post
My Grandmother isn't prohibited. If she really wants to get an ID she can though it is more difficult for her due to her age, but that's life.

Anyhow I'm curious if anyone following this thread in other countries have to present a photo ID to vote and if so what do they think of it?
From http://citizensvoice.com/news/voter-id-law-a-fix-in-search-of-a-problem-1.1343383

'The law is politically motivated. Voter suppression (i.e., discouraging certain groups from voting) is apparently the law's real motivation. Republicans have frantically denied this, but their own House majority leader publicly acknowledged it last month. Showing perhaps more candor than canniness, Rep. Mike Turzai implied the law had the partisan goal of winning the presidential election for Mitt Romney. "Voter ID," proclaimed Turzai, "is going to allow Gov. Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania." Smoking guns don't get clearer than that.'

Sounds pretty damning to me.

The moment when just one single legal citizen is denied the right to vote in this country due to a failure in the system then that's when democracy dies.
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Old August 10th, 2012, 05:12 PM   #16 (permalink)
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... Rep. Mike Turzai implied the law had the partisan goal of winning the presidential election for Mitt Romney.
Implied ?

Turzai: Voter ID Will Allow Romney to Win Pa. - YouTube
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Old August 10th, 2012, 08:50 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I voted for Nucky Thompson. He promised to rename The White House, Tammany Hall f I gave enough cash under the table next time.
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Old August 11th, 2012, 04:01 AM   #18 (permalink)
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I voted for Nucky Thompson. He promised to rename The White House, Tammany Hall f I gave enough cash under the table next time.
Isn't America's laissez faire politicians great, the best money can buy or sometimes only rent.
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Old August 11th, 2012, 01:03 PM   #19 (permalink)
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So if I decide to vote in your state, what mechanism should be in place to prevent my vote? This is simple, really. We know fraud occurs. We might not see it in our state or your state, but if it occurs elsewhere, it can happen anywhere.

What about voter registration? Not sure how it works in every state, Should I be required to register; if so, do I just walk in, sign the papers or the book using a fake address?

If not, then some form of ID should be required.
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Old August 11th, 2012, 02:50 PM   #20 (permalink)
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... We know fraud occurs. ...
Any stats on that ? Is it more of a threat than voting machine fraud ?

Which should we expend limited resources to resolve ?
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Old August 11th, 2012, 02:58 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by OutofDate1980 View Post
Any stats on that ? Is it more of a threat than voting machine fraud ?

Which should we expend limited resources to resolve ?
There is no such thing as collateral damage when it comes to denying citizens the vote. Granted we need to do everything we can to block voter fraud, but nothing that will block anyone from their legal right to vote.
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Old August 11th, 2012, 04:39 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Any stats on that ? Is it more of a threat than voting machine fraud ?

Which should we expend limited resources to resolve ?
What is the difference? Rigging machines to tilt the balance gives us the same result as outright fraud; it is the other side of the same coin. Fraud is fraud.

In Philadelphia, you will find examples of people voting twice, voters that do not exist casting ballots and the ever popular voting by non-citizens.

Thirty or more people in Virginia were charged with voter fraud and there have been convictions.

More than 15 other states have discovered voter fraud.

"At least 33,000 ACORN-submitted registrations in Milwaukee have been called into question after it was found that the organizations had been using felons as registration workers, in violation of state election rules. Two people involved in the ongoing Wisconsin voter fraud investigation have been charged with felonies."

"An ACORN employee in West Reading, PA, was sentenced to up to 23 months in prison for identity theft and tampering with records. A second ACORN worker pleaded not guilty to the same charges and is free on $10,000 bail."

"Nevada authorities indicted ACORN on 26 counts of voter registration fraud and 13 counts of illegally compensating canvassers. ACORN provided a bonus compensation program called “Blackjack” or “21+” for any canvasser who registered more than 20 voters per shift, which is illegal under Nevada law."

Visit: Fraud Map :: Rotten Acorn ::

And I am not suggesting this is new. Voter fraud is old hat.
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Old August 11th, 2012, 04:42 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Bob Maxey View Post
What is the difference? Rigging machines to tilt the balance gives us the same result as outright fraud; it is the other side of the same coin. Fraud is fraud.

In Philadelphia, you will find examples of people voting twice, voters that do not exist casting ballots and the ever popular voting by non-citizens.

Thirty or more people in Virginia were charged with voter fraud and there have been convictions.

More than 15 other states have discovered voter fraud.

"At least 33,000 ACORN-submitted registrations in Milwaukee have been called into question after it was found that the organizations had been using felons as registration workers, in violation of state election rules. Two people involved in the ongoing Wisconsin voter fraud investigation have been charged with felonies."

"An ACORN employee in West Reading, PA, was sentenced to up to 23 months in prison for identity theft and tampering with records. A second ACORN worker pleaded not guilty to the same charges and is free on $10,000 bail."

"Nevada authorities indicted ACORN on 26 counts of voter registration fraud and 13 counts of illegally compensating canvassers. ACORN provided a bonus compensation program called “Blackjack” or “21+” for any canvasser who registered more than 20 voters per shift, which is illegal under Nevada law."

Visit: Fraud Map :: Rotten Acorn ::

And I am not suggesting this is new. Voter fraud is old hat.
What you are saying though is that in order to ensure we lock up the criminals we should arrest all the citizens. My old school teachers like to employ that logic as well. Punish them all to get the one.
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Old August 11th, 2012, 04:54 PM   #24 (permalink)
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What you are saying though is that in order to ensure we lock up the criminals we should arrest all the citizens. My old school teachers like to employ that logic as well. Punish them all to get the one.
What I am saying is there is voter fraud. Apparently, much of it has to do with Acorn. So we start by beating out confessions, getting employees to hang it on Acorn and then use the RICO Act to put them away for life.

Seriously, how can you say that I think we need to "arrest all the citizens?" Not all of them, just those that break the law.

I am saying we need to put those responsible in prison for a long time. Clean up the mess and institute mandatory voter ID laws.

Clearly, the honor system does not work.
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Old August 11th, 2012, 05:05 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
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What I am saying is there is voter fraud. Apparently, much of it has to do with Acorn. So we start by beating out confessions, getting employees to hang it on Acorn and then use the RICO Act to put them away for life.

Seriously, how can you say that I think we need to "arrest all the citizens?" Not all of them, just those that break the law.

I am saying we need to put those responsible in prison for a long time. Clean up the mess and institute mandatory voter ID laws.

Clearly, the honor system does not work.
The logic is to put blocks in place that then prevent legal citizens from voting. Whatever is put in place has to make sure it doesn't catch (in computer parlance) false positives. Much that has been suggested will cause that to happen.
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Old August 11th, 2012, 05:57 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Finally, Voter Fraud Uncovered! - YouTube

"The former head of the Florida Republican Party blows the whistle on how Florida's GOP are changing the law regarding early voting rights not because of voter fraud, but because the majority of early voters are Democrat and/or black and they all went for Obama in 2008. Republicans run the state of Florida, and they are doing everything possible, even removing their citizen's legal rights to vote."
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Old August 11th, 2012, 06:02 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Finally, Voter Fraud Uncovered! - YouTube

"The former head of the Florida Republican Party blows the whistle on how Florida's GOP are changing the law regarding early voting rights not because of voter fraud, but because the majority of early voters are Democrat and/or black and they all went for Obama in 2008. Republicans run the state of Florida, and they are doing everything possible, even removing their citizen's legal rights to vote."
I always consider the source. I mean, it is Al Sharpton, for golly sakes. You seriously think the Republicans are out to get the democrats and minorities? Get real.
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Old August 11th, 2012, 06:29 PM   #28 (permalink)
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you also have to consider the source of the claim..... Jim Greer is about to go to prison because he got caught stealing from the people hes is now making these accusations against.... I can see why the left finds him credible...... hes using their tactics
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Old August 11th, 2012, 06:35 PM   #29 (permalink)
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I always consider the source. I mean, it is Al Sharpton, for golly sakes. You seriously think the Republicans are out to get the democrats and minorities? Get real.
And what sources do you consider "nonbiased"?

Hint: Rush Limbaugh is not a correct answer.
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Old August 11th, 2012, 10:02 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Bob Maxey View Post
What is the difference? Rigging machines to tilt the balance gives us the same result as outright fraud; it is the other side of the same coin. Fraud is fraud.

In Philadelphia, you will find examples of people voting twice, voters that do not exist casting ballots and the ever popular voting by non-citizens.

Thirty or more people in Virginia were charged with voter fraud and there have been convictions.

More than 15 other states have discovered voter fraud.

"At least 33,000 ACORN-submitted registrations in Milwaukee have been called into question after it was found that the organizations had been using felons as registration workers, in violation of state election rules. Two people involved in the ongoing Wisconsin voter fraud investigation have been charged with felonies."

"An ACORN employee in West Reading, PA, was sentenced to up to 23 months in prison for identity theft and tampering with records. A second ACORN worker pleaded not guilty to the same charges and is free on $10,000 bail."

"Nevada authorities indicted ACORN on 26 counts of voter registration fraud and 13 counts of illegally compensating canvassers. ACORN provided a bonus compensation program called “Blackjack” or “21+” for any canvasser who registered more than 20 voters per shift, which is illegal under Nevada law."

Visit: Fraud Map :: Rotten Acorn ::

And I am not suggesting this is new. Voter fraud is old hat.
Your source is bogus. It's a paid front group for a lobbyist.

Rick Berman - SourceWatch
"Richard B. (Rick) Berman is a former labor management attorney and restaurant industry executive who currently works as a lobbyist for the food, alcoholic beverage and tobacco industries. He is the sole owner of Berman & Co., which sponsors many non-profit front groups that defend his corporate clients' interests by attacking their critics, allowing his paying clients to remain out of public view.

He is the President, Executive Director and Director of the Center for Consumer Freedom (CCF). CCF's 2005 IRS return states that Berman works 23 hours a week for the group for which he is paid $18,000. [1] In spite of its name, CCF is more concerned about industry than the consumer. He is also the Executive Director and President of the Employment Policies Institute Foundation the American Beverage Institute and the Center for Union Facts. [2]

According to a July 31, 2006, profile of Berman in USA Today, his company has 28 employees and takes in $10 million dollars a year, but "only Berman and his bookkeeper wife" know how much of the $10 million ends up in their own pockets. [2]

Rick Berman has earned the nicknames "Dr. Evil," the "Conservatives' Weapon of Mass Destruction" and the "Astroturf Kingpin" for his repeated use of the strategy of forming non-profit front groups that advocate for the interests big business while shielding those same businesses from disclosing financial support for these efforts.[3][4]

"In an October 29, 2008 article, the investigative journalism group ProPublica revealed that the ad and the Web site "RottenACORN.com" are funded by Rick Berman's Employment Policies Institute, which has among its clients, the American Beverage Institute, a trade group for bars and restaurants.[14]"

FactCheck.org : ACORN Accusations
"Neither ACORN nor its employees have been found guilty of, or even charged with, casting fraudulent votes. What a McCain-Palin Web ad calls "voter fraud" is actually voter registration fraud. Several ACORN canvassers have been found guilty of faking registration forms and others are being investigated. But the evidence that has surfaced so far shows they faked forms to get paid for work they didn’t do, not to stuff ballot boxes."

"ACORN also says it cannot simply discard suspicious forms on its own, but is required by law in most states to submit to local election officials all the forms its canvassers bring in. ACORN’s Whelan told us that its own legal counsel strongly advises that the group do the same in states that don’t explicitly require it, because "only election officials are legally able to determine the validity of a voter registration application." But ACORN says that it first flags all suspicious registrations. Staffers call the phone numbers written on completed registration forms to make sure they’re valid and also take note of incomplete or duplicate forms. The group says that it alerts election officials to forms that look fishy when it sends them in."
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Old August 11th, 2012, 10:41 PM   #31 (permalink)
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I always consider the source. I mean, it is Al Sharpton, for golly sakes. You seriously think the Republicans are out to get the democrats and minorities? Get real.
Because the Republicans are being caught on video telling us that is what they are doing.
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Old August 11th, 2012, 10:44 PM   #32 (permalink)
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And what sources do you consider "nonbiased"?

Hint: Rush Limbaugh is not a correct answer.
Why not, he is an employee of Bain and up till around 2002 Romney. A complete bias blowhard.
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Old August 14th, 2012, 08:00 PM   #33 (permalink)
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It's unfortunate that the red herring of voter fraud has been sold as a problem, when the real problems are casting, counting, and auditing the vote.

Counting Votes 2012: A State by State Look at Election Preparedness | CountingVotes.org

We strongly encourage all fifty states to adopt all of the best practices detailed in this report. Our elections are the essence of our democratic system of government, and we cannot risk irregularities that shake the confidence of the American public. Some of these recommendations cannot be implemented in time for this November’s elections without, essentially, emergency executive authorization, and significant commitment and resources.
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Old August 14th, 2012, 09:03 PM   #34 (permalink)
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ROFL......... their map image of good/inadequate states ranks 6 as "good" ..... while just a cursory 20 second glance at their detailed breakdown shows at least 2 of their 'best' states as receiving "inadequate" scores in at least 1 category

they dont even agree with their own findings......... DUUURRRP
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Old August 15th, 2012, 12:34 PM   #35 (permalink)
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A judge in Pennsylvania upholds their voter ID law. It's going to be appealed to the state supreme court.
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Old August 15th, 2012, 01:46 PM   #36 (permalink)
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The dems benefit from voter fraud and voter ID would help stem the tide. There is no doubt of that. The dems do not want educated voters, period. If the voter was educated, Obama would never be president.

We need ID and we need laws that punish those that violate the law. Those people that mention granny and her lack of a drivers lisence, she can get a state ID card. There are people that will help granny get to the polls if she does not drive.

There is simply no excuse for not voting and most certainly, a voter ID law does not hamper the process. If you really care about voting, you will find a way.
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Old August 15th, 2012, 04:15 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Your source is bogus. It's a paid front group for a lobbyist.

Rick Berman - SourceWatch
"Richard B. (Rick) Berman is a former labor management attorney and restaurant industry executive who currently works as a lobbyist for the food, alcoholic beverage and tobacco industries. He is the sole owner of Berman & Co., which sponsors many non-profit front groups that defend his corporate clients' interests by attacking their critics, allowing his paying clients to remain out of public view.

He is the President, Executive Director and Director of the Center for Consumer Freedom (CCF). CCF's 2005 IRS return states that Berman works 23 hours a week for the group for which he is paid $18,000. [1] In spite of its name, CCF is more concerned about industry than the consumer. He is also the Executive Director and President of the Employment Policies Institute Foundation the American Beverage Institute and the Center for Union Facts. [2]

According to a July 31, 2006, profile of Berman in USA Today, his company has 28 employees and takes in $10 million dollars a year, but "only Berman and his bookkeeper wife" know how much of the $10 million ends up in their own pockets. [2]

Rick Berman has earned the nicknames "Dr. Evil," the "Conservatives' Weapon of Mass Destruction" and the "Astroturf Kingpin" for his repeated use of the strategy of forming non-profit front groups that advocate for the interests big business while shielding those same businesses from disclosing financial support for these efforts.[3][4]

"In an October 29, 2008 article, the investigative journalism group ProPublica revealed that the ad and the Web site "RottenACORN.com" are funded by Rick Berman's Employment Policies Institute, which has among its clients, the American Beverage Institute, a trade group for bars and restaurants.[14]"

FactCheck.org : ACORN Accusations
"Neither ACORN nor its employees have been found guilty of, or even charged with, casting fraudulent votes. What a McCain-Palin Web ad calls "voter fraud" is actually voter registration fraud. Several ACORN canvassers have been found guilty of faking registration forms and others are being investigated. But the evidence that has surfaced so far shows they faked forms to get paid for work they didn’t do, not to stuff ballot boxes."

"ACORN also says it cannot simply discard suspicious forms on its own, but is required by law in most states to submit to local election officials all the forms its canvassers bring in. ACORN’s Whelan told us that its own legal counsel strongly advises that the group do the same in states that don’t explicitly require it, because "only election officials are legally able to determine the validity of a voter registration application." But ACORN says that it first flags all suspicious registrations. Staffers call the phone numbers written on completed registration forms to make sure they’re valid and also take note of incomplete or duplicate forms. The group says that it alerts election officials to forms that look fishy when it sends them in."
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The dems benefit from voter fraud and voter ID would help stem the tide. ...
How the dems benefit from something that is nonexistent ? Unless you are relying on a discredited source ? No, the reps are just trying to suppress the voting by citizens that are opposed to them, as previously proved.
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Old August 15th, 2012, 06:40 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Yes, the fact that people will actually have to reach into their pocket/purse to get out their ID is totally going to discourage people from voting.

While we're at it, why don't we get rid of drivers liscenes and ID's altogether. I mean, it only discriminates against the young and has to put a damper on interstate commerce right?
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Old August 15th, 2012, 06:50 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Yes, the fact that people will actually have to reach into their pocket/purse to get out their ID is totally going to discourage people from voting.

While we're at it, why don't we get rid of drivers liscenes and ID's altogether. I mean, it only discriminates against the young and has to put a damper on interstate commerce right?
Or why not allocate resources to a known versus nonexistent problem.

Voting Fraud
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Old August 15th, 2012, 07:14 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Or why not allocate resources to a known versus nonexistent problem.

Voting Fraud
Yes, because we only have a handful of resources to go around. We can't actually go around making jobs by hiring people to swipe ID's to check whether or not that person is in the local system.

I mean, why on Earth would we make voting just as hard as checking out library books?
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Old August 15th, 2012, 08:58 PM   #41 (permalink)
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As long as official IDs are given free to everyone who wants one and can prove their identification I have no issues with voter id laws.
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Old August 15th, 2012, 09:01 PM   #42 (permalink)
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If the voter was educated, Obama would never be president.
And I guess edcuated voters put GW in office, Twice? Well, he was given the office his first term by the US Supreme Court. I know, you have a reason for that!
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Old August 15th, 2012, 09:02 PM   #43 (permalink)
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As long as official IDs are given free to everyone who wants one and can prove their identification I have no issues with voter id laws.
Agreed!
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Old August 16th, 2012, 03:32 AM   #44 (permalink)
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As long as official IDs are given free to everyone who wants one and can prove their identification I have no issues with voter id laws.
But therein lies the problem, official ID's are not free. Even just an ID card, not a drivers license, costs $10 in most states. Requiring someone to have one is the equivilant of a poll tax, i.e., requiring someone to spend money to vote, which is against the Constitution. Voting was intended to be of no direct cost to the voter, this is inherently opposite of that intent.
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Old August 16th, 2012, 05:17 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Apoplectic1 View Post
Yes, because we only have a handful of resources to go around. We can't actually go around making jobs by hiring people to swipe ID's to check whether or not that person is in the local system.

I mean, why on Earth would we make voting just as hard as checking out library books?
Voting is vastly more important that checking our library books. We are electing the man or woman to will lead the free world. He or she, in fact, will be the most powerful person on earth.

the last thing we want is a fraud in power, placed there by a fraudulent system.

We need to make sure every vote is legitimate.
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Old August 16th, 2012, 06:02 AM   #46 (permalink)
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But therein lies the problem, official ID's are not free. Even just an ID card, not a drivers license, costs $10 in most states. Requiring someone to have one is the equivilant of a poll tax, i.e., requiring someone to spend money to vote, which is against the Constitution. Voting was intended to be of no direct cost to the voter, this is inherently opposite of that intent.
Thats just it, this still has no direct cost to the voter. They do not have to pay the polling attendants themselves, nor is the ID only good for voting. You need one to fill out any sort of official document.

One must most likely have to pay to vote anyway. Short of walking to a polling location, you have to pay for the gas to get there, bus fare if theres a route, cab fare, the cost to feed and shoe your horse etc.

I agree it would be better if ID's were free. Unfortunately the DOT needs to make money somehow.
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Old August 16th, 2012, 06:13 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jhtalisman View Post
But therein lies the problem, official ID's are not free. Even just an ID card, not a drivers license, costs $10 in most states. Requiring someone to have one is the equivilant of a poll tax, i.e., requiring someone to spend money to vote, which is against the Constitution. Voting was intended to be of no direct cost to the voter, this is inherently opposite of that intent.
A fair enough criticism. Waive the $10 fee for anyone who wants an ID. Maybe institute a charge if it's a replacement so the system isn't tied up by fools who constantly lose their ID. Heck, put the replacement charge on the 3rd replacement to give leeway for people who may simply be mugged and lose their wallets. Aside from that, make it free to everyone else.
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Old August 16th, 2012, 10:24 AM   #48 (permalink)
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A fair enough criticism. Waive the $10 fee for anyone who wants an ID. Maybe institute a charge if it's a replacement so the system isn't tied up by fools who constantly lose their ID. Heck, put the replacement charge on the 3rd replacement to give leeway for people who may simply be mugged and lose their wallets. Aside from that, make it free to everyone else.
I just checked in on Pennsylvania's requirements to get a voter ID:

Quote:
$13.50 fee for acquiring an Identification Card will be waived for individuals completing the Oath/ Affirmation Voter ID form.
You need to bring documents which themselves may cost money to obtain like a birth certificate, etc.
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Old August 16th, 2012, 11:05 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jhtalisman View Post
But therein lies the problem, official ID's are not free. Even just an ID card, not a drivers license, costs $10 in most states. Requiring someone to have one is the equivilant of a poll tax, i.e., requiring someone to spend money to vote, which is against the Constitution. Voting was intended to be of no direct cost to the voter, this is inherently opposite of that intent.
Here in Utah, you are required to carry ID. Not sure about your state. You need ID (in many cases) to get a decent job. You need an SSN as well. If you do not have an SSN and you go to apply for a card, it is almost impossible without some form of ID.

The cost to get an ID is not a poll tax so please do not call it that.

As far as I know, you do not need ID or an SSN to get food stamps, go figure. Any free service for the poor and/or lazy setup by our president is not because he really cares; it is all about the votes.

Voting is vital and it is important. So many of us do not vote but we sure complain about the other guy, who ever that might be.

I am of the opinion that those screaming the loudest likely do not study the candidates much past reading about how bad the other guy is in the liberal press. They do not really care about the process much.
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Old August 16th, 2012, 12:46 PM   #50 (permalink)
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You need to bring documents which themselves may cost money to obtain like a birth certificate, etc.
A fair enough criticism as well. It looks like the requirements list a Social Security Card (free) and a birth certificate (in my state they are free if you walk into the office in the capital, otherwise you pay $15 or so) and proof of residence (bills sent to your house, etc... so free). I'm too lazy to look up what it takes to get a birth certificate in PA. If there's a charge to that, then I agree with you.
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