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Old September 1st, 2012, 03:26 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Has absolutely nothing at all to do with money and power. Most churches have neither. Heck, half of southern Baptist ministers are bi-vocational. I don't think that stat changes much across the rest of the denominations. Having worked with quite a few churches in my city I can tell you that most of them are not drowning in money or drunk with political power. They oppose evolution simply because it conflicts with their view of the universe. Nothing more sinister than that.
It's all about money and power. Just because the local parish is broke, doesn't mean those higher in the hierarchy are broke. The hierarchy of religion is always threatened by knowledge. There's a long history of this fact.

Kentucky Evolution Fight: GOP Lawmakers Upset State Exams Test Students On 'Made Up' Theory

A group of Kentucky Republicans is up in arms over a state testing program that requires high school students preparing for college to have an understanding of biological evolution.

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Old September 1st, 2012, 05:36 AM   #52 (permalink)
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KY is also the state that is building the Ark.

Ark Encounter: Help Build the Ark!
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Old September 1st, 2012, 05:38 AM   #53 (permalink)
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And they have already figured out what Noah and his crew did with all the poop.

Another Meaning to Poop Deck | Arkencounter
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Old September 1st, 2012, 05:57 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Ken Ham is hitting back. Look out Bill.

Creationists hit back at Bill Nye with their own video – CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs
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Old September 1st, 2012, 07:29 AM   #55 (permalink)
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Hard to believe there are still people in this day and age who don't believe in evolution. Sad. There seems to be a hostility to science in certain segments of society, whether it be evolution or climate change, etc, etc.
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Old September 1st, 2012, 07:44 AM   #56 (permalink)
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It's all about money and power. Just because the local parish is broke, doesn't mean those higher in the hierarchy are broke. The hierarchy of religion is always threatened by knowledge. There's a long history of this fact.
The church no longer pulls the strings of governments as it did just a few hundred years ago. I'm sorry, but churches today are neither rich nor politically powerful. Sure you've got some Muslim countries that are run entirely by a church, but they are a minority these days.
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Old September 1st, 2012, 10:02 AM   #57 (permalink)
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Churches are a cash machine and to say different is ignorant or lying.

The colloection plate gets passed every Sunday and in many churches is accompanied by spirit raising reasons and guilt trips to get you to tip out the wallet.

The Crystal freaking Cathedral? Long gone but not forgotten are the air conditioned of the PTL. You look around at all of these church centered not for proffits spending $millions of $$$ a year on politics and furthering the agenda. Where do you think all that damn money is coming from. The gold plated tin plates infront of every pulpit.
If churches are struggling witheir bills or short on money to do local charities they should stay out of politics and stop paying for missionaries to spread their theology to people who want a sandwich not a god.
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Old September 1st, 2012, 10:05 AM   #58 (permalink)
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*...Air conditioned Dog Houses...
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Old September 1st, 2012, 01:16 PM   #59 (permalink)
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The church no longer pulls the strings of governments as it did just a few hundred years ago. I'm sorry, but churches today are neither rich nor politically powerful. Sure you've got some Muslim countries that are run entirely by a church, but they are a minority these days.
The only country run by a religious group is the Islamic Republic or Iran. To be fair they have contraception and some element of democracy, and a strong scientific sector.

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Hard to believe there are still people in this day and age who don't believe in evolution. Sad. There seems to be a hostility to science in certain segments of society, whether it be evolution or climate change, etc, etc.
There are parts of Europe where 20+% still believe in Creationism. Only 22% only believe in evolution in Turkey in fact, number is not too much higher in Russia. Still though, the US shouldnt be benchmarking itself of Russia...
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Old September 1st, 2012, 02:58 PM   #60 (permalink)
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... I'm sorry, but churches today are neither rich nor politically powerful. ...
Not only sorry, but untrue. Would you like me to start a new thread, Wealth of religious organizations ? If so, President Ryan
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Old September 1st, 2012, 03:00 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Look, the current distribution of wealth in the US is inherently unfair. Only government can fix it.
So what? Life isn't fair.
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Old September 1st, 2012, 03:54 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Not only sorry, but untrue. Would you like me to start a new thread, Wealth of religious organizations ? If so, President Ryan
Think that's a great idea please post pictures of the solid gold fixtures
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Old September 1st, 2012, 03:55 PM   #63 (permalink)
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...in the Vatican
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Old September 1st, 2012, 04:30 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Churches are a cash machine and to say different is ignorant or lying.

The colloection plate gets passed every Sunday and in many churches is accompanied by spirit raising reasons and guilt trips to get you to tip out the wallet.

The Crystal freaking Cathedral? Long gone but not forgotten are the air conditioned of the PTL. You look around at all of these church centered not for proffits spending $millions of $$$ a year on politics and furthering the agenda. Where do you think all that damn money is coming from. The gold plated tin plates infront of every pulpit.
If churches are struggling witheir bills or short on money to do local charities they should stay out of politics and stop paying for missionaries to spread their theology to people who want a sandwich not a god.
I'm sorry, but the facts just don't back that up. Yes, there are some churches that are rolling in dough. No question there. These churches are the exception though and not the rule. Pointing to a handful of churches and claiming they are the norm is like pointing out Larry Ellison, Sergei Brin and Bill Gates and claiming that everyone that works in IT is filthy rich. Those guys certainly are but for every one of them there are many, many, many schmucks hammering out code, doing customer support and just plugging wires in for people who aren't making much at all.

So yeah, there are churches that are ridiculously rich. But the one down the street from where you live likely isn't one of them. The fact that there are so many bi-vocational ministers speaks for itself. Most churches are not getting rich.
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Old September 1st, 2012, 05:49 PM   #65 (permalink)
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So what? Life isn't fair.
Yep, that's why Mississippi, Wyoming, and Minnesota are on want-to-be US CEO Romney's downsizing list, they ain't adding to the bottom line.

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Old September 1st, 2012, 05:54 PM   #66 (permalink)
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... But the one down the street from where you live likely isn't one of them. The fact that there are so many bi-vocational ministers speaks for itself. Most churches are not getting rich.
Yes, the local branches are for "Deposit Only".
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Old September 1st, 2012, 06:25 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Yes, the local branches are for "Deposit Only".
Honestly, I'm not sure how much or in what way local churches contribute to the central organization. I know most local churches run on very tight budgets and can't afford to pay their pastors very well at all. Southern Baptists are one of the largest denominations in the US and half of their ministers are bi-vocational.
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Old September 1st, 2012, 06:45 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Honestly, I'm not sure how much or in what way local churches contribute to the central organization. I know most local churches run on very tight budgets and can't afford to pay their pastors very well at all. Southern Baptists are one of the largest denominations in the US and half of their ministers are bi-vocational.
You or anybody else can't be sure, because religious organizations are not required to file a Form 990, all other tax exempt groups are required to. Local churches can act as a feeder fund to support Unrelated Business Income. Bain Capital mastered this trick via off-shore tax exempt accounts.
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Old September 1st, 2012, 07:50 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Honestly, I'm not sure how much or in what way local churches contribute to the central organization. I know most local churches run on very tight budgets and can't afford to pay their pastors very well at all. Southern Baptists are one of the largest denominations in the US and half of their ministers are bi-vocational.
Honestly now, you are about my age so Im sure you took some form of economics in high school. The biggest reason for what you are saying are due to poor salesmanship or location.

My parents go to a Missionary Baptist church up North (yes Southern Baptists send missionaries to the North)
Less than a hundred people on Easter and they manage to cover expenses on the church and parsonage. Pay the Pastor support 3 missionary families in the field. The Church stays in a constant state of upgrade. My Step Dad is the building manager and has hired me a few times to do finish carpentry for them. I just made $800 last spring for building a cedar arbor that will have hanging flowers in the summer and a Nativity for the holidays.
I loose track of how many pageants they do. I know they give money to a few National church organizations. And fund local women's and children's rescue. They have a fund to help local families. All great, they do considerable good for the local community. But its an astronomical budget for such a small congregation. They aren't rich people, middle class Northern Michigan.

But the Pastor has that shtick down tight the building is nice looking and they keep their name in peoples mouths.

Even broke churches get by or they die out just like businesses, no conspiracy against god. You can"t deny there is money in it, won't convince me any way I live in the buckle of the Bible belt and here there is no such thing as a broke church.

I think my story is the perfect example of where when you have enough info presented to you in a fair way Christianity and religion in general fall flat in a head to head comparison with science.

I never rebelled against my parents, I went to regular school and I was good at science and learned from an early age just not to talk about it. My dislike of Christianity comes from growing up studying the Bible and science side by side. I started to see things in the Bible, which I was told was the literal word of god, that didn't sit well with me. The god from the Bible is a monster toying with playthings. Quite a few of his actions in the old testament made it seem to me that I had higher morals than God. Then years of sitting through every which way to explain and confuse away science because it disproves Genesis left me pretty well decided that I was smarter than most of the adults in those conversations, most of what they were saying was using a belief to validate itself and that all of it was ignorant and not healthy for me.

Never argued with it, your house your rules and just stopped going when I moved out on my own.

Radicalism bothers me, no matter where it comes from and if its your people doing it, fringe minority or not, if your name is getting hung on it, the buck stops with you. Not our job to safe guard the world from your wingnuts and wingnuts are like opinions which are like ....

I don't care if your group is about football put your own wingnuts on a leash.

Its called having a spine.
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Old September 1st, 2012, 08:36 PM   #70 (permalink)
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It doesn't take much to keep a church running though. You have to realize that people aren't there but a few times a week. Utility bills aren't a lot. A lot of the work is done by volunteers. If your pastor is bi-vocational and the central organization is paying the bill for the building, then a church can run on next to nothing.
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Old September 1st, 2012, 09:58 PM   #71 (permalink)
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...in the Vatican
Scientology, Latter Day Saints, etc...
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Old September 2nd, 2012, 01:55 AM   #72 (permalink)
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So what? Life isn't fair.
My point is even people as far to the right economically like you think this distribution of wealth is inherently unfair, and don't even realise how little the bottom two quintiles have.
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Old September 2nd, 2012, 03:33 AM   #73 (permalink)
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Wooooooow

I am very very confuseded.



Wasn't this thread supposed to be about evolution guys?

LOL

Hahahaaa!

xD

I personally believe evolution is right on target.

I always wonder what the human race will look like in 100 000 years time.

(If we survive that long sadly)

Always wonder that hey.

Very interesting topic

+ 1

But try keep on topic you trolls you!

xD
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Old September 2nd, 2012, 08:12 AM   #74 (permalink)
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My point is even people as far to the right economically like you think this distribution of wealth is inherently unfair, and don't even realise how little the bottom two quintiles have.
I still fail to see how this is relevant. People are not all equal. We are not created equal. We all have differing abilities, skills, talents, intelligence levels, athletic skills, etc..... Wealth doesn't just stay at the top forever and ever amen. The stats show that that wealth fluctuates. At least it does here in the US. People move from lower class to middle class all the time. And people move from wealthy to middle class all the time.

I work with a guy who used to make well over six figures and live in a huge house. I used to make $30k and live in a 400 sq ft duplex. Now we make the same and he lives in an apartment and can't afford anything else because he's buried in debt. I live in a nice house that will be paid off early. I know this is just an anecdotal example, but I don't think this is unusual in the US. People change their social status all the time.

Besides that, if I walk up to some rich guy, hit him over the head and take his money for myself I go to jail. My reasoning for what I did may be that I had nothing and he was rich and didn't need what I took, but it doesn't matter. The feds use the force of government to do the same thing and it's somehow not only ok, but laudable and worth doing and we should do more of it. How does that make sense?

The fact that wealth is distributed inequally means nothing. Intelligence is distributed inequally. So is good looks. So what?
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Old September 2nd, 2012, 09:09 AM   #75 (permalink)
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So do you not believe in the concept of the social contract?
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Old September 2nd, 2012, 10:41 AM   #76 (permalink)
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Well just to try and stay on the topic at least a little bit.

I think creationism should be banned from being taught at school etc etc.

But I don't believe evolution should be taught or forced to be taught at school though.

It should be optional but NO.

I don't believe creationism should be forced to be taught at schools ANY WHERE.

I believe there should be a "middle ground" or something called maybe or perhaps like "Life Lessons" or some other kind of class that talks rationally about certain subjects.

Where the class can talk about anything they want to that is stimulating.

Where everyone gets to have their point of view, and RESPECT that point of view and not disrespect it.

Whatever the heck it is doesn't matter, not even a flying foo because I like freedom and above all respecting people's rights.

People should not be forced to learn creationism at school... this would be a bad move, this will just diminish intellect and bring back the Dark Ages kind of thinking.

Do we really want to go back to the Dark Ages?

I for one like flushing my toilet and not having to dig a hole 1.5 meters deep just to make a little poop.

BUT in "Life Lessons" or just maybe "Life Class" everyone can discuss anything they want to.

Human rights.

EVOLUTION.

Abortions.

Gay Marriage and all that other stuff that this crazy planet just don't want to accept.

Well... just my 2 cents

Let the debate carry on!

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Old September 2nd, 2012, 12:02 PM   #77 (permalink)
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So do you not believe in the concept of the social contract?
In what way? The term social contract can be somewhat vague.
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Old September 2nd, 2012, 02:53 PM   #78 (permalink)
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The Theory of Evolution should be taught right alongside other well founded and accepted science. In science class. After all, the basic science behind evolution is so well accepted, that it is considered a Theory. And for those who say, 'it's just a theory', well, make sure you know what a theory describes when used as a science term. Creationism, Intelligent Design, whatever you want to call it, should be discussed in a philosophy or religion class. And by the way, creationism or intelligent design is not a theory, it is merely an idea. One which is not falsifiable.

Scientific theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old September 2nd, 2012, 03:41 PM   #79 (permalink)
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The Theory of Evolution should be taught right alongside other well founded and accepted science. In science class. After all, the basic science behind evolution is so well accepted, that it is considered a Theory. And for those who say, 'it's just a theory', well, make sure you know what a theory describes when used as a science term. Creationism, Intelligent Design, whatever you want to call it, should be discussed in a philosophy or religion class. And by the way, creationism or intelligent design is not a theory, it is merely an idea. One which is not falsifiable.

Scientific theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Creationism/ Intelligent Design should be relegated to Myths, Folklore & Tall Tales classes, which is debatable, for it lacks a coherent narrative.
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Old September 2nd, 2012, 07:59 PM   #80 (permalink)
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In what way? The term social contract can be somewhat vague.
Social contract - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In political philosophy the social contract or political contract is an intellectual construct, originating during the Enlightenment, that typically addresses the questions of the origin of society and the legitimacy of the authority of the state over the individual. Social contract arguments typically posit that individuals have consented, either explicitly or tacitly, to surrender some of their freedoms and submit to the authority of the ruler or magistrate (or to the decision of a majority), in exchange for protection of their rights. The question of the relation between natural and legal rights, therefore, is often an aspect of social contract theory.
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Old September 2nd, 2012, 09:16 PM   #81 (permalink)
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Social contract - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In political philosophy the social contract or political contract is an intellectual construct, originating during the Enlightenment, that typically addresses the questions of the origin of society and the legitimacy of the authority of the state over the individual. Social contract arguments typically posit that individuals have consented, either explicitly or tacitly, to surrender some of their freedoms and submit to the authority of the ruler or magistrate (or to the decision of a majority), in exchange for protection of their rights. The question of the relation between natural and legal rights, therefore, is often an aspect of social contract theory.
Are you using it in the sense that we have surrendered some of our freedoms (like the freedom to rape and pillage without consequence) for protection of our rights (speech, property, etc...)? If that's the case, then yes I believe in that. I've heard some use the social contract argument to make a case that we have a moral obligation to care for every member of society regardless of why they need to be cared for.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 02:27 AM   #82 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by mriff View Post
The Theory of Evolution should be taught right alongside other well founded and accepted science. In science class. After all, the basic science behind evolution is so well accepted, that it is considered a Theory. And for those who say, 'it's just a theory', well, make sure you know what a theory describes when used as a science term. Creationism, Intelligent Design, whatever you want to call it, should be discussed in a philosophy or religion class. And by the way, creationism or intelligent design is not a theory, it is merely an idea. One which is not falsifiable.

Scientific theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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This is what I was trying to say but some how failed to say it LOL!

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