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Old September 3rd, 2012, 04:42 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default RNC 2012 uproar

RNC Sham 2012 - YouTube

Any thoughts? Do you believe Ron Paul should have gotten it?

Personally I find this to be ridiculous changing rules just so they will get who they want and not what the people.. I see a better chance with Ron Paul up for election vs having Romney.

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Old September 3rd, 2012, 05:28 PM   #2 (permalink)
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RNC Sham 2012 - YouTube

Any thoughts? Do you believe Ron Paul should have gotten it?

Personally I find this to be ridiculous changing rules just so they will get who they want and not what the people.. I see a better chance with Ron Paul up for election vs having Romney.
Duh, this is the Republican Party, where the leadership selects it's electorate and vote counting be damned.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 07:17 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Duh, this is the Republican Party, where the leadership selects it's electorate and vote counting be damned.
Democratic party is worse in this regard. Someone like Ron Paul would have no hopes of getting anywhere in the Democratic party.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 07:47 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Ralph Reed, a Republican defined Christian, has been resurrected at the RNC 2012, with a few 10's of $millions from "secret" admires.
Gives a new meaning to bringing in the sheep.

Ralph Reed: From Purgatory to Power | Moyers & Company | BillMoyers.com

"BILL MOYERS: In 2000, Reed helped put George W. Bush and Dick Cheney in the White House.

GEORGE W. BUSH: Ralph Reed is with us, he’s the southeast regional chairman.

BILL MOYERS: And four years later he corralled true believers for their re-election. But Reed fell from grace in 2006 after he was implicated in the biggest Washington scandal since Watergate. His pal and colleague, the lobbyist Jack Abramoff, pleaded guilty to defrauding clients of millions of dollars. Some of which had landed in Reed’s pockets as well. Reed’s exile in political purgatory was cut short in 2008 by an event he said left him feeling as if he’d “been hit by a truck” - Barack Obama’s victory:

BARACK OBAMA: If there is anyone out there who still doubts that America is a place where all things are possible […] tonight is your answer."
.
.
.
"RALPH REED: “Hey, now that I’m done with electoral politics, I need to start humping in corporate accounts! I’m counting on you to help me with some contacts.”

BILL MOYERS: Abramoff came through. He and Reed teamed up in a campaign to protect the Choctaw casino against competition from other tribes. The scheme called for Reed to organize his fellow Christians to oppose new casinos on moral grounds -- without ever revealing to them that his own client, “Casino Jack” was in the gambling business, too. Emails between them make clear where the money came from. When Reed pushed for a ‘green light’ to organize Christians in Alabama against gambling, Abramoff said approval would first have to come from the Choctaw, and demanded:

JACK ABRAMOFF: "… get me invoices as soon as possible so I can get Choctaw to get us checks asap."

BILL MOYERS: Reed wrote back with a list and a total:

RALPH REED: “We have fronted $100K, which is a lot for us.”

BILL MOYERS: Abramoff promised to do what he could.

RALPH REED: “Any chance that a wire from Choctaw directly would be OK?”

BILL MOYERS: Just days later, Reed tells Abramoff:

RALPH REED: ”…We are opening the bomb bays and holding nothing back.”

JACK ABRAMOFF: “Yeaaaa baaabby!!!”

BILL MOYERS: To conceal the source of the money being paid to Reed from the trusting believers he had recruited, Abramoff once again turned to their accomplice Grover Norquist, who used his anti-tax campaign as cover. In turn, when Norquist needed money for his own organization he turned to Abramoff.

GROVER NORQUIST: “What is the status of the Choctaw stuff. I have a $75K hole in my budget from last year. ouch.”

BILL MOYERS: In a reminder to himself, Abramoff Notes:

JACK ABRAMOFF: “Call Ralph re Grover doing pass-through”

BILL MOYERS: And then tells Reed:

JACK ABRAMOFF: “I need to give Grover something for helping, so the first transfer will be a bit lighter.”

BILL MOYERS: With the next 300,000 dollars, Norquist took a taste of the action. When he did it again, Abramoff noted his surprise.

JACK ABRAMOFF: “grover kept another $25K!”

BILL MOYERS: The money spigot was now wide open. Abramoff was being paid millions as a lobbyist. Reed was being paid millions to dupe his fellow Christians. And Norquist was feeding cash to his political operation by acting as their front. The one-time college Republicans had turned the conservative revolution into a racket."
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Old September 4th, 2012, 02:16 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Democratic party is worse in this regard. Someone like Ron Paul would have no hopes of getting anywhere in the Democratic party.
Speculation on your part.

As we can all see from the OP what the Republican leadership actually did at their convention. No speculation required.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 02:24 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I'd have to look at the rules, but I seem to recall that one party requires a plurality of delegates for nomination and the other requires an actual majority. I can't recall which is which at the moment though and I'm too lazy to look it up. Whatever party requires a majority virtually ensures someone like Paul has no chance while requiring a plurality means someone like Paul could have a shot.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 03:34 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I'd have to look at the rules, but I seem to recall that one party requires a plurality of delegates for nomination and the other requires an actual majority. I can't recall which is which at the moment though and I'm too lazy to look it up. Whatever party requires a majority virtually ensures someone like Paul has no chance while requiring a plurality means someone like Paul could have a shot.
I'm too lazy to read your post.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 04:15 PM   #8 (permalink)
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GOP Establishment Declares War on Grassroots Activists - YouTube!

this is another thing that to me gets me annoyed, why call a vote if it has already been scripted to win? The conference was a joke and Romney will definitely not be getting my vote
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Old September 4th, 2012, 04:33 PM   #9 (permalink)
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GOP Establishment Declares War on Grassroots Activists - YouTube!

this is another thing that to me gets me annoyed, why call a vote if it has already been scripted to win? The conference was a joke and Romney will definitely not be getting my vote
The Dems are doing the same thing. It's how party politics run. The National Convention for both parties is extremely scripted including the voting. It's predetermined before they vote.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 06:45 PM   #10 (permalink)
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The Dems are doing the same thing. It's how party politics run. The National Convention for both parties is extremely scripted including the voting. It's predetermined before they vote.
Well, as demonstrated by the poster, the RNC is fixed, so you are just speculating on the DNC.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 07:02 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Well, as demonstrated by the poster, the RNC is fixed, so you are just speculating on the DNC.
No, the DNC is equally fixed. It's a given that Obama will be nominated yet they'll hold a vote anyway even though everyone knows what the outcome of the vote will be.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 08:58 PM   #12 (permalink)
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No, the DNC is equally fixed. It's a given that Obama will be nominated yet they'll hold a vote anyway even though everyone knows what the outcome of the vote will be.
Yea the DNC is given that Obama will be it, and yes to be "fair" they will hold a vote though i do not see it being as controversial as what the RNC turned out to be
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Old September 4th, 2012, 09:16 PM   #13 (permalink)
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No, the DNC is equally fixed. It's a given that Obama will be nominated yet they'll hold a vote anyway even though everyone knows what the outcome of the vote will be.
Well, a far as I know Obama won enough delegates in the primaries to win the nomination. The OP was about rule changes and poster made a convincing case that the voting on these rules wasn't democratic.

You have yet to go beyond speculation.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 09:24 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Yea the DNC is given that Obama will be it, and yes to be "fair" they will hold a vote though i do not see it being as controversial as what the RNC turned out to be
I don't think anyone other than Paul supporters thought the RNC voting was "controversial". Ron Paul didn't win a single primary. For him to have won the nomination would've been a complete travesty. That would've been controversial.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 10:00 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I don't think anyone other than Paul supporters thought the RNC voting was "controversial". ...
I think as more people learn about the teleprompter vote, delegate removal, among other events, it will be "controversial".

Ron Paul delegates and supporters walk out of RNC in protest | Florida politics blog: The Buzz | Tampa Bay Times

"But it underscored the bitter divide between the small but feuding faction of the Paul and tea party sector of the party and the establishment factions that controlled the convention’s well choreographed show.

The Romney campaign engineered a rule change late Monday that tightened the rules in a way that gave candidates more control over the delegates assigned to them during the primaries in the national convention.

The rules previously had allowed delegates to switch to another candidate on the convention floor, potentially giving rise to an insurgency movement that could lead to a delegate fight."
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Old September 5th, 2012, 07:10 AM   #16 (permalink)
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I think as more people learn about the teleprompter vote, delegate removal, among other events, it will be "controversial".

Ron Paul delegates and supporters walk out of RNC in protest | Florida politics blog: The Buzz | Tampa Bay Times

"But it underscored the bitter divide between the small but feuding faction of the Paul and tea party sector of the party and the establishment factions that controlled the convention’s well choreographed show.

The Romney campaign engineered a rule change late Monday that tightened the rules in a way that gave candidates more control over the delegates assigned to them during the primaries in the national convention.

The rules previously had allowed delegates to switch to another candidate on the convention floor, potentially giving rise to an insurgency movement that could lead to a delegate fight."
Ron Paul won close to 200 delegates without winning the popular vote in a single primary. In fact he didn't even come close to winning a single primary. Finished dead last in almost every single one of them. You don't think the delegate count should reflect that?
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Old September 5th, 2012, 08:00 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Ron Paul won close to 200 delegates without winning the popular vote in a single primary. In fact he didn't even come close to winning a single primary. Finished dead last in almost every single one of them. You don't think the delegate count should reflect that?
Well from what little I know about the way Republicans award delegates, many state organizations have a caucus which the actual delegates are selected. Ron Paul claimed he won the majority of those state delegates in 8 states.

I see no reason why Romney didn't give Ron Paul his 15 minutes of fame and let him speak at the RNC.

I believe the supporters of Ron Paul and others are upset about how the voting on rules were conducted, i.e. the teleprompter vote.
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Old September 5th, 2012, 09:51 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Well from what little I know about the way Republicans award delegates, many state organizations have a caucus which the actual delegates are selected. Ron Paul claimed he won the majority of those state delegates in 8 states.

I see no reason why Romney didn't give Ron Paul his 15 minutes of fame and let him speak at the RNC.

I believe the supporters of Ron Paul and others are upset about how the voting on rules were conducted, i.e. the teleprompter vote.
Some states do use caucuses. Actually both parties use the caucus system in some states. This is a flaw in the system IMO and Paul and his followers exploited it expertly. The current system for the GOP (and possibly for the Dems as well) makes it possible for a candidate to (theoretically) gain enough delegates to be nominated without winning a single vote in any primary. This is a flaw in the system. A system that would allow someone to be nominated by the party after they've been rejected at the polls is a flawed system that needs to be fixed. The Republicans are trying to fix that flaw.

The scripted voting is normal for a nominating convention. Both parties do it.
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Old September 5th, 2012, 10:31 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Do you guys really think that it matters?!? All politicians are bought and paid for by the highest bidder.
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Old September 5th, 2012, 10:32 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Do you guys really think that it matters?!? All politicians are bought and paid for by the highest bidder.
All except one...
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Old September 6th, 2012, 05:19 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Some states do use caucuses. Actually both parties use the caucus system in some states. This is a flaw in the system IMO and Paul and his followers exploited it expertly. The current system for the GOP (and possibly for the Dems as well) makes it possible for a candidate to (theoretically) gain enough delegates to be nominated without winning a single vote in any primary. This is a flaw in the system. A system that would allow someone to be nominated by the party after they've been rejected at the polls is a flawed system that needs to be fixed. The Republicans are trying to fix that flaw.

The scripted voting is normal for a nominating convention. Both parties do it.
Looks like the Democrats started reforms in 1968, but then again, they're a bunch of progressives, not like Republicans, who can't do anything till failure is a done deal.

Unlocking The Mysteries Of Delegate Selection : NPR

"The intent of the McGovern-Fraser Commission reforms — the reforms that changed this presidential nomination process — was to bring in more rank-and-file opinions within the party to this process and not make it look as if it was just a decision from the elites within the party. The intent was to make the process more democratic. ... It made the primaries and caucuses binding — that the decisions made in those [contests] would affect the delegates that were chosen to go to the convention, and thereby [affect] who the ultimate nominee was going to be.""
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Old September 6th, 2012, 07:20 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Democratic delegates aren't bound either. Remember the whole superdelegate thing from four years ago? That was all because those delegates aren't legally bound.
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Old September 6th, 2012, 11:51 AM   #23 (permalink)
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No, the DNC is equally fixed. It's a given that Obama will be nominated yet they'll hold a vote anyway even though everyone knows what the outcome of the vote will be.
Yes, when you have an incumbent, *shock* they will get the nomination.

Stop with your "equally as bad" horseshit plz.

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Do you guys really think that it matters?!? All politicians are bought and paid for by the highest bidder.
That's not true for every politician
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Old September 6th, 2012, 09:33 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Blood in the water? We can only hope. We could get really lucky and this be the Implosion of the party that will lead to the end of gridlock caused by a minority fringe.

Or its just politics as usually, 80% of them are lawyers and arguing is what they went to college for.
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Old September 7th, 2012, 12:34 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Yes, when you have an incumbent, *shock* they will get the nomination.

Stop with your "equally as bad" horseshit plz.
But it's still scripted. It's just as scripted as the Republicans. Four years ago there was no incumbent and it was still scripted and people were bitching about the fact that super delegates can vote for whomever they please. Now people are are bitching about how the Republicans are closing loopholes that let their delegates do the same thing essentially and saying the Republicans should've closed them years ago. It's ridiculous hypocrisy.

Both parties are the same in far more ways than they are different. But politics nowadays is a religion. No one cares any longer about what is actually right or wrong or what the best solution is. It's all about power. It's all about money. Both sides are in the pockets of various corporations. If Party A proposes a solution no thought is actually given to whether the solution is a good one or not. Party B will immediately attack the solution and make ad hominen attacks against Party A as well. Party A will do the same thing when Party B proposes a solution. It's the most ridiculous system in the world. The emperor has no clothes and no one is saying a word about it. Instead they pretend that one party is populated by saints and the other by demons.
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Old September 7th, 2012, 03:19 PM   #26 (permalink)
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But it's still scripted. It's just as scripted as the Republicans. Four years ago there was no incumbent and it was still scripted and people were bitching about the fact that super delegates can vote for whomever they please. Now people are are bitching about how the Republicans are closing loopholes that let their delegates do the same thing essentially and saying the Republicans should've closed them years ago. It's ridiculous hypocrisy.
I'm not complaining about that. US political parties really need to tighten up and get a whip system to end the current mess.
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Old September 7th, 2012, 04:58 PM   #27 (permalink)
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The only way out of this mess is WWIII. Or people taking responsibility for their actions.
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Old September 7th, 2012, 05:23 PM   #28 (permalink)
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The only way out of this mess is WWIII.
War is a very costly way of achieving change that could be done without wasting resources.
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Old September 7th, 2012, 10:45 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Well, people taking responsibility for their actions is ideal, but sadly, not likely.
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Old September 8th, 2012, 12:09 AM   #30 (permalink)
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... Remember the whole superdelegate thing from four years ago? That was all because those delegates aren't legally bound.
No. The DNC 2008 candidate was decided well before the convention.

Superdelegate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

At the 2008 Democratic National Convention, the superdelegates made up approximately one-fifth of the total number of delegates. The closeness of the race between the leading contenders, Hillary Rodham Clinton and Barack Obama, led to speculation that the superdelegates would play a decisive role in selecting the nominee, a prospect that caused unease among some Democratic Party leaders.[13] Obama, however, won a majority of the pledged delegates[14] and of the superdelegates, and won the Democratic presidential nomination.[15]
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Old September 8th, 2012, 08:27 AM   #31 (permalink)
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No. The DNC 2008 candidate was decided well before the convention.

Superdelegate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

At the 2008 Democratic National Convention, the superdelegates made up approximately one-fifth of the total number of delegates. The closeness of the race between the leading contenders, Hillary Rodham Clinton and Barack Obama, led to speculation that the superdelegates would play a decisive role in selecting the nominee, a prospect that caused unease among some Democratic Party leaders.[13] Obama, however, won a majority of the pledged delegates[14] and of the superdelegates, and won the Democratic presidential nomination.[15]
The same thing that happened this year. The same thing that has happened every year since the mid 70s. Nevertheless there was talk that Clinton might sway enough of the super-delegates to her side that there might be some sort of brokered convention. Before the convention it became obvious that was not going to happen. Same thing happened this year with the GOP. There was talk that Paul might somehow be able to sway enough delegates to deny Romney the nomination. It became clear before the convention that was not going to happen. The GOP closed a loophole that caused the speculation in the first place and the Dems criticize them for not closing it earlier even though they have a loophole of their own.
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Old September 8th, 2012, 09:09 AM   #32 (permalink)
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The same thing that happened this year. The same thing that has happened every year since the mid 70s. Nevertheless there was talk that Clinton might sway enough of the super-delegates to her side that there might be some sort of brokered convention. Before the convention it became obvious that was not going to happen. Same thing happened this year with the GOP. There was talk that Paul might somehow be able to sway enough delegates to deny Romney the nomination. It became clear before the convention that was not going to happen. The GOP closed a loophole that caused the speculation in the first place and the Dems criticize them for not closing it earlier even though they have a loophole of their own.
Closing the loophole was a good thing. Doing it right before the convention to ensure a victory be 1 canidate over an other is shameful.

Much in the same way as purging legally registered voters from the rolls right before an election with knowledge they won't get it straitened out in time to vote.
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Old September 8th, 2012, 09:26 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Ron Paul was not going to win. The rule change goes in place next cycle, not this one unless I'm mistaken.
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Old September 8th, 2012, 10:23 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Seems to me the issue was it went into affect now and that is how they replaced the state delegates with hand picked party delegates chosen by the the national party.

Paul has never had a chance because the party leaders oppose him not because the people do.
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Old September 8th, 2012, 12:44 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Seems to me the issue was it went into affect now and that is how they replaced the state delegates with hand picked party delegates chosen by the the national party.

Paul has never had a chance because the party leaders oppose him not because the people do.
Umm, Paul did not win the popular vote in a single primary. So it's pretty clear the people aren't exactly on his side.
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Old September 8th, 2012, 06:07 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Democratic delegates aren't bound either. Remember the whole superdelegate thing from four years ago? That was all because those delegates aren't legally bound.
The controversy at the 2012 RNC had nothing to do with Super delegates. Both parties Super delegates are still not legally bound, but are uncommitted.

Ron Paul supporters come up short in rules fight

"Amidst a contentious scene on the floor of the convention, House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio) ruled that the committee rules had passed by a voice vote — despite loud protest from many in the arena.
Delegates — many of them from the Texas delegation, where Paul serves in Congress — booed loudly after Boehner made the ruling and chanted “point of order” in an attempt to order a re-vote."

"The RNC rules committee last week adopted a rule under which states would be required to allocate delegates according to the statewide vote – a move that was pretty clearly aimed at avoiding situation like this year, when Ron Paul supporters effectively took over the delegate-nominating process in a few states that he didn’t win. Some states, like Maine, currently do not allocate delegates based on the statewide vote, but rather through a lengthy and complicated process that follows.

In addition, the rules committee adopted another rule that would allow for the committee to changes its rules between conventions. Currently, a full convention vote is needed to change the rules."

"Another RNC committee last week recommended that half the Maine delegation not be seated after it found problems with the way the state’s delegates were selected."
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Old September 8th, 2012, 07:13 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Those changes now make the GOP strikingly different from the Democratic party where delegates (in some states) are not bound by primary voting. What Paul did (winning delegates without ever winning a primary) could no longer happen in the GOP but could happen to the Democrats. So Democrats are bashing Republicans for not doing this earlier while ignoring the fact that their party rules are the same as the GOP rules before the change.
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Old September 9th, 2012, 12:16 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Those changes now make the GOP strikingly different from the Democratic party where delegates (in some states) are not bound by primary voting. What Paul did (winning delegates without ever winning a primary) could no longer happen in the GOP but could happen to the Democrats. So Democrats are bashing Republicans for not doing this earlier while ignoring the fact that their party rules are the same as the GOP rules before the change.
Paul played by the then rules and won some delegates when the delegates were actually selected.

Stop making things up, the RNC is now more similar to the DNC, except DNC delegates are proportional to the vote (primaries or caucuses) , i.e., no winner take all, but candidate must receive 15% of vote to get any delegates.

The big difference is the DNC make rules at the convention, RNC now can make up rules without a delegate vote anytime the party leaders feel like it. Unelected elite (Super Delegates) rules RNC.
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Old September 9th, 2012, 01:42 AM   #39 (permalink)
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War is a very costly way of achieving change that could be done without wasting resources.
Yeah but we don't seem to have any other tools to boost "the economy".
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Old September 9th, 2012, 05:22 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Yeah but we don't seem to have any other tools to boost "the economy".
Well, I think the idea of never ending economic growth probably needs to be looked at. The focus should be on improving peoples lives.
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Old September 9th, 2012, 11:41 AM   #41 (permalink)
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"Growth is the philosophy of the cancer cell" - I think that was Edward Abbey.

Alan Watts said that the Great Depression was like you showing up for work and all the materials to do your job are there but the boss sends you home because "we're out of inches". Money is a measurement.

Here's an interesting article on GDP:
http://harpers.org/archive/2008/06/0082042
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Old September 9th, 2012, 01:02 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Paul played by the then rules and won some delegates when the delegates were actually selected.

Stop making things up, the RNC is now more similar to the DNC, except DNC delegates are proportional to the vote (primaries or caucuses) , i.e., no winner take all, but candidate must receive 15% of vote to get any delegates.

The big difference is the DNC make rules at the convention, RNC now can make up rules without a delegate vote anytime the party leaders feel like it. Unelected elite (Super Delegates) rules RNC.
Except that it's not more similar. The rules in the RNC now make the selection of delegates reflect the voting in the primaries. The rules in the DNC don't do that as well. Depending on the rules of the state, delegates can be selected that don't reflect the voting in the primaries at all. That was the loophole that Paul and his organization exploited. That loophole still exists in the DNC rules.
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Old September 9th, 2012, 01:21 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Except that it's not more similar. The rules in the RNC now make the selection of delegates reflect the voting in the primaries. The rules in the DNC don't do that as well. Depending on the rules of the state, delegates can be selected that don't reflect the voting in the primaries at all. That was the loophole that Paul and his organization exploited. That loophole still exists in the DNC rules.
I provide sources that disagree with your statement, do you have a source that supports your statement ?

It's a moot point, as now the RNC leadership can change the method of delegate selection at will.
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