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Old September 20th, 2012, 10:21 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Omnipotence is an Absurdity.

I base that opinion on the Omnipotence Paradox.

Most religions make the claim their God is Omnipotent. Literally meaning all power.

You hear this echoed repeatedly "the all mighty God" Further that he is omnipresent as part of this omnipotence.

Going by memory for this date of 800 years ago. The Omnipotence Paradox completely debunks the possibility of an Omnipotent God.

I am working here completely from personal knowledge so no links but google as ever is your friend if you would like to fact check my statements.

Here is the logical method used to reach a paradox.

Can God as an Omnipotent being create a rock so massive that he, himself can not lift it?

Yes? That proves with out doubt that he is not Omnipotent because he can not lift the rock.

No? That proves he is not Omnipotent because he can not create the rock he can't lift.

Its a perfect paradox which in philosophical and scientific view is the end of a line of debate or questioning.

Now I know some of you are off to try to debunk this and please feel free. In some 800 years the only way this paradox has been debunked was to change the definition of Omnipotence. There are currently 4 different definitions regarding this topic. The 1st is literal omnipotence which just died in a paradox above.
The others redefine the rules of omnipotence which define the limits of God and no matter how long you argue them having to limit God's omnipotence to break the paradox just reinforces it.

Discuss.

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Old September 23rd, 2012, 09:32 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I just read and am posting a quick response to get the discusion going because I enjoy this stuff.
I will probably change my statement later, but here goes...

it seems the omnipotent god thing is mostly seen in religions with one god.
If you turn to religions with multiple gods they are more limited and much more "human".
Take Greek mythology, Hinduism and Shintoism.
They all have lots of gods and have conflicts. there is a hierarchy but not one omnipotent god.

I think if the theory of omnipotence is a paradox, therefore a silly concept, it is not the theory itself that is faulty but the humans for believing in an omnipotent god and not choosing other religions.
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Old September 23rd, 2012, 04:50 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I think if the theory of omnipotence is a paradox, therefore a silly concept, it is not the theory itself that is faulty but the humans for believing in an omnipotent god and not choosing other religions.
Not sure it is a serious theory. There is no scientific evidence to suggest that a supreme being exists. The idea came from religion and those that believed in various Gods. Thor, for example.

If God created the heavens and the earth, there goes science. Science cant begin to explain how a single being can/could create the heavens and the earth, so they create theories and they discover natural laws and toss in a little math to explain how things happened.

I cannot see how science can ever co-exist with God. I tend to substitute the word God for Science. You might believe in a supreme being, but I believe in rules and laws. Religious folks call this God and I call it science.

Perhaps God is not omnipotent; he simply has powers so great, we cannot understand them and we think they are without limits. Perhaps whoever created God has more powers? If so, who created THAT person/entity/being?
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Old September 23rd, 2012, 06:03 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PH8AL View Post
I base that opinion on the Omnipotence Paradox.

Most religions make the claim their God is Omnipotent. Literally meaning all power.
·
·
·
Here is the logical method used to reach a paradox.

Can God as an Omnipotent being create a rock so massive that he, himself can not lift it?

Yes? That proves with out doubt that he is not Omnipotent because he can not lift the rock.

No? That proves he is not Omnipotent because he can not create the rock he can't lift.

Its a perfect paradox which in philosophical and scientific view is the end of a line of debate or questioning.
Or perhaps it is simply a representation of the inability of us, as very limited, finite beings, to truly understand the infinite. If there truly exists a God who is infinite and omnipotent, then I see no reason at all to suppose that it would be within the capability of us finite mortals to understand his infiniteness. I think that paradoxes such as you describe are an obvious and expected result of our own failure to understand infinity on our own finite terms.


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If God created the heavens and the earth, there goes science. Science cant begin to explain how a single being can/could create the heavens and the earth, so they create theories and they discover natural laws and toss in a little math to explain how things happened.

I cannot see how science can ever co-exist with God. I tend to substitute the word God for Science. You might believe in a supreme being, but I believe in rules and laws. Religious folks call this God and I call it science.
We have here, two sources of “truth”—science and religion—which, at times, appear to contradict one another. It is my belief that as mortals, our understanding of both these sources is incomplete, and filled with artificial errors of our own making. Certainly, it should be obvious from all the various conflicting versions of religion that exist, that Mankind is far from having a solid handle on it. It is my belief that if we had a truly complete and correct understanding of religious truth and of scientific truth, that we would find that they are perfectly consistent with one another, and that there are no conflicts between them. I think that any conflicts that we think we see are a direct result of our own incomplete and erroneous understanding.


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Perhaps God is not omnipotent; he simply has powers so great, we cannot understand them and we think they are without limits.
I have a theory concerning this. My theory is vaguely hinted at by the understanding that science is just beginning to have of the finiteness of the Universe, and by a scriptural writing of my own religion. The theory is clear in my head, but I am not sure if I can explain it very well.

Consider that science is beginning to understand that the universe is not truly finite that it has a finite size. This suggests the possibility that there is something beyond the Universe, beyond what to us, for all intents and purposes, is infinite.

In Moses 1:33,35,37, God speaks to Moses of having created worlds and heavens without number.
For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.
They cannot be numbered unto Man (meaning, perhaps, that to us, they are infinite) but they can be numbered unto God (perhaps meaning that to him, they are finite).

I theorize that God exists outside of what is infinite to mortal Mankind—that all that we can perceive of infinite time and infinite space, with no beginning and no end; all of this is within a range that to God is finite and limited.
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Old September 24th, 2012, 03:44 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Religion is opium for the masses. It exist to keep the rulers in power. Monotheism fits well within the fuehrer ideology.
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Old September 26th, 2012, 08:32 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
I have a theory concerning this. My theory is vaguely hinted at by the understanding that science is just beginning to have of the finiteness of the Universe, and by a scriptural writing of my own religion. The theory is clear in my head, but I am not sure if I can explain it very well.

Consider that science is beginning to understand that the universe is not truly finite that it has a finite size. This suggests the possibility that there is something beyond the Universe, beyond what to us, for all intents and purposes, is infinite.

In Moses 1:33,35,37, God speaks to Moses of having created worlds and heavens without number.
For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.
They cannot be numbered unto Man (meaning, perhaps, that to us, they are infinite) but they can be numbered unto God (perhaps meaning that to him, they are finite).

I theorize that God exists outside of what is infinite to mortal Mankind—that all that we can perceive of infinite time and infinite space, with no beginning and no end; all of this is within a range that to God is finite and limited.
The quote means very little. Since God is still a matter of guessing and faith and whatever he told Moses matters very little unless you believe the bible is true and God is real. Then you need no proof because you have faith.

Scientists can say "I have faith that string theory is correct." The problem with that, is scientists require proof, and according to many that study ST, they will likely never have proof. They will likely never see or measure or prove strings exist; just take it on faith that they do. Scientific methods be dammed.

God could have told moses anything and mortal man had no choice but to believe. Failure to believe could mean an inqusition or you would be judged a witch or simply stoned dead in the street.

He could have simply assumed that the universe is forever.

Today, we have science and if that science disagrees with religon, we have a problem. When science starts to agree with the bible, leaders proclaim how great it is that science has begun to prove God is real. then scentists say they were wrong and the worm turns. Religion does not want proof because with proof comes a loss of power.

Not sure God can be proven any more than an infinite universe can likely be proven. Actually, God does not exist in my opinion; to believe he does, I must know if he is a he or perhaps a she or something completely different. Too many unanswered questions, like who created God; who created the God creator comes next.

Lots of theories out there that are just that, theories. For example, The Big Bang. No actual proof it happened. The dinosaurs. No proof a celestial body had anything to do with their exit from this mortal coil.

Theories and assumptions, but no actual proof. Just revisions in the furute or theories are replaced with new theories.
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