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Old September 21st, 2012, 10:35 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Keep politicians hands off the election process

Voting is national, we need a national solution.

Ending the Voting Wars | TPM Editors Blog

We could eliminate all the problems with voter registration fraud, double voting across state lines, noncitizen voting, and onerous state voter identification requirements by tasking a national independent election agency with registering all eligible voters and providing all voters a national voter card free of charge (including charges for secondary documents needed to verify identity). Voters would have the option of sharing a thumbprint, which could be used to verify identity if a voter loses or forgets the card. The government would register new voters when they turn 18, graduate high school or drop out. When you fill out a change-of-address card at the post office, your voter registration automatically moves with you.

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Old September 21st, 2012, 11:02 PM   #2 (permalink)
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and this is somehow different than what is already being proposed in various states across the country....... which you whine about every step of the way?

sounds to me like racism and disenfranchisement of poor elderly blacks...... not to mention discrimination against illegal aliens' right to vote
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Old September 22nd, 2012, 08:50 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Yeah, I'm confused. You've come out in opposition of voter id laws claiming they disenfranchise the poor and the ethnic minorities.
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Old September 22nd, 2012, 11:58 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Yeah, I'm confused. You've come out in opposition of voter id laws claiming they disenfranchise the poor and the ethnic minorities.
I think its more an issue of a fair system of registering to vote, as is done elsewhere.
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Old September 22nd, 2012, 01:36 PM   #5 (permalink)
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and yet another ..... the hypocrisy and irony is abundant in this thread
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Old September 22nd, 2012, 01:52 PM   #6 (permalink)
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**redacted**

Posted in wrong place
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Old September 22nd, 2012, 11:54 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Yeah, I'm confused. You've come out in opposition of voter id laws claiming they disenfranchise the poor and the ethnic minorities.
The cited author made this suggestion. I still think voter ID laws are a waste of public resources for an almost nonexistent problem. When voting one is required to confirm address, name and sign a declaration of the truth of this confirmation. It's a high risk low reward outcome to falsify the identity of a registered voter. One would have to be certain the real voter hasn't already voted, know the address, and forge a signature that is on file.

If we are going to have Voter ID, this appears to be an efficient means to standardize and not disenfranchise legit voters as the ID and supporting documents are free.

It's a much better means than the current legislation written by ALEX.

These voter suppression laws which were written by Right Wing Nut Paul Weyrich's American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC), who infamously said "our leverage in the elections quite candidly goes up as the voting populace goes down." is nothing less than the Republican Party's attempt to overthrow American Democracy, by lying about voter fraud.

American Legislative Exchange Council - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

ALEC's membership list and the origin of its model bills were not disclosed; BusinessWeek wrote that "part of ALEC's mission is to present industry-backed legislation as grass-roots work."[7] ALEC's role in drafting and distributing model legislation through its lawmaker members became public knowledge as the result of a Freedom of Information Act filing and a leak of ALEC's internal library of model legislation,[7] resulting in scrutiny and controversy over the group's role in the legislative process. The New York Times wrote that "special interests effectively turn ALECís lawmaker members into stealth lobbyists, providing them with talking points, signaling how they should vote, and collaborating on bills affecting hundreds of issues like school vouchers and tobacco taxes."[4] Progressive advocacy groups such as Common Cause questioned ALEC's non-profit status, alleging that the Council engaged in lobbying.[9] ALEC responded by denying that it engaged in lobbying, and arguing that liberal groups were attacking ALEC because "they don't have a comparable group that is as effective as ALEC in enacting policies into law."[9]
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Old September 23rd, 2012, 04:05 AM   #8 (permalink)
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I don't like the idea of the government having a database of everyones fingerprints. Sure, they say it would be optional, but how long would that last? Independent commissions usually sound like a better idea than they end up being, but pretty much anything would be better than the current system of having the highly partisan by definition Attorneys General pretending to run unbiased elections. The best thing they could do to improve elections would be to get rid of the ridiculous winner take all redistricting process where the party in power rewrites all the congressional districts for the state. That's what we have here in Ohio, may be different in other states.
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Old September 23rd, 2012, 04:15 AM   #9 (permalink)
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I don't like the idea of the government having a database of everyones fingerprints. ...
They already have it and neither do I, but fingerprints are on everything we touch, just contract out the database, with no oversight.
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Old September 23rd, 2012, 12:39 PM   #10 (permalink)
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The cited author made this suggestion. I still think voter ID laws are a waste of public resources for an almost nonexistent problem. When voting one is required to confirm address, name and sign a declaration of the truth of this confirmation. It's a high risk low reward outcome to falsify the identity of a registered voter. One would have to be certain the real voter hasn't already voted, know the address, and forge a signature that is on file.

If we are going to have Voter ID, this appears to be an efficient means to standardize and not disenfranchise legit voters as the ID and supporting documents are free.

It's a much better means than the current legislation written by ALEX.

These voter suppression laws which were written by Right Wing Nut Paul Weyrich's American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC), who infamously said "our leverage in the elections quite candidly goes up as the voting populace goes down." is nothing less than the Republican Party's attempt to overthrow American Democracy, by lying about voter fraud.

American Legislative Exchange Council - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

ALEC's membership list and the origin of its model bills were not disclosed; BusinessWeek wrote that "part of ALEC's mission is to present industry-backed legislation as grass-roots work."[7] ALEC's role in drafting and distributing model legislation through its lawmaker members became public knowledge as the result of a Freedom of Information Act filing and a leak of ALEC's internal library of model legislation,[7] resulting in scrutiny and controversy over the group's role in the legislative process. The New York Times wrote that "special interests effectively turn ALECís lawmaker members into stealth lobbyists, providing them with talking points, signaling how they should vote, and collaborating on bills affecting hundreds of issues like school vouchers and tobacco taxes."[4] Progressive advocacy groups such as Common Cause questioned ALEC's non-profit status, alleging that the Council engaged in lobbying.[9] ALEC responded by denying that it engaged in lobbying, and arguing that liberal groups were attacking ALEC because "they don't have a comparable group that is as effective as ALEC in enacting policies into law."[9]
I'm still confused as to why you support this on a national level and not on a state level. This law would presumably require the same kinds of ID that the state laws do (Social Security number, birth certificate, etc.....). The current laws provide IDs free of charge if you've got the above information. Only difference I see is this would be in a national database instead of a local database and, it seems, would gather more information than the state resolutions are gathering. I don't think anyone in the US would trust the feds with that kind of information.
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Old September 23rd, 2012, 11:24 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Avoid different state voter registration, ID flavors. Make it nonpartisan. Economies of scale, i.e. less expensive. Not all states make ID or supporting documents free. Voting is something all citizens regardless of state should have the same rights.

As you stated: "but in general we think of ourselves as residents of the US first and residents of XYZ state way, way, way down near the bottom." Dumb Republicans
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Old September 24th, 2012, 07:44 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Avoid different state voter registration, ID flavors. Make it nonpartisan. Economies of scale, i.e. less expensive. Not all states make ID or supporting documents free. Voting is something all citizens regardless of state should have the same rights.

As you stated: "but in general we think of ourselves as residents of the US first and residents of XYZ state way, way, way down near the bottom." Dumb Republicans
But they are free in current states. So I'm confused. Yes, you're going to pay to get a copy of a your birth certificate or social security card. That's the same everywhere. You're not going to pay for the actual voter ID. That's already the same everywhere. I'm not seeing the difference here other than this is the feds doing it instead of the states.
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Old September 24th, 2012, 11:31 PM   #13 (permalink)
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But they are free in current states. So I'm confused. Yes, you're going to pay to get a copy of a your birth certificate or social security card. That's the same everywhere. You're not going to pay for the actual voter ID. That's already the same everywhere. I'm not seeing the difference here other than this is the feds doing it instead of the states.
So the ID is not free when one has to spend to directly or indirectly obtain said ID.

This issue is better handled at the national level in a nonpartisan manner, as this is a national activity. The state level has demonstrated it is not handled in a nonpartisan manner.
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Old September 25th, 2012, 09:27 AM   #14 (permalink)
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So the ID is not free when one has to spend to directly or indirectly obtain said ID.

This issue is better handled at the national level in a nonpartisan manner, as this is a national activity. The state level has demonstrated it is not handled in a nonpartisan manner.
Hence my confusion. You oppose state voter id laws. Ok. Fair enough. Apply the exact same law at the national level and all of a sudden you are in favor of it. I don't understand.
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Old September 25th, 2012, 03:21 PM   #15 (permalink)
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You repeat yourself. Keep politicians hands off the election process
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Old September 25th, 2012, 05:52 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I repeat myself because you still haven't explained why something is horrible when applied at the state level and good when it's the exact same thing applied at the national level. I don't get it. It's like saying eating fast food is bad for you personally, but if everyone in the country is eating fast food, then it's ok.
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Old September 25th, 2012, 08:32 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Start from the OP. Reading comprehension may improve with practice.
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Old September 25th, 2012, 09:01 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Ok. Let's start at the beginning. You argue that state voter id laws are wrong because they disenfranchise voters. Ok. Fair enough argument. I can see where you are coming from. The exact same identical law applied to a national level does not disenfranchise people. Why not? Same ID requirements. Same regulations. But it's ok at the national level, but not the state level. Can you not see my confusion?
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Old September 26th, 2012, 01:11 PM   #19 (permalink)
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See previous answer:
Keep politicians hands off the election process

Keep focused on the title of the thread.

Voter impersonation is a almost nonexistent and Voter ID is a waste of public resources, but since a huge segment of populace believes this BS as sold to them by the propaganda front ALEX, who is writing the current Voter ID laws, lets make Voter ID nonpartisan, efficient, uniform and fair at the national level. Voting is a national activity, therefor address national issues at the appropriate level. If Voter ID issue is implemented as part of the other suggestions by the author of the article, then the net cost would be negligible.

Note: The ALEX voter scam laws, Voter ID is not free.
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Old September 26th, 2012, 01:21 PM   #20 (permalink)
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So, not free at the state level is bad. Not free at the national level is good? Still not computing. Whatever. I'm clearly not going to understand your complex reasoning on this subject. Voting isn't a national activity either just for the record. It's very much a local thing. Only every 4 years do we vote for a national office.
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Old September 26th, 2012, 03:18 PM   #21 (permalink)
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There are about 13,000 voting districts, with its own rules and regulations. Voting is a common activity we as Americans share. "Lets make Voter ID nonpartisan, efficient, uniform and fair at the national level. Voting is a national activity, therefor address national issues at the appropriate level."

ALEX and Poll Tax are bad. Voting is good. Not having an individual mandate to pay to vote is also good.
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Old September 26th, 2012, 06:13 PM   #22 (permalink)
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A poll tax is already un-constitutional. Not sure why we need to pass another law legislating that. But whatever.
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Old September 26th, 2012, 07:29 PM   #23 (permalink)
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because if they can pass a new law forbidding poll taxes then they can frame it that they had to do it because republicans were trying to create poll taxes..... its all about optics.... they cant win on truth and facts.... so they have to create non-issues to rescue the people from

reminds me of a local fireman years ago..... would go start fires in abandoned houses.... then goto the fire department and wait for the call to come in so he could be known as first to respond to fires
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Old September 26th, 2012, 09:28 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Truth and facts... The truth and facts are there is no problem with voter fraud in this country so all of these laws are a waste of time and money...unless there is some OTHER reason you want to make it more difficult for people to be able to vote. The whole thing would be a non-issue if republicans wouldn't have made it one.
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Old September 26th, 2012, 10:23 PM   #25 (permalink)
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... unless there is some OTHER reason you want to make it more difficult for people to be able to vote. The whole thing would be a non-issue if republicans wouldn't have made it one.
Gee, perhaps a Republican can give us a true reason.

Turzai: Voter ID Will Allow Romney to Win Pa. - YouTube
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Old September 26th, 2012, 10:41 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Still don't follow Republicans make it difficult to vote on a local level and it's bad. Identical law at a national level is good. But whatever.

Anyway, as I said earlier, voting is very much a local thing, not a national thing at all. We vote on one national office and that's once every four years. Even then we're actually voting for electors, not the actual President. Every other election every other year is purely local.
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Old September 26th, 2012, 10:55 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Still don't follow Republicans make it difficult to vote on a local level and it's bad. Identical law at a national level is good. But whatever.

Anyway, as I said earlier, voting is very much a local thing, not a national thing at all. We vote on one national office and that's once every four years. Even then we're actually voting for electors, not the actual President. Every other election every other year is purely local.
I think the point is, it's a waste of time either way, but if they're going to do it anyway, it should be the same for everybody and be free instead of a patchwork of different laws where it would be easier to sneak voter suppression by people if it's not in their backyard. ALL of the voter ID laws have zero to do with fraud anyway, and everyone knows it if they would just be honest with themselves.
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Old September 27th, 2012, 03:38 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Still don't follow Republicans make it difficult to vote on a local level and it's bad. Identical law at a national level is good. But whatever.

Anyway, as I said earlier, voting is very much a local thing, not a national thing at all. We vote on one national office and that's once every four years. Even then we're actually voting for electors, not the actual President. Every other election every other year is purely local.
Because it's not identical. ALEX controls the Kansas government.

As you have admitted, the people of Kansas are controlled by the insane, i.e. Koch mafia therefore, as a people, we must exterminate this infestation.
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Old September 27th, 2012, 07:45 AM   #29 (permalink)
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I think the point is, it's a waste of time either way, but if they're going to do it anyway, it should be the same for everybody and be free instead of a patchwork of different laws where it would be easier to sneak voter suppression by people if it's not in their backyard. ALL of the voter ID laws have zero to do with fraud anyway, and everyone knows it if they would just be honest with themselves.
That's a fair enough criticism, but it's not going to be free on a national level. Presumably you'll still need a birth certificate, social security card, etc.... to get an id. There are admin costs to getting those documents.
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Old September 27th, 2012, 12:49 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Reading comprehension difficulties ?

Keep politicians hands off the election process

"providing all voters a national voter card free of charge (including charges for secondary documents needed to verify identity)"
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Old September 27th, 2012, 01:31 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Reading comprehension difficulties ?

Keep politicians hands off the election process

"providing all voters a national voter card free of charge (including charges for secondary documents needed to verify identity)"
I saw that, but didn't think you could seriously ask for something so ridiculous. You might as well ask for unicorns crapping rainbows and peeing pixie dust while you're at it. It costs money/manpower to store those records and it costs money/manpower to retrieve them. It's not unreasonable at all to charge a fee for those services.
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Old September 27th, 2012, 01:57 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Requiring voter ID beyond what is required for registration is ridiculous. Poll tax is unreasonable and illegal. You ever heard of imaging, digital storage ? How about the internet ? I hear there are jobs associated with this thing called the internet.

Do you want me to put you in contact with someone who knows something about moving data from point A to B ?
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Old September 27th, 2012, 05:14 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Requiring voter ID beyond what is required for registration is ridiculous. Poll tax is unreasonable and illegal. You ever heard of imaging, digital storage ? How about the internet ? I hear there are jobs associated with this thing called the internet.

Do you want me to put you in contact with someone who knows something about moving data from point A to B ?
You know a way to digitize a bunch of paper records at no cost and with no cost to maintain them and they can be retrieved at no cost as well? What are you doing here? You could be a bajillionaire by now.
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Old September 27th, 2012, 06:12 PM   #34 (permalink)
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A lot less expensive than maintaining paper records. Economies of scale would dictate the government would be the most efficient provider.
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Old September 27th, 2012, 07:04 PM   #35 (permalink)
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A lot less expensive than maintaining paper records. Economies of scale would dictate the government would be the most efficient provider.
I can't think of anything the feds do efficiently.
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Old September 27th, 2012, 11:05 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Providing cheap natural gas for one.

Renewable Energy Must Look to Natural Gas for Guidance

Natural gas is just the latest in a long history of the government supporting and investing in breakthrough technologies. Sustained federal government support since the 1970s has proven essential to the industry being able to tap into shale gas with new drilling techniques and technologies. The Breakthrough Institute, a non-partisan think tank, released a study on this very subject last year detailing how decades of government investments in R&D, tax credits, and public-private partnerships made todayís natural gas boom possible. The Associated Press finally picked up the story this week and observes that the Department of Energy invested roughly $137 million in gas research over three decades and that the federal tax credit for drillers constituted $10 billion between 1980 and 2002.
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Old September 28th, 2012, 01:43 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Providing cheap natural gas for one.

Renewable Energy Must Look to Natural Gas for Guidance
Natural gas is bad.
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Old September 28th, 2012, 02:29 AM   #38 (permalink)
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I'm against "fracking" and tax credits for drillers. What happened to the precious "private sector" the Republicans are always going on and on about? Seems like these big businesses are never too proud to come out of the woodwork with their hands out for corporate welfare, then they turn around and spend millions on political campaigns. The same people raise holy hell if the government spends money trying to develop clean energy.
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Old September 28th, 2012, 03:57 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Tax subsidies tied to political "contributions" is what the American political system is all about. I just wish our political prostitutes weren't such cheap coin baggers, but then again, that's what we all have become, so I guess they just reflect their constituents.
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Old September 28th, 2012, 06:09 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Tax subsidies tied to political "contributions" is what the American political system is all about. I just wish our political prostitutes weren't such cheap coin baggers, but then again, that's what we all have become, so I guess they just reflect their constituents.
Reminds me of that old saying from the early computer days: Garbage In-Garbage Out.
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Old September 28th, 2012, 04:22 PM   #41 (permalink)
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I'm against "fracking" and tax credits for drillers. What happened to the precious "private sector" the Republicans are always going on and on about? Seems like these big businesses are never too proud to come out of the woodwork with their hands out for corporate welfare, then they turn around and spend millions on political campaigns. The same people raise holy hell if the government spends money trying to develop clean energy.
Just happened to come across an article that supports your position. Just a snippet on how their objectives are achieved.

CMD Special Report: ALEC's (Corporate) Love Affair with Fracking | PR Watch

"Through ALEC, corporate lobbyists have an equal vote with state legislators on ALEC "model" bills, that are pushed in states across the nation. Often the bills were drafted by the corporate lobbyists before being approved by ALEC "task forces." ALEC's legislative agenda includes efforts to bar taxes on windfall profits of energy companies and numerous bills that would make it harder to regulate carbon or address global climate changes, as well as bills that would make it harder to hold these and other companies accountable when Americans are killed or injured as a result of a corporation's product or practices in regulated industries."
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Old September 28th, 2012, 11:23 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Just happened to come across an article that supports your position. Just a snippet on how their objectives are achieved.

CMD Special Report: ALEC's (Corporate) Love Affair with Fracking | PR Watch

"Through ALEC, corporate lobbyists have an equal vote with state legislators on ALEC "model" bills, that are pushed in states across the nation. Often the bills were drafted by the corporate lobbyists before being approved by ALEC "task forces." ALEC's legislative agenda includes efforts to bar taxes on windfall profits of energy companies and numerous bills that would make it harder to regulate carbon or address global climate changes, as well as bills that would make it harder to hold these and other companies accountable when Americans are killed or injured as a result of a corporation's product or practices in regulated industries."
Lobbying in this country is totally out of hand. What a cesspool of blatant corruption.
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Old September 29th, 2012, 03:09 AM   #43 (permalink)
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It's worse than you can imagine. Why have lobbyists when one can have our elected politicians be the lobbyist. Just cut out the middleman.

Domestic Propaganda
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Old September 29th, 2012, 12:40 PM   #44 (permalink)
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I don't like the idea of the government having a database of everyones fingerprints.
Your prints will perhaps be stored at our brand new NSA data center right here in Utah. I'll watch out and make sure your prints are safe.

Why is it we will run scared if the government asks us for private info yet we will freely give it out to CC companies or Toaster registration forms? My guess is we want a well protected toaster and we want to be able to spend money we cannot afford to spend, so whatever principals we pretend to have are set aside so we can get what we want.

Seems to me if we are being fair, we would never agree to give Visa our SSN, date of birth, employment info and the like. But we give up our privacy just to get that next CC and a little more long term debt.
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Old September 29th, 2012, 12:53 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Your prints will perhaps be stored at our brand new NSA data center right here in Utah. I'll watch out and make sure your prints are safe.

Why is it we will run scared if the government asks us for private info yet we will freely give it out to CC companies or Toaster registration forms? My guess is we want a well protected toaster and we want to be able to spend money we cannot afford to spend, so whatever principals we pretend to have are set aside so we can get what we want.

Seems to me if we are being fair, we would never agree to give Visa our SSN, date of birth, employment info and the like. But we give up our privacy just to get that next CC and a little more long term debt.
We trust companies far more than we trust governments. Companies at least have some motivation to keep our data safe. If they leak it/lose it there are economic consequences and they could end up out of business. Not so much with the feds.
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Old September 29th, 2012, 12:58 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Lobbying in this country is totally out of hand. What a cesspool of blatant corruption.
A favorite old boss use to say: "do not come to me with a problem unless you also have a solution." So let me ask you, how would you change things? We cannot get rid of them and we should not get rid of them all.

Consider: the ARRL has lobbyists and they help our hobby which in turn helps all of us. Among other things, they (try to) protect our band assignments so they are not allocated to other things. Amateurs do more good with the frequencies than HBO or some cell company.

Many lobbyists do good works but their efforts are not often reported. Not like the big oil or tobacco company lobbyists that are always evil and always perverting the system and always bashed in the press.

So how would you change the system to eliminate the "bad" lobbyists and keep the good ones? Perhaps you should not even try because you will run up against the lobbyists hired by lobbyists to protect lobbyists.

One problem is lobbying is constitutionally protected. Any activity protected by the constitution is very hard to eliminate. A very good thing indeed.

Because they have so much power, you had better have their permission before you try to make substantial changes in the system because they can likely stop you before you begin.
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Old September 29th, 2012, 01:24 PM   #47 (permalink)
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We trust companies far more than we trust governments. Companies at least have some motivation to keep our data safe. If they leak it/lose it there are economic consequences and they could end up out of business. Not so much with the feds.
Oh come on. The federal government has a responsibility to the people, unlike private companies.
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Old September 29th, 2012, 01:27 PM   #48 (permalink)
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We trust companies far more than we trust governments. Companies at least have some motivation to keep our data safe. If they leak it/lose it there are economic consequences and they could end up out of business. Not so much with the feds.
Companies only motive is to extract as much wealth as possible from your data. If they misuse it and get caught, oh well, the worst that can happen is they just change the name on the storefront and continue on. If government officials get caught, much more publicity, hearings and possible jail time.
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Old September 29th, 2012, 01:31 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Oh come on. The federal government has a responsibility to the people, unlike private companies.
Ah, you poor deluded person. No one holds the feds responsible. People in the US have a deep seated mistrust of the feds and it's well founded IMO.
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Old September 29th, 2012, 01:38 PM   #50 (permalink)
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... So how would you change the system to eliminate the "bad" lobbyists and keep the good ones? Perhaps you should not even try because you will run up against the lobbyists hired by lobbyists to protect lobbyists. ...
The solution is already in place, one must be a registered lobbyist, it's just ALEC members have floated that law and now it's time to pay the piper.

System is not perfect, but just because all white collar criminals are not caught should we not try to catch them ?
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