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Old December 2nd, 2012, 05:28 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Smile Discipline vs Child Abuse

Whats goin on guys? Been gone for a minute and I'd like to start a topic for discussion, and hopefully not shoot myself in the foot in the process.

Okay, so... I don't wanna start a war here but I must ask my fellow community this question:

Do you believe there is a difference in Discipline (in the context of a major offence, issuing a few swats on the butt and a lecture) and Child Abuse (striking /hitting a child on any part of the body with the intent to inflict harm.)

Now let that stew as I tell you why/how this got brought up.

I have a Facebook page (GASP!) and it just so happens the feed on the right hand side of the page, the one that updates every 15 seconds or so, I see one of my friends posted a link as a comment to a picture. Here's the Picture:
Abuse vs Discipline.jpg

And here is the link: https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/184894.pdf

So after seeing the picture and reading the short PDF article, I was inclined to say something about that.

Quote:
I think there's a difference in Discipline (which is what this pic suggests) and child abuse.

His response:

Quote:
Discipline is helping a kid see which types of behaviors pay off. Physically hitting a child is abuse. It's a way trashy, ignorant people relieve their own frustrations. The best leaders are the ones who help people reach higher levels of morality and motivation through positive activities. The worst ones are those who belittle and, at very worst, physically harm others. Someone above mentioned fear. We don't need fear to be better people. Fear is what the terrorists and bullies use.
My Response:

Quote:
I can agree with most of what your saying, but lemme tell ya how I was raised... If I did something small but yet disrespectful, I was disciplined by lecture. But if I did something outlandish and/or harmful and way outta line for what my dad believed in. you best believe I got his belt to my hind end. Now, would you consider me a criminal? Am I what your page you shared describes as a violent person? I think not, because why? Cuz I don't wanna get my butt whipped! Maybe not by my dad, but by the Justice System this time. I have a son and I discipline him if needed, knowing the line between Discipline and Abuse is something maybe these parents of the cases that were studied in the article, didn't know the difference of. I firmly believe it is up to the parents to teach their child respect and courtesy, and I think nowadays some parents are too soft.
His retort:

Quote:
Violence is barbaric and counter productive. Anyone interviewed the three kids pictured here to see if they were spanked as kids? Anyone looked at data about kids who were spanked versus not spanked as kids? No. You just think hitting children changes their behavior for the better. It's no surprise we're the species that produced the holocaust, Iran, North Korea, Bin Laden, the inquisition, 9/11, etc etc etc. I reiterate: Violence is barbaric and counter productive.
At this point, its obvious he's not really arguing my statements, just kinda repeating his views.

My response:

Quote:
I'm not saying go on a rampage, lol. But do you mean to tell me that when your 15 year old son steals your car one night to go out joyriding with friends, and you find out about it... are you going to give him a few swats on the butt and a long discussion about stealing/lying and the implications of what could of happened if he would'a wrecked. Or 10 minutes of his nose in the corner???
His response:

Quote:
You guys realize in addition to "spare the rod, spoil the child", the old testament prescribes the stoning to death of people for many, sometimes imaginary, crimes along with many other barbaric acts one would expect to be written at that time right?
That pretty much ended the discussion between he and I.
I have about 200+ friends on my friends list and I gladly shared this picture on my timeline with one a word title "Agreed."

Thus far, those who have responded/liked the picture were also in agreements with me.
So, maybe with a bigger audience than just my Facebook friends, I ask you fellow users and abusers of Android, what is your take on the picture?
How do you feel about a good swat on the butt and a lecture vs sitting in a corner for 10 minutes as Discipline?

Please be open and respect every ones own individual opinions.
This is meant to discuss and think, not yell and hate.

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Old December 2nd, 2012, 05:38 PM   #2 (permalink)
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great discussion. I feel that the few times I got hit definitely shocked me enough to make me behave. I would never use a spoon, belt or something but pretty much every kid deserves a smack to keep them in lines sometimes.
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Old December 2nd, 2012, 05:40 PM   #3 (permalink)
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There is true violence that kids do need protection from - but when a kid can call Child Protective Services and try to get parents busted since they won't or can't get him an Ipad, then something is totally wrong with values.

We got swatted, told no if we asked for something we didn't deserve or parents couldn't afford and most of our generation are still here and productive. We haven't turned into psychopaths since we were disciplined.

Kids need to learn "You can't always get what you want" and you are not "entitled" to some of it, either.

Some don't need to spank. I had a neighbor who could quell a riot just by saying "Now, people."
She was the exception rather than the rule.
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Old December 2nd, 2012, 05:48 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I agree! Ya know sometimes I watch my friends use what I call "soft reinforcement" and I can sit there and constantly watch it blow up in their face every time.

It's not so much striking fear into your child its striking respect. So they know when you say something, there could be consequences if they do not respect what you say and mind you.

I would never slap or hit a child, but a few swats on the bottom, sometimes, is needed.
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Old December 2nd, 2012, 05:48 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Me and my siblings all got spanked lol.
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Old December 2nd, 2012, 05:50 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zuben el genub View Post
There is true violence that kids do need protection from - but when a kid can call Child Protective Services and try to get parents busted since they won't or can't get him an Ipad, then something is totally wrong with values.

We got swatted, told no if we asked for something we didn't deserve or parents couldn't afford and most of our generation are still here and productive. We haven't turned into psychopaths since we were disciplined.

Kids need to learn "You can't always get what you want" and you are not "entitled" to some of it, either.

Some don't need to spank. I had a neighbor who could quell a riot just by saying "Now, people."
She was the exception rather than the rule.
Man, if my kid did that, I'd happily let child services have him. Let him stew and panic for a while lol
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Old December 2nd, 2012, 05:56 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyndslash View Post
Man, if my kid did that, I'd happily let child services have him. Let him stew and panic for a while lol
LOL!!! Right! U wanna call em, go right ahead... you'll regret it soon.
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Old December 2nd, 2012, 05:58 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by DeepEmissions View Post
LOL!!! Right! U wanna call em, go right ahead... you'll regret it soon.
Not me. My kid. Read my post again

It's all a hypothetical situation though. I'm not sure I want to have kids in this day and age. My cousin is pretty good at discipline though. He just taps his belt and his kid behaves

Still, I'm in an Asian country where discipline is looked favorably upon
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Old December 2nd, 2012, 06:02 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyndslash View Post
Not me. My kid. Read my post again

It's all a hypothetical situation though. I'm not sure I want to have kids in this day and age. My cousin is pretty good at discipline though. He just taps his belt and his kid behaves

Still, I'm in an Asian country where discipline is looked favorably upon


Sorry I meant that in the context of you saying that to your child "you wanna call em, go ahead."
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Old December 2nd, 2012, 06:03 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I was raised to understand that there were consequences (whoopins) to be paid if I got too far out of line. Sometimes a lecture works, other times a spanking is needed. Kids need to learn right from wrong and sometimes a lecture doesn't convey how wrong they were. I'm glad for the spankings as it kept me from receiving adult consequences such as jail.
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Old December 2nd, 2012, 06:06 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Sorry I meant that in the context of you saying that to your child "you wanna call em, go ahead."
I think I was the one who misread
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Old December 2nd, 2012, 06:07 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
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I think I was the one who misread
LOL no problem, I should of been more clear.
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Old December 2nd, 2012, 06:10 PM   #13 (permalink)
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@pakrat57
I was raised the same way, people call it old school and too harsh, well I'm sorry but it worked for me, so I will raise my child the same way.

Yea I raised a little hell back in the day, but I quickly realized that the spankings I got were far outweighed by the punishment I could receive as an adult.
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Old December 2nd, 2012, 06:15 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I got spanked as a kid, definitely far fewer times than I deserved. But, with that punishment came direction from my parents about obedience and respect for others, elders and the like, something lacking in our society now. Commercials on Television and radio make the parents / male figures out to be completed idiots and the children out to be the genius'. God help us when they rule the world...
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Old December 2nd, 2012, 06:29 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by efin View Post
I got spanked as a kid, definitely far fewer times than I deserved. But, with that punishment came direction from my parents about obedience and respect for others, elders and the like, something lacking in our society now. Commercials on Television and radio make the parents / male figures out to be completed idiots and the children out to be the genius'. God help us when they rule the world...
that's true. i absolutely hated it when my parents spanked me (of course, lol), but seeing the kids now and how i could have turned out like them...
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Old December 2nd, 2012, 09:17 PM   #16 (permalink)
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This is such a hot issue, because who decides what is the right amount of spanking/hitting? Quite often, the problem comes from the parents (who have issues of their own, sometimes passed on by their parents) who don't recognize where to draw the line on what they call punishment. It seems appropriate to them at the time, in their anger, but quite often is really abusive behavior, when looked at by someone objectively.
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Old December 3rd, 2012, 01:25 AM   #17 (permalink)
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I was in a long term relationship with a nice girl that did not discipline her children, long story there.

Her kindergarten son ran across the room and punched me in anger (after many other incidents) and she watched, did nothing.

I lifted the child to my face and explained the situation to him (she watched), from that point on he had respect for me and was my constant companion.


Some times a child needs to be 'woken up' and it doesn't necessarily take violence.
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Old December 3rd, 2012, 11:33 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Discipline and child abuse are interchangeable these days.

If you are an old fart like me, a swat across the arse; a spanking, we once called it was not child abuse. These days, even touching a child is abuse as far as some people are concerned.

Bad kids were once punished. Now you cannot swat a kid for fear of being hauled first to jail, then to court.
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Old December 3rd, 2012, 11:36 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevincott View Post
Some times a child needs to be 'woken up' and it doesn't necessarily take violence.
You're right, I always started with a lecture first. If that didn't work then came the spankings. Luckily for me my son hated my lectures so bad that although he got spanked, it was rare .
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Old December 3rd, 2012, 08:55 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Let me tell you all something.
The Mrs & myself lost our kids for almost a year because of whipping ones ass when he got out of line. But long story short, we have told those people that when our children get too far out, we will whoop that ass again because they are OUR children, and we will. CPS does not scare me, nor will they tell me how to raise my children, or when/how I punish them. They put not one bite of food on our table, paid one light bill, and surely has not taken one of them to the doctor when they needed it it. They attended no school meeting, stayed up all night when one was afraid of the dark or had a nightmare, or even said I love you to any of them. We have raised them, cared for them and loved them every day, and for them to think they was gonna tell us anything when it came to them is way out in left field. We fought tooth & nail to get them back, and will do it again if needed.
I am fighting a war between them and the streets. If I lose, then the streets will win them, and THAT IS NOT AN OPTION. The Streets will not claim my children, and I will fight whoever gets in my way, with words, pen & paper, or anything else necessary to keep them safe. We are raising boys to be responsible men. And if that means I have to tear off in that ass sometimes, it is what it is..
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Old December 3rd, 2012, 10:13 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Each kid is different and each kid will require different punishments to understand. There is a line between punishment and child abuse. The law doesn't see it that way. Its all child abuse. I was spanked a handful of times. I will spank when necessary.
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Old December 4th, 2012, 12:23 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by efin View Post
I got spanked as a kid, definitely far fewer times than I deserved. But, with that punishment came direction from my parents about obedience and respect for others, elders and the like, something lacking in our society now. Commercials on Television and radio make the parents / male figures out to be completed idiots and the children out to be the genius'. God help us when they rule the world...
They already do. Haven't you seen them freaking out on the floor at the grocery store? One of Satan's best weapons now is the whole "P.C" movement. Makes me puke.
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Old December 4th, 2012, 08:32 AM   #23 (permalink)
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I'm surprised this hasn't been moved to politics & current affairs yet.

I'm not against spanking, I had a few and never thought twice about it, but who decides how much is too much? You can say "the parents do", but that leaves a lot of kids who really are abused to fend for themselves. I don't know the answer, just raising another point of view.
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Old December 4th, 2012, 09:29 AM   #24 (permalink)
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I would agree, I think the Politics And Current Affairs Forum may be more suitable. Thread moved.


Moving forward, I'd also like to ask everyone to use their best judgement and keep things within site rules. Clearly this is a subject where strong opinions are likely. Thanks everyone.
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Old December 4th, 2012, 11:57 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Some parents need to be beat half to death and few need the full Monty. Some parents must be sterilized or neutered, too.

Some kids need their behind paddled until they blister.

Other parents need praise and respect for raising respectful and decent kids and some kids need to be sent to the iron mines for ten years of back breaking labor and only gruel for lunch.

All I know is you dam kids keep the hell off of my lawn. Dam whippersnappers . . . I tell you what.

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Old December 4th, 2012, 12:10 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobretti View Post
One of Satan's best weapons now is the whole "P.C" movement. Makes me puke.
Say . . . what about threatening to stop paying your son or daughter's cell bill? Perhaps replace their Android powered iPhone Razor S3 X Note running Baked Apple or whatever the latest OS happens to be, with a blister packed AT&T Go-Phone from the checkout isle at Wally Mart?

These days, a kid would trade one of their eyes for a cell and a pre-paid phone that cannot Tweet, SMS or FaceBook would be humiliating.

Perhaps take away the car keys and hand the little monster a week's worth of bus tokens?

So your kid has no phone and must take public transportation. What a catastrophe; a few events that to the child makes them think their life is over.

Announce a 'minutes for grades' program. "You will receive three hours of phone time every time you earn a C; four hours for a B; and a full week for an A. An A+ gets you almost a month."

"And I'll be testing you, so no cheating. If you cheat, you will receive two empty tin cans and some string." And some good walking shoes. Better learn to read a paper map.
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Old December 4th, 2012, 06:35 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Maxey View Post
Say . . . what about threatening to stop paying your son or daughter's cell bill? Perhaps replace their Android powered iPhone Razor S3 X Note running Baked Apple or whatever the latest OS happens to be, with a blister packed AT&T Go-Phone from the checkout isle at Wally Mart?

These days, a kid would trade one of their eyes for a cell and a pre-paid phone that cannot Tweet, SMS or FaceBook would be humiliating.

Perhaps take away the car keys and hand the little monster a week's worth of bus tokens?

So your kid has no phone and must take public transportation. What a catastrophe; a few events that to the child makes them think their life is over.

Announce a 'minutes for grades' program. "You will receive three hours of phone time every time you earn a C; four hours for a B; and a full week for an A. An A+ gets you almost a month."

"And I'll be testing you, so no cheating. If you cheat, you will receive two empty tin cans and some string." And some good walking shows. Better learn to read a paper map.
I can see that, and I have used their cells and xbox as tools, but only a small fraction.
I'm 55,and that makes me old school. My children do as their told because (a) I said so. And (b) because it's the right thing to do.
I'm not about to make a habit of bargaining with my children, nor am I about to reward them for doing the right thing every time. Doing right is its own reward. I don't get as much as a pat on my back at work when I do right. My reward is that paycheck at the end of the week. That's life. You'll hear loads when you do wrong, but hardly a whisper when you do right. I'm simply preparing them for becoming adults, responsible grown men. Sometimes, people ask me what my contribution to society is. I tell them, raising boys to be strong & responsible men. THAT is what I give the world.
And as far as the ass whoopings go, to this day, I refrain from doing some things because I'm afraid my father, who died in 1975, will rise up and kick my ass.

Spare the rod, people, and you'll spoil the child.
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Old December 4th, 2012, 11:10 PM   #28 (permalink)
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@iowabowtech Thank you for the move, I was contemplating what the correct option would be...

Hey, at least this didnt start in an "...all things root" thread LOL
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Old December 16th, 2012, 09:23 AM   #29 (permalink)
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They already do. Haven't you seen them freaking out on the floor at the grocery store? One of Satan's best weapons now is the whole "P.C" movement. Makes me puke.
PC stands for "politically corrupt" or "parentally challenged", I agree and "Mr Red" is laughing it up at all the goofballs he has trained... God help us.
There are a few mothers out there I'd like to paddle as well, typically the ones that are going about with what they are doing while little Johnny and Suzie are causing holy hell, and momma doesn't have a care...
(of course some hot mommas need a paddling as well, but that's another subject on another forum....
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Old December 26th, 2012, 05:12 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I was spanked as a kid with all sorts of tools, but my parents never spanked me to the point where I'm bruised, but it was enough to scare the shit out of me and to not do wrong again. Well, ok it took them a few tries to make sure I don't make certain mistakes again. I haven't decided if I will spank my own kids, but if I do, I'll be sure to do it like my parents did for me. I'm still here and making an ok living and not doing harm to society so spanking kids for disciplined worked for me.
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Old December 27th, 2012, 01:29 PM   #31 (permalink)
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I was spanked as a kid with all sorts of tools, but my parents never spanked me to the point where I'm bruised, but it was enough to scare the shit out of me and to not do wrong again. Well, ok it took them a few tries to make sure I don't make certain mistakes again. I haven't decided if I will spank my own kids, but if I do, I'll be sure to do it like my parents did for me. I'm still here and making an ok living and not doing harm to society so spanking kids for disciplined worked for me.
The thing is, it still is likely to have had a negative effect.
People dont want to believe this of course, its the same with things like circumcision, people say that their life is fine but in reality there was harm done.
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Old December 28th, 2012, 10:49 AM   #32 (permalink)
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I was raised and very quickly did I learn from right and wrong.. And it wasn't because I was told to sit in a corner for 30 minutes with out talking... Its because I quickly learned that if I did something I knew i wasn't supposed to do I would be disciplined, and that is associated with pain. I never broke a law growing up, never smoked, never stole, never drank underage.
Is there a line, yes there is. There is such thing as child abuse, but it is not the same as disciplining your child by spanking them for doing wrong. Child abuse is much deeper than a spanking.
When I bring a child into the world, I intend on raising it just as I was, and it won't be child abuse.
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Old December 28th, 2012, 06:38 PM   #33 (permalink)
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They already do. Haven't you seen them freaking out on the floor at the grocery store? One of Satan's best weapons now is the whole "P.C" movement. Makes me puke.
Yup.

I see them in the grocery, the movie theater and Denny's. I see them at the butcher and the fish monger and the roadside fruit stand.

I see them running rampant in the malls, carrying on so on the bus and I've had a few touch my hair as they hang over the train seat and pester me to tears. I see them screaming their way down the street and I see them in my nightmares.

They are all over the place; they remind me of the Bible. Usually, accompanied by clueless parents.

I am reminded of Revelation 9:3-10:

"Then from the smoke came children on the earth, and they were given power like the power of scorpions of the earth. They were told not to bother the people of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. They were allowed to torment them for five months, but not to kill them, and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings someone. And in those days people will seek death and will not find it. They will long to die, but death will flee from them. In appearance the children were like horses prepared for battle: on their heads were what looked like crowns of gold; their faces were like human faces, ..."

However . . .

Is it really worse today than in times gone by?

I was quite the effervescent rascal in my day and I am sure I brought shame to my parents on more than a few occasions. And I do think the occasional non-familial adult have asked me to be quiet. I do know a smack on the arse set me on the straight and narrow path.

These days, ask a parent to control their obnoxious children can create problems as well.

Not sure if it is more people and younger parents or if we just think it is worse. Perhaps it is this: I am just to old and everything--as you know--bothers old people. I think with every passing decade, I grow increasingly intolerant. But that is my cross to carry 'till the end quietly arrives.

Regardless, I am a big proponent of child sized cages. On the other hand, a few parent sized cages are likely needed as well. Paint them in festive colors and add a dollar bill changer. The only problem is some parents will forget to claim their kids. Either legitimately or on purpose.
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Old December 28th, 2012, 06:52 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Old December 28th, 2012, 06:56 PM   #35 (permalink)
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I was raised and very quickly did I learn from right and wrong.
I was raised the same way. A swat or as we called it, a spanking was all that was usually needed. It was never child abuse. At least not until the PC police arrived and determined that everything was child abuse.

God help us if we are called "child abusers" in court or by the Child Protective Services folks.

Most parents in my day were loving parents and spanking was tolerated. Parents knew where to draw the line. When a parent was convicted of child abuse, there was a bloody good reason for it. Abusers were shunned and strongly punished; usually by jurors and judges who had no problem spanking their kids.

Well, usually. I also remember the wide leather belt and cutting a switch. I feared those words: "just wait until your father gets home." Even the warnings that Santa will bring you a lump of coal was enough to make us eat our vegetables, put away our toys and get good grades.

I think before you are charged or accused, your accusers must be forced to endure the wrath of your little ones for two weeks.

I am reminded of Revelations 9:30-10:

"Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth, and they were given power like the power of scorpions of the earth. They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. They were allowed to torment them for five months, but not to kill them, and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings someone. And in those days people will seek death and will not find it. They will long to die, but death will flee from them. In appearance the locusts were like horses prepared for battle: on their heads were what looked like crowns of gold; their faces were like human faces, ..."

Zager and Evans had it right: "In the year 6565 You won't need no husband, won't need no wife. You'll pick your son, pick your daughter too, From the bottom of a long glass tube"

I think we should be able to order custom kids. Pre-educated and if you can afford it, trained to act civil. Perhaps even rooted.
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Old December 28th, 2012, 07:10 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Let me tell you all something.
The Mrs & myself lost our kids for almost a year because of whipping ones ass when he got out of line. But long story short, we have told those people that when our children get too far out, we will whoop that ass again because they are OUR children, and we will. CPS does not scare me, nor will they tell me how to raise my children, or when/how I punish them.
Part of the problem is this: take one over protective and ever so evil CPS worker hell bent on proving you are a child abuser and you can be deep in it before you notice all that brown stuff piling up on the soles of your feet.

You have read about the abuses and to be fair, I do not want to paint them all with the same dirty brush. So I'll simply say, SOME CPS workers have, in the past, caused parents grief.

Give a bad CPS worker custody of your child for a few hours, and he or she can prove you abused your kid. They can make your youngster say you did something bad because the kid is scared and eventually, he or she will tell the investigators what they want to hear. Then you are likely screwed.

Do these things happen all the time? No. I am not sure how many parents are charged or how many kids are taken away. I'll say it does happen and I'll say if you ever became the subject of a CPS "investigation," find a good lawyer because you will need one.

I do not fear them but I do not have kids. I just know if you tick off the investigator, his or her mission in life can be to get you and I suspect the needs of your children take a back seat to the investigation as well as your kid.

So do not fear them, just understand if they take an interest in your family, you darn well better take it seriously.
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