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Old December 20th, 2012, 09:20 PM   #101 (permalink)
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I'm tired of the reporters walking down the street and asking everybody the same asinine questions-"where were you when it happened?", "how does it make you feel?", "did you ever think this could happen here?" Ugh. On the other hand, some of the parents really want to talk about their children. A couple have invited Anderson Cooper into their homes to talk about their kids, and it was extremely moving. I do think it's enough with the 24/7 coverage. If they have something new to report, fine. Otherwise give it a rest.

I think some of the people who come to the ridiculous teddy bear monument are there just to try to get on TV. Sad thing about our reality show/fame whore culture.

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Old December 21st, 2012, 08:42 AM   #102 (permalink)
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This is also the problem:

Dozens of Mich. schools close amid threats, rumors - Yahoo! News

Fla. teen arrested for threat to 'shoot everyone' - Yahoo! News

We had copycats after Aurora. The more coverage of the violence and less of the sorrow isn't helping.
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Old December 21st, 2012, 01:05 PM   #103 (permalink)
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Bullet proof backpacks? Fortress schools? Rifle slinging teachers? Armed guards posted where kids play?

Way to give your kids some sort of PTSD on par with Gazan kids.
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Old December 21st, 2012, 01:31 PM   #104 (permalink)
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I don't agree with the coverage that there is with this. I wish the news would just have said their views on it for a couple of days and then let the people care for one another with out having to fear turning on the news, or going to a website that might remind them of the horrible event that happened.

I think it is an outrage with what that Westboro is doing, and I have seen quite a few postings on other sites of the leaders personal address and home phone and email ect.. and messages saying send this man the kinkiest dirtiest explicit material. What they do is just wrong too.

Truth is the news media will continue publishing and producing these stories as long as they can, they will milk it for all its worth. They say they care about the families affected, but they don't, they know that they will gain revenue from curious onlookers, also to affect the swing on gun control. If you watch any news other than fox i think it is, they will first do their talks about gun control and why it needs to be "better" and then after that, they will do funeral coverage of the victims. This appears to me a way to persuade more people into thinking guns are the problem.

If a reporter were to come up to me I would tell them
"You know what I think of this whole situation? I think that everyone knows what happened. Lets leave it at that, lets let the victims' friends and family grieve and allow them the personal space they are lacking. News media has reported enough on this topic.."
at least something along those lines

I wish they would see that they are doing more harm than good for the families
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Old December 21st, 2012, 04:22 PM   #105 (permalink)
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they could always go back to reporting on the soldiers being killed every day in Iraq and Afghanistan....... of course most Americans probably dont realize we still have soldiers fighting overseas..... since the day Bush left office the media stopped reporting on it
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Old December 21st, 2012, 04:46 PM   #106 (permalink)
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Yea the media is just plain worthless nowadays along with the crime investigators. In all seriousness who I am the world cares how the children died, how many times they got shot, what gun killed them, it's all useless irrelevant facts and a waste of time.
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Old December 21st, 2012, 05:42 PM   #107 (permalink)
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they could always go back to reporting on the soldiers being killed every day in Iraq and Afghanistan....... of course most Americans probably dont realize we still have soldiers fighting overseas..... since the day Bush left office the media stopped reporting on it
The PBS newshour is still reporting. They do it in total silence and respect as pictures become available.

They also did a roll call for the children and adults in Newtown. Appropriate backgrounds for kids' photos, but also in silence and respect.
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Old December 21st, 2012, 05:46 PM   #108 (permalink)
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We've had another:

While the NRA Was on TV Talking About the Need for More Guns Some Guy Was Walking Up and Down a Road in Pennsylvania Shooting People [UPDATE]

Pass the irony.
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Old December 21st, 2012, 11:18 PM   #109 (permalink)
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the irony being how strict pennsylvania is on guns and heres a guy with a gun? or the irony being that if they werent so very strict that guy would have been stopped within 5 mins?
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Old December 22nd, 2012, 01:52 AM   #110 (permalink)
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the irony being how strict pennsylvania is on guns and heres a guy with a gun? or the irony being that if they werent so very strict that guy would have been stopped within 5 mins?
No one ever mentions that if it weren't for the guns in the hands of law enforcement we would have to wait until the guy ran out of ammo. Depending on how much ammo, it would be a long wait with an excessive amount of casualties.

And unfortunately, Not enough people own guns at the moment to scare any of these clowns anyway.
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Old December 22nd, 2012, 05:49 AM   #111 (permalink)
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How would more people with guns scare these shooters when the vast majority of them don't plan on surviving anyway? Most of them kill themselves or commit suicide by cop. Kind of hard to scare somebody who already plans on dying.
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Old December 22nd, 2012, 06:51 AM   #112 (permalink)
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What's to stop someone from buying a gun legally outside a state? Since private sales are not vetted?

You own a gun and move? We have a pistol that hasn't seen any use in over 30 years. If we moved, it would get tossed in a box (broken down and unloaded) and go with us. It might never be unpacked. Nobody would ask us if we have weapons on buying a house in another state.

Or the sale of the contents of a forfeited storage unit. The sale of said contents is legal, and it would be up to the buyer to declare a weapon if one was in a box somewhere.
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Old December 22nd, 2012, 09:48 AM   #113 (permalink)
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If you have a half hour to "waste" give this a watch.

It has some strong language so it is nsfw





This is the other side of gun control, you have probably heard plenty thats all for gun control and feeding you reasons why they say we need it. Here is another perspective of it.

They also talk about the violent over throw of the US government, but their main point is what they think of gun control.

I think they make some good points
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Old December 22nd, 2012, 02:07 PM   #114 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by pbf98 View Post
They also talk about the violent over throw of the US government, but their main point is what they think of gun control.
People violently overthrowing their government rarely ends well, and in most cases is ridiculous. Brevik wished to violently overthrow his government.

Its not a reason for people to own heavy weaponry.
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Old December 22nd, 2012, 03:25 PM   #115 (permalink)
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How would more people with guns scare these shooters when the vast majority of them don't plan on surviving anyway? Most of them kill themselves or commit suicide by cop. Kind of hard to scare somebody who already plans on dying.
Good point. However, if by some dumb luck someone with a gun is standing in the sae area as the maniac and has time to draw the weapon, he may be able to take out the bad guy before too much damage is done. I know, there aren't many examples of that but its a possibility id like to live with rather than just know when $#! + gets real, i have to wait until the ammo is gone. By then itll probably be too late for most of those in the area.



http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=13705438

One example of someone using a gun for good. Policy shmolicy, if the employees had died it would not have been an issue.
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Old December 22nd, 2012, 03:29 PM   #116 (permalink)
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Its not a reason for people to own heavy weaponry.
Unfortunately, other than just in case i don't see a reason to... Although if there's a reason to say just in case, there's a reason to own........ Of course without anyone owning these types of weapons there wouldn't be mass killings.... Unless someone really wanted to and just used multiple loaded pistols........
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Old December 22nd, 2012, 09:12 PM   #117 (permalink)
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People violently overthrowing their government rarely ends well, and in most cases is ridiculous. Brevik wished to violently overthrow his government.

Its not a reason for people to own heavy weaponry.
Our founding fathers disagreed. Our country started by overthrowing a tyrannical government. Just saying.
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Old December 25th, 2012, 06:58 PM   #118 (permalink)
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Our founding fathers disagreed. Our country started by overthrowing a tyrannical government. Just saying.
'nuff said!
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Old December 25th, 2012, 07:44 PM   #119 (permalink)
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Our founding fathers disagreed. Our country started by overthrowing a tyrannical government. Just saying.
Similar to the current government...

One lesser tyrant then the other!
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Old December 26th, 2012, 09:34 AM   #120 (permalink)
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Our founding fathers disagreed. Our country started by overthrowing a tyrannical government. Just saying.
Oh no, having to pay taxes, how tyrannical. I agree about the whole taxation without representation thing, and certainly the federation said founding fathers built was way ahead of any other system at the time, but nonetheless. They were not infallible, and I think tyrannical is very harsh.

As an argument for ownership of weapons? Pretty weak. Muhammad had a lot of excellent ideas, doesnt mean that a man should take multiple wives (while woman couldnt do vice versa), or that women should be legally worth less today.

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'nuff said!
Nah.
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Old December 26th, 2012, 03:11 PM   #121 (permalink)
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I'm tired of the reporters walking down the street and asking everybody the same asinine questions-"where were you when it happened?", "how does it make you feel?", "did you ever think this could happen here?"
They are simply doing their job.

You might spend your day putting wing nuts on widgets and reporters do whatever they can to grab that next memorable quote. You do your job and the reporter is just doing his or her job.

I turn off the news after I know most of the story.

Nothing new, just a pile of dead kids, the shooter will never see jail and more kids will die because we do not know what to do, short of banning guns. This will not work and banning guns is a worse tragedy than the death of even children.
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Old December 26th, 2012, 03:29 PM   #122 (permalink)
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How do laws prevent this from happening? We have lots of deaths that happen even though we have stricter gun laws. And there are countries with lots of guns that do not suffer the problems we have.

We decided to protect schools, yet we have shootings in schools.

We pass laws to keep guns out of the hands of bad people so the bad people break into our homes and steal our guns. If we use our guns for protection and we shoot the bad guy, we stand a good chance of going to jail and the press starts talking about the dangers of guns in the home and they spin what is our God Given Right to protect ourselves in our homes into something else.

We ban "assault weapons" and we do not seem to know what an assault weapon is.

We make it harder for decent people to purchase guns, yet we do nothing about the laws that allow me to privately purchase a gun from someone I do not know; someone who does not know me. We seem to want gun control in one form or another, so we go over the top and pass laws that only make it harder for good folks to "keep and bear arms."

Many gun rights advocates think some sort of law is needed to keep guns out of the hands of crazy people, ex-felons and others, yet they will fight to the death, any law that restricts private sales and gun show sales. And if I am allowed by law to purchase a Ruger 357, then why not eliminate BC checks at gun stores?

I think every gun --from .22 cal single shots to 50 cal--should be available over the counter after a simple and uncomplicated background check. If the government wants to chip away at our RIGHTS!!! they should put the mechanism in place to make it easier for decent people to own guns of all kinds.

If they cant figure out a system that makes sense, then we need to ban all gun laws.

If we do not figure out what to do, the government can effectively ban most guns by laws that might be Constitutional.
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Old December 26th, 2012, 04:42 PM   #123 (permalink)
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I'm tired of the reporters walking down the street and asking everybody the same asinine questions-"where were you when it happened?", "how does it make you feel?", "did you ever think this could happen here?" Ugh. On the other hand, some of the parents really want to talk about their children. A couple have invited Anderson Cooper into their homes to talk about their kids, and it was extremely moving. I do think it's enough with the 24/7 coverage. If they have something new to report, fine. Otherwise give it a rest.

I think some of the people who come to the ridiculous teddy bear monument are there just to try to get on TV. Sad thing about our reality show/fame whore culture.
I totally agree with you. The media really needs to stop talking about this horror and let everyone that are directly affected to be able to mourn their loss in peace. The more attention the media gives to this killer, the more it gives other potential killers ideas that it's ok and how "glorifying" this can be for them. Why can't the news/media portray and repeat more positive deeds people have done that have impacted their community rather than constantly talking about a travesty?
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Old December 27th, 2012, 09:59 AM   #124 (permalink)
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I totally agree with you. The media really needs to stop talking about this horror and let everyone that are directly affected to be able to mourn their loss in peace. The more attention the media gives to this killer, the more it gives other potential killers ideas that it's ok and how "glorifying" this can be for them. Why can't the news/media portray and repeat more positive deeds people have done that have impacted their community rather than constantly talking about a travesty?
Not sure, but my guess is back in the good old days, this story would have been discussed just as much as it is today, perhaps more. I absolutely guarantee you that if it happened back in the day, it would be the topic of discussion for months to come. Newspapers would likely have published special editions because it would have been huge news across the planet.

Newspaper men and women had to get the story and God help you if you let another newspaper or TV station scoop you. We called them 'reporters' back in the day; they reported something we called the news. They fought for every column inch and their careers depended on getting the story, getting that comment or unnoticed fact. Reporters could be ruthless in those days and reporters wanted headlines above the fold.

Perhaps the story would be covered much more and far longer because it would have been a much bigger story back in the day because these things simply did not happen.

As for others learning to do what this killer did based upon the news reports, I am not sure that can be proven. Seems logical, but is it true? Not sure it is. If it is true, perhaps we need to ban the news?

I do think for the most part, news coverage is sloppy these days and most news organizations are certainly not as good as they once were. Some argue that it is too much coverage and I might agree to a point. But that is how it has always been. I recall when we only had three TV stations and two local papers and no Internet. Most cities had several papers and most papers published special editions as well as both evening and morning editions.

To be fair, lots of papers would be sold because tragic events sell papers and that is what papers need to do and want to do. I am almost jaded enough to say horrific events are things publishers wait for because they want to sell newspapers.

Back in the good old days, coverage was handled differently. Editors actually loved facts and God help you if you behaved like so many “reporters” behave today. Back in the day, we had Yellow Sheets and Scandal Sheets. They were terrible publications and if you worked for one, chances are you would never, ever work for a NY Times or Chicago Tribune.

The phrase “yellow journalism” comes from these terrible publications.

We lived in a world where other things were happening and these stories had to be covered. Editors decided how many column inches to devote to every story. Reporters would try to cover these horrific stories thoroughly, but the public still wanted to know about the events so they were fed with as much information as our news directors and editors would allow. And they ruled their newspapers with an iron fist.

If you listen to the Eagle’s song, ‘Dirty Laundry’ you will learn how journalism works.
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Old December 28th, 2012, 10:30 AM   #125 (permalink)
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For those of you who do not know what tyranny is:
Noun
Cruel and oppressive government or rule.
A nation under such cruel and oppressive government.

While I don't see this government as being cruel, I do see trying to take away our rights to be oppressive.

"When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

Violently overthrowing governments doesn't work? I wonder if our founding fathers knew this..
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson
He is even telling us that to keep the government from becoming tyrannical we need to rebel. Now I have heard that he had also said that there should be a rebellion every 20 years, but I have not been able to find an accurate source for that.

Our second amendment is one of our most important rights, because it protects all our other rights. If any of our found fathers could here these debates about banning guns they would be rolling in their graves. It is the biggest pile of nonsense there is.

And some argue with me that back then they only had muskets... this amendment is expansive, it grows with the time. The founding fathers didn't give us the right to keep and bear arms for recreation or to hunt, they gave it to us to deter the government from becoming tyrannic. They knew that someday they're own government would go against their principals they had put in place to define freedom.

"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government." -Thomas Jefferson

I think we have just that... too much government.
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Old December 28th, 2012, 11:23 PM   #126 (permalink)
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From reading this thread (and many others like it), I am amazed at how the free people of this country continue to be slowly subverted into blatant socialist ideology by the hollow promise of a utopian society to be realized by the systematic submittal to oppression and regulation. Sometimes I feel like everyone has a case of political Stockholm Syndrome.

By the way... to pbf98 (couldn't have said it better myself... just wanted to add "Give me liberty or give me DEATH!"...Patrick Henry)
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Old December 29th, 2012, 12:08 PM   #127 (permalink)
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From reading this thread (and many others like it), I am amazed at how the free people of this country continue to be slowly subverted into blatant socialist ideology by the hollow promise of a utopian society to be realized by the systematic submittal to oppression and regulation. Sometimes I feel like everyone has a case of political Stockholm Syndrome.
I really think that American's have no idea what socialism is. Shame you guys didnt have the specter of USSR rule hanging over you guys, might have give ye a clearer picture. Americans think my country is socialist because we have a socialist healthcare system. Its two-tier, but it is not like the private universal systems of other countries. That does not mean this is a socialist country. It is one of the least socialist in Europe, besides the new states from behind the old Iron Curtain.
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Old December 29th, 2012, 04:52 PM   #128 (permalink)
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I really think that American's have no idea what socialism is.
No, most of us don't know what it truly entails. I personally do but I and others like me are few compared to the mind muddled masses. Most of them think that socialism and communism are characteristics of overtly evil and oppressive governments as seen in Hollywood movies. They don't realize they are being led down that road in subtle baby steps. Before long it may be too late to turn back without a revolution. But most undercover socialist would just smirk at that comment and say something like... "What a nut!"
And actually, I hope they are right... I'd rather be crazy than oppressed or enslaved.

And another thing, why do people so readily agree to have something outlawed when they have no personal interest in them (i.e. guns). I mean, I have absolutely no use for game consoles (PS3, Xbox, etc...) and I DO think they contribute to the poor acedemic acheivement of our youth but I would NEVER, for ANY reason agree to outlaw said products simply because certain people choose to use them irresponsibly. Know what I mean, Vern?
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Old December 29th, 2012, 05:17 PM   #129 (permalink)
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I'd like to reiterate my sorrow and concern for the victims and their families of Newtown. Stay strong and stay free. Please don't let the unequaled trajedy inspire the kind of anger and resentment that can lead one to unknowingly join the socialist movement and seek to satisfy their need for vengeance on the rest of society. I can't imagine what you went or are going through and any negative emotions you be experiencing are COMPLETELY justified and understandable. So, again, stay strong.. and stay free.

On another Newtown note, what do you guys (AFers, that is) think about the people who were (and are, I am sure) running the net scam by requesting relief contributions for the Newtown victims and then keeping the money?

Just in case you haven't read about it:
Woman charged in Newtown fraud reportedly sought cash for Sandy victims | 7online.com
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Old December 29th, 2012, 05:23 PM   #130 (permalink)
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No, most of us don't know what it truly entails. I personally do but I and others like me are few compared to the mind muddled masses. Most of them think that socialism and communism are characteristics of overtly evil and oppressive governments as seen in Hollywood movies. They don't realize they are being led down that road in subtle baby steps. Before long it may be too late to turn back without a revolution. But most undercover socialist would just smirk at that comment and say something like... "What a nut!"
And actually, I hope they are right... I'd rather be crazy than oppressed or enslaved.

And another thing, why do people so readily agree to have something outlawed when they have no personal interest in them (i.e. guns). I mean, I have absolutely no use for game consoles (PS3, Xbox, etc...) and I DO think they contribute to the poor acedemic acheivement of our youth but I would NEVER, for ANY reason agree to outlaw said products simply because certain people choose to use them irresponsibly. Know what I mean, Vern?
You see, I dont see how one can truly claim we need a revolution to avoid socialism when we are the furthest away from it since the mid 1800s.

Socialism is a dead duck. People wont vote to have washing machine manufacturers nationalised purely for some ideal. They dont want an entirely state run economy. The most socialised economies in the world have government spending at maybe 45-50% of GDP. Thats is not socialism.

Across the world, socialist policies have been veered away from. India, has abandoned its failed experiment with it, thanks to the outside intervention of the IMF. In America, the idea of raising taxes is met with howls. Places like Denmark and Sweden are extremely business friendly, tailoring their economies around it.

Socialism is where the government controls the economy almost in its entirety. Its where once you go above a set number of employees or sales you get nationalised. The US is not heading there. The world is not.

One can have socialist systems without a socialist state. Most countries do, to varied extents.
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Old December 29th, 2012, 06:49 PM   #131 (permalink)
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Do media vultures perpetuate mass shootings? - Salon.com

Just why are people so damn nosy? Are their lives that freaking dull that they have to feed on the misery of others?

About guns - I don't like the powerful ones, but I wouldn't mind having a small shotgun and a load of rock salt to nail those damn mulies. I think there should be a much longer waiting period to buy one. If it was more difficult, then maybe the careless idiots that leave guns where kids can get at them or the guns can be stolen would be a little more careful. The guns couldn't be replaced on just a whim.

Stick a chip in any new guns. The gun can be tracked at any time. Legal and careful users should have no problem. The hunters who blast away at anything that moves, domestic livestock, other hunters should have a problem. There will be black boxes in all new cars - why not chip guns?
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Old December 30th, 2012, 04:34 AM   #132 (permalink)
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why not put chips in our arms ...... then we can be tracked at any time also...... think of the lives saved and the crimes stopped..... especially kidnapping

the law abiding and careful citizens should have no problem with this

just those trying to avoid the law

we will have black boxes in all new cars.... why not chip babies?
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Old December 30th, 2012, 07:31 AM   #133 (permalink)
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It will be coming to that the way things are heading now. Someone will have the idea of chipping kids to keep them safe from pedophiles. Or finding them on first missing report instead of weeks or years to even find the body.
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Old December 30th, 2012, 07:49 AM   #134 (permalink)
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and when the time comes that we all must have chips put in our body...... and we have to maintain detailed records of everything we do from eating a chip to going to the bathroom....... someone will say its necessary........ and many will agree

and none of that will solve the problems

then what will we do

hows that quote go?

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Socialist.


Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me. - Martin Niemöller


who will speak for you?
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Old December 30th, 2012, 03:49 PM   #135 (permalink)
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People vote for things that sound good on paper and they think they understand it will help them because a talking head said it will help them. Then, when it starts to affect them personally and individually, they suddenly get it. In other words, when the rubber meets the road. They do not understand that there are always unanticipated causes and effects with some of the things they vote for.


We might pass a law to “punish” one group of people like the rich all the while not understanding that the wealthy likely have a way to avoid the higher taxes or they pass the loss on to the consumer. When we decide to punish the rich, we do not achieve the goal; all we do is end up punishing ourselves.

When we punish the rich, they find a way to recover with the end result being they make and retain just as much money, all the while, at the cost of jobs and/or higher consumer costs.
My guess is the wealthy will not pay more taxes. They might cut a larger check, but they will replace the cash somehow. Perhaps by laying people off, cutting benefits, not opening a second store or putting their plans to build a factory on hold. So they go off shore and we suffer. Perhaps they use loopholes in the tax law. Apparently, it will cost every one of us about 5% more come tax time.

People love Obama Care but it will cost them and they do not seem to get it. We already know it was voted for and passed by people that did not bother to read the bill they want to force upon us. Not sure how many gathered here know what is actually in the bill. “Sounded good, I am all for it. No, wait… why am I getting a bill for $1,200.00? I thought the rich would pay’ I also thought it meant free health care.”

I think millions of people like the new health care because they think it means free. Until the estimated bills arrive and they discover they must pay perhaps 2 grand or more. There are lists of companies that are exempt from Obamacare, so there will be ways around the higher taxes the so-called rich must pay. Just thee and me will bear the cost and the poor will suffer because of reduced handouts, most likely.

Those of us that actually pay federal taxes will bear the brunt and trust me on this, you folks that do not pay will still be paying one way or another.

I wonder what would happen if we were billed monthly for wasteful government spending. I think each American should get an itemized bill every month from Uncle Sam that lists what each American pays for. Costly, yes. It could be a thousand pages or more. We have spent millions of dollars to train Chinese prostitutes to drink responsibly. Is this really needed?'

30 Stupid Things The Government Is Spending Money On

Let’s remove the abstract and put it in terms we all understand. Give us a huge bill listing everything the government spends and how they spend it. If people see a list of everything the government wastes money doing, perhaps they might question government waste and decide that perhaps we need reform.

We need a Grace Commission to be sure.

The abstract is one thing but having to cut a check each month for things like the 1,271 government organizations that work on counter terrorism and homeland security is quite another. Most of us do not see a list of waste and we ignore what tens of trillions of dollars really means. Can you imagine if we received itemized bills listing just the 1,200 HS/CT departments? Would we wonder if 1,200 is perhaps overkill?

When people actually have to pay real dollars, they suddenly seem to get it.
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Old December 30th, 2012, 03:58 PM   #136 (permalink)
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It will be coming to that the way things are heading now. Someone will have the idea of chipping kids to keep them safe from pedophiles. Or finding them on first missing report instead of weeks or years to even find the body.
Not sure. We do chip our dogs, so perhaps yes, I am wrong.

Can't you do this already? Not sure, but it seems the tech is in place and if putting a chip in your beagle is possible, so is putting one in your kid. Then the bad people will find a way to jam the signals, perhaps.

A chip might make it easy for bad people to find your kid. If it is available and something bad does happen, the public will demand to know why you did not chip your kid. If the pedophiles find your kid because you chipped him or her, they will demand your head for allowing it to happen by chipping your kid.

I would like chipped kids so I will know where to avoid. I could find kid free places to eat.
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Old December 30th, 2012, 05:24 PM   #137 (permalink)
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Our founding fathers disagreed. Our country started by overthrowing a tyrannical government. Just saying.
However, back then, if you were an atheist, well, good luck to you and your kin. You had better have a belief in a God that was acceptable to the local populous or you were likely screwed. You better be in church on Sunday or No Soup for You! Saying that you had a different view or saying there is no proof of the existence of God and you might be crucified.

So much for that whole freedom of speech thing.

Admitting you did not believe in God meant you were likely crazy. Same view many hold to this day. Many escaped other countries because of religious persecution and arrived here where practicing certain beliefs were not really allowed, either. A moot point, perhaps, because these folks were believers for the most part.
Certainly, the United States is a place where those with different religious views could feel safe. That is why millions of people arrived here, “yearning to breathe free.” Just make sure you practiced the right religion and you worshiped the right God.

You could practice it to be sure, but you would not likely be welcomed with open arms. Just admit there is no God and forget running for office. Not an Irish Catholic in Boston? Well, there was a time where you could forget serving the people, for the most part.

We have religious freedom, sure. But we do not have the “right” to not believe.

Especially if you liked to bang drums while wearing a saffron colored dress.

I can well imagine the Hare Krishna folks being run out of Dodge back in the 1800’s for banging drums and dancing near the airport. People might find it crazy or perhaps dangerous and the courts would likely forget the idea of religious freedom. I can imagine back in the day, the local courts finding you guilty when they find out you do not believe in God and for that reason alone. Bring up the freedom of religion thing, and it would be likely ignored by the judge and/or the people in the jury box.

It is interesting to note that not too long ago, if you brought a gun into town, it had to be turned in to the sheriff. So much for that right to keep and bear arms thing. I also recall the accounts about plural marriages (LDS Church) and the government put a stop to that. So no, you can only believe in the right God, the right Bible and you could have beliefs if they were the right ones.

OTOH, I believe you could own a Gatling gun, so that was a good thing.

Back in the day, people were often free to believe in God just as long as it was the "right God" or at the very least, “a God.” An atheist view meant you suffered one way or another.

These days, you must “believe” in God in some school rooms. Some places voted to make teaching the so-called Intelligent Design theory alongside evolution. So much for the supposed (often misquoted) idea of separation between Church and State thing and say goodbye to hard science. In this case, the local governing body requires a certain religious view to be taught. This is not the “separation of Church and State” thing people often get wrong.

Tell the teacher you do not believe in any god and you might not pass the class. We have religious freedom to some extent until you practice it freely then the trouble starts.

Try being a Buddhist and espousing your lack of belief in any god or gods. No place for that, most likely. Worship Thor as your God and Personal Savior and see what happens. We cherish the Constitution because it gives us freedom of religion. Just putting it into practice and see where it gets you. When I run for office, I’ll admit my belief in Thor and I’ll not be elected. We are free to believe, but we must believe in the God others believe in or we are out.

And Thor is as legitimate to many people long ago as any God we worship today.

The zealots say the science of evolution is undecided yet they do not recognize the obvious problem us Hell bound heathens see: faith is not proof and God and the stories of the Bible are unproven. Intelligent design is taught because they bloody well know that they must remove mention of God or they will be accused of what the smarter among us know they actually want to do: put God smack in the middle of school curriculum.

A matter of the pot calling the Darwin black, to paraphrase that old saw.

Some places you will thrive if your belief is the "right belief." That said, for the most part, we the people turned out alright and we are free to worship anything we want. Just forget the idea that there is a separation and the atheistic view is cause for problems at some level.
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Old December 30th, 2012, 05:36 PM   #138 (permalink)
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why not put chips in our arms ...... then we can be tracked at any time also...... think of the lives saved and the crimes stopped..... especially kidnapping

the law abiding and careful citizens should have no problem with this

just those trying to avoid the law

we will have black boxes in all new cars.... why not chip babies?
It could very well be a grand idea. But like the old New Coke, Salt and Vinegar Potatoe Chips and Justin Bieber, we often learn good ideas, well, aren't.

I am ok with it if there is an Android app for that.

Parents could track their kids and freak out when they enter a bad neighborhood. They could make sure their little ones are in school and I could monitor kids entering my property and head them off at the pass.

I do not know if it is good or bad. Good perhaps if it is not mandatory. Bad if it is.

FYI: my car still has a tube radio, so I do not suffer the chips in the car thing.
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Old December 30th, 2012, 06:15 PM   #139 (permalink)
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Hey Bob... you got a little off subject with that second to last post dontcha think? There's a whole 'nother thread for that subject... just sayin.

I mean, how did we go from mass murder and gun control to religious freedom and chipped kids?
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Old December 30th, 2012, 06:22 PM   #140 (permalink)
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I do not know if it is good or bad. Good perhaps if it is not mandatory. Bad if it is.
Kinda like the choice of whether or not to have a firearm in the home. I totally agree that mandatory regulation of what the government deems safe and for the good of the people should generally be rejected. You give em an inch and they'll take a mile. Even if they only take an inch, those inches eventually add up to a mile.
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Old December 30th, 2012, 06:29 PM   #141 (permalink)
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Stick a chip in any new guns. The gun can be tracked at any time. Legal and careful users should have no problem. The hunters who blast away at anything that moves, domestic livestock, other hunters should have a problem. There will be black boxes in all new cars - why not chip guns?
Well, there might be a way to remove the chips and it is just one more little piece falling into place under the guise of protecting children with the goal being to take our rights away. It is one more step towards making gun ownership difficult. If I want a gun with no chip to commit crimes, no problem. The store might only sell chipped guns but no such requirements when I buy it illegally on the street.

Keep and bear arms is fairly easy to grasp. No rules in the Constitution about size. As soon as we decide a gun past a certain size must be banned means eventually all guns will be banned. That is the dream of many people. No guns, period.

Please due tell . . . what do you mean by a powerful gun? Not sure what that means. Still not sure what an 'assault weapon" is, either. People react to scary looking weapons and seem to forget that any gun is deadly in the hands of a maniac.

I like a 22 cal. Cheap to shoot. And it is deadly, too. Should I not be able to buy a 10 gauge shotgun? Not sure if you know what that is, but as shotguns go, it is a fairly 'big gun.”

What about a 357? That is a "big gun." Perhaps we ban guns over a certain size. Then we ban them just under a certain size. Where does it stop? I say it stops with the repeal of most gun laws and people that want a .50 cal Desert Eagle can be in and out in 15 minutes. To be sure, a .50 cal handgun is a really big gun as a few here will attest. Scares me, that is for sure.

Again, you might not like big guns and that’s cool. Guns of any kind scare some people and it is your right not to own one. That said, it is that kind of thinking I do not understand. What does big really mean? I hope I can own a Smith and Wesson 500 one day. A very big one to be sure.

If you want a fully automatic weapon--a machine gun, in other words--you can buy one. Not illegally, but with the full blessing of the government. Not sure many crimes have been committed with a machine gun. I mean a legally purchased “Tommy Gun.”

Need a silencer? No problem. Again, absolutely legal under federal law. Did you know that? Silencers are legal in my home state and if you can afford the fees, you can own one. Not sure how many crimes are committed by legal owners of these items, but I do know some states prevent owning a silencer.

It is/was as legal as a mincemeat pie except in Boston in the 1600’s. Mincemeat pies at Christmas time were banned along with Christmas. You could go to jail for celebrating Christmas, but you could weaponize yourself, go figure. Eat a pie, go to jail.

I looked it up. Apparently, there was a “bring your guns to church” law in the mid 1600’s Connecticut. Bring your gun across state lines, but you had better not be carrying a mincemeat pie.
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Old December 30th, 2012, 06:55 PM   #142 (permalink)
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Kinda like the choice of whether or not to have a firearm in the home. I totally agree that mandatory regulation of what the government deems safe and for the good of the people should generally be rejected. You give em an inch and they'll take a mile. Even if they only take an inch, those inches eventually add up to a mile.
Here is the problem. The right to own a gun is not just a law, like no paring in a school zone or no salt shakers in your favorite NYC eatery. It is a fundamental right. Not a good idea to be changed on a whim, but a RIGHT! Anything that tramples that fundamental right should scare people. And the Constitution is NOT a living, breathing document. Such documents are useless. Like a written sales contract with terms that can be changed as you see fit.

When we accept banning guns or making them hard to get means those that make the laws will have no problem with curtailing our other rights.

Consider an outright ban on guns; a turn in your guns kinda law. SCOTUS sides with the state and they refuse to hear the case. Possible with a liberal SCOTUS and admittedly not going to happen; this is just a thought experiment. Already, you see laws that chip away at a basic right. The camel head under the tent sort of thing.

People that hate guns applaud.

Then a state decides to eliminate some forms of free speech by passing laws regarding the Internet. Or they say you cannot speak badly of President Michelle Obama or Malia Ann Obama 8 years later or Sasha Obama 8 years after that. Perhaps a new law prevents selling books that are mean spirited or nasty. Or you can no longer protest something.

Suddenly, those that hate guns are bat crap happy that they have been finally banned are upset like hell that their freedom of speech is suddenly gone. They are pleased several courts took our guns away, telling us the Constitution is a “living, breathing document” that needs to be changed but they are upset that another fundamental right is gone, citing the very document they suddenly love and pointing out our freedom. They want it both ways.

They only support the constitution when it serves their needs. Those that want guns immediately banned do not know much. They want the constitution upheld with regards to freedom of speech all the while forgetting that my right to own guns is covered in the document they suddenly decide is important.

Those that want guns gone should stand shoulder to shoulder with gun owners. Work to end violence, not trample the U.S. Constitution. They should be scared whenever a sitting president or the Supreme Court decides to ignore our absolute rights.
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Old December 30th, 2012, 07:30 PM   #143 (permalink)
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Hey Bob... you got a little off subject with that second to last post dontcha think? There's a whole 'nother thread for that subject... just sayin.

I mean, how did we go from mass murder and gun control to religious freedom and chipped kids?
Well, at least I did not invoke Adolph Hitler, so I get three points for that. Given enough time, Hitler will always be invoked at some point, in all threads, even the cooking ones.

Are you new here? Do you not know that I hijack threads?.

Regardless of the thread subject, I only commented on the chipped kids because someone brought it up, so blame the person that brought it up. I can only work with the material you all provide. As I understand the thread, chips will stop the mass murders if we chip our kids, our guns and I suggest we also chip our Bibles.

Mass murder discussions always turns to talk of more gun control. Religious freedom is in the Construction as are gun rights, and the right wing uber conservative gun nuts like me, see chipped kids as bearing the mark of the Devil, which will obviously increase violence. So chips mean violence, see how it is all tied together?

1- Murders mean more gun control
2- Gun control means ignoring the Constitution
3- Ignoring the Constitution means we can chip our kids with impunity
4- The chipping process will invoke the devil
5- Invoking the devil means more violence
6- This means banning bibles to remove the devil from our lives in an effort to reduce violence
7- Banning the Bible means freedom of the press is gone
8- Banning freedom of the press means stabbings will increase
9- More stabbings means more knife control laws
10- Our country is lost forever and the Taliban takes over and bans alcohol
11- No alcohol means increased violence
12- With no knives or guns, crimes will be perputated with baseball bats
13- Baseball bats will be banned
14- No more World Series

So be warned: chip a kid and baseball is lost forever; it is your choice. After the locusts leave us and the rivers run red with wine and tears, they will take our last freedom away. Probably Adolph's fault if you ask me.

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Old December 30th, 2012, 07:51 PM   #144 (permalink)
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Good point. However, if by some dumb luck someone with a gun is standing in the sae area as the maniac and has time to draw the weapon, he may be able to take out the bad guy before too much damage is done.
Here in Utah, we have a shopping center called Trolley Square. There was a violent incident and the police arrived. They warned people to stay away. The cops arrived and all they knew is someone with a gun was hurting people.

The police did not know what was going on and they did not want to shoot an innocent person who might be there to help.

I think that idea must be part of all such discussions. People with guns could stop the insanity, but when the police arrive on the scene, they do not know who is who or what is going on.

Perhaps a police officer can chime in. I think in such cases, it can be a real fear because the police do not know the players. Eventually a cop will shoot someone trying to help and it will be one more reason to ban guns, in the eyes of many.

I recall reading something about a Russian case many decades ago. As I recall, there was a fire set by the bad people. As family members and help arrived, a gunman started shooting. The fire was apparently set specifically to bring scared people to the fire in an effort to help and they were shot.

This happened in 1920 or so as I recall.
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Old December 30th, 2012, 08:04 PM   #145 (permalink)
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the irony being how strict pennsylvania is on guns and heres a guy with a gun? or the irony being that if they werent so very strict that guy would have been stopped within 5 mins?
Yup indeed.

Some things have always struck me as rather odd.

We ban certain guns and decent people that could make a difference cannot carry. I am reminded of the diner in Texas. I saw interviews with a woman that lost much of her family who might have stopped the carriage but Texas law (at the time) had strict laws that prevented her from packing. Her gun was in her car.

In this case, gun laws=the slaughter of the innocent. Rather ironic, I think. Sadly so.
We create gun free zones and still, kids are killed or hurt. We pass law after law and the laws do little good, if any. Reporters call semi-automatic weapons automatics all the while, forgetting that full autos are legal to own and there are very few crimes perpetrated by lawfully registered Tommy Gun owners.

They whine about gang gun crimes and say we need to ban guns but forget that gang bangers seem to like the lack of guns in the hands of decent folk.

I’ll say it . . . stronger gun laws help criminals that fear being shot dead by a good person.
We can read the hard data but reporters choose to ignore the facts. For example, there is a decrease in violent crimes nationwide, yet we hear how gun violence has increased.

We ignore the Constitution and our leaders try to make guns difficult to purchase or carry and some states ignore the Constitution until censorship is discussed then the document becomes sacred.
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Old December 31st, 2012, 09:50 AM   #146 (permalink)
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If you want a fully automatic weapon--a machine gun, in other words--you can buy one. Not illegally, but with the full blessing of the government. Not sure many crimes have been committed with a machine gun. I mean a legally purchased “Tommy Gun.”

Need a silencer? No problem. Again, absolutely legal under federal law. Did you know that? Silencers are legal in my home state and if you can afford the fees, you can own one. Not sure how many crimes are committed by legal owners of these items, but I do know some states prevent owning a silencer.
You point out something that I don't think the politicians can see.. How many legally purchased and legally owned guns are used in these violent crimes?

And you say something else, how big is too big?? You said look at the .22 it is one of the smallest out there, but lethal none the less. The fact of the matter is that a bullet is a bullet.

Keeping guns in the hands of law abiding citizens is not bad, it is good. My christmas present from my parents this year was 38 revolver that is concealable being that I have my permit to carry in my state.

There is a gun ban proposal out there now that is absolutely outrageous, the worst part about it is that when the owner dies the police must confiscate ALL guns owned by the deceased. Including shot guns, hand guns, etc..

On a side note, has anyone heard of the lawsuit that is being put against sandy hook elementary school? I heard of it over the weekend the school is being sued for $100,000 for lack of safety measures... HOW? if the court rules in favor of the plaintiff that is ridiculous.

And talking about mandatory chips in babies and everyone else.. big brother is that you??
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Old December 31st, 2012, 12:15 PM   #147 (permalink)
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On a side note, has anyone heard of the lawsuit that is being put against sandy hook elementary school? I heard of it over the weekend the school is being sued for $100,000 for lack of safety measures... HOW? if the court rules in favor of the plaintiff that is ridiculous.
Thats ridiculous if its true. My primary school had zero anti-massacre safety measures, no training, no metal doors, no armed guards, no drones etc. The idea of them getting sued due to someone coming in and shooting up the place seems mad.

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My christmas present from my parents this year was 38 revolver that is concealable being that I have my permit to carry in my state.
Getting a Christmas present of a revolver? All seems a bit Republika Srpksa circa 1999.
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Old December 31st, 2012, 01:54 PM   #148 (permalink)
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Well, at least I did not invoke Adolph Hitler, so I get three points for that. Given enough time, Hitler will always be invoked at some point, in all threads, even the cooking ones.

Are you new here? Do you not know that I hijack threads?.
No, you didn't invoke AH then, but you just did. lol. And yes I am a little new here. But no offense meant and none taken. I'm pretty much on your side.

I just wish we could break the barrier of the OTHER folks who just can't seem to get it that more laws and restrictions only affect those that are willing to abide by them (and I'm not afraid of those kind of people). Like you mentioned in your posts, illegal guns will ALWAYS be available to people who wish to acquire them. Automatic weapons are illegal and I could have one by sundown if I truly wished. If we chip the guns, people will simply buy non-chipped guns on the street.

And, really, who cares if a gun is chipped... how will that stop someone from using it to murder someone, especially if they plan to commit suicide at the same time? Don't think I'm preaching to the choir, Bob. I know you've stated most if this already. I'm just trying to reiterate it to the muddled masses. But actually, I really don't think any of them will ever get it. The thirst for vengeance and the need to place blame, especially when the perpetrators end up dead and beyond the grasp of social justice, are extremely blinding factors.
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Old December 31st, 2012, 03:19 PM   #149 (permalink)
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Oh my bad, not $100,000... $100 Million... Newtown Lawsuit: Lawyer For School Shooting Survivor Says $100 Million Claim Is About Security

What is the world coming to?

The lawyer claims that its not about the money, but its about improving the security. I'd say the security was pretty good, a lot better than the elementary school I went to. There were no locked doors, people were able to walk in and out freely... My high school on the other hand, we had an armed sheriff deputy walking the halls due to reoccurring bomb threats. He is still there even though the bomb threats stopped the year I was a senior.

If its not about money, then why make it a 100 Million dollar case?
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Old December 31st, 2012, 04:37 PM   #150 (permalink)
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It's really, really horrible. A co-worker did point out to me a simple fact. How many kindergartners are there in America today? And we have 18 die in a tragedy. Statistically speaking it's insignificant. Those really are the cold hard facts. As tragic as it is, it's statistically insignificant.

I don't know what the solution is. It's certainly not more laws. It's already illegal to bring a gun on to school property. That law didn't stop this at all. I don't know what other laws would've prevented this.

I really think the problem is the culture we live in. We live in an extremely violent culture that glorifies violence. It shouldn't be too surprising that people would lash out with violence since the culture we live in legitimizes that as a valid response.
Elimination of that "Gun Free Zone" bullchit and allowing, on a voluntary basis, teachers, faculty, and other employees of the public school systems all over the country to train, qualify and carry conceled weapons.

We all know this was not a sane rational person. So where does an insane, irrational person, bent on "making a name" go? Wherever he sees a "Gun Free Zone" sign, knowing it will be 10 minutes AT LEAST until someone can shoot back.

Remember Norway? Very strict gun contol laws. Didn't stop their shooter, who had nearly an HOUR AND A HALF, before the "authorities" could decide what action to take: 2011 Norway attacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also, Conneticut is one of the MOST stringent gun control states, right up there with D. Feinsteins California. And to say it did no good is stating the obvious.

http://dailycaller.com/2012/12/16/george-will-tougher-gun-laws-assault-weapons-ban-wont-help-video/

I won't be buying any new Android devices for awhile.
Allocating disposable income now in defense of the 2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, purchase of ammunition and accessories for my hunting and sporting rifles and my defensive concealed carry weapon of choice. Already upgraded my NRA membership to lifetime instead of year to year.

I'll see you on those forums, been a pleasure. Will check back occasionally.

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