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Old January 12th, 2013, 08:55 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Gmash View Post
Not at one of the many, many, "gun shows" constantly roaming across the country, nor Craigslist, etc.
That's a good point. But to be fair, there aren't nearly as many gun shows as that at any given time, and frankly the mind of a non-gun owner who's consumed with enough anger to kill isn't likely to be thinking straight enough to find these loopholes rapidly. I'm comfortable with this loophole.

If, after the public has had time to sober up and discuss the issues with clear minds, it's decided that vendors at gun shows have to abide by the same rules, I'm OK with that, although I know it's not going to be a panacea. I already have to jump through hoops to ship unloaded and dismantled firearms; by law a licensed firearms merchant must be involved at both ends. If I have to pay big money to inherit my uncle's hunting rifle, let everyone get soaked.

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Old January 12th, 2013, 09:04 AM   #52 (permalink)
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The problem with that is that the Supreme Court flat out disagrees with you.
No, that's not true. Maybe 5/9 of the Supreme Court disagrees with me, but that's the same 5/9 that lost all credibility by bringing partisan politics into the court. The film Judgment at Nuremberg is a good reminder of what kind of future people like that are making for themselves.

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The finest legal minds in the country have made their arguments before the finest legal minds in the country and have concluded that the Second Amendment does in fact protect the rights of private citizens to own guns.
And...? What's your point?
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Old January 12th, 2013, 12:40 PM   #53 (permalink)
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And...? What's your point?
The point is that arguing that the Second Amendment doesn't apply to private citizens is moot because the supreme legal body in the land has ruled otherwise.
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Old January 12th, 2013, 01:43 PM   #54 (permalink)
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The point is that arguing that the Second Amendment doesn't apply to private citizens is moot because the supreme legal body in the land has ruled otherwise.
And what's the point of that? Why are you arguing against your own ideas?
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Old January 12th, 2013, 05:20 PM   #55 (permalink)
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The point is that arguing that the Second Amendment doesn't apply to private citizens is moot because the supreme legal body in the land has ruled otherwise.
It states what it states. Well regulated means with laws regarding ownership rights, irregardless of opinion on whether for personal or national defense. It means laws can be passed that change the legality of certain types of firearms and availability of accessories (clips/magazines, ammo types, etc).
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Old January 13th, 2013, 04:45 PM   #56 (permalink)
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And what's the point of that? Why are you arguing against your own ideas?
I obviously didn't make myself clear. I've never felt the Second Amendment doesn't apply to private citizens. I've always felt that it does.
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Old January 14th, 2013, 07:54 AM   #57 (permalink)
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I obviously didn't make myself clear. I've never felt the Second Amendment doesn't apply to private citizens. I've always felt that it does.
Then you're way ahead of the curve because the Supreme Court has only thought so since the late 80s when Reagan packed it with right wingers. Like most things Reagan did, it's been a complete disaster. Historically, guns were always controlled in the US: they should be again.

Re the argument that there's no evidence that banning guns saves lives, try the fact the US has a homocide rate several times higher than anywhere else in the developed world.

I know guns don't kill people. They do make it a helluva lot easier for people to kill people, though.
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Old January 14th, 2013, 10:42 AM   #58 (permalink)
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Re the argument that there's no evidence that banning guns saves lives, try the fact the US has a homocide rate several times higher than anywhere else in the developed world.

I know guns don't kill people. They do make it a helluva lot easier for people to kill people, though.

There is evidence that banning guns in the US does not save lives. They've tried handgun bans in Chicago and DC. Had no effect on the murder rate. I think in Chicago the murder rate actually went up. So, the argument that banning guns would save lives doesn't seem to hold water.
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Old January 14th, 2013, 11:19 AM   #59 (permalink)
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Default Re: Executive Order to Deal With Guns

http://wh.gov/PUf7

Petition to prevent Executive Order by Obama.
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Old January 14th, 2013, 11:22 AM   #60 (permalink)
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There is evidence that banning guns in the US does not save lives. They've tried handgun bans in Chicago and DC. Had no effect on the murder rate. I think in Chicago the murder rate actually went up. So, the argument that banning guns would save lives doesn't seem to hold water.
I can verify that; I'm a witness. I lived mostly in Chicago during that time. Daley's plan backfired in a big way!

I've spent less time, and in shorter stretches in DC. But as a regular destination for me over the last 40 years, I've seen really bad crime there too.
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Old January 14th, 2013, 12:02 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Default Re: Executive Order to Deal With Guns

http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

In particular the graphs showing IL and DC when ’gun control’ was enacted, how homicides were effected, and how they compared to the rest of country.
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Old January 14th, 2013, 10:15 PM   #62 (permalink)
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GOP congressman threatens impeachment if Obama uses executive action for gun control
Texas Republican Rep. Steve Stockman threatened Monday afternoon that he would file articles of impeachment against President Barack Obama if he institutes gun control measures with an executive order.

“Any proposal to abuse executive power and infringe upon gun rights must be repelled with the stiffest legislative force possible,” he added. “Under no circumstances whatsoever may the government take any action that disarms any peaceable person — much less without due process through an executive declaration without a vote of Congress or a ruling of a court.”
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Old January 15th, 2013, 12:13 AM   #63 (permalink)
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Good luck with that.
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Old January 15th, 2013, 04:53 AM   #64 (permalink)
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so all day today the news will be filled with left wing types screaming about racists wanting to impeach the prez
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Old January 15th, 2013, 09:06 AM   #65 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jhtalisman View Post
Since the 2nd amendment specifically states "well-regulated militia", regulations on gun ownership is not a violation of that amendment.
You left out part of that..

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...the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed
People as in who make up the nation. it specifically states the right of the people shall not be infringed, not the militia's right..

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There you go again. Nobody is taking about banning guns. The second amendment doesn't say anything about the right to bear arms WITH NO REGULATIONS.
I ask you to please take a look at the definition of infringe.

in·fringe
/inˈfrinj/

Verb
1. Actively break the terms of (a law, agreement, etc.): "infringe a copyright".
2. Act so as to limit or undermine (something); encroach on: "infringe on his privacy".

Are regulations not limits?

So it does say with out regulations, you just have to really look at what it says.

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We had the assault rifle ban before and the Supreme Court did nothing to stop it. 62% of Americans are in favor of the assault rifle ban now. The NRA is holding the country hostage by brainwashing the weak minded.
62% of Americans maybe.. but there are 288 congress members who oppose all weapon bans at this time. This is why President Obama may need to use his executive power to do what he wants.

And it isn't assault "weapons" its assault rifles. And politicians aren't the brightest.. go ahead and ban my "magazine clips" I'll just load my magazine by hand.

Lets not forget the Osaka school massacre in 2001. A former janitor got ahold of a kitchen knife and began stabbing kids ages 5-8 killing around 8 I believe. Guns are not the issue.
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Old January 15th, 2013, 10:13 AM   #66 (permalink)
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Also the bow and arrow attack in Casper, WY not even 2 months ago!

The only "assault weapon" that needs to be banned is the mindset that "laws only apply to everyone else, but not me".
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Old January 15th, 2013, 03:25 PM   #67 (permalink)
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62% of Americans maybe.. but there are 288 congress members who oppose all weapon bans at this time. This is why President Obama may need to use his executive power to do what he wants.
Easier said than done.

Obama is not free to simply get his way by singing endless executive orders. He may be the president, but with a Congress against him and his (Obamas) disregard for following the Constitution and rule of law, Congress might decide enough is enough.

Especially when it comes to guns and gun bans. We the People do not want our rights taken away by a president that thinks he is a King. Politicians know enough to leave guns alone.

Congress is not going to sit by and be removed from the process by a president that thinks he does not need Congress. He is using his power to act without Congress on policy issues.

I refer you to this: How Is President Obama Abusing Presidential Power? - AskHeritage

I am beginning to think that President Obama actually believes he is free to do whatever he wants. He might decide to do as many bad things as possible because he does not need to worry about a third term, just the fat book deal and speaking fees.
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Old January 15th, 2013, 03:30 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Good luck with that.
I do not know, but remember, Johnson and Clinton--both Democrats--were impeached. I did not think Obama would be elected the first time and I was confident he would not be elected a second time. Both things happened.

Perhaps the president is not as safe as you might think.
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Old January 15th, 2013, 03:49 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by SiempreTuna View Post
Re the argument that there's no evidence that banning guns saves lives, try the fact the US has a homicide rate several times higher than anywhere else in the developed world.
Actually, the homicide rate in this country is very low. It has been in steady decline for many decades. And if there were no guns, people with the itch to kill would still kill.

Here in the United States, we do not slaughter entire races of people. We are not genocidal mass murderers sponsored by our government. We do not have a corrupt police force that lets wholesale murder occur. We do it in small batches and it is still rare.

61,911,000 Murdered: The Soviet Gulag State
35,236,000 Murdered: The Communist Chinese
20,946,000 Murdered: The Nazi Genocide State
10,214,000 Murdered: The Depraved Nationalist Regime

Contrasted the above with the number of kids murdered in the United States. Many of the people that die a violent death are criminals and drugs have lots to do with some problems.

We are not as violent as we once were and the fact bear this out.

The news keeps on a story for a long time and when they move on to the next story, we are left reeling. All we can think about is how one crazy nut bar could do such a terrible thing and perhaps we should ban guns without understanding that guns were never the problem.
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Old January 15th, 2013, 04:01 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Easier said than done.
Haha I meant to say thats why theres talk of him saying if it came down to it he would try and use it.
I watched his little press conference where he supposedly said it, but unless I wasn't paying attention when he said it, he didn't.

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I am beginning to think that President Obama actually believes he is free to do whatever he wants. He might decide to do as many bad things as possible because he does not need to worry about a third term, just the fat book deal and speaking fees.
And it almost does seem like he thinks that because he is president he gets to make all the decisions and make all the rules.. That is something a 3rd grader would think.
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Old January 15th, 2013, 04:30 PM   #71 (permalink)
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when americans are finally disarmed.. the people lose.

The only people pushing gun control are the mainstream media and politicians who have lassoed the victims of guns.

something not right with this picture.
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Old January 16th, 2013, 02:10 AM   #72 (permalink)
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Some of these people always take things the wrong way, especially if it's not their choice!

Quote:
Since he’s been president, there have been four mass shootings, President Obama remarked during a Sandy Hook Interfaith Prayer Vigil on December 16. The president hugged survivors and consoled families. An endless series of deadly shootings have plagued America, he said.
“We can’t tolerate this anymore. These tragedies must end. And to end them, we must change. We will be told that the causes of such violence are complex, and that is true,” President Obama said.
“No single law—no set of laws can eliminate evil from the world, or prevent every senseless act of violence in our society. But that can’t be an excuse for inaction,” he said.
President Obama vowed soon to use his power to prevent similar tragedies. He pledged to work with law enforcement, mental health professionals, parents and educators saying there was no other choice.
This is what I got from what the president said in one speech.
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Old January 16th, 2013, 04:41 AM   #73 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jamor View Post
when americans are finally disarmed.. the people lose.

The only people pushing gun control are the mainstream media and politicians who have lassoed the victims of guns.

something not right with this picture.
Absolutely there's something wrong with the picture: the whole thing is ridiculous right wing BS. Did republicans learn nothing from the recent election? Believing your own lie does not make it true - "Math You Do As A Republican To Make Yourself Feel Better".

The people pushing gun control include just about anyone who sees these mass killings for what they really are: totally avoidable tragedies. Could these head cases kill 22 kids if they didn't have a gun?
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Old January 16th, 2013, 05:02 AM   #74 (permalink)
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The majority of American people are for gun control.

People realize guns are already regulated, right? You can't go into Wal-Mart and buy a bazooka or mount a .50 caliber to the roof of your car. Infringement?

I see it brought up all of the time about how Chicago has strict gun laws and a high murder rate, so that means gun control doesn't work. That's a BS comparison. There's no cause and effect. NYC also has strict laws and their rates are lower. Common sense says banning handguns in one city is not going to affect anything one way or the other when people can just go to the suburbs or right outside the city line and get whatever they want. Flawed argument. Regardless, nobody is considering banning handguns anyway. That would be far too extreme and would never be accepted in America.
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Old January 16th, 2013, 05:58 AM   #75 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by pbf98 View Post
And it almost does seem like he thinks that because he is president he gets to make all the decisions and make all the rules.. That is something a 3rd grader would think.
If you dont want to that to be the case start a campaign for a (semi)-parliamentary system...
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Old January 16th, 2013, 09:27 AM   #76 (permalink)
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The reason why a majority of the people are against gun control is because of the stupid mainstream media brainwashing people to think what they tell them is the only thing that matters. Most people get their facts just from the TV news channels, which are completely biased. But if they were to do some research of their own, and look at both sides they'd see that the news is only telling you half of what you should know about them.

What about the states that adopted a right to carry law? Those states crime went down.. or is that just a coincidence? Chicago not good enough example how bout DC?


The real problem is not guns, its us, humans. Do you really think taking guns away from law abiding citizens will stop people from killing other people? No, if someone wants to kill and no one knows about it, chances are that it will happen with or with out guns. And there are far more deadlier things out there then guns that someone can use to kills multiple people in little time.

And what about the criminals that will get the guns regardless of laws? How are we going to get them to stop that? You can't we have two borders to the US and guns will come through them and go straight to the criminals no matter how strict you make your laws

Anything that limits the second amendment is infringement.. its in the definition of the word. If you don't want guns to protect yourself and your rights its simple, don't buy one, but let me make my own decision when it comes to that. Its my right, and I have done nothing wrong for it to be taken away from me. Don't punish me for something someone else did.
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Old January 16th, 2013, 09:47 AM   #77 (permalink)
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Yes, humans are evil, no argument there. Still, nobody is talking about taking guns away. The NRA will have a head exploding freak out if you try to change a magazine from 30 rounds to 29. Relax. This is America. Guns are ahead of baseball and apple pie in this country and they're not going anywhere.
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Old January 16th, 2013, 10:06 AM   #78 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ElasticNinja View Post
If you dont want to that to be the case start a campaign for a (semi)-parliamentary system...
It's not the case in the current system.
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Old January 16th, 2013, 10:52 AM   #79 (permalink)
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I believe the president is talking about taking guns away, assault rifles, and other firearms that meet certain criteria.

There is a gun ban proposal that would make my deer hunting gun illegal.. just because I outgrew it and had to put a collapsible stock on it.

There is also another proposal that bans all assault rifles and some hand guns, but it doesn't stop there, and at the death of a gun owner, any and all firearms must be given to the authorities. They may not be passed to family or friends in memory of their loss... My dad has his fathers Remmington Model 870 from 1951, the very first year it came into production.. If that proposal came into action, that would mean it wouldn't get passed on to me like intended.

Sure I don't think that would pass here, but yes there are people talking about taking guns away. Maybe not all, but any is too many already.
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Old January 16th, 2013, 05:21 PM   #80 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Gmash View Post
Yes, humans are evil, no argument there. Still, nobody is talking about taking guns away. The NRA will have a head exploding freak out if you try to change a magazine from 30 rounds to 29. Relax. This is America. Guns are ahead of baseball and apple pie in this country and they're not going anywhere.
IMO the greater issue here is a trend towards public officials who should act in the best interests of all the people they were hired to serve instead being bullied by the least informed, least rational but most vocal minority into doing things that are guaranteed to backfire.

We have an extreme shortage of common sense...
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Old January 16th, 2013, 06:34 PM   #81 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed Daemon View Post
IMO the greater issue here is a trend towards public officials who should act in the best interests of all the people they were hired to serve instead being bullied by the least informed, least rational but most vocal minority into doing things that are guaranteed to backfire.

We have an extreme shortage of common sense...
Sounds like a description of the Tea Party.....
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Old January 16th, 2013, 09:20 PM   #82 (permalink)
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Sounds like a description of the Tea Party.....
Yes it does, doesn't it? There are lots of parallels. The use of strong emotions rather than sound thinking as a motivator. The selfish beliefs that "my cause is more important than anything on earth". The threats. The utter ignorance of the very things that they're trying to change. It's the very worst of human behavior.

There are good ways and bad ways to do things.
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Old January 16th, 2013, 09:30 PM   #83 (permalink)
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which ironically those descriptors all fit perfectly for Obama, Reid, and the rest of the left wing extremists as well

so now we are in agreement that none of our elected officials from either side have a clue...... and we are still no closer to a solution for anything
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Old January 16th, 2013, 09:35 PM   #84 (permalink)
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We always seem to talk about solving gun tragedies when one occurs, but that’s always too late.
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Old January 16th, 2013, 09:42 PM   #85 (permalink)
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Something needs to be done about the violence with our young people.
yea it's called parents need to pay attention to their kids. these days parents throw money at them to shut them up and get them out of there hair. mexico has a 100% gun ban it has the highest murder rate per capita and had 55,000 deaths from violent murders. it is a fact if you look on the FBI website that violence has went down in america 49% since 1988 and gun violence is down also. i have to point out that one of the highest murder rates with guns in the country is obama's city of Chicago no guns equals more criminals with guns knives etc... another thing Obama was a constitutional attorney right? well he knows that executive orders are unconstitutional and are a end run around congress and who they represent the people. i seen a congressman saying he would bring Obama up on impeachment charges if he follows through and i think we all need to support him if he does because white black asian it is a power grab and infringing my rights where does it stop? if you want to ban guns do it the right way make an amendment to the constitution the lawful way.
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Old January 17th, 2013, 10:46 AM   #86 (permalink)
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Sure I don't think that would pass here, but yes there are people talking about taking guns away. Maybe not all, but any is too many already.
Perhaps we need that to happen.

A national gun roundup. Perhaps a national "Guns For iPhones" program. Trade in that rusty old Glock for a shiny new iPhone. Of course, it will be taken away at gun point by gangs.

No private ownership of any and all guns and all gun stores closed.

Perhaps then and only then, people who are violently anti-gun will see what can and will happen.

Then we establish a national religion and we hire thousands of net nanny types to stomp on the First Amendment while we are at it. If we can change the laws that prevent a King, that would be perfect.

A gun ban will not happen in my life. I am sad to say, it might happen at some point.

The camel's nose is under the tent.
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Old January 17th, 2013, 11:02 AM   #87 (permalink)
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So IF a mass confiscation of guns were to happen, would every gun owner be out all the money they spent on they're firearms over the years?

Oh and what about all the jobs that would cease because of a ban on guns? Is the job market that good now that we say its alright to just destroy an industry that held its own throughout the whole recession and that employs a decent number of people.


While they're at it (making plans to take away the 2nd amendment) why don't they just do what you say and just take away the first amendment at the same time.. once we lose the 2nd amendment we have nothing to stop them.

Do you think it bothers military that are over seas fighting for our freedoms, that are currently being stripped away? I know it would sure bother me to know that the freedoms and rights I signed up to die for are being taken away.
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Old January 17th, 2013, 11:58 AM   #88 (permalink)
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Why are we getting freaked out about confiscation of guns when we know it won't happen and we agree it won't happen?
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Old January 17th, 2013, 12:04 PM   #89 (permalink)
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So IF a mass confiscation of guns were to happen, would every gun owner be out all the money they spent on they're firearms over the years?

Oh and what about all the jobs that would cease because of a ban on guns? Is the job market that good now that we say its alright to just destroy an industry that held its own throughout the whole recession and that employs a decent number of people.


While they're at it (making plans to take away the 2nd amendment) why don't they just do what you say and just take away the first amendment at the same time.. once we lose the 2nd amendment we have nothing to stop them.

Do you think it bothers military that are over seas fighting for our freedoms, that are currently being stripped away? I know it would sure bother me to know that the freedoms and rights I signed up to die for are being taken away.
Yup. Money all gone. You should not have invested in all of those mass killing machines in the first place.

Jobs? Why should the government worry about job creation and/or losses now? The killing business is no business to be in, do you not know that? I might add that it is probably not green, so the industry must go. Yup, the gun business is not green, just red, as in the streets that will run red with blood if we do not rid America of guns.

I would like to think the military cares about the rights they are dying to protect. I will say most do.
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Old January 17th, 2013, 12:19 PM   #90 (permalink)
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Why are we getting freaked out about confiscation of guns when we know it won't happen and we agree it won't happen?
Well, if you do not trust Uncle Sam, you can ague that these changes in the law are just a few more steps towards a ban. I agree with you. Chances are it will not happen.

Obama is not King and if we elect a decent president, perhaps he or she will stem the tide.

It is not what Obama did; it is all about the many small changes that slowly erode certain rights as well as his use of executive orders. If you are not watching carefully, things have a way of sneaking up on you.

The size of the clip is not an issue. I seem to recall being able to load my Rugar Security Six quite quickly. The Speed Loader works well. As soon as a nut-bar kills a bunch of kids and he used a Speed Loader, expect to see those banned, too. The public will think that is just fine and another barrier is erected.

So, gun bans? Not likely. Are there powers that be that want all guns gone? Bloody well right.
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Old January 17th, 2013, 01:34 PM   #91 (permalink)
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But we're freaking out over something that hasn't happened and that we all agree won't happen. Yes, you have nuts who want all guns gone. But you also have nuts who want to hand out guns to everyone as well. You have nuts on both sides.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 07:26 AM   #92 (permalink)
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Why are we getting freaked out about confiscation of guns when we know it won't happen and we agree it won't happen?
Because that's what they do. Scare the hell out of Bubba that the gubament is gonna take his shotgun away. And who benefits? Follow the money. The NRA and the gun lobby sit back and watch the millions roll in while laughing at the lemmings. Painfully obvious, but works Every. Single. Time.

BTW, has anybody actually looked at these much maligned executive orders? Much ado about nothing.
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Old March 4th, 2013, 12:14 PM   #93 (permalink)
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Why are we getting freaked out about confiscation of guns when we know it won't happen and we agree it won't happen?
Because history has a way of repeating itself. And who agrees that it won't happen? I certainly do not.

Registration has lead to confiscation in many countries, including 'democracies' and 'republics'. New Zealand, the UK, Canada, Australia, and numbers of other countries used their registered gun lists to systematically confiscate their population's guns.

Plus this has some interesting tidbits about it: » DOJ Memo: Outlaw and Confiscate All Guns Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!

The US Government will not do gun confiscation in one fell swoop. They plan on having the states make laws to nickel-and-dime the common gun owner with various fees and training costs. This makes it too prohibitive to own a firearm through financial means. They will also restrict many of the guns to make it so you can only have a select few sizes. And when the population's gun ownership has dwindled, then the confiscation will go down.

I mean, why else does the US Government need 1.6 billion rounds of ammunition and 1,700 lightly armored tanks in America? Plus some 5,000 some odd drones in production. Oh, but don't worry, the Federal Government said that those drones may not be armed. Think about that...they may not be armed. Which means they could be armed. Why do we need armed drones flying around with hellfire missiles? This isn't Afghanistan.

Let's not forget the NDAA that was signed in late '12 where they can arbitrarily decide that any American citizen is an 'enemy combatant' and imprison them indefinitely without due cause or access to legal services.

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Because that's what they do. Scare the hell out of Bubba that the gubament is gonna take his shotgun away. And who benefits? Follow the money. The NRA and the gun lobby sit back and watch the millions roll in while laughing at the lemmings. Painfully obvious, but works Every. Single. Time.

BTW, has anybody actually looked at these much maligned executive orders? Much ado about nothing.
I'm sure the NRA is loving the huge uptick in membership. But they are not just sitting back and laughing. They've been protesting Obama's gun control laws from the start. Including testifying to Congress and setting up rallies and protests.

This is a legit threat to the 2nd amendment. What is painfully obvious, to use your words, is that this is being coordinated from the top. Meaning Obama is pulling the strings trying to make this happen. But people don't want to see that Obama is trying to manipulate the states into enacting gun control. Or they think it's a good thing. Either way, he is trying to revoke one of the Bill of Rights. He has already taken the 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th with the NDAA when he signed into law that any American citizen could be withheld indefinitely without due cause or a warrant or even a trial scheduled.
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Old March 5th, 2013, 01:46 AM   #94 (permalink)
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Hahaha.

Alex Jones.

Infowars. Great source.
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Old March 5th, 2013, 08:26 AM   #95 (permalink)
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Considering Eric Holder's and Barack Obama's stance on guns, I wouldn't be surprised if the DoJ actually did put that out. A fanatic's website may not be the best source, but it doesn't necessarily negate it.

Do you actually think that CNN or MSNBC would have published it if they got their hands on it?
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Old March 5th, 2013, 04:58 PM   #96 (permalink)
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actually I think many did publish it........ and most if not all at the very least discussed it..... of course some only discussed it from the standpoint of covering it up

it was an actual memo circulating within the dept........ it wasnt officially released...... and DOJ stated that it was a work in progress which was still being tweaked

nobody tried denying it existed....... other than a few left wing fanatics who deny anything that may portray Obama negatively..... obviously some are still about I see

as far as the source posted in this thread..... while I would agree that infowars isnt the most unbiased source of information...... I hardly think a person who routinely cites and thoroughly believes everything found on wikicrapia should be disparaging anyones sources
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