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Old May 4th, 2010, 01:47 PM   #51 (permalink)
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If your superior tells you to do something that is illegal, you are within your rights to ignore them. This is the case in private business, law enforcement, and the military. This is why if you are caught "just following orders," you are still prosecuted.
Not enforcing a law isn't illegal. Every gotten pulled over for speeding and not given a ticket?

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Old May 4th, 2010, 01:51 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Not enforcing a law isn't illegal. Every gotten pulled over for speeding and not given a ticket?
No.

I am also saying that it is really up to the cops if they will do so or not regardless of any subversion attempted by the desk jockeys you are talking about.
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Old May 4th, 2010, 01:54 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Why should it hurt their cause? They are proud of their country. Kind of like when the Irish or Italians get together they wave their flags.

You are a fool. They are not waving their flag for the same reason as the examples you gave. Many illegal immigrants do not consider themselves American or even want anything to do with America except for work here. I do not see the issue with this law. I speak Spanish, my family is from Cuba and Spain. I probably understand this issue a bit better than you. But please, just stop.
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Old May 4th, 2010, 02:04 PM   #54 (permalink)
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No.

I am also saying that it is really up to the cops if they will do so or not regardless of any subversion attempted by the desk jockeys you are talking about.
Those "desk jockeys" as you call them are the ones who are in charge. They aren't going to send LEOs to invistage the "there are a bunch of mexicans hanging out at home depot" calls that the police departments have been flooded with since this became law since there are more serious issues at hand.
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Old May 4th, 2010, 03:19 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Those "desk jockeys" as you call them are the ones who are in charge. They aren't going to send LEOs to invistage the "there are a bunch of mexicans hanging out at home depot" calls that the police departments have been flooded with since this became law since there are more serious issues at hand.
Who would investigate a call like that? Look at the example of the Maryland law that prohibits you from even asking that I was referring to earlier. The idea that the cops are going to walk around shaking brown people down for their papers is nonsense.
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Old May 4th, 2010, 03:41 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Who would investigate a call like that? Look at the example of the Maryland law that prohibits you from even asking that I was referring to earlier. The idea that the cops are going to walk around shaking brown people down for their papers is nonsense.
Except, of course, for Arizona...
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Old May 4th, 2010, 03:43 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Just because you are required to ask, doesn't mean that you ask every person you see. In that case, you may as well set up a table for people to come up and show their identifications before they go anywhere.

Think, people.
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Old May 4th, 2010, 03:49 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Just because you are required to ask, doesn't mean that you ask every person you see. In that case, you may as well set up a table for people to come up and show their identifications before they go anywhere.

Think, people.
Perhaps we'd be better served by having the police question naturalized Indo-Aryans frequenting New York City.
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Old May 4th, 2010, 04:08 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Come up with a better law that doesn't allow illegal immigrants no matter what their race, religion, nationality, gender, etc to be at a better standing than those coming to America by legal means.

I'm for this law, something has to be done about illegal immigrants. I personally don't have an issue with illegal immigrants other than they're breaking the law, and you shouldn't be able to do that. Thought that was pretty simplistic. If you don't give incentive for people to come to America legally, what's going to stop them from coming here and being able to work, and not pay taxes, while also getting education, and healthcare benefits?
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Old May 4th, 2010, 06:51 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Think, people.
I'm not sure that would help. There are way too many people in this country with IQs equal to their shoe size.
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Old May 4th, 2010, 07:14 PM   #61 (permalink)
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I'm not sure that would help. There are way too many people in this country with IQs equal to their shoe size.




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Old May 5th, 2010, 07:37 AM   #62 (permalink)
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Come up with a better law that doesn't allow illegal immigrants no matter what their race, religion, nationality, gender, etc to be at a better standing than those coming to America by legal means.

I'm for this law, something has to be done about illegal immigrants. I personally don't have an issue with illegal immigrants other than they're breaking the law, and you shouldn't be able to do that. Thought that was pretty simplistic. If you don't give incentive for people to come to America legally, what's going to stop them from coming here and being able to work, and not pay taxes, while also getting education, and healthcare benefits?
Easy, you go after the employers that are hiring illegals and make the pealties much worse and actually enforce it. They are just as much to blame for the problem as the people illegally here. It can be done without trampling on the rights of citizens and there is nothing to do with race, religion, etc...
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Old May 5th, 2010, 07:39 AM   #63 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 3devious View Post
Who would investigate a call like that? Look at the example of the Maryland law that prohibits you from even asking that I was referring to earlier. The idea that the cops are going to walk around shaking brown people down for their papers is nonsense.
Except the law allows them to do just that if they have reasonable suspicion. So what is reasonable suspision for being here illegally?
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Old May 5th, 2010, 09:38 AM   #64 (permalink)
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Easy, you go after the employers that are hiring illegals and make the pealties much worse and actually enforce it. They are just as much to blame for the problem as the people illegally here. It can be done without trampling on the rights of citizens and there is nothing to do with race, religion, etc...
Arizona already enacted a law to do just that a few years back. It's been decently effective, but this hopefully will do better.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 10:58 AM   #65 (permalink)
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Easy, you go after the employers that are hiring illegals and make the pealties much worse and actually enforce it. They are just as much to blame for the problem as the people illegally here. It can be done without trampling on the rights of citizens and there is nothing to do with race, religion, etc...
There is a real reluctance to ramp up worksite inspections and penalties for employers. Now, if you made the CEO and board members criminally liable if any of their companies hired illegals, and the law was enforced, that might make a diff.

First, though, you have to develop and implement some sort of nearly impossible to fake ID card, and most Americans would balk at that. I sure as hell do not want a cop anywhere in this country arbitrarily saying to me, "Papers, please..."

Oh...and the borders have to be closed. That isn't going to happen, either.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 12:15 PM   #66 (permalink)
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I'm all for borders being closed. With all the crazies and drug dealers out there, more focus on crazies, we need it. One or two people can do a lot of damage. As much as people hate the usa, we need giaganto electrified fences across the borders. Sad it has come to this, really, but. Yeah...
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Old May 5th, 2010, 12:47 PM   #67 (permalink)
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I am from AZ and most of the time I lurk here but some of the idiocy that is going around both in this state and the rest of the country needs to be called out. This law doesn't promote racial profiling, nobody is getting "shaken down" due to skin color. Anyone who thinks that this is what this new law permits is stupid and needs to educate themselves instead of letting someone else educate you based on whatever misguided info they have regurgitated from another source.

www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

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So are all the supporters of this law going to be so supportive when the police start asking American citizens for proof that they are American citizens? Believe me, I get that illegal is illegal, but I'm not sure that questioning Americans about their citizenship is the way to go about solving the problem.
This is actually going to be quite a problem, and I live in AZ and have read the bill instead of just drinking up whatever media personality decides to spew because they've read highlights of the bill taken out of context.

In AZ you have to provide proof of citizenship or a right to be in the country in order to get a state ID. That right there proves you are in the country legally. Some states don't have those standards. Anyone from anywhere that can just prove who they are can get an ID in other states. It would be I think a great benefit if every state required that in order to get a state ID you have to prove you are here in the country legally. Not asking too much is it? If you are here legally then you can get ID, if not, oh well, you shouldn't have committed a FEDERAL CRIME then huh?

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The law you so admire will be tossed out by the Supremes, even the current Supremes, on any of several grounds. Meanwhile, it'll be interesting to see what sort of "hit" the Arizona economy takes because of this racially motivated law.
Highly doubtful, see:

http:web.mac.com/waltermoore/waltermooresays.com/blog/entries/2010/4/30_Arizona_Police_Can_Enforce_Federal_Immigration_ Law.html

If you don't mind a couple key excerpts:

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In 1983, the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit -- you read that right, the Ninth Circuit -- concluded, in Gonzales v. City of Peoria, 722 F.2d 468, that, “Although the regulation of immigration is unquestionably an exclusive federal power, it is clear that this power does not preempt every state activity affecting aliens.” Rather, when “state enforcement activities do not impair federal regulatory interests concurrent enforcement is authorized.” The Court accordingly held “that federal law does not preclude local enforcement of the criminal provisions” of federal immigration law.
Quote:
In 2005, the United States Supreme Court held, in Muehler v. Mena, 544 U.S. 93, that police officers who handcuffed a gang member while they executed a search warrant for weapons, did not violate her rights by questioning her about her immigration status. The Court explained, “[E]ven when officers have no basis for suspecting a particular individual, they may generally ask questions of that individual; ask to examine the individual's identification; and request consent to search his or her luggage."

In 2005, the United States Court of Appeals for the Tenth Circuit confirmed again, in United States v. Hernandez-Dominguez, 1 Fed. Appx. 827, that "[a] state trooper [who has executed a lawful stop] has general investigatory authority to inquire into possible immigration violations."
And one more for sh!ts and giggles:

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In 2008, the United States District Court for the District of New Jersey concluded, in Rojas v. City of New Brunswick, 2008 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 57974, that, “As a general matter, state and local law enforcement officers are not precluded from enforcing federal statutes. Where state enforcement activities do not impair federal regulatory interests concurrent enforcement activity is authorized.” The Court accordingly held that a city and its police department had authority to investigate and arrest people for possible violations of federal immigration laws.
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I'd love to be arrested in Arizona for not carrying an ID satisfactory to the state's Gestapo. So would my lawyer. We could both retire on the judgment.
Forgive me for putting this bluntly but its Arizona Law and if it stands (which for all legal intents it is expected to) and you decide to come to this state and violate state law and you think you'll retire because you broke it then you sir are an idiot.

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Originally Posted by hakr100 View Post
Sorry, bub, but there's no federal law that requires me to have on my person while walking down the street ID acceptable to the Arizona gestapo. Arizona is intruding into areas that are the purview of the federal government. Now, since I am white, I wouldn't be able to claim skin color profiling, and it isn't likely I'd be stopped...but someone with a darker complexion could and should claim racial profiling.

I see a lot of test cases coming your way...hundreds, if not thousands of them.
See above, the 9th and 10th circuits have already made judgments that it is perfectly acceptable for local police to enforce federal laws. As for there being no Federal law requiring you to have ID on your person you are correct, but it is already a state law in most states that you carry identification on your person. If you are violating state crimes and state laws you will be held accountable at the state level, not the federal level, you too are an idiot. Not only are you not recognizing most states require persons to carry ID but your argument is a fallacy. You wont be stopped "walking down the street". Idiotic statements made by the uneducated. Read the posted links above and do everyone a favor by educating yourself.

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Originally Posted by burton71 View Post
Exactly they are telling the LEOs they are in charge of not to enforce this law.
Pretty sure that the few police chiefs that have said they wont enforce it are blowing hot air as they legally cant advise anyone to break the law. Whats funny is the main reason the chiefs are against it is because of funding for new training. Most of the actual police officers themselves are in support of the law because this is a rampant problem that isn't being solved at a federal level and they are tired of their hands being tied.

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Except the law allows them to do just that if they have reasonable suspicion. So what is reasonable suspicion for being here illegally?
This law doesn't grant police the right to question everyone the ask that they have reasonable suspicion of being here illegally to provide ID. The police can only ask if the person being questioned has already broken another law. The definition of reasonable suspicion is definitely something that is going to be hashed out and fought about.

Everyone remember please that this law is not perfect, but as AZ is suspected of having over 400,000 illegal immigrants something needed to be done and this is the best thing that could be put together. It mirrors perfectly the statutes for the Federal Law. You don't hear people asking for the federal law to be torn down, that its wrong. So why is it that when AZ takes an existing Federal Law and also makes it a state law punishable by the state are people up in arms? If the Federal Gov was able to do the job AZ never would have come up with this.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 12:57 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Just wanted to add.. in illinois, you need a lot of documentation inlduding ss card, birth ert., mail, and several other things in order to get an id here. You must also always have an id here.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 01:35 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Default illegals for 15yr moving to Colorado...lol

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Yes the Arizona economy will take a hit. Yes the law will be challenged in many courts. Yes I live in Arizona and support the bill. Why, for two main reasons. First this will cause the illegals in Arizona to start moving in large numbers to other close by states and that state's economy will begin to go in the tank providing services for the people that they haven't contributed to the tax base to pay for.
I saw a segment on the news the other night that blew my mind. A couple living in AZ illegally for 15yrs and have 10 kids. They were getting ready to move to Colorado because of the law. I agree that things need to change and I'm for getting the illegals out of the country. My question on this news story. 1. How did the news find them so quickly and the INS/ICE didn't. 2. Did they have health insurance to pay for all those kids? Also they've been here 15yrs and they still don't speak English...wtf. Colorado said something about boycotting AZ...Well looks like you're next to have a drain on your state, Enjoy.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 01:55 PM   #70 (permalink)
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INS/ICE doesnt find them because they don't care to find them. They aren't funded to find them.

This is one of my main problems with illegals living in this state. There are so many of these "interviews" that show a family of illegals that are not paying for anything that they abuse and use from the state. They don't pay taxes for healthcare, yet I sat in the ER a month ago for 4 hours with a sick child in a waiting room full of people that when they were being questioned by the translator the responses were "no they don't have any identification", "no they don't have a social security number', "no they don't have medical insurance", and "no they dont have a way to pay for services".

They don't pay taxes that help our schools yet you see stories of families with 3-8 kids or more that have children enrolled in schools. Maybe I'm an asshole but those children are taking time and attention that could be given to further benefit my children, the ones that are there legally, the ones that my money is being taken for to help pay for the school and the education provided.

People think this law is about illegal immigrants and it's not. It's about the people here legally and our money and our resources being so abused and spread out that we don't want to take it anymore. We are refusing to support and harbor those guilty of commiting federal crimes. Nobody is stating that they are more or less of a person but if they want to be here legally there are 1.1 million people that managed to make that journey last year and they contribute.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 01:56 PM   #71 (permalink)
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Thank you ballisticn8! You just saved me a ton of time. Great post!!!
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Old May 5th, 2010, 02:11 PM   #72 (permalink)
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The law you so admire will be tossed out by the Supremes, even the current Supremes, on any of several grounds. Meanwhile, it'll be interesting to see what sort of "hit" the Arizona economy takes because of this racially motivated law.
I very seriously doubt the law will be thrown out because of racial issues. The law has nothing to do with race. It is about a persons legal staus in the U.S. If it can be tossed on racial grounds, it will be interesting to see the effects that has on afirmative action.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 02:21 PM   #73 (permalink)
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ID and citizenship papers are two different things. American citizens have never had to carry any sort of proof of citizenship, ever. Now they are, at least in AZ. To be honest, I find it rather sad that so many Americans are so willing to give up their basic rights.
Handdog,

You are 100% wrong. You do not have to carry proof of citizenship in AZ, you are not even required to cary ID unless operating a motor vehicle. You are requred to verbally identify yourself if you are stopped for a violation or suspect in a crime, then and only then. An officer can not now and has never been able to ask for ID just because he thinks you might be illegal.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 02:41 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Sorry, bub, but there's no federal law that requires me to have on my person while walking down the street ID acceptable to the Arizona gestapo. Arizona is intruding into areas that are the purview of the federal government. Now, since I am white, I wouldn't be able to claim skin color profiling, and it isn't likely I'd be stopped...but someone with a darker complexion could and should claim racial profiling.

I see a lot of test cases coming your way...hundreds, if not thousands of them.
You have no clue! AZ law does not require you to carry an ID while walking down the street. Never has, and this bill will not change that.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 02:52 PM   #75 (permalink)
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If they are here illegally, then it is the fault of the U.S. government for not defending our national borders.
How much defending do they need. They have a huge fence, border patrol, camera's, seismic equipment. Do we need to start shooting on site, electrify the fence, put land mines.
You need to start thinking past your little life bubble that you live in and join the real world. I live in Idaho and we have a large population of Hispanics, Bosnians and I would welcome a law like this. If you and the other people that think we don't have a problem or think it not my problem it's the US Gov't problem think about this. There are roughly 10.8million illegal/undocumented (which ever makes you feel better), how many kids did they have that is taking away from our kids quality of learning, increasing the costs to health care and state budgets. Another little known fact is that America accepts a large number of refugees every year from different countries that will need jobs when they get here....guess who is taking those jobs?

If you/we don't start making changes and start enforcing laws when will you. Do you have a better solution. Call it racial profiling or whatever you want, I didn't spend 21yrs in the military defending this country for illegals, I did it for you the AMERICAN people to support and defend the Constitution. Ok I'll get off my soapbox....now back to the Droid info I was looking for
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Old May 5th, 2010, 05:00 PM   #76 (permalink)
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How much defending do they need. They have a huge fence, border patrol, camera's, seismic equipment. Do we need to start shooting on site, electrify the fence, put land mines.
You need to start thinking past your little life bubble that you live in and join the real world. I live in Idaho and we have a large population of Hispanics, Bosnians and I would welcome a law like this. If you and the other people that think we don't have a problem or think it not my problem it's the US Gov't problem think about this. There are roughly 10.8million illegal/undocumented (which ever makes you feel better), how many kids did they have that is taking away from our kids quality of learning, increasing the costs to health care and state budgets. Another little known fact is that America accepts a large number of refugees every year from different countries that will need jobs when they get here....guess who is taking those jobs?

If you/we don't start making changes and start enforcing laws when will you. Do you have a better solution. Call it racial profiling or whatever you want, I didn't spend 21yrs in the military defending this country for illegals, I did it for you the AMERICAN people to support and defend the Constitution. Ok I'll get off my soapbox....now back to the Droid info I was looking for
Thank you for your service, sir. I wear red on fridays as a salute to the troops to this day. Servicemen/woman are on my most highly respected list. If I wasn't severely flat footed, I would have been in the air force or marines. My salute to you, sir.

And they aren't stopping people because they look illegal, they are asking for ID and giving them enforcement power if they DO SOMETHING WRONG.
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Old May 5th, 2010, 06:04 PM   #77 (permalink)
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How much defending do they need. They have a huge fence, border patrol, camera's, seismic equipment. Do we need to start shooting on site, electrify the fence, put land mines.
You need to start thinking past your little life bubble that you live in and join the real world. I live in Idaho and we have a large population of Hispanics, Bosnians and I would welcome a law like this. If you and the other people that think we don't have a problem or think it not my problem it's the US Gov't problem think about this. There are roughly 10.8million illegal/undocumented (which ever makes you feel better), how many kids did they have that is taking away from our kids quality of learning, increasing the costs to health care and state budgets. Another little known fact is that America accepts a large number of refugees every year from different countries that will need jobs when they get here....guess who is taking those jobs?

If you/we don't start making changes and start enforcing laws when will you. Do you have a better solution. Call it racial profiling or whatever you want, I didn't spend 21yrs in the military defending this country for illegals, I did it for you the AMERICAN people to support and defend the Constitution. Ok I'll get off my soapbox....now back to the Droid info I was looking for
Just a FYI, Bosnians are not illegal, they are political refugees (like Cubans).
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Old May 5th, 2010, 07:17 PM   #78 (permalink)
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if your not a legal citizen, you have no rights. so dont act like you do.

my 2 cents
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Old May 6th, 2010, 12:01 AM   #79 (permalink)
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if your not a legal citizen, you have no rights. so dont act like you do.

my 2 cents
This.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 04:12 AM   #80 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by GixxerMan51 View Post
if your not a legal citizen, you have no rights. so dont act like you do.

my 2 cents
Your two cents will not get you far in a court of law.

In Wong Wing v. U S, 163 U.S. 228 (1896), the Supreme Court stated (in citing a
previous case and affirming 14th Amendment rights):

“The fourteenth amendment to the constitution is not confined to the protection of
citizens. It says: 'Nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty or property
without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the
equal protection of the law.' These provisions are universal in their application to
all persons within the territorial jurisdiction, without regard to any differences of
race, of color, or nationality; and the equal protection of the laws is a pledge of
the protection of equal laws.' Applying this reasoning to the fifth and sixth
amendments, it must be concluded that all persons within the territory of the
United States are entitled to the protection guarantied by those amendments,
and that even aliens shall not be held to answer for a capital or other infamous
crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, nor be deprived of
life, liberty, or property without due process of law. “

What I cited above is not the only example of Supreme Court rulings on "rights." Even illegal aliens have "rights" in this country. They may not be the same as rights afforded legal citizens or residents, but they still have rights.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 09:14 AM   #81 (permalink)
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Default Re: Arizona immigration law

hakr makes one good point so far in this discussion. anyone in this country legally or not does have basic rights protected by our constitution. they wont have rights that legal citizens do but our constitution protects human rights, etc.

I also stand corrected, but partially. ID is not "required by law" in AZ, but you can be held and charged with failure to provide indentification by a police officer until they can verify who you are. One of those catch 22's I guess. Its not a problem for me, concealed carry weapons permit does require you to have state ID. ;-)



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Old May 6th, 2010, 09:27 AM   #82 (permalink)
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Both sides of my family are immigrants. My grandfather was struggling in Italy, right after the war; Times were terrible, but he wanted a better future for his new wife, and a better place to one day start his family. He needed to go to America, but he did it LEGALLY. My grandfather tells me all the crazy stories of what he had to do to come over here, bottom line is, he had pride and he was determined to enter this country legally because that is the right thing to do.

It was a challenge, and maybe it could have been easier if he came America illegally, but he was a good man, and wasn't going to break the law.

America welcomes immigrants more than many countries do. We provide work for everyone, we provide for a better tomorrow.

However, many people travel illegally to the US to escape crimes, and this needs to be put to an end. I understand that many people who are trying to cross the border aren't murders and drug dealers, however illegally crossing the US border is ILLEGAL.

Long story short, we welcome you here with open arms, but do it legally. It has nothing to do with race for I am not singling out Hispanics, but more so the illegality of it all.

If you did something illegal, wouldn't YOU expect to pay the price?
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Old May 6th, 2010, 09:53 AM   #83 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by GixxerMan51 View Post
if your not a legal citizen, you have no rights. so dont act like you do.

my 2 cents
The US consitution disagrees with you.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 10:13 AM   #84 (permalink)
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The US consitution disagrees with you.
Ooh, this should be interesting. I said at the beginning of this thread that ok happy for Arizona, and I'm hopeful 49 more states will follow suit. All this is is a law, similar to the federal one already in place except for we have a gutless government unwilling to enforce its own mandates, therefore Arizona has made it a state level crime as well as a federal one, similar to almost every law out there to be here illegally.

As with any other wonderful piece of writing, the Target audience is clearly defined. The first sentence, "we the people of the UNITED STATES..." I think is pretty obvious who is inclusive to these guidelines. The founders, smarter and wiser than all of us did not want nor foresee the neutered nitwits we call our elected officials be so irresponsible withthe gifts they fought and died for. I'm sure, all of you who are sympathetic to the plight of these immigrants would be happy to exchange your place here, and everything you worked for and earned through your own devices and faculties, and let them have it, sight unseen and take their place in wherever it is they came from. Otherwise, your logic and your argument is inherently flawed and is nothing more that more liberal guilt. We don't need any more of that. It is the very thing that has gotten us to this point in the first place. That is all.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 10:15 AM   #85 (permalink)
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And by the way, good to see you back IOWA.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 10:15 AM   #86 (permalink)
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The US consitution disagrees with you.
You couldn't be more wrong, but I'll play. Show me where the constitution gives you rights without being a citizen.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 10:21 AM   #87 (permalink)
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Default Re: Arizona immigration law

Crude,

Quite obviously I'm on my phone right now or I'd pull up facts for you but the 14th ammendment was already mentioned. Might want to start there. ;-)

And if you see my other posts you'll know I'm not against this bill, just fyi.



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Old May 6th, 2010, 12:41 PM   #88 (permalink)
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You couldn't be more wrong, but I'll play. Show me where the constitution gives you rights without being a citizen.
14th ammendment...try reading it. Thanks for playing.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 03:59 PM   #89 (permalink)
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14th ammendment...try reading it. Thanks for playing.
You quoted part of the fourteenth amendment above somewhere, but like most disingenuous people, you left out the major part of it, who the fourteenth amendment is applicable to.

Amendment 14 sec 1, "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."

It doesn't read, all persons, regardless of where they came from or how thy entered this country, legally or not, shall henceforth be granted all privileges afforded by the constitution forthwith.

Thank YOU for playing, or trying to.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 04:23 PM   #90 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by soulfetcher13 View Post
You quoted part of the fourteenth amendment above somewhere, but like most disingenuous people, you left out the major part of it, who the fourteenth amendment is applicable to.

Amendment 14 sec 1, "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."

It doesn't read, all persons, regardless of where they came from or how thy entered this country, legally or not, shall henceforth be granted all privileges afforded by the constitution forthwith.

Thank YOU for playing, or trying to.
LOL you do realize the quote above about the 14th ammendment is part of a SCOTUS ruling correct?

I suggest you do some reading up on case law surronding the 14th ammendment before making yourself look more foolish.

Here are some of note to pay attention to: Yick Wo v. Hopkins (1886), Wong Wing v. U.S. (1896), Plyler v. Doe (1982).

But since I know that you won't bother to look those up here is really all you need to know:

"In rejecting the argument that the "equal" protections of the 14th Ammendment are limited to U.S. citizens, the Supreme Court has referred to language used by the Congressional Committee that drafted the amendment:
"The last two clauses of the first section of the amendment disable a State from depriving not merely a citizen of the United States, but any person, whoever he may be, of life, liberty, or property without due process of law, or from denying to him the equal protection of the laws of the State. This abolishes all class legislation in the States and does away with the injustice of subjecting one caste of persons to a code not applicable to another. . . . It (the 14th ammendment)will, if adopted by the States, forever disable every one of them from passing laws trenching upon those fundamental rights and privileges which pertain to citizens of the United States, and to all persons who may happen to be within their jurisdiction."

The only disingenuous (or just uneducated) persosn here is you.

Thanks for playing, but sorry you loose.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 04:43 PM   #91 (permalink)
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Without due process of the law, class distinction. 1886 huh. Wasn't that about the time Karl Marx wrote your favorite book? Is this due process enough for you?

Judge- Did you enter this country legally and do you have supporting documentation?

Illegal immigrant- uh, no (assuming they speak English and don't need a tax payer funded translator)

Then under the fourteenth amendment, to be fair, you are hereby deported from this country and your property will be seized, and held for a period not to exceed one year so you can get your affairs in order and come back. Once you have returned legally, you may claim possession of your property after you have reimbursed the state for all expenditures incurred by holding your stuff. If not, we will auction it off. Or you can forfeit your property now and just return to your native country.

Illegal alien- I'm going to call the aclu, the southern poverty law center, msnbc(state tv), and burton71.

For crying out loud, when do you people stop feeling the guilt and return to pride in this country instead of just giving it away. This is about our country, and we cannot afford to support illegally anymore. From all the entitlements to healthcare to education to crime, no country can survive this. So find your obscure court rulings, they do not refute the math.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 04:59 PM   #92 (permalink)
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I was proven wrong but I don't want to admit it so I'm going to type a lot garbage and add in some incorrect insults while I'm at because I'm ignorant to the fact that people against this bill are not for illegal immigration and are actually for the right of US citizens.
Ok now that that is out of the way we can move on.


Quote:
For crying out loud, when do you people stop feeling the guilt and return to pride in this country instead of just giving it away. This is about our country, and we cannot afford to support illegally anymore. From all the entitlements to healthcare to education to crime, no country can survive this. So find your obscure court rulings, they do not refute the math.
Obscure court rulings...LOL. I guess I was correct about the uneducated thing.

I love how you are so willing to trample on the consitution (and related SCOTUS rulings) in one sentence and then say people need to return to pride about this country in another. Hypocrite, thy name is Soulfetcher13.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 05:00 PM   #93 (permalink)
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Here's the real question here. Why would you even want illegal aliens here to drain resources we pay for with our taxes, causing taxes to be higher, and then they go and steal our jobs, and send the money out of the country to bring in more illegals. Why would you want something like that?
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Old May 6th, 2010, 05:07 PM   #94 (permalink)
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Here's the real question here. Why would you even want illegal aliens here to drain resources we pay for with our taxes, causing taxes to be higher, and then they go and steal our jobs, and send the money out of the country to bring in more illegals. Why would you want something like that?
NEWSFLASH...opposing the Arizona law does not mean one supports illegal immigration.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 05:13 PM   #95 (permalink)
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NEWSFLASH...opposing the Arizona law does not mean one supports illegal immigration.
That's hyprocracy(sp?)


Why would you oppose the new law if you didn't support illegal immigration?
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Old May 6th, 2010, 05:16 PM   #96 (permalink)
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That's hyprocracy(sp?)
LOL, wrong.

Quote:
Why would you oppose the new law if you didn't support illegal immigration?
Because of the laws impact on US CITIZENS and it does next to nothing to address the root cause of the problem.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 05:34 PM   #97 (permalink)
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Umm what impact on us citizens. It only affects you if your illegal
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Old May 6th, 2010, 05:42 PM   #98 (permalink)
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Umm what impact on us citizens. It only affects you if your illegal
Sadly I think you honestly believe that.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 09:41 PM   #99 (permalink)
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Ok now that that is out of the way we can move on.


Obscure court rulings...LOL. I guess I was correct about the uneducated thing.

I love how you are so willing to trample on the consitution (and related SCOTUS rulings) in one sentence and then say people need to return to pride about this country in another. Hypocrite, thy name is Soulfetcher13.
Your sanctimony isn't very becoming, and if you truly want to make this about education l, you may get your feelings hurt. But this is not the point of this thread. You say opposition to this law does not assume you are pro amnesty, however your posts say otherwise. Like I said in post 84, you are or seem very sympathetic to the plight of the illegal, you obviously don't mind propping them up with your taxes. I suspect you hated bank bailouts, as did I, well this is no different. So you should have no problem forfeiting your spot here in favor of another getting amnesty, or like all of you good liberals, you are all about talking but not willing to set the example. Your arguments are fatally flawed in logic and scope. You smack the doubletalk that would make a Party member excited. Possibly you are a spokesmouth for code pink and/or moveon.org, but ok. I served 10 years in the army, 15 months in Iraq and 3 other peace keeping deployments. I have a family and a country I both adore and am proud of and will be damned if all of you open border lack of national sovereignty one world government hacks ruin this place more than you already have. You tipped your hand earlier and that's fine, but you are a Marxist. If you don't like what's going on in Arizona, don't go there. Overwhelmingly the people of Arizona did want this. Ever wonder why, they are #2 in kidnappings behind who? Mexico City.

The fact still remains, this country cannot support the illegitimate in this country, and if you think we can, don't talk about it be about it. Sponsor several of them yourself.
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Old May 6th, 2010, 10:34 PM   #100 (permalink)
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Sadly I think you honestly believe that.
Lol why are you crying wolf when nothings been dne yet? Seriously? I mean, they aren't randomly stopping people on the street and asking for papers, and all this law does is allow enforcement of other protections guidelines set in place by the federal government.

You remember what happened to the boy that cried wolf right? Well that's what your doing.
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