Easy, you go after the employers that are hiring illegals and make the pealties much worse and actually enforce it. They are just as much to blame for the problem as the people illegally here. It can be done without trampling on the rights of citizens and there is nothing to do with race, religion, etc...
That covers people that would come here to work illegally, what about the rest? Also people would still complain about that trampling their rights. The thing though is do you really have rights when you come here and break laws? Prisoners in the system don't have the "right" to leave their cell, and other rights are restricted.
Anyways that still doesn't solve the problem, and people are always going to complain about it. The thing though is something has to be done about people coming in here illegally.
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Your sanctimony isn't very becoming, and if you truly want to make this about education l, you may get your feelings hurt. But this is not the point of this thread. You say opposition to this law does not assume you are pro amnesty, however your posts say otherwise.
Wrong, but thats not surprising anymore based on you posts.
Quote:
Like I said in post 84, you are or seem very sympathetic to the plight of the illegal, you obviously don't mind propping them up with your taxes.
Being for US CITIZENS rights is not being sympathetic to the plight of illegals. You seriously can't be this dense.
Quote:
I suspect you hated bank bailouts, as did I, well this is no different. So you should have no problem forfeiting your spot here in favor of another getting amnesty, or like all of you good liberals, you are all about talking but not willing to set the example.
LOL at calling me a liberal. Ah the party cry of the neo con tea bagger..."if you don't like it leave." Sorry but no, that is not the foundation that this country was built on.
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Your arguments are fatally flawed in logic and scope. You smack the doubletalk that would make a Party member excited. Possibly you are a spokesmouth for code pink and/or moveon.org, but ok.
LOL, congrats on continuely failing to put a label on.
Quote:
I served 10 years in the army, 15 months in Iraq and 3 other peace keeping deployments. I have a family and a country I both adore and am proud of and will be damned if all of you open border lack of national sovereignty one world government hacks ruin this place more than you already have.
So you adore and are proud of this country...yet are willing to ignore..and are in fact ignorant...of what our consititution says and the rights we as US CITIZENS have. Gotta love the picking and choosing of what parts of the consititution you support. Go buy another Palin poster.
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You tipped your hand earlier and that's fine, but you are a Marxist.
Do you even know what a Marxist is? LOL.
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If you don't like what's going on in Arizona, don't go there.
Sorry, standing up for citizens right expands beyond state borders.
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The fact still remains, this country cannot support the illegitimate in this country, and if you think we can, don't talk about it be about it. Sponsor several of them yourself.
If you could actually read you would see that what I have posted DOES NOT SUPPORT ILLEGALS in any way shape of form. Good try though.
Last edited by burton71; May 7th, 2010 at 07:38 AM.
That covers people that would come here to work illegally, what about the rest? Also people would still complain about that trampling their rights.
Jobs are the number one reason that illegals come to this country. And no it does not trample any rights at all, especially in Arizona since they passed a law requiring bussiness to use the E-Verify system, to inspect, audit, and harshly punish business.
Quote:
The thing though is do you really have rights when you come here and break laws? Prisoners in the system don't have the "right" to leave their cell, and other rights are restricted.
Every person on US soil has rights as outlined in the 14th Ammendment. But this isn't about illegals rights...this is about US CITIZENS right.
Quote:
Anyways that still doesn't solve the problem, and people are always going to complain about it. The thing though is something has to be done about people coming in here illegally.
I agree, and this law is not the answer.
Securing the border, going after businesses more harshly, stream line the legal citizenship and work visa process, etc... All better and more viable solutions.
Lol why are you crying wolf when nothings been dne yet? Seriously? I mean, they aren't randomly stopping people on the street and asking for papers, and all this law does is allow enforcement of other protections guidelines set in place by the federal government.
You do realize this law hasn't actually gone into effect yet right? So of course they aren't stopping anybody.
However, the wonderful people of Arizona don't seem to realize that and have been flooding the police departments (and 911) with calls of "There is a group of Mexicans standing on the corner you need to check it out!"
Last edited by burton71; May 7th, 2010 at 07:13 AM.
Trident tried asking nicely, so consider this a formal warning. Any further overtly racist or otherwise discriminatory comments will result in the thread being closed and bans issued.
excalty where does it say in the constitution that a illegal has rights? its for the citzens of the great nation of Untied States of America
This is why voting should require a pre-vote test. To qualify you should know basic aspects of our government, the constitution and our political system. I would be nice if voters knew more about the candidates then what the TV feeds them also, but politicians change their minds so fast I doubt that really matters.
OF course I'm joking about the test but I'm not joking that some voters shouldn't vote.
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You do realize this law hasn't actually gone into effect yet right? So of course they aren't stopping anybody.
However, the wonderful people of Arizona don't seem to realize that and have been flooding the police departments (and 911) with calls of "There is a group of Mexicans standing on the corner you need to check it out!"
Now there's an idea...a few hundred calls a day to local police departments claiming there is "a group of illegal aliens on the corner you need to check out" ought to drive the cops nuts.
How about hiring groups of legals who only "look" illegal? They could be paid to mill around on street corners in their leisure time, doing their best to look like illegals...
However, the wonderful people of Arizona don't seem to realize that and have been flooding the police departments (and 911) with calls of "There is a group of Mexicans standing on the corner you need to check it out!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by hakr100
Now there's an idea...a few hundred calls a day to local police departments claiming there is "a group of illegal aliens on the corner you need to check out" ought to drive the cops nuts.
How about hiring groups of legals who only "look" illegal? They could be paid to mill around on street corners in their leisure time, doing their best to look like illegals...
this... these two... lol... wow... gonna be hard to keep this no personal attacks thing in check since the stupid in some people keep shining. I have to assume its stupidity since I have posted so many sources for them to educate themselves on the law and they still make statements such as the ones above.
I've already done quite the job making this hakr guy look like quite the hack job by posting relevant data contradicting almost every statement he has made, even providing source links to supreme court rulings and to the law itself. As I've already said, you really need to read the law instead of regurgitating what your favorite celebrity/athlete/fake-reporter/blogger/illegal/talk show host has told you about this bill (hell maybe your dog/cat/parrot/fish told you what this law says since obviously you have no clue). Some of the statements made on here prove the idiocy levels are quite high since some of you seem to have no clue how this bill works.
Hackr and Burton: YOU CANNOT BE ARRESTED FOR STANDING AROUND "LOOKING ILLEGAL" , I know, its really hard to believe that, but since neither of you have read the law let me re-iterate that for you since you continue to make such idiotic posts...
Burton, please post up any source of information that proves that residents of AZ are calling up the police departments stating what you have posted above, I dare you. Please also post where you live (city, state, etc). To post such a blatant lie is ridiculous.
I live in Phoenix, AZ. I have friends who are sheriffs officers, DPS, Phoenix Police, Mesa Police, Avondale, Glendale, and Goodyear Police and they support the bill as I've said before because lack of follow up by Federal Ice agents has tied their hands. Contrary to your posts none of them state that calls about groups of illegals have magically started raining in.
Contrary to your completely idiotic post police are not being inundated with calls about illegals or Mexicans standing on corners, nor is this what this law is about. What some people fail to remember is that illegals have committed a federal crime. I don't give a crap whether they did it to make a better lives for themselves or not because under that logic why don't you go rob a bank then ask for no punishment because all you wanted to do was make a better life for yourself and your family.
Some people don't realize that Arizona has a really large Canadian illegal presence here as well. Get this, they come here because their country has such a screwed up health care system in order to get decent treatment they come here and pay out of pocket, hmm, we wont even get into that subject to open up that can of worms.
Once again, read the law before you make such blatantly stupid posts like there should be decoys hired to stand around in groups looking illegal. Unless you are in the process of committing a crime you cannot be questioned. If you have committed a crime and then you are questioned and found to have committed the federal and now state law by being in this country illegally then oh well, you should have come over the legal way.
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Ok, so it looks like San Francisco is boycotting AZ, thats [deleted by Mod.]. Oops, did I just write that, well go ahead and insert a rimshot here. (both puns intended)
L.A. is boycotting AZ too, but they are only interested in boycotting whats easy. What do I mean by that? Well the subsidized power they buy from our power plants at a cheap rate isnt something they are willing to cancel because the population of L.A. would have to pay more in energy costs and even though they'd like to boycott anything and everything out of AZ, well, paying more money, thats just not worth actually boycotting now is it? ***king hypocrites.
There was a cancellation of a convention by a bunch of lawyers here but the cancellation fee was actually equal to the estimated increase in revenue they were expected to bring here, oh no, no loss there.
And baseball, lol, Bud Selig announced today that there would be no cancellation or action to move the MLB All Star game out of AZ.
To everyone that thinks this state is racist and backwards I laugh at you. Where was your contempt and hatred for the federal law? Nobody ever cried foul about federal immigration laws and our law mirrors the federal law at a state level so our police can act instead of having thier hands tied.
Yep, everytime I have called anyone out in this thread there has been absolutely no response. Not one person has taken the time out to compare the law as it was written in our state to the law at the federal level, still regurgitating what your favorite propoganda site has spewed at you.
/end thread
Last edited by Slug; May 13th, 2010 at 06:52 PM.
Reason: See Forum Rules for "terms NOT to use", please
The mayor of Phoenix says four major conventions have canceled out out his city, and either 12 or 14 more are planning to do the same. The GOP was planning to hold its 2012 convention in Arizona, but is going to Tampa, instead. There are estimates that the law will end up costing Phoenix and Arizona more than $100 million they badly need.
The federal court cases aimed at repealing these new laws should be interesting.
The mayor of Phoenix says four major conventions have canceled out out his city, and either 12 or 14 more are planning to do the same. The GOP was planning to hold its 2012 convention in Arizona, but is going to Tampa, instead. There are estimates that the law will end up costing Phoenix and Arizona more than $100 million they badly need.
The federal court cases aimed at repealing these new laws should be interesting.
Yeah and how many hundredS of millions will be saved from not treating illegals in the er or the amount of jobs going back to unemployed citizens that actually pay taxes back into the system.
How would you naysayers feel if you or your wife or children got seriously injured by an illegal or even killed and you cant do a thing about it because he or she has no insurance so no help for medical bills, funeral costs, or loss ofwork compensation because am illegal can't get insurance.
Or your son can't find his first job because illegals have them all.
What if that illegal rapes your daughter, the worst that would happen is he would get deported. Do you support that?
Yeah and how many hundredS of millions will be saved from not treating illegals in the er or the amount of jobs going back to unemployed citizens that actually pay taxes back into the system.
How would you naysayers feel if you or your wife or children got seriously injured by an illegal or even killed and you cant do a thing about it because he or she has no insurance so no help for medical bills, funeral costs, or loss ofwork compensation because am illegal can't get insurance.
Or your son can't find his first job because illegals have them all.
What if that illegal rapes your daughter, the worst that would happen is he would get deported. Do you support that?
I sure don't.
How would I feel? About the same as if a "legal" was the perpetrator.
Obviously, you want to shut the door to illegals. If so, how much more are you willing to pay in taxes to close all our borders, shut down the student and traveler VISAs we hand out to hundreds of thousands of tourists from all over the world, and of course, hire enough federal prosecutors to seek out and prosecute all employers who hire illegals? And how would you accomplish that? With a federal identity card?
"Papers, please..."
What is *your* rational, complete solution to the illegals problem?
What the mayor of phoenix fails to mention is the cancellation fees for those conventions are upwards of $150,000, each.
He fails to mention a lot of things, like how his girlfriend and her company were awarded multiple contracts with the city without any bids put in and how she was also placed into an advisory position where she was personally paid out of his re-election campaign upwards of $100,000 when he cant run for re-election.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hakr100
Obviously, you want to shut the door to illegals. If so, how much more are you willing to pay in taxes to close all our borders, shut down the student and traveler VISAs we hand out to hundreds of thousands of tourists from all over the world, and of course, hire enough federal prosecutors to seek out and prosecute all employers who hire illegals? And how would you accomplish that? With a federal identity card?
<rhetoric snipped>
What is *your* rational, complete solution to the illegals problem?
We don't need to shut down visas because those people can prove that they have business here, why would we shut that down?
Actually enforcing the rules would go a long way towards reducing the problem. Companies in certain categories have to have I-9 forms on file for all of their employees. Why limit that requirement? When you apply to go to college, you are expected to have a social security number but too many institutions are too lax on this. Cut their federal funding if they want to turn a blind eye to that nonsense. The same should apply to public schools.
If you want to operate a vehicle legally around here, you are supposed to have 2 forms of ID and proof of residency. People should push for their state to require the same kind of ID you need to obtain a passport to get your license.
The problem is that entering the country illegaly is just the start of a long chain of fraud. In the cases where we would catch and deport them, we don't need to racially profile. We would scrutinizing them because they were already doing something wrong.
How would I feel? About the same as if a "legal" was the perpetrator.
Obviously, you want to shut the door to illegals. If so, how much more are you willing to pay in taxes to close all our borders, shut down the student and traveler VISAs we hand out to hundreds of thousands of tourists from all over the world, and of course, hire enough federal prosecutors to seek out and prosecute all employers who hire illegals? And how would you accomplish that? With a federal identity card?
"Papers, please..."
What is *your* rational, complete solution to the illegals problem?
Oh, so if someone does these terrible things to you or someone you love, instead of sending them to jail you'd really let them have their freedom in another country? wtf?
What does cracking down on ILLEGAL immigrants have to do with LEGAL student VISAs and LEGAL travelers? They did things the right way. I have no trouble with them being here.
Why would you support an illegal taking a job from US citizens, who DOESN'T pay taxes, AND sends the money OUT of the country, to bring MORE illegals in to do the same thing?
Seems to me giving citizens who do things legally and the right way jobs and pay taxes back into the system and (for the most part) keep the money IN the country would be alot more productive.
What does cracking down on ILLEGAL immigrants have to do with LEGAL student VISAs and LEGAL travelers? They did things the right way. I have no trouble with them being here.
You and others apparently are unaware of the huge number of visitors who come here legally on visitor or student visas and stay illegally.
What the mayor of phoenix fails to mention is the cancellation fees for those conventions are upwards of $150,000, each.
For a large group canceling a convention, $150,000 is chump change. I am a member of an organization holding a convention later this year. I read somewhere that between the organization and the members who attend, we'll drop three to five million dollars in the convention city. I doubt the site committee will be picking anywhere in Arizona for future meetings.
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Originally Posted by hakr100
You and others apparently are unaware of the huge number of visitors who come here legally on visitor or student visas and stay illegally.
Well, that is when we need to crack down on them once they stay illegally. They still should need to have a current visa to get the services. No one in their right mind wants to discourage foreign participation, we just don't want to give the nonsense that happens after they start breaking the law a pass. Curtailing visiting the country and student visas is too similar to your fear that we'll start rounding up all of the brown people at 7-11. Neither of those are going to happen.
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For a large group canceling a convention, $150,000 is chump change. I am a member of an organization holding a convention later this year. I read somewhere that between the organization and the members who attend, we'll drop three to five million dollars in the convention city. I doubt the site committee will be picking anywhere in Arizona for future meetings.
I think it's funny how only Lib****s and Lib**** run cities are "boycotting" AZ. Ridiculous. Why don't get give asylum to the taliban and Al Quieda while we are at it.
Last edited by Slug; May 14th, 2010 at 06:56 PM.
Reason: Please don't use derogatory terms
I think it's funny how only Lib****s and Lib**** run cities are "boycotting" AZ. Ridiculous. Why don't get give asylum to the taliban and Al Quieda while we are at it.
Once you figure out this connection in your mind, perhaps you'll explain it to those of us who only have two college degrees.
Last edited by Slug; May 14th, 2010 at 06:57 PM.
Reason: Quoting derogatory terms
So to all those who oppose the law, what exactly about it do you oppose? Not "it's racist" I would like to know what part of the law do you oppose. Here's the link to the actual bill so you can quote the part you don't like: http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf
Originally Posted by hakr100 Once you figure out this connection in your mind, perhaps you'll explain it to those of us who only have two college degrees.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IOWA
What, in culinary arts? lol
No, but I don't see why such a degree would be déclassé. What are your college/university degrees in?
Originally Posted by hakr100 Once you figure out this connection in your mind, perhaps you'll explain it to those of us who only have two college degrees.
No, but I don't see why such a degree would be déclassé. What are your college/university degrees in?
Liberal arts lo. With a minor in graphic/web design. But I don't see how a degree in anything but law would help in this situation.
But I did seriously have someone say they were smarter then me when I was younger. I asked what it was in and guess what he said.... lol
If it means anything about the intentions of this bill... Arizona passed a bill that BANNED ethnic studies in public schools... specifically targetting latino studies.
I wonder exactly how many cities and whole states will boycott Arizona. I think it will have a dramatic effect on Arizona's entire tourism... especially dealing with Grand Canyon. It will definitely hurt Arizona more than Arizona's residents boycotting the boycotters. I don't know of any reason FOR ME to go to Arizona other than Grand Canyon, but I've already been there. It's an absolutely beautiful national park that everyone should go to disregarding the whole immigration law commotion.
I just thin the federal gov should put something in place to enable local authorities to do something about it. That'll end all the boycottsd
I thought conservatives were against more intrusion into state and local governmental affairs by the feds, but you're calling for more of it, by "enabling local authorities to do something about (illegals)?
There's nothing preventing Arizona state and local authorities from turning over illegals they arrest to border and immigration authorities.
I thought conservatives were against more intrusion into state and local governmental affairs by the feds, but you're calling for more of it, by "enabling local authorities to do something about (illegals)?
There's nothing preventing Arizona state and local authorities from turning over illegals they arrest to border and immigration authorities.
ok mr. "I just want to argue for the sake of argueing"
How exactly is it more intrusion by allowing enforcement of already exisiting (and needed) laws by more policing agencies, who should have had the power in the first place?
ok mr. "I just want to argue for the sake of argueing"
How exactly is it more intrusion by allowing enforcement of already exisiting (and needed) laws by more policing agencies, who should have had the power in the first place?
"Enabling" implies some sort of legislation. Believe it or not, in this country, for the federal government to "enable," there usually has to be a law that makes the "enabling" legal. Or perhaps you are suggesting the federal govenrment should "turn the other cheek" if a state is engaging in activities that might be unConstitutional or illegal under various federal procedural rules.
You may think that debating the points of law is arguing for the sake of argument, but I don't.
As I stated, Arizona state and local authorities have the ability to turn over illegals to federal authorities for legal disposition. What the "new" Arizona legislation does is play to the fears of the right. But, of course, this is an election year.
If it means anything about the intentions of this bill... Arizona passed a bill that BANNED ethnic studies in public schools... specifically targetting latino studies.
Nothing wrong with that. A public school shouldn't teach a specific ethnic study. That's what college and further self funded education is about. Public schools should give you your basic education to make it through life. It will still teach "Ethnic Studies" based upon American History, such as the Civil Rights Movement for blacks and women, because that was a period of American History. Targeting a specific ethnicity shouldn't be in public schools.....public schools, that's the key point.
Nothing wrong with that. A public school shouldn't teach a specific ethnic study. That's what college and further self funded education is about. Public schools should give you your basic education to make it through life. It will still teach "Ethnic Studies" based upon American History, such as the Civil Rights Movement for blacks and women, because that was a period of American History. Targeting a specific ethnicity shouldn't be in public schools.....public schools, that's the key point.
"The new law prohibits schools from teaching classes that promote "resentment" toward a race or class of people, that are designed primarily for pupils of a particular ethnic group, that promote the overthrow of the government or that "advocate ethnic solidarity instead of the treatment of pupils as individuals." But by most accounts, the courses in question aren't really teaching such things, and they're open to all students — black, white and Latino." - LA Times
In that case, there should be a ban on European History AP and British Literature AP, ESPECIALLY Brit Lit AP. There's a whole lot of resentment going on there.
Public schools should really just give a "basic" education? How "basic"? Should the arts be thrown out because it's not necessary? Should all foreign languages be thrown out because it's not necessary since "All Americans should know English"? I wish public schools have the funding and space to be able to offer as many diverse classes as possible, like a university. I wish my school was able to offer Chemistry AP and Environmental Science AP, but I guess that's too "advanced" for a public school.
Dude...you took "basic" way too literal. And world history should be taught. I personally don't think the study of a race of people should be taught in public schools.
Dude...you took "basic" way too literal. And world history should be taught. I personally don't think the study of a race of people should be taught in public schools.
What do you mean by "basic" then? It can be interpreted is MANY different ways. When I think of basic, I think of not having any AP classes or any classes that are deemed "unnecessary" for preparation for life. Calculus BC AP definitely isn't basic and so isn't Art History AP (god that was a difficult class).
I've read the bill... and what I exactly don't understand is Section A 2 and Section F. They seem to contradict each other in that if there is a class on lets say... WW2, wouldn't that violate Section A 2? But wait... go down to Section F, and it's permitted. Why is Arizona selectively choosing what is allowed to bypass Section A 2? And now I'm wondering... how does latino studies in public schools violate the bill if it cooperates with Section E and Section F?
What do you mean by "basic" then? It can be interpreted is MANY different ways. When I think of basic, I think of not having any AP classes or any classes that are deemed "unnecessary" for preparation for life. Calculus BC AP definitely isn't basic and so isn't Art History AP (god that was a difficult class).
I've read the bill... and what I exactly don't understand is Section A 2 and Section F. They seem to contradict each other in that if there is a class on lets say... WW2, wouldn't that violate Section A 2? But wait... go down to Section F, and it's permitted. Why is Arizona selectively choosing what is allowed to bypass Section A 2? And now I'm wondering... how does latino studies in public schools violate the bill if it cooperates with Section E and Section F?
I'm puzzled
A bit off topic but I never liked history. Never really interested me what some guy did 20000 years ago. I've always been a math/science guy mmyself. I loved me some pysics. Too bad I don't remember it lol.
, I know, its really hard to believe that, but since neither of you have read the law let me re-iterate that for you since you continue to make such idiotic posts...
