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Old July 5th, 2010, 03:01 PM   #51 (permalink)
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I think you're making a very different argument here than I was.

The person I was talking about isn't a 'cheap bastard' in the same way you describe the Senator, he simply has very low outgoings by virtue of his prudent lifestyle.

The argument you seem to making with regards to the Senator, is one of how taxes already collected are being mismanaged, not how to best collect them.
The fact that the person is an official isn't as much the issue as the fact that the individual could afford a company that provides the services that she insisted on getting for free. A significantly less outrageous example would be the founder of JC Penney. He would drive a ridiculously convoluted route just to avoid paying a bridge toll. The toll was 10 cents, but that wasn't a pitance to the average person back then, but it certainly was to him yet he refused to pay. A sales tax wouldn't work on people like that.

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Old July 5th, 2010, 03:06 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Admittedly that would save a lot in taxes, but how many people just wouldn't be able to afford any treatment? Say you can't afford health insurance, and you hit by an uninsured driver; who pays for the treatment you received? or would you not receive treatment until payment had been made/assured by somebody?

A free at the point of use, State funded healthcare safety-net, is, I think, fundamental to a civilized society.
In my state, the uninsured driver would get sued whether the victim had health insurance or not. They also have to pay a fee that goes into a fund that pays for that sort of thing if they wish not to buy insurance here. (The offender would still be sued, but the fee is non-negotiable.)

How is it a safety net if it is free at the point of use?
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Old July 5th, 2010, 06:17 PM   #53 (permalink)
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What do you mean, completely remove government from healthcare?

Admittedly that would save a lot in taxes, but how many people just wouldn't be able to afford any treatment? Say you can't afford health insurance, and you hit by an uninsured driver; who pays for the treatment you received? or would you not receive treatment until payment had been made/assured by somebody?

A free at the point of use, State funded healthcare safety-net, is, I think, fundamental to a civilized society.
As someone mentioned, here ( and in all states I think ) vehicle insurance would take care of that. We don't need the government to dictate affairs of medical treatment. Who are they to determine what treatments people are able/unable to receive. No... instead they need to regulate the insurance companies(properly) instead of trying to be an all-provider for the nation.
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Old July 6th, 2010, 03:02 AM   #54 (permalink)
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In my state, the uninsured driver would get sued whether the victim had health insurance or not...
You assume that the driver at fault is identified, and that the hospital is prepared to supply it's services without any guarantee of being paid. At least lawyers will be kept in gainful employment I guess, even if society's health care turns to crap!

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...They also have to pay a fee that goes into a fund that pays for that sort of thing if they wish not to buy insurance here...
Not really sure what you're meaning here; who has to pay a fee? Anybody who doesn't choose to buy personal health insurance has to pay into a fund? Who then administers the fund, and isn't that in itself like insurance?

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...How is it a safety net if it is free at the point of use?
Under a model like the NHS in the UK, for example, treatment is free at the point of delivery, and paid for through taxation. So if you fall ill you know that your treatment will be paid for. Yes you can in addition choose to buy additional private treatment, which will mean perhaps less of a wait for an operation etc., but for the most part your treatment is assured.

In the example of the uninsured driver above, you get your treatment without the worry of who's going to pay.
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Old July 6th, 2010, 03:15 AM   #55 (permalink)
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...vehicle insurance would take care of that... ...they need to regulate the insurance companies...
What sort of regulation would you put in place in the vehicle insurance industry that would assure the payment to a pedestrian hit by an unidentified driver?

I'm vaguely aware that insurance isn't an absolute requirement in all states in the US; is that right? In the UK all driver are required to have insurance, but even that insurance can't be made to pay-out where either it hasn't been bought, or the vehicle/driver isn't identified.

So as a safety net people can rely on the tax-payer funded NHS(National Health Service, btw), but only while there are taxes to fund it, and that isn't going to be feasible if a Sales Tax had to relied upon in place of Income Tax, IMO.
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Old July 6th, 2010, 03:16 AM   #56 (permalink)
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You assume that the driver at fault is identified, and that the hospital is prepared to supply it's services without any guarantee of being paid. At least lawyers will be kept in gainful employment I guess, even if society's health care turns to crap!
Got a good point there, almost, but even still, insurance polices also have an underinsured/not insured backup policy, so if the other person hits and runs, it falls back on your insurance policy.
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Old July 6th, 2010, 03:18 AM   #57 (permalink)
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Got a good point there, almost, but even still, insurance polices also have an underinsured/not insured backup policy, so if the other person hits and runs, it falls back on your insurance policy.
So you expect every pedestrian to buy personal injury insurance?
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Old July 6th, 2010, 03:20 AM   #58 (permalink)
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So you expect every pedestrian to buy personal injury insurance?
Yes. It is the way of true capitalism.
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Old July 6th, 2010, 06:44 AM   #59 (permalink)
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True Capitalism?

Is that some sort of goal? It'll never happen, thankfully.
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Old July 6th, 2010, 06:50 AM   #60 (permalink)
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Yes. It is the way of true capitalism.
And those that can't afford an insurance policy? Do you propose to just leave them die at the side of the road?
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Old July 6th, 2010, 07:29 AM   #61 (permalink)
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And those that can't afford an insurance policy? Do you propose to just leave them die at the side of the road?

That's the way of true capitalism!
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Old July 6th, 2010, 10:29 AM   #62 (permalink)
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I oppose the federal income tax. But the problem I have with the consumption tax is it is unfair to those who have paid an income tax all these years and have saved money, only to once again have to pay what is essentially a different form of income tax at the point of sale on money that has already been taxed.
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Old July 6th, 2010, 10:40 AM   #63 (permalink)
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...a different form of income tax at the point of sale on money that has already been taxed.
While valid, I would put that way down the list of reasons why a Sales Tax in place of an Income Tax is a really bad idea.
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Old July 6th, 2010, 12:47 PM   #64 (permalink)
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And those that can't afford an insurance policy? Do you propose to just leave them die at the side of the road?
No they won't die, they will get treated at the ER. And then billed for said treatment.
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Old July 6th, 2010, 12:55 PM   #65 (permalink)
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You assume that the driver at fault is identified, and that the hospital is prepared to supply it's services without any guarantee of being paid. At least lawyers will be kept in gainful employment I guess, even if society's health care turns to crap!
I did assume that, but you asked about what would happen if you didn't have insurance but got hit by someone who also did not. That is just how it works in my state. The hospital takes you whether you can pay or not, that is why our system is screwed up here.

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Not really sure what you're meaning here; who has to pay a fee? Anybody who doesn't choose to buy personal health insurance has to pay into a fund? Who then administers the fund, and isn't that in itself like insurance?
Oops again, I was talking about motorists in my state. You don't have to have vehicle insurance, but you have a one time fee that goes into a fund that pays for people who were hit by uninsured motorists. By driving without insurance, you accept liability for all damages that result in any accident your vehicle was involved in and if the accident was not your fault, you are automatically prohibited from suing anyone else involved (though some people do this somehow.)

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Under a model like the NHS in the UK, for example, treatment is free at the point of delivery, and paid for through taxation. So if you fall ill you know that your treatment will be paid for. Yes you can in addition choose to buy additional private treatment, which will mean perhaps less of a wait for an operation etc., but for the most part your treatment is assured.

In the example of the uninsured driver above, you get your treatment without the worry of who's going to pay.
You can buy additional private treatment? It that something that people don't commonly do out there or is it some huge conspiracry to suppress that information from bleeding over here? It would stand to reason that such a thing would exist but you are the first person I have heard (seen) talk about it.

Here, you can get treated, but we usually make your life hell after the fact if you don't pay.
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Old July 7th, 2010, 04:12 AM   #66 (permalink)
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No they won't die, they will get treated at the ER. And then billed for said treatment.
And if they can't pay?
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Old July 7th, 2010, 04:27 AM   #67 (permalink)
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...You don't have to have vehicle insurance, but you have a one time fee that goes into a fund that pays for people who were hit by uninsured motorists. By driving without insurance, you accept liability for all damages that result in any accident your vehicle was involved in and if the accident was not your fault, you are automatically prohibited from suing anyone else involved...
That's such a bizarre, messed-up illogical, irresponsible system!

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...You can buy additional private treatment? It that something that people don't commonly do out there or is it some huge conspiracry to suppress that information from bleeding over here? It would stand to reason that such a thing would exist but you are the first person I have heard (seen) talk about it...
Yeah, private treatment is just that, it's between the consumer and the health insurance provider.
Everybody (those that qualify through being a EU citizen etc.) gets access to the NHS, paid for through taxation. In addition emergency treatment is available to all regardless, but once you move from the ER up to a ward you'll be charged.
The advantage of NHS treatment is that it's 'free' to the recipient, the downside is that there could be a wait for some(many) procedures.
You can take out private health insurance, which will allow you access to quicker treatment, or possible just treatment that suits your schedule (if you're booked in for a procedure that requires you to be off work for 2days, you can schedule it for a Friday, whereas you could be given it on a Monday by the NHS)
If you don't have private insurance, and don't want to wait for NHS treatment, you can always just buy private treatment ad hoc, but obviously that's expensive.
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Old July 7th, 2010, 11:40 AM   #68 (permalink)
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And if they can't pay?
We wreck their credit. Nothing really happens to them if they don't pay and don't care. Just like law abiding citizens, you only get screwed if you aren't a complete screw up that doesn't obey laws, pay bills, or try to contribute to society.

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That's such a bizarre, messed-up illogical, irresponsible system!
You're preaching to the choir, man. I think they thought they were trying to scare people into buying insurance and that works in the area where I live (bunch of stuckup expensive car driving *muttermuttermutter*) but the larger portion of the state is rural and I think they believe that they aren't going to encounter another car with their beat up hoopdy, so no point in paying for something you won't use. Then there is the scumbags like those above who wouldn't care if they ran up a huge ER bill because they aren't going to pay it anyway, so they won't pay insurance and probably not the fee either.

Could you tell me more about the way your NHS works with supplemental? Are there facilities that only do private care or do all medical professionals have to be part of the system in some way? When you say the extra insurance is expensive, how expensive is it? I know that you don't have anything to compare it to, so let me give you a small example:
When I left my 3rd employer's group plan, I had to buy my own insurance.
Given my age, location and health condition, I had to pay 343 2001 US dollars a month. (Ouch, I just looked and it is 710 USD per month if I kept that plan.) That is not supplemental, it covers everything. By everything, I mean everything, but it is a bitter pill to swallow paying more for health insurance than for my car. I am very very lucky and have a job that gives me that kind of coverage for significantly less and covers my whole family. I am sorry for asking a bunch of questions that are really none of my business, I just want to know more about how it works for other systems.
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Old July 7th, 2010, 12:28 PM   #69 (permalink)
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We wreck their credit... ...Just like law abiding citizens, you only get screwed if you aren't a complete screw up that doesn't obey laws, pay bills, or try to contribute to society...
So a law abiding person who can't afford to buy insurance gets knocked down in a hit and run, and they have their credit wrecked because they simply can't afford to pay a bill they never really had a chance to budget for of accept the liability for!

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...I think they thought they were trying to scare people into buying insurance...
I know I'm preaching to the choir, but I have to say that the British system is better on two counts here (or so it seems to me);
1st) Motor insurance is a requirement, you can't simply opt out.
2nd) The NHS has nothing to do with insurance companies, it's tax-payer funded, so they treat you and that is that.

Personally I think it would probably be a further improvement to have the NHS charge insurance companies for care given to a patient after an accident where blame can be attributed to a policy holder, but that's another argument.

With compulsory insurance, even with NHS treatment available, there's still no reason a victim can't claim against that insurance for any other injury or loss, like (being petty) there smashed smartphone/torn clothing etc. etc.

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...Could you tell me more about the way your NHS works with supplemental?...
I'll tell you what I can, but I'm no expert.

The NHS, for most people, is just there; you go to your family doctor (or get wheeled into the ER(the ambulance service is totally tax-payer funded also, which I think is different to the States??)) and he'll either prescribe meds, or refer you to a hospital consultant, the consultant then prescribes whatever further treatment is required, you get better and go home. There's never any discussion about costs, or options based on costs. You of course can go to a private doctor and be treated privately, but often I believe you'll see the same consultant, and get the same treatment, albeit in nicer private rooms, better food, and less of a wait.

There are private hospitals, but the provision of healthcare plans through work is much less prevalent in the UK than the US. I've worked places where only management had health plans, where there were none, and I've worked where there were health plans, but some people I worked with just used the NHS anyway, to avoid the paperwork of private care, the difference in care being so minimal.

You will hear horror stories of waiting lists, but I had cancer years back, and from seeing my family doctor through to starting treatment took about 2weeks, and didn't cost me a penny (other than my regular taxes) for the 10years of treatment, scans check ups etc.

I can't really say what a health plan costs, as I know I can't afford one(pre-existing conditions), and don't see the need as the NHS is, frankly, awesome.
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Old July 16th, 2010, 12:25 AM   #70 (permalink)
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I support a .1 cent tax increase on Gasoline and Diesel.
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Old July 16th, 2010, 02:57 AM   #71 (permalink)
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I support a .1 cent tax increase on Gasoline and Diesel.
What sort of % increase would a tenth of a cent per gallon (I assume per Gallon) be?
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Old July 16th, 2010, 07:01 AM   #72 (permalink)
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So a law abiding person who can't afford to buy insurance gets knocked down in a hit and run, and they have their credit wrecked because they simply can't afford to pay a bill they never really had a chance to budget for of accept the liability for!
Welcome to the United States, the country that cares more about a fetus than a person actually here.
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Old July 16th, 2010, 10:27 AM   #73 (permalink)
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What sort of % increase would a tenth of a cent per gallon (I assume per Gallon) be?
In the US, the federal gasoline tax ends in .9 cents.

SO every gasoline station has signs that say something like

$ 2.54 9/10

I think by increasing the gas tax .1 cents we can eliminate the 9/10 calculation, and also save the gas station money by not having to buy the extra numbers.

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