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Old October 11th, 2011, 12:53 PM   #6051 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by HanSolo View Post
I've been chiming in all morning! But I must admit I hid behind a bush from about #5990 so I could ambush #6000.
I guess we could say Han shot first...

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Old October 11th, 2011, 12:55 PM   #6052 (permalink)
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Wait! Did Steven somehow get access to EarlyMon's AF account or is there really only one of them/him?
That's an excellent question, sa, and one we get asked often.

If a post contains many sentences and many of those sentences have several correctly spelled words, it comes from the EarlyMon account. If a post is short and to the point (whatever that point may be), it comes from the Steven58 account.

Example for what time is it?

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One of the interesting things in the history of the glockenspiel where Android is concerned is that...<snip>
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Lunchtime.
Another example, do either of you know things about the Nexus Prime that you can't or won't say at this time?

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Yes.
Hopefully, this clears up your confusion, and again, we thank you for asking.
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Old October 11th, 2011, 12:56 PM   #6053 (permalink)
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I see this on the schedule...

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3:00 PM3:55 PM Android Innovation Showcase: New devices, tools, accessories, and more!

Edward Schmit, AT&T
Ted Ladd, WIMM
Hod Greeley, Samsung, Samsung Sensor Simulator
Matthew DuPuy, ARM
Wolf Paulus, Hewlett-Packard
Gary Yentin & Tom Emrich, App-Promo
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Old October 11th, 2011, 12:57 PM   #6054 (permalink)
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I guess we could say Han shot first...
Ok, I don't care who ya are, that's just funny right there.
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Old October 11th, 2011, 12:59 PM   #6055 (permalink)
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Sorry if this is repost, but this picture samples look pretty good to me, color and sharpness wise. Note that uploaded images on Picasa get compressed to smaller resolution like 3MP. So we don't know yet what the original resolution size was.

Are these the first Nexus Prime camera samples?
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:00 PM   #6056 (permalink)
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Ugh. I have no idea what you guys are talking about. . but won't the 720p affect any potential benchmarks?

I mean at this point, it's all theoretical isn't it?
 
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:02 PM   #6057 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by xtop View Post
i think most are expecting the A5 to be the fastest gpu on the market until the A6. so until we see somebody else use the 543/544, expect it to outperform everything
Isn't the vita using a four core PowerVR SGX543MP4?
edit these are the specs

http://us.playstation.com/psvita/tech-specs/
Someone needs to put those in a phone.
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:03 PM   #6058 (permalink)
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I guess we could say Han shot first...
That's what she said.

Hey, does anyone know whether a different device is now up for the Game Enthusiast finalist thing at CTIA? Or does it still say "a device to be announced" etc. etc. etc.?
 
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:04 PM   #6059 (permalink)
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Ugh. I have no idea what you guys are talking about. . but won't the 720p affect any potential benchmarks?

I mean at this point, it's all theoretical isn't it?
the benchmark is done at 720p resolution!

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Isn't the vita using a four core PowerVR SGX543MP4?
yup, keep reading, i mentioned that lol

edit: technically its the 543mp4+. where the + denotes dedicated video memory i believe
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:04 PM   #6060 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by nj02vette View Post
OMAP 4470 uses the 544, although initial indications is that it's the single core version, albeit clocked much higher than the 543MP2 in the A5.
Is the 4470 pin compatible w/4430 and 4460? An easy drop-in as soon as yields are high?
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:06 PM   #6061 (permalink)
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I've been making this same point ever since the repeal of the 1 yr contract. Just doesn't make sense and IMO forces people into unecessary insurance OR the old pull an old phone out of the drawer and blow the dust off trick. Who wants to go back to a dinosaur to "get by"....magdelaine.

Ya had to rub it in, didn't ya?
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:07 PM   #6062 (permalink)
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well this bench shows what everything can do at 720p, so we already know about where the prime is going to end up. assume better drivers and a higher clock and you've got your answer

I think that anything that hits 60 fps on a screen that updates at 60 Hz totally wins.

Let's see what happens.

After all - that banner says off-screen.

While I think that means a lot for proving how great a chip is, I'm not sure that has anything to do with expectations for Prime users' end experience.

I note again - benchmarks can be used to characterize iron, a software stack, a compiler - or an end-use case.

Which is most important? I leave it to you cats to decide what's important to you.
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:07 PM   #6063 (permalink)
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the benchmark is done at 720p resolution!



yup, keep reading, i mentioned that lol

edit: technically its the 543mp4+. where the + denotes dedicated video memory i believe
Didn't see anything related to the vita
Maybe it was a bit earlier, this thread is picking up again.
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:08 PM   #6064 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by The_Chief View Post
Good Morning Primers &amp; Primettes!

I can't help but think that this is Samsung UK and they may be talking about the global version of the Prime. Can't vouch for that release date but I think November 3rd is pretty much SET for a US release...

Nothing is set until Verizon makes an announcement. Its great to have a timeframe based on a sources info but release dates change like the wind especially now that event was postponed. All bets are off on a November 3rd release date. Im not saying it wont happen im only saying dont be surprised if that date comes and goes.

Word to the wise. Wait for official word before hanging ones hat on ANY rumored release date. As far as rumored release dates go the closer it gets the more reliable the info.

Im personally not expecting anything on the 3rd until that date gets closer and more evidence starts to support or i hear something from Verizon. I hate rumor release dates to be perfectly honest. I heard about 25 different ones before the Bionic was released.

In my opinion its much to early right now. Im waiting.........
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:09 PM   #6065 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by xtop View Post
the benchmark is done at 720p resolution!
Yeah, but it says "off screen". What the fudge does that mean??
 
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:10 PM   #6066 (permalink)
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I think that anything that hits 60 fps on a screen that updates at 60 Hz totally wins.

Let's see what happens.

After all - that banner says off-screen.

While I think that means a lot for proving how great a chip is, I'm not sure that has anything to do with expectations for Prime users' end experience.

I note again - benchmarks can be used to characterize iron, a software stack, a compiler - or an end-use case.

Which is most important? I leave it to you cats to decide what's important to you.
offscreen 720p to me means that instead of using the devices native resolution, it uses 720p for all devices to get level playing field.

what else could it mean?

edit: also, anandtech is well respected and would not get away with benchmarks that you couldn't trust
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:12 PM   #6067 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by cereal killer View Post
Nothing is set until Verizon makes an announcement. Its great to have a timeframe based on a sources info but release dates change like the wind especially now that event was postponed. All bets are off on a November 3rd release date. Im not saying it wont happen im only saying dont be surprised if that date comes and goes.

Word to the wise. Wait for official word before hanging ones hat on ANY rumored release date. As far as rumored release dates go the closer it gets the more reliable the info.

Im personally not expecting anything on the 3rd until that date gets closer and more evidence starts to support or i hear something from Verizon. I hate rumor release dates to be perfectly honest. I heard about 25 different ones before the Bionic was released.

In my opinion its much to early right now. Im waiting.........
Although I usually disagree with CK's posts, opinions, and general way of life, I must agree with this.

Even if the Verizon CEO was to leak November 3, that date can change depending on many things. There are so many variables in play (what they are, I have no idea, but release dates change too much to make me think otherwise).

Having said that, I'm still 90% sure that Nov. 3 will be the date. Not only Steven's source says it (most recently), but BMX says it, and he was spot on before with other phones that had changing release dates.
 
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:13 PM   #6068 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by nj02vette View Post
According to some here, as soon as the chip is sampled, the board has already been designed, hardware debugged, drivers completed and software verification has already been done. All that's left is soldering on the board and boxing the product up.
Agreed.

100%

Quote:
It is possible that Samsung kept initial production of the completed chips for thier own use, but I find that highly unlikely, since many would consider that anticompetitive behavior.
Last year, Samsung pulled the plug on supplying AMOLED screens (hit HTC hard) and said that as soon as new fab was ready, they would re-open supply for all. But until then, they could not service external and internal order demand and had to make a business decision.

They said about 17 months ago that that fab would be ready to rock and roll in 12 months.

Since that time, I've seen the introduction of SAMOLED and SAMOLED+ in many variations.

And I've seen lots of people saying hooray for SAMOLED+ and hooray Samsung!

But I have yet to see anyone complain that Samsung is being anti-competitive on this matter.

Just saying - you know.
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:18 PM   #6069 (permalink)
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offscreen 720p to me means that instead of using the devices native resolution, it uses 720p for all devices to get level playing field.

what else could it mean?
I have no idea, in all candor and honesty.

Does it mean that that particular benchmark blanked out the screen?

Does it refer to connection to an external display (and even I'd like to doubt that)?

I agree that levels the playing field to measure iron (maybe, depending on the benchmarking software) - but I contend it warps the playing field for Joe or Josie Consumer who just looks at the graph and thinks that it helps them.

Most of those devices do not have 720p screens.

And why 720? Why not 1080?

I accept that there is some magic in the gpu in question.

I simply don't accept the utility of this one benchmark for consumer use.
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:19 PM   #6070 (permalink)
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Ok, so who's willing to put money on or against a Galaxy Nexus release followed by a "shortage of devices"? I remember the original Incredible having this unfortunate circumstance but I can't remember if a reason was ever pegged other than high demand.
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:22 PM   #6071 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by xtop View Post
offscreen 720p to me means that instead of using the devices native resolution, it uses 720p for all devices to get level playing field.

what else could it mean?

edit: also, anandtech is well respected and would not get away with benchmarks that you couldn't trust
That sounds right. They'd be rendering the frames into buffers somewhere that aren't mapped to a physical screen, so they wouldn't be bound by the properties of the screen.

It's possible that it's also a way to get numbers above 60fps, in case a particular phone prevents screen updates faster than that.
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:23 PM   #6072 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by EarlyMon View Post
Last year, Samsung pulled the plug on supplying AMOLED screens (hit HTC hard) and said that as soon as new fab was ready, they would re-open supply for all. But until then, they could not service external and internal order demand and had to make a business decision.

They said about 17 months ago that that fab would be ready to rock and roll in 12 months.

Since that time, I've seen the introduction of SAMOLED and SAMOLED+ in many variations.

And I've seen lots of people saying hooray for SAMOLED+ and hooray Samsung!

But I have yet to see anyone complain that Samsung is being anti-competitive on this matter.

Just saying - you know.
Spot on.

No corporation has any obligation to share its technology with ANYONE. A corporation has ONE SINGLE legal responsibility. A fiduciary one. And that is to make the most money for its stockholders.

If Samsung decided that it's more profitable to keep their tech in-house and sell it in their own products, rather than farm it out to other companies so everyone looks good, then good on 'em. I'd do the same thing.

There's anti-competitive (becoming a monopoly) and being SMART. Samsung is being very smart, indeed, by holding back their best tech for their own products.
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:23 PM   #6073 (permalink)
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Ok, so who's willing to put money on or against a Galaxy Nexus release followed by a "shortage of devices"? I remember the original Incredible having this unfortunate circumstance but I can't remember if a reason was ever pegged other than high demand.

I don't think we'll have to worry about it. The iPhone 4S cleared out the lemmings. It should be open pastures for us!
 
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:23 PM   #6074 (permalink)
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edit: also, anandtech is well respected and would not get away with benchmarks that you couldn't trust
Yes. And I am well-liked by a one or two of their guys, having provided helpful information from time to time. I do have a lot of respect for them - a whole lot.

But their pedigree does not answer the fundamental question:

Trust for what?

Perfectly ok to benchmark pure iron and perfectly ok to trust them to do that right.

Perfectly ok for me to point out that for the average consumer, that graph may not mean what you think it does.
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:25 PM   #6075 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by EarlyMon View Post
I have no idea, in all candor and honesty.

Does it mean that that particular benchmark blanked out the screen?

Does it refer to connection to an external display (and even I'd like to doubt that)?

I agree that levels the playing field to measure iron (maybe, depending on the benchmarking software) - but I contend it warps the playing field for Joe or Josie Consumer who just looks at the graph and thinks that it helps them.

Most of those devices do not have 720p screens.

And why 720? Why not 1080?

I accept that there is some magic in the gpu in question.

I simply don't accept the utility of this one benchmark for consumer use.
Just because the processor is working to process the 720p output doesn't mean that it has to be actually shown on the screen. Just like if you are programming any scrolling game, you can allocate for screen area that isn't even shown on the screen.

This benchmark would just test how well the processor processes the 720p output independent from the actual resolution of the screen. Thus making it a fairer test to do among a myriad of devices and different resolutions.
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:25 PM   #6076 (permalink)
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That sounds right. They'd be rendering the frames into buffers somewhere that aren't mapped to a physical screen, so they wouldn't be bound by the properties of the screen.

It's possible that it's also a way to get numbers above 60fps, in case a particular phone prevents screen updates faster than that.
And in such a case, the benchmark then is simply measuring a single aspect of iron and is not measuring at all the end-to-end performance as experienced by the user.
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:26 PM   #6077 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by EarlyMon View Post
Yes. And I am well-liked by a one or two of their guys, having provided helpful information from time to time. I do have a lot of respect for them - a whole lot.

But their pedigree does not answer the fundamental question:

Trust for what?

Perfectly ok to benchmark pure iron and perfectly ok to trust them to do that right.

Perfectly ok for me to point out that for the average consumer, that graph may not mean what you think it does.
oh sure, i don't mean to say that the benchmark is going to translate to real world performance or anything like that. but i think it gives us a decent look of what we can expect from the 4460
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:28 PM   #6078 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by xtop View Post
offscreen 720p to me means that instead of using the devices native resolution, it uses 720p for all devices to get level playing field.

what else could it mean?

edit: also, anandtech is well respected and would not get away with benchmarks that you couldn't trust
Right, the screen has nothing to do with the processing of the data. It just displays what it can. Heck, you could have NO display and as long as you can output the data to an external source the benchmarks would be just as accurate.

720p would be used instead of 1080p because you would want to stay within reality. When are we going to see a 1080p phone screen? Not for a little while I would bet.
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:28 PM   #6079 (permalink)
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I don't think we'll have to worry about it. The iPhone 4S cleared out the lemmings. It should be open pastures for us!
Lol. I think it was EarlyMon giving me subliminal messages that forced the question. A Google search reveals it may have been the Amoled screen shortage causing much of the problem ala Samsung. Forgot about that...well conciously anyway.
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:29 PM   #6080 (permalink)
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Yes. And I am well-liked by a one or two of their guys, having provided helpful information from time to time. I do have a lot of respect for them - a whole lot.

But their pedigree does not answer the fundamental question:

Trust for what?

Perfectly ok to benchmark pure iron and perfectly ok to trust them to do that right.

Perfectly ok for me to point out that for the average consumer, that graph may not mean what you think it does.
In the end it is merely a benchmark for the actual processor rather than the device as a whole.
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:30 PM   #6081 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by BlueBiker View Post
Is the 4470 pin compatible w/4430 and 4460? An easy drop-in as soon as yields are high?
According to the datasheets, no, they are not direct pin compatible.

Also by Q3 2012, there will be OMAP 5432 as well, which won't find it's way into devices into Q1 2013 most likely.
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:34 PM   #6082 (permalink)
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In the end it is merely a benchmark for the actual processor rather than the device as a whole.
That's what I have said repeatedly and from the beginning, thank you (no sarcasm, quite sincere).

Nothing wrong with wanting the best iron under the hood. Nothing wrong with understanding the boundary conditions in a complete and exact fashion.

But there about maybe 10 or 12 of us here who understand this nuance.

The THOUSANDS of others reading here just want to know how the whole enchilada works.

So - let's move on? I know I am.
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:35 PM   #6083 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by The_Chief View Post
If Samsung decided that it's more profitable to keep their tech in-house and sell it in their own products, rather than farm it out to other companies so everyone looks good, then good on 'em. I'd do the same thing.
Yes of course. I think what would be resented by Samsung's customers is if they were sandbagged... e.g., if Samsung made some purchase commitments w/customers who were led to believe the products would be Samsung's latest and greatest, only to have Samsung then suddenly release internally used products containing something even better that those customers had no idea they'd be competing against.

Maybe that was badly worded, I just think the only out-of-bounds play is if you deceptively compete with your own customers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EarlyMon View Post
Perfectly ok to benchmark pure iron and perfectly ok to trust them to do that right.

Perfectly ok for me to point out that for the average consumer, that graph may not mean what you think it does.
Here's what it comes down to: They're comparing numbers based on how much work can be performed per pixel per unit time, but these phones have a wide distribution of screen sizes and total numbers of pixels.
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:36 PM   #6084 (permalink)
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You guys are missing Early's point.

The point isn't that the benchmark is bad in any way.

The point is that it may not be a useful metric. It may, just like Quadrant scores, be a data point that does not necessarily equate to a real use case or a practical user experience.
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:36 PM   #6085 (permalink)
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What? Now we're talking about Q1 2013 releases?

I officially no longer care about the CPU in the Prime. Give me an OMAP, an Exynos, or a hamster on a wheel. I don't care.

 
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:39 PM   #6086 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by The_Chief View Post
Spot on.

No corporation has any obligation to share its technology with ANYONE. A corporation has ONE SINGLE legal responsibility. A fiduciary one. And that is to make the most money for its stockholders.

If Samsung decided that it's more profitable to keep their tech in-house and sell it in their own products, rather than farm it out to other companies so everyone looks good, then good on 'em. I'd do the same thing.

There's anti-competitive (becoming a monopoly) and being SMART. Samsung is being very smart, indeed, by holding back their best tech for their own products.
Not entirely accurate.

It is somewhat a legal grey area to offer to sell products on the market, and then withhold them from competitors. If they product in question has a monopoly in the industry, then it can quickly jump out of the grey area.

Now, what you are talking about is pure inhouse design, and you have no obligation to sell that to anyone. But if you offer to sell that product on the free market, then there can be some obligations to reasonably supply that product.
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:42 PM   #6087 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by HanSolo View Post
What? Now we're talking about Q1 2013 releases?

I officially no longer care about the CPU in the Prime. Give me an OMAP, an Exynos, or a hamster on a wheel. I don't care.

Hampster on wheel now sampling Q3 2011 at Petsmart.
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:43 PM   #6088 (permalink)
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Just had a thought, and I don't think anyone else has said this. The BMX response to Lee's specs statement made reference to the "rest of the world". Could this suggest that Lee's specs were correct for an unlocked world device and that the BGR specs are correct for the US Verizon exclusive? Would Samsung vary specs to that extent between territories?
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:44 PM   #6089 (permalink)
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Right now, in an alternate dimension, the Google/Samsung press conference is going on.
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:45 PM   #6090 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HanSolo View Post
What? Now we're talking about Q1 2013 releases?

I officially no longer care about the CPU in the Prime. Give me an OMAP, an Exynos, or a hamster on a wheel. I don't care.

Better be one kick-a$$ hamster.

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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:46 PM   #6091 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by akalias View Post
Just had a thought, and I don't think anyone else has said this. The BMX response to Lee's specs statement made reference to the "rest of the world". Could this suggest that Lee's specs were correct for an unlocked world device and that the BGR specs are correct for the US Verizon exclusive? Would Samsung vary specs to that extent between territories?
Welcome to the forums!

I can't answer that question, but I'd say that the Samsung Galaxy S II ships with three different processors, depending on region or carrier. Some would argue that constitutes a big spec difference in the same-named model.

In this case, I think this is all open to interpretation, yours may be correct - who knows?
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:47 PM   #6092 (permalink)
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BMX is also saying (now):

Quote:
who says the event was for nexus? Lmao ok joking but my date stands and unlike others.. I'm never wrong when I give one
Quote:
@xRandomx Brian Tassinari
@black_man_x Is there any chance that there will not be a vzw release for the NP?


@black_man_x The Panda King
@xRandomx always a chance... But magic 8ball says no
I'm not sure about the world specs vs. VZW specs, but at least he's referring to the U.S. version as the Nexus Prime and is sticking to November 3.

Seems promising for a pure Google device on VZ in less than a month!
 
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:47 PM   #6093 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akalias View Post
Just had a thought, and I don't think anyone else has said this. The BMX response to Lee's specs statement made reference to the "rest of the world". Could this suggest that Lee's specs were correct for an unlocked world device and that the BGR specs are correct for the US Verizon exclusive? Would Samsung vary specs to that extent between territories?
Hey AK, welcome to the forums!

SGS2 is available with totally different CPU/GPU SoC chipsets, so I'd guess Prime could be also (especially due to radio incompatibilities).
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:48 PM   #6094 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by S1dewinder View Post
Right now, in an alternate dimension, the Google/Samsung press conference is going on.
Yep. Attended by Walternate, Bolivia, and possibly a ghost thingy of Peter Bishop.
 
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:51 PM   #6095 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by HanSolo View Post
BMX is also saying (now):





I'm not sure about the world specs vs. VZW specs, but at least he's referring to the U.S. version as the Nexus Prime and is sticking to November 3.

Seems promising for a pure Google device on VZ in less than a month!
i wouldn't count on that being a confirmation of it being called that. most people just know the device as nexus prime. (although i hope it is, because galaxy nexus is a terrible name)
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:53 PM   #6096 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by S1dewinder View Post
Right now, in an alternate dimension, the Google/Samsung press conference is going on.

In an alternate dimension, all electricity is generated by genectically altered hamsters on giant wheels.
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:54 PM   #6097 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by xtop View Post
i wouldn't count on that being a confirmation of it being called that. most people just know the device as nexus prime. (although i hope it is, because galaxy nexus is a terrible name)

I guess I'm just concentrating on the "Nexus" part. Whether it's Prime or Galaxy, I couldn't care less. Someone here said (probably 15 minutes and 20 pages ago) that if it's got "Nexus" in the name, it'll be updated from Google directly, and I agree.

Just seems promising! I've got my optimist cap on today!
 
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:55 PM   #6098 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by zulucap View Post
In an alternate dimension, all electricity is generated by genectically altered hamsters on giant wheels.
And Steve Jobs, the CEO of Google, has just passed, causing competitor Apple to delay the announcement of the new iPhone...
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Old October 11th, 2011, 01:58 PM   #6099 (permalink)
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And Steve Jobs, the CEO of Google, has just passed, causing competitor Apple to delay the announcement of the new iPhone...

And Samsung customers are delighted to find out that the Exynos 4212 will be in the Prime.
 
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Old October 11th, 2011, 02:02 PM   #6100 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by zulucap View Post
In an alternate dimension, all electricity is generated by genectically altered hamsters on giant wheels.
Is that the one where Spock has a goatee?
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