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Old October 21st, 2011, 07:09 AM   #101 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by BlueBiker View Post
Hi Ms. Elliott, thanks so much for responding!



That doesn't show the 2:1 RGBG subpixel proportions, which would look like:

XXXGXX
XRRGXX
XXXGXX
XRRGXX

XBBGXX
XRRGXX
XBBGXX
XRRGXX

where the yellow vertical is more ragged.



That is impressive! I wish the Nexus' PenTile was an RGBW type.



That sounds counter to what you wrote elsewhere in these forums:

"the distance between the same color subpixel is increased, compared to an RGB Stripe panel, and "pattern visibility", called the "screen-door" effect here, may occur for solid colors. This is one reason why PenTile technology is only recommended for higher resolutions. As displays continue to be spec'ed at yet higher resolutions, this effect will become less of an issue."

but I'm reasonably sure you're right that higher resolutions render the issue moot.

Ah... I see the confusion. Color blending is not the same as pattern visibility. Pattern visibility occurs because the color subpixels are not equal luminosity (brightness difference of colors, green is brightest, blue is darkest). Color blending occurs over a long distance, as the red/green chroma channel tops out at 8 cycles per degree and the yellow/blue chroma channel tops out at only 4 cycles per degree. But the luminance channel goes up to 60 cycles per degree for those whose eyes are still young and healthy. This means that while the colors (chroma information) are fully blended, at lower dpi, the subpixels may still exhibit pattern visibility, but is only visible in the luminance channel, as a grid of grey on white.

Again, the "ragged" edge effect, for those lower dpi panels, seen by young eagle eyes who hold the panels up close... is a pattern visibility issue, not a sharpness issue. Strictly speaking. Paradoxically, "fuzzing" out the panel with an optical filter would actually make it look "sharper" because it would reduce the pattern visibility. (try an experiment with Scotch tape as an optical filter)

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Old October 21st, 2011, 07:31 AM   #102 (permalink)
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I have personally never had an issue with the pen tile pixel arrangement on any phones and i have seen them all at least once......I never have a real life case where i have to hold my phone up to my eyeball to the point where its almost touching so i can see granularity and complain about it
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Old October 21st, 2011, 07:43 AM   #103 (permalink)
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Red face sorry..

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Good to know about the actual numbers on that white sub-pixel.

And I never said that the white pixel stopped blending. However, I have observed the greenish yellows and sometimes even 'flyscreening' on the Motorola Atrix. Either that's an inherent problem in RGBW PenTile, or Motorola broke it somehow putting it into their phones.

Since your post came across as somewhat hostile, I'll point out that I'm not some kind of anti-PenTile crusader; I came into this thread defending PenTile.

Sorry... I've spent the past several days explaining (defending?) our latest code for advanced PenTile here in Korea. I'm jet lagged and cranky... and have been reading nasty reviews on the internet regarding Nexus Prime, that have been so far removed from reality, I wonder if they need psych meds.

Our PenTile RGBW code allows for "agressive" power savings modes that sometimes allow for some "simultaneous contrast error" between the white point brightness and saturated colors. In RGBW, we can save more power by reducing the brightness of the brightest fully saturated colors. This can cause bright yellows to appear 'mustard' and greens to appear 'khaki'. If you measure the color, it is still the right color, but compared to the brighter white point, it appears to look different. Color appearance is a VERY complex subject. (Did you know that "brown" is actually "orange"?) Long winded explaination for some of the effects seen on the Moto panels, as they elected to use "agressive" power savings settings at times to extend the battery life.

"Fly screening" is "pattern visibility"... which is most noticed on solid green. That issue will go away as resolutions increase.
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Old October 21st, 2011, 07:55 AM   #104 (permalink)
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yeah I have the Atrix 4g with the penTile screen and once in a while I can see the grainy look but it does bother me, I plan on switch from ATT to verzion for GN when it comes out
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Old October 21st, 2011, 01:22 PM   #105 (permalink)
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Well, I don't know all about the tech speak and such, but BMX just tweeted (in response to someone asking him if the pentile effect was annoying):

Quote:
I have used both and to be honest I cant tell.. looks great to me and I hated the bionic an droid x2 screens.
 
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Old October 21st, 2011, 02:06 PM   #106 (permalink)
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In-depth look at PenTile Screens - PhoneArena

Worry not my friends, you'll all be amazed by the Nexus's screen
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Old October 21st, 2011, 05:09 PM   #107 (permalink)
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In-depth look at PenTile Screens - PhoneArena

Worry not my friends, you'll all be amazed by the Nexus's screen
If that's true then why are the 30" Dell IPS LCD monitors considered to be some of the very best available?
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Old October 21st, 2011, 05:13 PM   #108 (permalink)
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If that's true then why are the 30" Dell IPS LCD monitors considered to be some of the very best available?
Why do you bring up 30" LCD monitor here?
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Old October 21st, 2011, 05:19 PM   #109 (permalink)
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Why do you bring up 30" LCD monitor here?
Because people are saying that even though the iPhone 4s screen is better, the larger Galaxy Nexus screen makes up for it. To me that isn't logical with all the flack that inferior screen technology gets in the desktop world.
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Old October 21st, 2011, 05:29 PM   #110 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by SiXiam View Post
Because people are saying that even though the iPhone 4s screen is better, the larger Galaxy Nexus screen makes up for it. To me that isn't logical with all the flack that inferior screen technology gets in the desktop world.
I disagree. Few people would choose to use a 15" desktop LCD these days, even if it had infinite DPI and amazing colors & viewing angles.

All people are saying is that Nexus is expected to be more than sharp enough for most people while also being large enough to be practical for browsing and other activities that are cramped on a 3.5" display.
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Old October 21st, 2011, 05:48 PM   #111 (permalink)
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Sorry... I've spent the past several days explaining (defending?) our latest code for advanced PenTile here in Korea. I'm jet lagged and cranky... and have been reading nasty reviews on the internet regarding Nexus Prime, that have been so far removed from reality, I wonder if they need psych meds.
I totally hear you mate, I've nearly been pulling my hair out over all the bad press that's come up in the last day or so. It's maddening to see that people can be so biased against a technology they haven't even seen yet, and moreso that those in a position of 'power' see fit to distribute their slander to the masses.
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Our PenTile RGBW code allows for "agressive" power savings modes that sometimes allow for some "simultaneous contrast error" between the white point brightness and saturated colors. In RGBW, we can save more power by reducing the brightness of the brightest fully saturated colors. This can cause bright yellows to appear 'mustard' and greens to appear 'khaki'. If you measure the color, it is still the right color, but compared to the brighter white point, it appears to look different. Color appearance is a VERY complex subject. (Did you know that "brown" is actually "orange"?) Long winded explaination for some of the effects seen on the Moto panels, as they elected to use "agressive" power savings settings at times to extend the battery life.
Being an artist I know a bit about color composition and things, but that's rather fascinating. Obviously I don't deal with what sounds like some kind of dynamic brightness scaling that RGBW allows for.
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"Fly screening" is "pattern visibility"... which is most noticed on solid green. That issue will go away as resolutions increase.
Of this I have no doubt. The Galaxy Note already looks fantastic with RGBG, and I can't wait to see those upcoming 10-inch 2560x1600 RGBW panels.
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Old October 21st, 2011, 05:55 PM   #112 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by SiXiam View Post
Because people are saying that even though the iPhone 4s screen is better, the larger Galaxy Nexus screen makes up for it. To me that isn't logical with all the flack that inferior screen technology gets in the desktop world.
I don't understand... The link explains how great the PenTile screen looks on the Galaxy Note... And you're bringing up a 30'' monitor?
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Old October 21st, 2011, 06:10 PM   #113 (permalink)
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I don't understand... The link explains how great the PenTile screen looks on the Galaxy Note... And you're bringing up a 30'' monitor?
Because this is so much like a TN vs IPS argument in the desktop monitor arena.
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Old October 21st, 2011, 06:20 PM   #114 (permalink)
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Because this is so much like a TN vs IPS argument in the desktop monitor arena.
There are many axes involved: sharpness, color fidelity, viewing angles, power draw, outdoor visibility, purchase cost. No one technology optimizes them all, so different people will choose different compromises.

It's fun to dispute the strengths and weaknesses, but there isn't a right or wrong answer to which display tech is best.
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Old October 22nd, 2011, 04:57 PM   #115 (permalink)
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Default Ditto...

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There are many axes involved: sharpness, color fidelity, viewing angles, power draw, outdoor visibility, purchase cost. No one technology optimizes them all, so different people will choose different compromises.

It's fun to dispute the strengths and weaknesses, but there isn't a right or wrong answer to which display tech is best.

+1

There are trade-offs for all engineering decisions: cost vs. performance, color gamut vs. transmittance (for LCD), brightness vs. material lifetime (for OLED), brightness vs. battery life (both LCD and OLED), resolution vs. material lifetime (OLED), resolution vs. transmissivity (LCD), etc. I often say, "pick your poison" because sometimes, ya just can't have your cake and eat it too.

What has interested me in developing PenTile technology for the past twenty years, is that we might be able to make new and better trade-offs, focussing on careful examination of the human vision system, allowing us to trade-off chroma resolution (which the human vision system doesn't need) for more luminance resolution (which we do need) by rearranging the color subpixels and applying digital signal processing.... and in the process, increase the lifetime (OLED) and transmittance (LCD) for a given useful luminance resolution.

It drives me nuts that some people think that PenTile is meant to reduce cost. Rubish !!! It is to improve the information and energy efficiency of color displays. It is designed to enable higher luminance resolution, accellerating the adoption of higher resolution formats. If I had my way, PenTile would be used in much higher resolution formats than presently available. But we must wait until the graphics processors and GUIs catch-up to what resolutions PenTile enables.

Right now, both OLED and LCD PenTile panels use two subpixels per pixel. As resolutions increase, the number of subpixels per pixel may be reduced yet further. One such design uses 1.25 subpixels per pixel, and still meets the VESA spec for resolution. There is even a layout, that also meets the VESA spec, that is only one subpixel per pixel, dispite using five different color primaries (one of them being W), but the resolution must be very, very high for it to work correctly with the human vision system. But, both of these display layouts have challenging subpixels shapes that don't work well with todays display design guidelines, which allow only rectangular shapes and grids. Thus, another engineering trade-off is found in manufacturing limitations.
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Old October 22nd, 2011, 05:41 PM   #116 (permalink)
 
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Like I've mentioned before....forget about 320 ppi if the screen is pentile. GS 2 screen will look better. Really hope that I'm wrong about it being pentile.
It won't look bad. From everyone who has hands on they say the screen is nice and won't be like moto's pentile screens. Not to mention the nexus 1 was pentile and people weren't complaining much then. You just blow it way out of proportion.
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Old October 22nd, 2011, 06:43 PM   #117 (permalink)
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Nice to have DG in here explaining things. Much appreciated!
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Old October 22nd, 2011, 07:11 PM   #118 (permalink)
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Nice to have DG in here explaining things. Much appreciated!

de nada
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Old October 23rd, 2011, 09:55 AM   #119 (permalink)
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I know talk here has mainly been about the pentile display, but is anyone concerned with Burn-In on the SAMOLED screen? I have seen this first hand on pretty much every samsung phone released on verizon and it might be the biggest worry I have about purchasing the nexus. At my store we have the stratosphere on display and while yes it runs pretty much all day its already suffering burn-in after being out only 2 weeks.

I realize that none of our phones will be running constantly, but 2 weeks is the quickest ive seen for burn-in to take place. I use my phone a lot so my screen is definitely on for more than 1 hour a day from browsing the web, using gps etc.
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Old October 23rd, 2011, 10:33 AM   #120 (permalink)
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There's a big differences between a hour and all day
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Old October 23rd, 2011, 10:47 AM   #121 (permalink)
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I know that. But it's pretty common knowledge about burn-in issues with amoled. I know it's a extreme example but even if it's on a couple hours a day for a few months burn in can appear.
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Old October 23rd, 2011, 10:47 AM   #122 (permalink)
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DG, I appreciate your perspective. However, PenTile in itself is still a trade off. It inherently cannot produce the same quality image as an RGB screen at the same resolution. However, here's the comment that struck me;

Quote:
It drives me nuts that some people think that PenTile is meant to reduce cost. Rubish !!!
If PenTile displays are cheaper than their RGB counterparts, OEMs will look at them as one possible way to reduce costs. It doesn't matter what the developers of PenTile want, it's what the buyers want. All of the things that you said are great things, but cost is definitely a factor for the OEM.

I have both defended and bashed PenTile displays. Motorola's recent displays (Atrix, D3, X2, Bionic) are straight up trash. There's no way around it. My first encounter with one was when a friend brought me his X2 (he's no videophile, geek, or anything, he just wanted a smartphone), and said "I think my screen is broke." They are THAT bad. However, we also see good PenTile displays, such as the original Galaxy S. Despite that, the SGS2 uses a similar display, but with an RGB layout instead. Guess which one is preferred?

Like you said, PenTile is one of many trade-offs. What we're seeing here is that PenTile is a trade-off that many are becoming more and more aware of, and many don't want to make this trade-off.
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Old October 23rd, 2011, 12:41 PM   #123 (permalink)
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Like you said, PenTile is one of many trade-offs. What we're seeing here is that PenTile is a trade-off that many are becoming more and more aware of, and many don't want to make this trade-off.
I haven't compared different PenTile displays but based on reviews so far, this seems to be a trade-off that goes away or diminishes with high enough PPI.
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Old October 23rd, 2011, 02:00 PM   #124 (permalink)
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I haven't compared different PenTile displays but based on reviews so far, this seems to be a trade-off that goes away or diminishes with high enough PPI.
This is correct. My Incredible uses PenTile and it looks very good. The first-gen SGS uses a better PenTile screen at the same resolution, but a larger size and therefore lower PPI, yet still looks vastly superior to the Incredible's screen. It's all about the implementation, and Moto's implementation in their LCD screens was horrendous. PenTile was a bad word to a degree last year, but Moto gave it the scarlet letter this year. If Moto hadn't used PenTile on those phones, no one would care about the RAZR and GN using PenTile.
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Old October 24th, 2011, 07:48 AM   #125 (permalink)
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This is correct. My Incredible uses PenTile and it looks very good. The first-gen SGS uses a better PenTile screen at the same resolution, but a larger size and therefore lower PPI, yet still looks vastly superior to the Incredible's screen. It's all about the implementation, and Moto's implementation in their LCD screens was horrendous. PenTile was a bad word to a degree last year, but Moto gave it the scarlet letter this year. If Moto hadn't used PenTile on those phones, no one would care about the RAZR and GN using PenTile.
I couldn't agree more with Moto and their Pentile screens. The Bionic is TERRIBLE and the pattern is so obvious on the screen. It doesn't look sharp at all and you can see a cross-hatch pattern.

Does anyone have any thoughts on if the Nexus will look even similar to what the Bionic's pentile is? I really hope not, that is the one thing that would keep me from getting it.
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Old October 24th, 2011, 08:07 AM   #126 (permalink)
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I couldn't agree more with Moto and their Pentile screens. The Bionic is TERRIBLE and the pattern is so obvious on the screen. It doesn't look sharp at all and you can see a cross-hatch pattern.

Does anyone have any thoughts on if the Nexus will look even similar to what the Bionic's pentile is? I really hope not, that is the one thing that would keep me from getting it.
Every blogger who has played with it said the screen was beautiful. The only 2 "articles" I saw that were negative where from people who were speculating and didn't see the device in person.
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Old October 24th, 2011, 09:23 AM   #127 (permalink)
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It's a phone for pete's sake. Yes I want it to be the best it can be, and I am a photography and home theater enthusiast, but geesh I'm not going to edit my work for correct white balance/skin tones on my phone... I'm not going to have my screen calibrated like my 56" pdp in my home theater with the standard THX certified SMTPE 16 FL + or - 4 or have the RGB profile a relative flatline so I can watch a full length movie on the 4.6" phone....

Bypass all the tech-talk-babble, it's going to be an excellent screen for a phone I can't wait!
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Old October 24th, 2011, 10:02 AM   #128 (permalink)
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All I know is my Galaxy S has a gorgeous display, and when it's side-by-side with my friends' DX and Atrix, it absolutely blows the Moto phones away. Different classes of displays altogether.

All three have Pentile subpixel arrangement. Just that the SAMOLED is in another class of its own. No worry for me about the GNex's SAMOLED.
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Old October 24th, 2011, 11:25 AM   #129 (permalink)
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I have no doubt that HD SAMOLED on Nexus will look beautiful despite it being pentile.

Interestingly I see some folks claiming qHD SAMOLED on Razr is non-pentile RGB stripe. Is this confirmed with proof? To my knowledge Samsung never sourced high resolution SAMOLED+ screen to anyone.
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Old October 24th, 2011, 11:55 AM   #130 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sandroidfan View Post
I have no doubt that HD SAMOLED on Nexus will look beautiful despite it being pentile.

Interestingly I see some folks claiming qHD SAMOLED on Razr is non-pentile RGB stripe. Is this confirmed with proof? To my knowledge Samsung never sourced high resolution SAMOLED+ screen to anyone.
All reports I see say the Razr has a pentile display.
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Old October 24th, 2011, 12:16 PM   #131 (permalink)
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All reports I see say the Razr has a pentile display.
That was my thought and also Droid-Life took close picture of Razr clearing showing pentile pattern on screen.
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Old October 24th, 2011, 12:17 PM   #132 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by aentropy View Post

Does anyone have any thoughts on if the Nexus will look even similar to what the Bionic's pentile is? I really hope not, that is the one thing that would keep me from getting it.
Find someone who has an original Galaxy S (or variant, such as Fascinate, Captivate, Epic, or Vibrant). That is the exact same screen tech used in the Galaxy Nexus and the RAZR, with the exception of screen size and resolution. If you are happy with those screens, you'll be happy with the RAZR's screen, and VERY happy with the Nexus' screen.

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Originally Posted by Sandroidfan View Post

Interestingly I see some folks claiming qHD SAMOLED on Razr is non-pentile RGB stripe. Is this confirmed with proof? To my knowledge Samsung never sourced high resolution SAMOLED+ screen to anyone.
There is one person here in particular who constantly claims that the screen on the RAZR is Super AMOLED Plus (non-pentile). I've shown him that his assertion was false. He cited a preview by PC Mag (done by Sasha Segan), so I emailed Mr. Segan and posted his response (admitting his errors in that preview). That wasn't good enough.

If you're dealing with the same person that I am, best to just drop it like I did. I've always been told that if you argue with an idiot, they bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. Best to let that person wallow in his own ignorance. It's already been stated by all parties involved that the screen is Super Amoled, and that it's PenTile. The key difference is that it is the first qHD Super Amoled display. All qHD means is a resolution of 960x540, nothing more. And for those scratching their heads, if you took 4 960x540 screens and lined them up as a square, you'd get 1920x1080, hence the name qHD, for quarter HD.
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Old October 24th, 2011, 05:16 PM   #133 (permalink)
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There is one person here in particular who constantly claims that the screen on the RAZR is Super AMOLED Plus (non-pentile). I've shown him that his assertion was false. He cited a preview by PC Mag (done by Sasha Segan), so I emailed Mr. Segan and posted his response (admitting his errors in that preview). That wasn't good enough.
I previously said that I didn't think any ~superphone like RAZR would be introduced with a qHD PenTile screen this late in the game... but I don't have a problem admitting being wrong about that.
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Old October 25th, 2011, 10:11 AM   #134 (permalink)
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Since this thread is already about display tech and I didn't want to start another thread...

Does anyone have any idea how bright this screen will be? I want something much brighter than my Incredible. It's my biggest complaint. I have an ASUS Transformer and that's bright enough, so equal to that would be just fine.
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Old October 25th, 2011, 12:05 PM   #135 (permalink)
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Since this thread is already about display tech and I didn't want to start another thread...

Does anyone have any idea how bright this screen will be? I want something much brighter than my Incredible. It's my biggest complaint. I have an ASUS Transformer and that's bright enough, so equal to that would be just fine.
Take a look at a Galaxy S (Fascinate in Verizon stores). The thing is viewable even in daylight. This screen kills the Incredible's screen. Better color depth, better viewing in daylight, less reflective, etc.
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Old October 25th, 2011, 03:24 PM   #136 (permalink)
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Celery is probably the foulest-tasting veggie in existence for me. The smell alone makes me want to wretch. I claim no ability to taste more or better than the average person. But for whatever reason, there's something extremely nasty that I can detect that others cannot when it comes to celery. These other people are ones who think of celery as good-tasting or neutral.

And I find this a very apt analogy to PenTile. Based on what I've read (and I've read lots moderating the various forums here and my own research elsewhere) that there is no correlation between a person's subjective assessment about their visual acuity, color perception, etc. to the aversion of PenTile screens.

I hear lots of people say, "it just doesn't bother me that much" for both PenTile and celery. I hear people say to me, "what the F are you talking about? It looks/tastes awesome!" And sometimes I meet a fellow celery/PenTile hater and just understand with no words spoken.

We all see differently, the same way we taste differently. If we're in the pro-PenTile camp, we need to stop accusing naysayers of being "eagle-eyed" and holding their screens up to their faces. Likewise, for the anti-PenTile camp, there's nothing wrong with other people's vision. We just process the info differently, and we have varying tolerances and expectations.

I was extremely put off by the original Galaxy S PenTile screens, and this was before I even knew what PenTile was. The Atrix screen looked even worse, but for different reasons. Therefore I suspect that the screen on the Galaxy Nexus will disappoint me too, despite the resolution. I see it this way: if you have to raise pixel density a lot just to hide the inherent fault of the display, imagine how much better your screen would be if you had that same density WITHOUT any inherent fault. Yes, at some pixel density, it becomes irrelevant. Given that for me, the Atrix qHD looks very crappy compared to my Evo 3D's qHD screen, I'd say 720p is still not high enough res to cover up the symptoms of PenTile. For me.

People think I'm exaggerating when I describe my distaste for celery. And I bet some of you here think the same thing for my distaste of PenTile. But I can assure you my complaints are very real; I am not trying to find fault intentionally, and I have no motivation to poo-poo pentile technology. It is what it is. It bothers me. I know full well that it doesn't bother a lot of people out there, and I don't think these people are crazy. In fact, I consider them lucky that they have more selection of tolerable phones than me.
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Old October 25th, 2011, 03:37 PM   #137 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by novox77 View Post
...

I was extremely put off by the original Galaxy S PenTile screens, and this was before I even knew what PenTile was. The Atrix screen looked even worse, but for different reasons. Therefore I suspect that the screen on the Galaxy Nexus will disappoint me too, despite the resolution.

...
This is what I am afraid of. I read a lot of books on my phone, and I consider Galaxy S to be inadequate for my needs. I really want the GN and a big beautiful screen. And I hope that it I don't notice any visual artifacts, but if it bothers me, I will have to wait.

By the way, thank you to DG. Reading some of the science behind the layout is nice and give me more hope for the GN. Thanks again.
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Old October 25th, 2011, 04:10 PM   #138 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by novox77 View Post
I was extremely put off by the original Galaxy S PenTile screens, and this was before I even knew what PenTile was. The Atrix screen looked even worse, but for different reasons. Therefore I suspect that the screen on the Galaxy Nexus will disappoint me too, despite the resolution. I see it this way: if you have to raise pixel density a lot just to hide the inherent fault of the display, imagine how much better your screen would be if you had that same density WITHOUT any inherent fault. Yes, at some pixel density, it becomes irrelevant. Given that for me, the Atrix qHD looks very crappy compared to my Evo 3D's qHD screen, I'd say 720p is still not high enough res to cover up the symptoms of PenTile. For me.
It's been pointed out several times before and also as you noted, not all pentile screens are the same. Atrix qHD is the worst pentile screen as it's RGBW pentile LCD. But SAMOLED pentile screen uses RGBG pixels looking better even at lower WVGA like Galaxy S you noted. So bumping resolution to 720p HD from WVGA SAMOLED, I can easily see visual defects of pentile like rough edge, crosshatch would practically disappear. Your prediction is based on Atrix qHD, which is worse pentile screen (RGBW pentile LCD).
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Old October 25th, 2011, 04:34 PM   #139 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by novox77 View Post
I was extremely put off by the original Galaxy S PenTile screens, and this was before I even knew what PenTile was. The Atrix screen looked even worse, but for different reasons.
Combine the extreme density with the new sub-pixel sizes (assuming they carry over from the Note) and you have a screen that won't look anything like the one on the Galaxy S. I'm not trying to be argumentative or anything, but expecting a display to perform poorly based on past experience with a completely different display is pretty much guaranteeing you won't like it, even if it turns out amazing.
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Old October 25th, 2011, 04:42 PM   #140 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by novox77 View Post
Celery is probably the foulest-tasting veggie in existence for me. The smell alone makes me want to wretch. I claim no ability to taste more or better than the average person. But for whatever reason, there's something extremely nasty that I can detect that others cannot when it comes to celery. These other people are ones who think of celery as good-tasting or neutral.

And I find this a very apt analogy to PenTile.
Most of the time dislike for particular foods have more to do with psychological effect of having convinced yourself that you do not like it, rather than detecting something about it that others don't. If you try to taste a new food being sure that you don't like it, you probably won't. No matter how well it's prepared this time.
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Old October 25th, 2011, 10:27 PM   #141 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by novox77 View Post
Celery is probably the foulest-tasting veggie in existence for me. The smell alone makes me want to wretch. I claim no ability to taste more or better than the average person. But for whatever reason, there's something extremely nasty that I can detect that others cannot when it comes to celery. These other people are ones who think of celery as good-tasting or neutral.

And I find this a very apt analogy to PenTile. Based on what I've read (and I've read lots moderating the various forums here and my own research elsewhere) that there is no correlation between a person's subjective assessment about their visual acuity, color perception, etc. to the aversion of PenTile screens.

I hear lots of people say, "it just doesn't bother me that much" for both PenTile and celery. I hear people say to me, "what the F are you talking about? It looks/tastes awesome!" And sometimes I meet a fellow celery/PenTile hater and just understand with no words spoken.

We all see differently, the same way we taste differently. If we're in the pro-PenTile camp, we need to stop accusing naysayers of being "eagle-eyed" and holding their screens up to their faces. Likewise, for the anti-PenTile camp, there's nothing wrong with other people's vision. We just process the info differently, and we have varying tolerances and expectations.

I was extremely put off by the original Galaxy S PenTile screens, and this was before I even knew what PenTile was. The Atrix screen looked even worse, but for different reasons. Therefore I suspect that the screen on the Galaxy Nexus will disappoint me too, despite the resolution. I see it this way: if you have to raise pixel density a lot just to hide the inherent fault of the display, imagine how much better your screen would be if you had that same density WITHOUT any inherent fault. Yes, at some pixel density, it becomes irrelevant. Given that for me, the Atrix qHD looks very crappy compared to my Evo 3D's qHD screen, I'd say 720p is still not high enough res to cover up the symptoms of PenTile. For me.

People think I'm exaggerating when I describe my distaste for celery. And I bet some of you here think the same thing for my distaste of PenTile. But I can assure you my complaints are very real; I am not trying to find fault intentionally, and I have no motivation to poo-poo pentile technology. It is what it is. It bothers me. I know full well that it doesn't bother a lot of people out there, and I don't think these people are crazy. In fact, I consider them lucky that they have more selection of tolerable phones than me.
This is dead on for me as well. The Bionic's Pentile screen has that screen door or cross hatch effect that is so blatantly obvious that it just bothers me enough to not like the phone.

I am also just more sensitive to stuff like this. For instance, fluorescent lights give me a headache (some people pick up to a wavelength they give off and others don't) as will certain patterned carpets in office buildings etc.

I'm curious if anyone else that is particularly bothered by Pentile displays have similar issues like this or are susceptible to migraines, etc...
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Old October 26th, 2011, 02:12 AM   #142 (permalink)
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This is dead on for me as well. The Bionic's Pentile screen has that screen door or cross hatch effect that is so blatantly obvious that it just bothers me enough to not like the phone.

I am also just more sensitive to stuff like this. For instance, fluorescent lights give me a headache (some people pick up to a wavelength they give off and others don't) as will certain patterned carpets in office buildings etc.

I'm curious if anyone else that is particularly bothered by Pentile displays have similar issues like this or are susceptible to migraines, etc...



I never had a headache in my life and I love celery. However, I absolutely dislike pentile technology. I notice it on phones the second I look at the screen. I sincerely hope that they've done some magic with GN and Moto droid razr.
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Old October 26th, 2011, 07:11 AM   #143 (permalink)
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Keep in mind also once the human mind "notices" something it is designed to become more aware of that "thing" its biologically built into us from the hunter gather days.

I had a HUGE audiophile friend once with a studio set up in his basement(special walls etc.) He wanted to show me the difference between a transistor amp and a tube amp. You can hear the difference he said! And I trust is completely right. But I declined because once he pointed out to me, I'd be "ruined"(figuratively speaking) for listening to "normal" music.

For most people the "pentile" / "non-pentile" discussion is exactly the same thing. Only once you "notice" it does it become a issue, and it really doesn't make a difference for 95% of the people and their phones...
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Old October 26th, 2011, 07:51 AM   #144 (permalink)
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Interesting blog from Nuovoyance EVP explaining their thoughts on the matter.

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Perhaps the biggest and most valid criticism of PenTile technology has be pattern visibility since the pattern is one-third larger than that of RGB stripe. As we get to these very high resolution formats such pattern visibility disappears. It is only easy to see the differences between RGB stripe and PenTile through the use of magnifiers. Yes it is different than RGB stripe, but it doesn’t matter. One has to doubt the credibility of the pundits who are so quick to criticize PenTile before they even take their first look at these panels.
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It is our impression that consumers will be delighted with the new PenTile OLED panels in the 720P format. The industryis now coming into the sweet spot for PenTile technology. Do yourself a favor and go look at this with your own eyes rather than taking the word of those with a predisposed bias and an anti-PenTile agenda.
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Old October 26th, 2011, 11:08 AM   #145 (permalink)
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Interesting blog from Nuovoyance EVP explaining their thoughts on the matter.
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Perhaps the biggest and most valid criticism of PenTile technology has be pattern visibility since the pattern is one-third larger than that of RGB stripe. As we get to these very high resolution formats such pattern visibility disappears. It is only easy to see the differences between RGB stripe and PenTile through the use of magnifiers.
The catch is that the threshold for which the pattern visibility becomes "retina" varies WIDELY from person to person. And we've also seen from other posts in this thread that the matrix variations also play a part. Some people might tolerate RGBG better than RGBW and vice versa.

On principle, I don't buy the argument that the issue goes away as you increase the resolution, even though it's a true statement. It's like saying that a blurry camera becomes acceptable if you keep adding megapixels to the image. That way you can downsize it and it will appear sharp. Well, yeah, but wouldn't it be better to just have a sharp camera regardless of the megapixels?

But I am also willing to accept that my sensitivity to screendoor effect, edge color aberrations*, color blending, etc. is abnormally high and that the average consumer won't notice or won't care. From a business perspective, that means PenTile is perfectly viable, and from a technology perspective, sometimes you do get something for nothing, like Splenda.


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Yes it is different than RGB stripe, but it doesn’t matter. One has to doubt the credibility of the pundits who are so quick to criticize PenTile before they even take their first look at these panels.
Quote:
Do yourself a favor and go look at this with your own eyes rather than taking the word of those with a predisposed bias and an anti-PenTile agenda.
The few people who complain loudly about PenTile can affect said business, especially if these people are considered reliable sources for general tech news. Therefore it makes sense for Nouvoyance to defend the technology lest the average consumer forms a negative impression before even looking at the screen to see if there's a perceptible difference to them.

As for people who criticize without first-hand experience, it definitely happens, but it doesn't mean that all people who criticize PenTile are making things up, holding magnifying glasses, or intentionally trying to find fault with the screen. I'd rather see the defense from Nouvoyance take more of a tone of acknowledging disadvantages (like the first part of this quoted writing) but then explaining that not everyone is equally susceptible. Blindly dismissing a detractor's argument or blindly making assumptions about methodology or motivation only lessens Nouvoyance's credibility.

*Example of edge color aberrations in PenTile RGBG:



Notice that the black text on the PenTile screen has chromatic aberrations on its edges. You see red, blue, and green glows around the text where there is little to none of that on a traditional RGB stripe matrix. This is very obvious on RGBG matrices. Less so on RGBW. Note also that the text edge is jagged as well.

Granted, this image shows a magnified screen, but as I've said before, not everyone needs the magnification to see these artifacts. On my 21" monitor, I have to back up about 10ft before it becomes unnoticeable. It's the first thing that jumped out at me when I first looked at an Epic 4G (Galaxy S). Given that it was the same resolution as my Evo 4G, I wondered at the time why the screen looked so much blurrier in comparison.

So in my experience, it does not require predisposed knowledge of PenTile technology to observe PenTile artifacts; it was an issue for me the very first time I saw a PenTile screen, and by definition, I had no idea what I was looking for. And I wasn't looking for defects. In fact, the only thing I was looking for was how the OLED colors and contrast differed from my LCD Evo. Instead, I noticed the PenTile-specific qualities of the Epic.
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Old October 26th, 2011, 11:21 AM   #146 (permalink)
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I never had a headache in my life and I love celery. However, I absolutely dislike pentile technology. I notice it on phones the second I look at the screen. I sincerely hope that they've done some magic with GN and Moto droid razr.
I've read so many posts about people complaining of the Bionic's screen and others saying they have no issues. It appears to me that some people can see it and others can't or they just live with it.

If I can see pixelation it would really upset me.
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Old October 26th, 2011, 11:31 AM   #147 (permalink)
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Not bad at all
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Old October 26th, 2011, 11:46 AM   #148 (permalink)
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I can still see the screen door effect or pattern visibility in the white background.
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Old October 26th, 2011, 12:24 PM   #149 (permalink)
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On principle, I don't buy the argument that the issue goes away as you increase the resolution, even though it's a true statement. It's like saying that a blurry camera becomes acceptable if you keep adding megapixels to the image. That way you can downsize it and it will appear sharp. Well, yeah, but wouldn't it be better to just have a sharp camera regardless of the megapixels?
I get your points on others, but this one is not quite right. If a camera lens makes blurry shots due to poor lens, adding more mega pixels won't help the image quality at all. Adding more mega pixels to small sensor actually hurts image quality due to increasing noise and firmware trying to reduce noise and resharpen it in post processing. It results in smeared, rough image with artifacts. Today's small digicams with small 1/2.3" sensor are actually overblown in mega pixel war because marketing folks use people's wrong perception that higher mega pixel equates to better, sharper image.

Theoretically you are right on the visual artifacts, defects of pentile screen. But SAMOLED+ screen with RGB stripe is more costly at the same resolution, so it takes a while until manufacturing cost settles down to reasonable level for phone makers. Honestly at 720p resolution, this won't be issue except for someone like you staring phone at distance less than inch or using magnifier on screen to look for any artifacts. Even on the notorious Bionic screen with RGBW pentile, I couldn't see artifacts until I put it very close to eye.
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Old October 26th, 2011, 02:15 PM   #150 (permalink)
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Quote:
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On principle, I don't buy the argument that the issue goes away as you increase the resolution, even though it's a true statement. It's like saying that a blurry camera becomes acceptable if you keep adding megapixels to the image. That way you can downsize it and it will appear sharp. Well, yeah, but wouldn't it be better to just have a sharp camera regardless of the megapixels?
The analogy is closer to to comparing 480p video to a 720p video with a higher compression rate.

The 720p will have higher sharpness but if you look closely, you can see more artifacts in the picture. It is a fair trade off depending on how well the compression is executed.
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