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Old February 22nd, 2011, 04:02 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Those IDIOTS at Samsung!!!!!

K, so we just go the demo for the Galaxy S 4g in our store today.... and despite conflicting reports, it most certainly will NOT have an LED flash on the camera.

IMBECILES!
Why would you make a $500+ phone of this caliber, and market it as a flagship device, without putting even a basic flash on it??

Yes, I'm aware that this might not mean much to many of you... but then again, most of us here aren't exactly the typical phone-buying customer.

Our store kept detailed records on customer interaction, for all of our top smartphones, and by farrrrrrr the number one reason for customers not wanting the Vibrant, was the lack of a flash on the camera. We recorded nearly 20xs more rejects for that reason than for the #2 (no physical keyboard). Less than 1 out of 14 of those customers were swayed when we demonstrated the low-light photo mode. It REALLY is a big deal!

Ugh, I can't believe they did this.... AGAIN!
HTC is going to continue wiping the floor with them in sales, just like last time. I'm truly stunned by this.

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Old February 22nd, 2011, 04:55 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Flash is oversold.

Flash washes out color in a photo. And once color is washed out, you can't add it back in.

If a photo is "too dark" you can actually lighten the photo so that the color shows properly by color correcting the levels with something like Photoshop.

I disable the flash on my digital cameras whenever possible. I learned the hard way you can't fix a whitewashed image. But you can fix an image that seems totally black!
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Old February 23rd, 2011, 07:21 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I used to be on the "flash is oversold" bandwagon but I've converted to wanting a flash. I have an HTC G2 right now and am not a fan of a physical keyboard as I thought I might be when I got rid of my iPhone so I've been looking at this phone as a potential replacement.
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Old February 23rd, 2011, 07:40 AM   #4 (permalink)
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A flash is nice, but it usually washes out the subject - as mentioned above. You get much better pics by just adding light in another way, turn on lights, open blinds, something.
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Old February 23rd, 2011, 11:34 AM   #5 (permalink)
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the LED flash on every droid phone I have had is NOT useful for pictures AT ALL, but it is MORE important as having an actual flashlight. I seriously use the flashlight on my Droid X ALL THE TIME and im contemplating switching to this phone, but that is a big negative to me....
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Old February 24th, 2011, 01:21 PM   #6 (permalink)
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So I bought a mytouch 4G with a flash but took it back right away and exchanged it for this phone. The camera features on the MT4G were nowhere near as good as on the Galaxy S series. Yeah it would be better with a flash, but the night mode is convenient enough during those dark situations. I didn't exchange the phone simply for this reason, however this was definitely one of the deciding factors for me.
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Old February 28th, 2011, 12:15 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Wow...This is like a Big deal to a lot of people! Anyway, I have the Fascinate and I hardly use the Flash. I may opt for this phone simply because vzw is major rip off, and there 3G service has been horrendous the last 2 weeks....I have no idea if it has something to do with 4G coming? But I can't watch a simple YouTube video without it freezing...no its not the phone, I just had it replaced, and both have the same problem.
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Old February 28th, 2011, 05:59 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I don't use the flash on any camera....
As said, it does wash the person out or subject out(although some ppl like this...why idk)

Besides i dont take pix in low light anyway so it doesn't bother me if the phone doesn't have a flash but it really is useful as a flashlight

On my mytouch, i mainly use the FFC for taking pics of myself anyway
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Old March 1st, 2011, 08:53 AM   #9 (permalink)
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the LED flash on every droid phone I have had is NOT useful for pictures AT ALL, but it is MORE important as having an actual flashlight. I seriously use the flashlight on my Droid X ALL THE TIME and im contemplating switching to this phone, but that is a big negative to me....
There are a few "flashlight" apps in the app store.

I use the simple one called Flashlight.

Turns the whole screen bright white. Quite useful as a flashflight, so you don't necessarily need an LED to use your phone as a flashlight.

There are a few apps that turns the screen to pyschedelic bright colors, not just white. You have options.
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Old March 1st, 2011, 12:57 PM   #10 (permalink)
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There are a few "flashlight" apps in the app store.

I use the simple one called Flashlight.

Turns the whole screen bright white. Quite useful as a flashflight, so you don't necessarily need an LED to use your phone as a flashlight.

There are a few apps that turns the screen to pyschedelic bright colors, not just white. You have options.
please my friend, do not think for a second that turning the whole screen bright white is a substitute for two bright LED's

I already bought the phone, so this is a reality I have to deal with, but it is not even close to the same!
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Old March 1st, 2011, 01:12 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Well i've used flash light apps like that and to be honest, it worked pretty great for it just to be the screen.

When you use the screen flashlight apps instead of the Flash on the back as a flightlight, it is still pretty good. it's like One flashlight(Or just a regular LED flash light)
and then of course the flash on the back is super bright...Dual LED
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Old March 1st, 2011, 01:14 PM   #12 (permalink)
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jeez carmen, just slap me in the face why dontcha....
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Old March 1st, 2011, 05:28 PM   #13 (permalink)
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jeez carmen, just slap me in the face why dontcha....
lol what you mean?
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Old March 1st, 2011, 05:38 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Wow, all this time 99% of pictures taken by anyone I know have all been overwashed or whatever. crazy me. All those stupid digital camera makers putting flashes on their cameras, only to make the pictures worse. And no, pictures usually look like crap if you try to touch up lighting to brighten an especially dark picture.

No, a white screen is nowhere near the evo death ray. Please be realistic.

Also, just last week I needed a part number on a label on a cylinder, inside a machine. I couldn't get a flashlight and a camera in. My evo grabbed a perfect shot with the LED on, and I got my part number, without taking an extra hour to pull the cylinder out.

I really like your guys' responses though.. Stupid consumers.. they should just spend hours learning PS, and then edit every photo taken in sub optimal lighting. Or, why don't they open a window? The sun is always out!


edit: And regardless of how YOU feel, the OP has research from a cell phone seller, showing to the average consumer, flash is a big deal. It was a bad move on samsung's part, even if you think poop will stop smelling if you take a picture of it without a flash... lol
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Old March 1st, 2011, 05:39 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Mike, whatcha doing all the time that requires you to have a flashlight? Midnight creepin'?
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Old March 2nd, 2011, 09:48 AM   #16 (permalink)
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I use Evernote like a document scanner. It has great OCR text recognition for images, which turns the picture into a regular note you can search for, even with hand written text.

I took a picture of a white page the other day without flash on my G2 and it came out with a light brown background (day time, indoors, blinds closed.) Now imagine trying to do that with a business card in a dark night club.

It seems like flash would be necessary for document imaging, no? This is one point I'm considering while trying to decide whether to trade my G2 for the SG4g.
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Old March 2nd, 2011, 10:00 AM   #17 (permalink)
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I do agree about the flash light. I use IndrediLight and you wanna talk about bright?!

Of course it does consume what little battery life we have, and you can just get a keychain LED light for $3 from the hardware store. Mine is less bright than the phone's though, I must say, but there are good ones for $12 or so. In a pinch these will do as a camera flash for closeup shots.

But then you're back to DIY workarounds as mentioned by Tempusfugit.
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Old March 2nd, 2011, 04:43 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Wow, all this time 99% of pictures taken by anyone I know have all been overwashed or whatever. crazy me. All those stupid digital camera makers putting flashes on their cameras, only to make the pictures worse. And no, pictures usually look like crap if you try to touch up lighting to brighten an especially dark picture.

No, a white screen is nowhere near the evo death ray. Please be realistic.

Also, just last week I needed a part number on a label on a cylinder, inside a machine. I couldn't get a flashlight and a camera in. My evo grabbed a perfect shot with the LED on, and I got my part number, without taking an extra hour to pull the cylinder out.

I really like your guys' responses though.. Stupid consumers.. they should just spend hours learning PS, and then edit every photo taken in sub optimal lighting. Or, why don't they open a window? The sun is always out!


edit: And regardless of how YOU feel, the OP has research from a cell phone seller, showing to the average consumer, flash is a big deal. It was a bad move on samsung's part, even if you think poop will stop smelling if you take a picture of it without a flash... lol
To-may-to To-mah-to.

For night club photos, photos on facebook, basic levels adjustments in PS will fix a too-dark photo.

Same photo that is washed out stays washed out. No fixes available. The white just gets whiter or grayer when you adjust levels, color can't be added in.

People can be cattle. Someone says jump, so people jump and don't question it.
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Old March 3rd, 2011, 12:27 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Wow, all this time 99% of pictures taken by anyone I know have all been overwashed or whatever. crazy me. All those stupid digital camera makers putting flashes on their cameras, only to make the pictures worse.
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I really like your guys' responses though.. Stupid consumers.. they should just spend hours learning PS, and then edit every photo taken in sub optimal lighting. Or, why don't they open a window? The sun is always out!
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edit: And regardless of how YOU feel, the OP has research from a cell phone seller, showing to the average consumer, flash is a big deal. It was a bad move on samsung's part, even if you think poop will stop smelling if you take a picture of it without a flash... lol
THANK YOU! lol

I thought I preemptively addressed each one of these points in the opener, but I guess many felt the need to broadcast them anyways.

One thing that I think many are failing to grasp here is that the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of people who are buying smartphones in our corporate store locations are not tech-savvy. If for nothing else than the fact that techies typically skip the store and buy theirs online. Yet, the majority of our smartphone sales still take place in the stores, so what's that tell you about the consumers overall?

Ya gotta keep in mind that every day we're selling to people (across the age spectrum) who are coming in with RAZRs and Nokia candybar phones, but wanting MyTouch4Gs and GalaxyS4Gs as their first smartphones. And you're fooling yourself if you think most of them are doing research as to what those phones entail or can do-- they want them because they're big, "pretty," the Joneses have them, and/or because "that fine white-girl on the TV commercial" was talking about them.

It's difficult enough to teach these types what Android is, what it does, help them set up a Gmail, and access Android market... all within a reasonable time-frame, one that doesn't incite a riot by the people waiting in line behind them. If we're reallllly feeling generous/lucky, we'll be able to teach them how to mount and transfer files, or create privacy patterns.

Picture editing? Photo-quality manipulation?? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!! You gotta be kidding me. We still get "how do I use the camera on this thing?" when there's a giant camera icon sitting dead-center in their home screen.

Even if we were to show them the very basics of stuff like that, the instant we surpass their level of tech comfort, they'll just start shaking their heads and agreeing with us, leave at the first opportunity, and later return the phone after they still don't have half a clue what they heard us say.

************************

But y'know what, all of this aside: the initial point of the thread has proven itself precient thus far.

Wednesday marked our first full week of sales for the GalaxyS4G; and despite the MyTouch losing its rebate (in this market), heavy promotion of the Galaxy, and heavy discounting in order to price-match Radio Shack and Best Buy..... the MyTouch has still outsold it (in our store anyways) neary 3 to 1.

Biggest complaint about the Galaxy? Bet ya can't guessssss..........
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Old March 3rd, 2011, 10:28 PM   #20 (permalink)
 
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So I know there is a Night Mode, but how do I but how do I edit out darkness if that wasn't sufficient.
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Old March 5th, 2011, 12:03 AM   #21 (permalink)
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So I know there is a Night Mode, but how do I but how do I edit out darkness if that's was sufficient?
Download Adobe Photoshop Express from the Market and use the Contrast option to lighten the photo.
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Old March 7th, 2011, 09:40 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Tempusfugit & ImmortalSynn

What is your problem?

The pictures are just fine without a flash...Unless it's pitch dark...and who takes a picture in pitch dark? As long as there is basically any light present, Night Mode will enhance the light to make the picture turn out. It's actually quite brilliant.

I really don't think there is a need for such vehemence on an Android message board, sirs.

A little aside on some of your comments on consumers and your little social experiment on the selling of this phone vs MT4G:

You said that there was extensive marketing of the SGS4G? Where? Anytime I see a T-MO commercial it's for the MT4G. I actually don't think I've seen ONE commercial for the SGS4G.

You must have a real contempt for your customers...you talk about them like they are complete morons...It's kinda sad, actually. I work in the same industry and am baffled at how you could meet any sales goal with an attitude like that towards your customers. Also, it helps me understand why people in our positions are so dreaded.
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Old March 7th, 2011, 09:50 PM   #23 (permalink)
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What is your problem?
That a company made a crappy decision, shown to be out of line with our regional customers' desire, that thus affects my potential for income.

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The pictures are just fine without a flash
I don't recall arguing that they don't-- um, have you even READ the primary complain of this post??

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and who takes a picture in pitch dark?
Plenty of people.

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As long as there is basically any light present, Night Mode will enhance the light to make the picture turn out. It's actually quite brilliant.
It's imbecilic. Because with low-end electronics, PERCEPTION may as well be REALITY, and our data very clearly shows that our customers don't like not having that option (whether they realize its merit or not) and thus spending isn't want we wanted/expected it to be for that product. This truly is *not* difficult to grasp.....

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I really don't think
Yes, I've noticed...

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A little aside on some of your comments on consumers and your little social experiment on the selling of this phone vs MT4G:
"my" "little social experiment" happens to involve compiled information from weeks of sales from more than 100 corporate retailers..... tell me, from whence do you derive yours?

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Anytime I see a T-MO commercial it's for the MT4G.
And lord knows that *your* limited perception encompasses the full extent of our/Samsung's cooperative marketing efforts, right?

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You must have a real contempt for your customers. You talk about them like they are complete morons...It's kinda sad, actually.
What's sad? ...that you're too inexperienced to yet tell the difference between catering to market trends versus "contempt" for those who provide revenue-potential transactions? lol

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I work in the same industry and am baffled at how you could meet any sales goal with an attitude like that towards your customers.
And yet, in four years, I nor my team have never failed to make monthly nor quarterly plan... so curious, what's that tell you about your aforementioned assessment? See an inherent flaw? ....granted, the question's rhetorical, but try it anyways, just for amusement.
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Old March 7th, 2011, 11:55 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Jesus...you don't much like being opposed, do you? You get all PMS-y.

So Sorry...you and your misguided Reality is obviously something we should all accept.


By the way...If you ever want to guarantee yourself the wrong answer...ask a hundred people.

All that matters is ones opinion of the phone. I happen to love the phone. There are plenty of people out there who do. I'm sorry that you don't...but I really don't think Samsung cares. They are gonna make money whether Mr. Salesman of the Month likes their device or not.

And might I add...You just did the same thing to me that you apparently do to your customers...Belittle and Talk down to...You are a class act, sir.
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Old March 8th, 2011, 12:34 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Jesus...you don't much like being opposed, do you? You get all PMS-y.
Nah, just direct. You'll be able to differentiate the two someday... hopefully.


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By the way...If you ever want to guarantee yourself the wrong answer...ask a hundred people.

All that matters is ones opinion of the phone.
Are you truly this dim, or just being willfully stupid?
I'm not sure how you continually manage to miss this (rather basic) point: but I (nor really anyone else here) am not lamenting the phone's capability, or anyone's opinion on it per se...

...I'm remarking that regional research trends for its predecessor showed a pronounced disapproval of it missing a certain feature (i.e., LED flash in this case) in those who were in the market for, but chose not to, purchase it; and the fact that that same disapproval in potential buyers seems to be prevalent with this model. We're not asking "do you like this phone," "is it a good phone," etc. We're essentially saying "based on your wants/needs, you described the market-segment where this phone leads in several areas of performance-- what then was your single largest reason for choosing to purchase a different model?" And we're easily seeing the top answer: no flash. That's not an opinion, that's an expression of fact: I didn't buy it for **this** reason. Period.

Granted, it's not the only reason for sales being below expectations (economy, price of fuel, tax rebates not received, etc etc), but it's the most frequently mentioned among the breath of clientele surveyed in the region.

Do you get it now? I'm at a loss as to how to drive the point home more simplistically than that... save for the use of a sledgehammer.
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Old March 8th, 2011, 12:55 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Maybe because, in trying to get your point across, you came off as belittling and mocked others just because they thought differently...just a guess.


Oh...and that regional research trends (IE asking some customers why they chose a phone that you seem to have such love for over another phone that you obviously are less than thrilled with yourself) prolly doesn't mean much to a multi-billion dollar company. Just sayin'.

But since we are obviously bastions of healthy debate:

I don't like trackpads or trackballs on phones. A lot of people share that opinion. I'd be willing to bet if I did the research that that would be one of if not the most used reasons to choose another phone over, say, the MT4G. Does that mean that the people at HTC are Imbeciles for choosing to keep it over from the MT3G?
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Old March 8th, 2011, 01:12 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by wmikemon View Post
just because they thought differently
...orrrr, could it be that "they" had an idea stuck in their heads, one had no relevance to the subject at hand (which they'd know if they actually paid attention to what was being discussed)-- then "they" rather annoyingly used it as a rebuttal to an issue that wasn't even raised?

Hmm, perspective, wonderful thing.


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Originally Posted by wmikemon View Post
Oh...and that regional research trends (IE asking some customers why they chose a phone that you seem to have such love for over another phone that you obviously are less than thrilled with yourself) prolly doesn't mean much to a multi-billion dollar company. Just sayin'.
Excepppppppt when it's done by the constituencies of another multi-billion dollar company, who at the end of a sales push and/or seasonal promotion, will compile said information from across its various regions (not just this one) and use that info to construct a Demand-VOC report... which is sorrrrrrrta a rather integral part of how they decide which products to offer from the aforementioned multi-billion dollar companies; and also something even the most lowly peon, in the industry that you claim to be a part of, would know. Just sayin'.


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I don't like trackpads or trackballs on phones. A lot of people share that opinion.
....which is precisely why you no longer see it on any of T-Mobiles phones, in particularly blackberries. Same with the styluses of yore. Funny how that works.


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Originally Posted by wmikemon View Post
I'd be willing to bet if I did the research that that would be one of if not the most used reasons to choose another phone over, say, the MT4G. Does that mean that the people at HTC are Imbeciles for choosing to keep it over from the MT3G?
Nope, they were actually quite smart about it. They offered the G2 to cater to that market, made it clear that it would be the only Android 2.x+ device with a tactile pad for the next 2 foreseeable quarters, and chose to restrict the core "Sense" platform such that the G2 would be easily upgradeable, should they decide to retain it as the sole tactile device for an extended period beyond originally-set time frame......... all why offering the MyTouch4G, HD7, etc for the growing market that preferred to leave the qwertys behind.

So in summary, they gave their customers a CHOICE: get an HTC with a qwerty, get it pure-touch, etc. Samsung's refusal to offer a choice, particularly when combined with the superficial buying habits of the cellphone market in general, really turns a lot of potential buyers off. And some not. That's all I'm saying.
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Old March 8th, 2011, 05:09 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Hi folks, one of your friendly forum moderators here....

We've got Site Rules & Guidelines here at AF, one of which states,

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These forums were put together for Android fans to come together and help each other, collaborate and discuss in a positive way – not bash on someone because you don't like their idea, or because they don't share the same views as you.
People all have differing opinions and disagreeing is fine. What's not fine is being disrespectful to others for holding an opinion different to yours. Please bear this in mind.
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Old March 20th, 2011, 01:41 AM   #29 (permalink)
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... This is so very easy to sum up... a flash on a phone is a clear and present FEATURE on a phone with picture taking capabilities. Period...

If you take a picture with the flash and feel it's washed out, take another one with the night mode instead then pick the picture you like best. Rarely is it impossible to re-take a picture... I'm sure you wouldn't have time to adjust the settings for your once in a lifetime Pulitzer prize winner in any case. For all the other situations... tell everyone to keep smiling while you take a second pic.

If you need to see something in the dark and have a flash on your camera to use as a flashlight... how can this be seen as anything but a handy feature? Stop trying to find arguments against it... sure you can use the screen as a low powered version... but couldn't you do that if you had a flash as well? Hmmm... a choice between a (relatively) bright led torch... or the soft glow of the white amoled display. Clearly having an option is better than no option at all...

Who cares if you can get by without a flash... or even if you SHOULD get by without one... having one is not hurting anybody... I say ALL phones from here on out should have a flash on them (AND A STINKING LED INDICATOR TO BOOT). Period.

And the people that sympathize and say we can live without them just need to shhhhhhh ... and let it happen.

Flash = Good, even if it's just sometimes.
No flash = No choice at all.

I agree completely that Samsung missed something so simple and it's a shame. I will be using the Galaxy S 4g until the S2 comes out
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Old March 21st, 2011, 08:20 PM   #30 (permalink)
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lmao who knew a flash would rile the android fanboys up
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Old March 22nd, 2011, 07:27 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by BookLover View Post
Flash is oversold.

Flash washes out color in a photo. And once color is washed out, you can't add it back in.

If a photo is "too dark" you can actually lighten the photo so that the color shows properly by color correcting the levels with something like Photoshop.

I disable the flash on my digital cameras whenever possible. I learned the hard way you can't fix a whitewashed image. But you can fix an image that seems totally black!
Technically incorrect..

Light is what makes colour possible.
Extra light at an appropriate distance will make colours more vivid.
Flash is useless in great lighting conditions, but people generally take quick pics on their phones in all sorts of poor lighting. It's handy to have a flash, even if it's a dim LED one.

Here's a link that shows what i'm on about:

Login | Facebook

Flash is no good for pics where mirrors are involved, as the light is refracted and the image is darkened.
No good for little to no light, unless it's a xenon flash at an appropriate distance.
Flash is no good if you're capturing an entire scene or taking a massive group photo, as it creates shadows, overexposes some areas and under exposes others. If extra light is needed for a scenic/large area photo, either switch to low light mode or use multiple diffused flashes (like those umbrella ones that photographers use).

Phones without flash can generally make up for it with low light modes, but it doesn't help with those crazy pitch black shots, so I would like to have one on board...

thanx
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