Id hate to be annoying but do you know where I can find the instructions for windows xp or should the instructions thats posted everywhere work with XP? Im really confused right now all i need is for this unknown device to be recgonized and Ill have all these updates pat..Samsung studio PC isnt showing any USB devices.. uhm what should I do as installing the driver.. should I search for it or install it directly i mean what are the steps as to installing the drivers?
Id hate to be annoying but do you know where I can find the instructions for windows xp or should the instructions thats posted everywhere work with XP? Im really confused right now all i need is for this unknown device to be recgonized and Ill have all these updates pat..Samsung studio PC isnt showing any USB devices.. uhm what should I do as installing the driver.. should I search for it or install it directly i mean what are the steps as to installing the drivers?
They are generic steps for all Windows based OS versions.. Samsung studio pc is not a problem you should USE, but it contains the drivers that your computer needs.. if you plugged it in before you had the drivers and it is at unknown device you need to go into the device manager and uninstall that.. then unplug the usb and plug it back in.. hopefully it will find the drivers this time.. other then that i do not know because i never had this problem...
Nearly all of its guidelines are for Nickel-based rechargables; they would harm a LiIon battery. I almost wonder if it's even written by the same person throughout:
"NiCad batteries are rechargeable, whereas Lithium and alkaline batteries are not rechargeable."
This doesn't explain why the Samsung Moment has awful battery life (mine does as well), but it does clear up some non-reasons.
Personally I think the Moment has a power-hungry CPU, a small battery, and an irresponsible manufacturer. Hopefully fixes to Android and reducing the number of background apps can mitigate the issue, but ultimately the culpability lies with Samsung. I'm very disappointed.
As a point of comparison, my previous Windows Mobile phone by HTC had a 1500mAh battery, and a 400Mhz Qualcomm CPU. The Samsung Moment has a smaller 1350mAh battery, and a 800Mhz Samsung CPU.
One of the primary arbiters of power draw in any CPU is Mhz. You can increase speed with efficiency, or just slamming it with more power. The latter increases Mhz, the former leaves Mhz be but gets more operations per second out of the same cycles.
I canNOT find any claim as to the wattage draw of the s3c6410 CPU in the Samsung Moment, especially on Samsung's site which is not a good sign. I can find performance reviews showing that the s3c6410 is significantly less efficient than for example the Qualcomm Snapdragon CPU found in the Nexus One.
This doesn't explain why the Samsung Moment has awful battery life (mine does as well), but it does clear up some non-reasons.
The battery is fine. It's the battery meter that's giving you incorrect readings. The battery meter tells the phone when to turn off the keyboard back light and when to shut down, prematurely.
I used to get horrible battery life but after installing a new kernel (with meter code written by numus) my battery can last 2 days with light usage and 24 hours with moderate to heavy usage. Read the posts in this thread by numus and it'll become clear.
Yup, definately software related. I too was having horrible battery life until I flashed Zefie's latest kernel (10.3). Now I can run 12 hours with moderate use and the battery is still at 60%.
Nearly all of its guidelines are for Nickel-based rechargables; they would harm a LiIon battery. I almost wonder if it's even written by the same person throughout:
"NiCad batteries are rechargeable, whereas Lithium and alkaline batteries are not rechargeable."
This doesn't explain why the Samsung Moment has awful battery life (mine does as well), but it does clear up some non-reasons.
Personally I think the Moment has a power-hungry CPU, a small battery, and an irresponsible manufacturer. Hopefully fixes to Android and reducing the number of background apps can mitigate the issue, but ultimately the culpability lies with Samsung. I'm very disappointed.
As a point of comparison, my previous Windows Mobile phone by HTC had a 1500mAh battery, and a 400Mhz Qualcomm CPU. The Samsung Moment has a smaller 1350mAh battery, and a 800Mhz Samsung CPU.
One of the primary arbiters of power draw in any CPU is Mhz. You can increase speed with efficiency, or just slamming it with more power. The latter increases Mhz, the former leaves Mhz be but gets more operations per second out of the same cycles.
I canNOT find any claim as to the wattage draw of the s3c6410 CPU in the Samsung Moment, especially on Samsung's site which is not a good sign. I can find performance reviews showing that the s3c6410 is significantly less efficient than for example the Qualcomm Snapdragon CPU found in the Nexus One.
Note.. The battery in the moment IS NOT REGULATED BY A FUEL GAUGE!
Big thing to understand, single cell batteries do not have fuel gauge regulators.. PACKS have fuel gauges (these are also known as PCMs).. so there is no calibration period...
Last edited by numus; February 18th, 2010 at 05:07 PM.
Yup, definately software related. I too was having horrible battery life until I flashed Zefie's latest kernel (10.3). Now I can run 12 hours with moderate use and the battery is still at 60%.
My phone went red after 37 hours.
downloaded a half dozen apps, read some news, texted a bunch, had about 15 minutes of phone calls, and listend to the radio (streamfurious) for 30 minutes - oh, all with "location" options enabled, and bluetooth on.
The battery is fine. It's the battery meter that's giving you incorrect readings. The battery meter tells the phone when to turn off the keyboard back light and when to shut down, prematurely.
I used to get horrible battery life but after installing a new kernel (with meter code written by numus) my battery can last 2 days with light usage and 24 hours with moderate to heavy usage. Read the posts in this thread by numus and it'll become clear.
How do I download and install a new kernel the one with meter code written by numus? Do I need to take the phone appart or what? Is it executable software? or do I need to know code?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramiss
Yup, definately software related. I too was having horrible battery life until I flashed Zefie's latest kernel (10.3). Now I can run 12 hours with moderate use and the battery is still at 60%.
What do you mean by "flashing Zefie's lates kernel (10.3)? Is it software with an executable file?
The battery thing is driving me nuts! I turned off my GPS, turned Facebook to never update, and my weather app to update every 2 hours. I can take the phone off the charger in the morning at 100% and send 4 texts and read through 15 twitter updates and my battery is at "70%". I am literally scared to use my damn phone. I have the official CL14 update from Sprint, is it worth trying to flash a custom kernal or should I just go complain to Sprint and switch to the BB Tour? I love this phone with the apps, but damn I can go days on my BB without charging it with heavy use. Help me here guys...
Yup, definately software related. I too was having horrible battery life until I flashed Zefie's latest kernel (10.3). Now I can run 12 hours with moderate use and the battery is still at 60%.
The battery thing is driving me nuts! I turned off my GPS, turned Facebook to never update, and my weather app to update every 2 hours. I can take the phone off the charger in the morning at 100% and send 4 texts and read through 15 twitter updates and my battery is at "70%". I am literally scared to use my damn phone. I have the official CL14 update from Sprint, is it worth trying to flash a custom kernal or should I just go complain to Sprint and switch to the BB Tour? I love this phone with the apps, but damn I can go days on my BB without charging it with heavy use. Help me here guys...
Have you tried downloading an app killer? There might be a lot more apps that are turned on that you are not aware of.
I tried a few searches and came up with nothing so a quick battery related question, and if there is already an answer somewhere a link would be fine:
Somtimes ill be charging my phone and I get an error that says "not approved battery" and it will then stop charging? What's the reason for this and how do I fix it?
my phone stopped taking a charge on friday - 2/26 - around 2:30pm.
i received a pop-up on my PC while my Moment was plugged in via USB that "the device has reached its power limit" and then stopped taking a charge.
the battery went dead faster than usual on last wednesday and thursday... and then died on friday. if that is any sort of indication that something bad is about to happen.
i had plans friday night, so i readied my back-up phone and i took my Moment to the service center on saturday. they told me i had a "bad" battery and that they had to order one since they didn't have any.
so i wait. they call me late monday, saying the battery had arrived.
i show up, hand them my phone and about a minute later, they tell me that it is the phone and not the battery.
they say that the "computer is bad."
they put in an order for a replacement.
history: i got my Moment the day it released and had a crappy battery in the beginning and did the conditioning thing - which did seem to work - but i would suggest that anyone having any issues with their battery should take it in to have it tested.
I too have recently had new battery problems. I've had mine since shortly after it was released. After replacing the kernel around the beginning of January my battery usage went from dismal to great. About two days between charges. Day before yesterday, that changed. I'm now back to dismal.
What is an app killer and what is the best one to get and where do i get it. I just got my Moment this weekend and still figuring it out!
App Killer is an application that allows you to kill apps that still run in the background even after you have close them up...
It was the very first app that I got on my phone...
In your phone, tap on the market button, then when you are there click menu, then search, then type "app killer" it should give you a few choices to download...
Last edited by godsdragon; March 3rd, 2010 at 11:10 PM.
Reason: adding info
App Killer is an application that allows you to kill apps that still run in the background even after you have close them up...
It was the very first app that I got on my phone...
In your phone, tap on the market button, then when you are there click menu, then search, then type "app killer" it should give you a few choices to download...
do u have one that you recommend? i read on another thread that an app kill can mess up your phone, is that true?
do u have one that you recommend? i read on another thread that an app kill can mess up your phone, is that true?
I grabbed the Advanced Task Killer about 2 days after receiving my Moment and now battery lasts all day......as far as messing up the phone, I have experienced 0 problems and I'm a android newbie...........
Note.. The battery in the moment IS NOT REGULATED BY A FUEL GAUGE!
Big thing to understand, single cell batteries do not have fuel gauge regulators.. PACKS have fuel gauges (these are also known as PCMs).. so there is no calibration period...
Which is better for battery life ; to let it run down completely before recharging or recharge at 40%, 30% 15%, etc.?
I've done the same. I've fully charged it using top off method, then drained it completely (until the phone turns off by itself and won't turn on for more than 10 seconds). Using the top off method, the phone actually lasts about 30 hours total without a charge under normal usage (ten calls, no long conversations, texts, some e-mail). Under complete heavy usage, (using gps wherever I go, looking up maps, having auto sync on, surfing the web) it will last you about 16 hours, which is about right considering and comparing all the other smart touchscreen phones out there like the iPhone and HTC Touch Pro 2 (with touchflow on). Hope I've helped. Enjoy!
After tinkering around with this... I found out that the battery meter does not "get more accurate" with every charge after you run it down to nothing. This is what I found however:
1. I tried overcharging it (for whole 24 hours) again to see if it helps the battery. It did. I took my phone off the charger Saturday morning this weekend, and used it heavily with calls (about 4 hours of total talk time), texts, internet (to look up maps) for the whole weekend. I didn't charge it until Monday morning and it was still alive!
2. Don't trust the battery meter. It was on low (red) sunday afternoon, but it lasted until monday morning.
3. Bluetooth on, GPS on, and the usual syncs.
4. Please try running the battery down to nothing before you say "it's out of battery" 'cause I think that's the biggest problem people are having here. They think it's out, but it's not really out. Run it down until it turns off and you'll see really how long the battery lasts.
Ok so I just got a moment and I took some tips from this thread.
1. When I got the phone I played with it until it died all the way until it wouldnt turn back on.
2. I charged it til it was full and it took about 3 hours exactly
3. Then I took it off of the charger and Im waiting for it to die again without charging so i can fully charge it again. My battery has been alive since 7:00 p.m. yesterday so Im at about 13 hours today.
4. Ima report back here and let you all know how long it lasts til next recharge but this seems pretty good compared to some of the other posts Ive read.
I updated the phone to CL14, but I am not seeing any impovement to the battery life! In fact, it is worse than before the upgrade. Before the update, my battery was lasting almost 3 days, now it is just making the second days on almost on stand by. Anyone have the same experience? I thought the update would getting more usuage time out of the battery.
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OK, I did the update that was offered on the Sprint Site, but I'm still getting wrong battery meter reads/low battery after a few hours. What is the definite fix of this? When I did the update on the Sprint site it said to let the battery charge fully, but how do you know its full if the meter is faulty? so after near an hour + of charging it read about 90% on the battery widget so I gave the upgrade a try, but 2 days later I'm still having the same problem, any tips?
OK, I did the update that was offered on the Sprint Site, but I'm still getting wrong battery meter reads/low battery after a few hours. What is the definite fix of this? When I did the update on the Sprint site it said to let the battery charge fully, but how do you know its full if the meter is faulty? so after near an hour + of charging it read about 90% on the battery widget so I gave the upgrade a try, but 2 days later I'm still having the same problem, any tips?
The meter is still faulty.. i recoded it using the cl14 kernel base code and it has been implemented in all custom kernels outside the sprint/samsung offical...
There are open records and posts somewhere on sdx (can't go searching for it now) where i document pretty much everything i changed...
The meter is still faulty.. i recoded it using the cl14 kernel base code and it has been implemented in all custom kernels outside the sprint/samsung offical...
There are open records and posts somewhere on sdx (can't go searching for it now) where i document pretty much everything i changed...
Hi numus,
I am too lazy to search for your custom kernels link. How about providing a link to your custom kernels and install instructions when you have time? Thanks.
I am too lazy to search for your custom kernels link. How about providing a link to your custom kernels and install instructions when you have time? Thanks.
I have searched the forums but found no answers to this particular problem. I upgraded to to the cl14 firmware provided by zefie when the sprint update went completely wrong on my phone. The cl14 update from zefie increased my battery life from 5 hours to over 30 hours. It was good times. One weekend my battery dropped to 6-7 hours where it remains today. I have loaded the sprint firmware and no change. I am now on zefie's custom 14.3 kernal and still only 6-7 hours of battery life. Does anyone have any suggestions?
I have searched the forums but found no answers to this particular problem. I upgraded to to the cl14 firmware provided by zefie when the sprint update went completely wrong on my phone. The cl14 update from zefie increased my battery life from 5 hours to over 30 hours. It was good times. One weekend my battery dropped to 6-7 hours where it remains today. I have loaded the sprint firmware and no change. I am now on zefie's custom 14.3 kernal and still only 6-7 hours of battery life. Does anyone have any suggestions?
I have searched the forums but found no answers to this particular problem. I upgraded to to the cl14 firmware provided by zefie when the sprint update went completely wrong on my phone. The cl14 update from zefie increased my battery life from 5 hours to over 30 hours. It was good times. One weekend my battery dropped to 6-7 hours where it remains today. I have loaded the sprint firmware and no change. I am now on zefie's custom 14.3 kernal and still only 6-7 hours of battery life. Does anyone have any suggestions?
Nope because i have no idea what zefie did to any kernel past 10... See if joey's kernel or speedrabbits have the same problem since i know for a fac tthey are using the most recent battery code modification
Nope because i have no idea what zefie did to any kernel past 10... See if joey's kernel or speedrabbits have the same problem since i know for a fac tthey are using the most recent battery code modification
Thanks for the reply. I actually went to the joey kernel two days ago and notice no difference. Ia couple of weeks ago it was lasting about 30-40 hours and then one day it started to stay warm to hot and the battery started to only last about 6 hours with no usage no matter what kernal I put on. I'm wondering if sprint will do anything about it. Thanks again for any help you can provide.
Thanks for the reply. I actually went to the joey kernel two days ago and notice no difference. Ia couple of weeks ago it was lasting about 30-40 hours and then one day it started to stay warm to hot and the battery started to only last about 6 hours with no usage no matter what kernal I put on. I'm wondering if sprint will do anything about it. Thanks again for any help you can provide.
You install spare parts and see if your phone is sleeping? Sounds like some problem is preventing your phone from sleeping and pulling data also (which would cause it to drain faster).. also are you in a low signal area?
You install spare parts and see if your phone is sleeping? Sounds like some problem is preventing your phone from sleeping and pulling data also (which would cause it to drain faster).. also are you in a low signal area?
Alright I'm installing the spare parts and report back. As far as the low signal goes my loccation hasn't changed from when I had great battery life.
You install spare parts and see if your phone is sleeping? Sounds like some problem is preventing your phone from sleeping and pulling data also (which would cause it to drain faster).. also are you in a low signal area?
Ok so I installed spare parts. I took it off the charger this morning checked it 2 hours later of just sitting on the table and it said time since last sleep after being unplugged was 2 hours and change. How do I find out what is causing it from going to sleep. Also I did factory reset once and it was still giving me the same issues with no apps installed. Thanks.
Wow. After reading a few of these last pages, I just realized how little people know about battery.
There are too much generalization about lithium batteries these days and I hope to clear up some misconceptions.
The term "lithium ion" is actually a general term for many different chemistries of batteries. It's like calling an Asian person "Chinese" or a Hispanic, a "Mexican". To the common layperson, this may be acceptable but allow me to clarify and introduce some of you guys into the culture of batteries.
Currently, the best commercially available batteries are made by a company called A123 Systems. They make their world famous Lithium Nano Phosphate batteries that can be discharged in EXCESS of 90C. For those of you not familiar with C rating, read below. In fact, I'm going to list the basics and explain it so you guys can understand it the way I do.
Voltage. Voltage is electrical pressure. The higher the voltage, the more potential power a battery has.
Amperes or amps. Amps is electrical flow. Think of amps as a hole at the bottom of a dam. If there were 2 hole of the same size in a dam and one of them is at the top while the other is at the bottom, the hole at the bottom will "flow" more water (electricity) because there is more "pressure" at the bottom of the dam.
AH or Amp Hour is the measure of how many amps a battery can discharge or "burn through" in 1 hour. For example, if a battery has 20 AH, it can discharge at 20 amps continuously for 1 hour. This also means it can discharge at 1 amp continuously for 20 hours. Get it?
To put it in clearer perspective, our battery is 1440 mAh or 1.44 AH. This means that it can discharge 1.44 amps continuously for 1 hour before it dies.
There are a few lithium battery chemistries available on the market today and it's important to know and understand them. Lithium Nano Phosphates are the Bugatti Veyron's of batteries. For those who don't know cars, the batteries on our phones are like Corollas whereas the best of the best are Skylines, Ferarri's, etc and so on.
The order from my knowledge goes.
Lithium Nano Phosphate (A123 Cells)
Lithium Manganese (Sony Konion Cells)
LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate)
Lithium Polymer
NIMH
NICD
SLA (Sealed Lead Acid)
The chemistry in our Samsung batteries are probably an upgraded cell of Lithium Polymer. This is from my educated guess and I will explain why. A123 cells are made in America, Konion Cells are made in Japan and everything below that are outsourced in China. Looking at the Samsung Moment's battery, it says "Made In China Finished in Korea". This Confirms to me that these are Lithium Polymer cells.
Using the process of elimination, they cannot be 1 and 2. 1 is made in the US and 2 is made in Japan. This battery cannot be a Lithum Iron Phosphate because LiFePO4 batteries require each cell to be very close in voltage and capacity and this can only be done effectively with an onboard BMS or Battery Management System.
Okay, I am straying far off topic. Getting back to the text I previously bolded, I want to kill a misconception about Lithiums. Lithium batteries in general have very high C rating. a C rating is proportionate to the AH of a battery. For instance if a battery was rated at "1C" and it had 1AH, this means that it can max discharge at 1 amps. If the battery had 2AH and 1C rating, it can max discharge at 2 amps. To put it in comparison between the top battery chemistries, and the chemistry that is in our cell phones. think about this.
A123 cells can charge and discharge at about 90C max. Our generic lithium poly can safely be charged and discharged at 1C max. Does this sound dangerous? This brings me to the common misconception about exploding batteries and today.
When a Lith-ion battery "explodes" it gets short circuited and discharges all of it energy rapidly creating lots of heat. Manufacturers sometimes cut costs and employ "cheap" Chinese battery manufacturers that build the old style cells. New cell construction have holes that open and vent gas when the battery fails preventing an explosion. Unfortunately, when we hear about exploding laptop batteries, we connect the stigma with the batteries itself when we should blame the manufacturer.
The "fuel" in our batteries are measure in Watt hour. Watt hour is Voltage X Amps. Our Samsung Moment battery is rated at 3.7 Volts and 1.44 AH. This means it has the total energy of 5.328 watt hour. (Un)fortunately Li-poly chemistry as well as most Lith-ion with the exception of Lithium Manganese, have very high discharge curve. This is a good and a bad thing. This means that the voltage stays very high up until the battery dies. When the battery dies, voltage drops dramatically. With normal use, voltage will remain high while drawing small amps. Under cpu intensive work or hard use, voltage sags a bit with our batteries. This is very important.
My guess is that our battery monitors (programs, widgets, etc) do their best to calculate the batteries WH and it keeps tract of this partially through voltage readings. Because lithium-polys have a high voltage curve before dying, the measurements and readings are very much dependant on the voltage level. Under heavy load, voltage may sag a bit even if you have plenty of life left.
For instance, I am using the widget "Battery Life" from the marketplace. Because it has the option of showing the voltage, I like it very much considering it has only a 4 star rating. Looking at my widget right now, I am getting a reading of 3938 mV or 3.938 volts. My battery meter says 80%. Are you still with me? Our battery is 3.7 volts. Why is mine 3.9 volts? Well, the reason for that is because it is at the high end of the discharge curve. I wouldn't be surprised if it was 4 volts fully charged. When it drops to 3.4 or 3.35 volts, then I know, "ok, its getting low now."
I see people say, "I just watched 2 video, sent 5 sms and made 1 phone call. Why is my battery at 80% already?! Help!" all the time. My guess is that these "widgets" set it's bar when a battery is hot off the charger. A lithium-ion battery will quickly sag in voltage under immediate usage. This is very common! The problem with most of these widgets is how high they set the bar.
Having said that, I get about 1 full day of fair usage. I do think the Moment could be more energy efficient but this is the price you pay for an 800 mhz processor. In all honestly, i think 1440 mAh is way too low for a smartphone. At least 2AH should be the standard. This is coming from someone that knows a little bit about batteries.
Considering the sharp voltage drop of lithiums due to it's high discharge curve, I'd say our battery actually has 4.8 or 5 watt hour of total energy instead of 5.328 wh.
When your phone "dies", your battery is not technically dead. If you were to completely drain that 5.328 wh of energy in your Moment battery, than it would really be dead. As in, dead as a doorknob dead. The reason your(our) phone dies when we are low on battery is because the battery hits a low voltage cutoff or LVC. In order to preserve the health of a battery, it is important to keep it above the LVC. discharging and going below the LVC can have a serious affect on the battery. Going just a little under can degrade the life cycle by half and going way under can effectively KILL the battery.
Most phone (our's included) keeps track of the batteries voltage and auto shuts off when the battery dies. Even had a phone die on you and it powers down, showing the shut down animation? This is the phone's LVC at work. If the phone did not have a LVC, it wouldn't boot down at all. No fancy animation, it would just work until it dies. Just as if you were using alkaline batteries to power a mini fan. The blades of the fan would just move slower and slower until it dies.
The important thing to realize is that our battery's "fuel" meter is not linear because the voltage is not linear in a lithium-ion battery. In comarison, SLA batteries have a fair straight discharge curve. SLA's are strongest when fully charged and their power decreases after continuous use in a linear time. After continuous use, SLA voltage drops continuously. Think of it as an easy hill. From the top, you gradually coast to the bottom in a straight line. Whereas a lithium-ion battery usually have a high curve were the "hill" is a flat grade until you fall off it's cliff.
I hope this clarifies a few things.
The Following User Says Thank You to setset For This Useful Post:
Setset... very accurate in some aspects in a techincal brief, but none of that has to do with the problem with the moment and it's battery life
The problem is pretty simple in the end..
All these devices can't utilize a direct volt or amp meter.. They utilize an ADC circuit and then use a calculation to determine voltage... they then integrate the voltage curve over the nominal voltage and create a linear decay curve that represents the majority of the voltage except for the very top and very low (very top you have a massive voltage dropout between max voltage and nominal voltage and the same at the bottom... massive dropout after nominal voltage into minimal voltage).... Now this is all fine and dandy and works VERY well in the end.. Except that for the moment they are utilizing an INCREDIBLY low resolution ADC which doesn't include a buffer region... The behold II on the other hand uses a 9bits calculation and has an incredibly HIGH buffer range per voltage (moment outputs ADC values as 10^3 while Behold II outputs adc values as 10^4)... This causes a problem when you have a large demand on the power system, since the voltage is a order of magnitude less then what it should be, any small drop is percieved as a huge voltage change...
I have written all this up over at SDX and explained how i modify the ADC values from stock to integrate a better buffer region so it doesn't drop off to 15% so fast BUT my new decay curve is to linear for my liking (it is based off the numbers samsung calculated and they aren't right (i haven't had time to actually recalibrate the curve) so with the modified cl14 kernels, it isn't as accurate as it was with teh cj05 kernels (since i modified both of them and the cj05 code's decay curve looked incredibly better.. but the values were off in my calculations)...
I have wrote all this to samsung and asked them to switch over to 9bits for higher resolution and got 1 response from the actually code programmer that they would look into the possibility of utilizing this... but no promises
Setset... very accurate in some aspects in a techincal brief, but none of that has to do with the problem with the moment and it's battery life
The problem is pretty simple in the end.. All these devices can't utilize a direct volt or amp meter.. They utilize an ADC circuit and then use a calculation to determine voltage... they then integrate the voltage curve over the nominal voltage and create a linear decay curve that represents the majority of the voltage except for the very top and very low (very top you have a massive voltage dropout between max voltage and nominal voltage and the same at the bottom... massive dropout after nominal voltage into minimal voltage).... Now this is all fine and dandy and works VERY well in the end.. Except that for the moment they are utilizing an INCREDIBLY low resolution ADC which doesn't include a buffer region... The behold II on the other hand uses a 9bits calculation and has an incredibly HIGH buffer range per voltage (moment outputs ADC values as 10^3 while Behold II outputs adc values as 10^4)... This causes a problem when you have a large demand on the power system, since the voltage is a order of magnitude less then what it should be, any small drop is percieved as a huge voltage change...
I have written all this up over at SDX and explained how i modify the ADC values from stock to integrate a better buffer region so it doesn't drop off to 15% so fast BUT my new decay curve is to linear for my liking (it is based off the numbers samsung calculated and they aren't right (i haven't had time to actually recalibrate the curve) so with the modified cl14 kernels, it isn't as accurate as it was with teh cj05 kernels (since i modified both of them and the cj05 code's decay curve looked incredibly better.. but the values were off in my calculations)...
I have wrote all this to samsung and asked them to switch over to 9bits for higher resolution and got 1 response from the actually code programmer that they would look into the possibility of utilizing this... but no promises
Thank you for the reply. I have no info on the actual coding and just wanted to contribute what I know. I've bolded your quote and wanted to touch back on that.
In order for a linear decay curve to work effectively, only 1 chemistry of Lith-ion will work. That's Lithium Manganese aka Sony Konion. The Konion cells are very nice in the sense that that act very much like SLA's but have a much higher energy density. They are also very robust in the sense that they can handle low voltage drain very well.
@ColdStart. To answer you bluntly, yes. We have crappy batteries. Don't feel too bad as this is not just us. All cell phones currently use these batteries. Prismatics cell designs are effective for slimming down the battery but they have a lower energy density than traditional cylindrical cells.
I'm seeing a shift in market trends. Laptops and cell phones are pushing for better battery technology and I just wanted to show you they already exist. The problem right now is mass manufacturing costs. Instead of thinking that there is a wall, just think of it as they haven't caught up.
Many threads are started about improving battery life and I completely agree on that. Those of you guys who are working on it are great! I still believe we need more capacity. Cell phone are getting faster, their screen are getting bigger and yet the "limit" of batteries is still around 1500 mAh? That can't be right. 2 AH should be the minimum standard today, as I write this.
Think about tuning a car. Why spend time and energy tuning a corolla where you could tune a supra? We need a good base to start with and if we want the most out of our phones, we need to start with a good battery. 1440 mAh may be good a few years ago, but not today. I'm still surprised there isn't an upgraded battery available by Seido yet. Most smart phones today have around the same capacity. My last phone was a MyTouch 3g. It lasted about 1 full working day, the same as my Moment. I've talked to people with other smart phones and they too say they get about 1 full day of use. I guess a good idea is to look at other smart phones and see compare the life they are getting in terms of their batteries.
My guess would be they last about the same excluding blackberries with their smaller screens.
Last edited by setset; March 26th, 2010 at 01:38 PM.
Thank you for the reply. I have no info on the actual coding and just wanted to contribute what I know. I've bolded your quote and wanted to touch back on that.
In order for a linear decay curve to work effectively, only 1 chemistry of Lith-ion will work. That's Lithium Manganese aka Sony Konion. The Konion cells are very nice in the sense that that act very much like SLA's but have a much higher energy density. They are also very robust in the sense that they can handle low voltage drain very well.
@ColdStart. To answer you bluntly, yes. We have crappy batteries. Don't feel too bad as this is not just us. All cell phones currently use these batteries. Prismatics cell designs are effective for slimming down the battery but they have a lower energy density than traditional cylindrical cells.
I'm seeing a shift in market trends. Laptops and cell phones are pushing for better battery technology and I just wanted to show you they already exist. The problem right now is mass manufacturing costs. Instead of thinking that there is a wall, just think of it as they haven't caught up.
Many threads are started about improving battery life and I completely agree on that. Those of you guys who are working on it are great! I still believe we need more capacity. Cell phone are getting faster, their screen are getting bigger and yet the "limit" of batteries is still around 1500 mAh? That can't be right. 2 AH should be the minimum standard today, as I write this.
Think about tuning a car. Why spend time and energy tuning a corolla where you could tune a supra? We need a good base to start with and if we want the most out of our phones, we need to start with a good battery. 1440 mAh may be good a few years ago, but not today. I'm still surprised there isn't an upgraded battery available by Seido yet. Most smart phones today have around the same capacity. My last phone was a MyTouch 3g. It lasted about 1 full working day, the same as my Moment. I've talked to people with other smart phones and they too say they get about 1 full day of use. I guess a good idea is to look at other smart phones and see compare the life they are getting in terms of their batteries.
My guess would be they last about the same excluding blackberries with their smaller screens.
I might not have made it clear.. We aren't talking about an actual linear discharge here... You take the semi linear curve based around the nominal voltage.. and take the derivative of the curve... THAT will give you a linear discharge... We aren't talking about the actual discharge, we are talking about integrating the curve.. You then create a calibration and model based upon the derivative of the nominal voltage and reconstruction reporting values based upon this data... Assuming nominal voltage is hit at <90~100 (in that range) and >~10 ... Then you create a minimum voltage before total discharge (usually around 1/2 nominal) and set that as 0 point.. Then creating reporting levels at 5 (halfway) and 3 (point at which basic functions should be dumped except basic phone calls).. 0 point is set at the recovery voltage (anything below that and you can have cell damage which will lead to a decreased overall capacity)... I agree with you on the cell design and capacity but the problem is with standard Lithium polymers that are currently avalible you can't reach sufficient density to increase capacity without increasing size (and cost).. When olivine-type lithium iron phosphate becomes cheaper, we will see a capacity increase due to higher achievable densities.. There is also a newer lithium cell structure that i think samsung or someone else is developing that will increase density ~50% over standard (1.5 times standard densities) but the cost of these is to high for mass production in portable electronic terms..
Also look into the research done at Bringhamton University where they can increase olivine lithium ion cells by introducing vanadium into the cathode material..
Last edited by numus; March 26th, 2010 at 07:54 PM.
I might not have made it clear.. We aren't talking about an actual linear discharge here... You take the semi linear curve based around the nominal voltage.. and take the derivative of the curve... THAT will give you a linear discharge... We aren't talking about the actual discharge, we are talking about integrating the curve.. You then create a calibration and model based upon the derivative of the nominal voltage and reconstruction reporting values based upon this data... Assuming nominal voltage is hit at <90~100 (in that range) and >~10 ... Then you create a minimum voltage before total discharge (usually around 1/2 nominal) and set that as 0 point.. Then creating reporting levels at 5 (halfway) and 3 (point at which basic functions should be dumped except basic phone calls).. 0 point is set at the recovery voltage (anything below that and you can have cell damage which will lead to a decreased overall capacity)... I agree with you on the cell design and capacity but the problem is with standard Lithium polymers that are currently avalible you can't reach sufficient density to increase capacity without increasing size (and cost).. When olivine-type lithium iron phosphate becomes cheaper, we will see a capacity increase due to higher achievable densities.. There is also a newer lithium cell structure that i think samsung or someone else is developing that will increase density ~50% over standard (1.5 times standard densities) but the cost of these is to high for mass production in portable electronic terms..
Also look into the research done at Bringhamton University where they can increase olivine lithium ion cells by introducing vanadium into the cathode material..
You made yourself clear. I completely understood you.
Why would you think olivine LiFePO4 batteries would benfit mobile devices besides energy density? I do not have much knowledge on "olivine" but I do own a high capacity 48V 20AH LiFePO4 battery pack and the cells are very sensitive. They require a BMS to balance each individual cells. Basically, 1 faulty cell could cripple the whole pack. Of course I am working with dozens of cells and a pack used on mobile devices would be much less. Maybe even 1 cell but from my understanding, lithium poly batteries are the main choice for mobile devices because of their shape and not energy density which is a shame.
Just so you understand me, I am not trying to pick an argument. I know what I and and you obviously know what you know.
"samsung or someone else is developing that will increase density ~50% over standard (1.5 times standard densities) but the cost of these is to high for mass production"
I am very much aware of this. A Korean scientist developed a method that made the cathode material porous. This, in effect, increased the surface area of the lithium up to 4x.
LiFePO4 batteries, although good, can only discharge at about 2C safely. This may be sufficient for the mobile platform but for what I am using it for, it's not enough . I still think this chemistry is not reliable for mass marketing. A BMS takes room and it's a hassle to deal with.
I'll look into the Bringhamton University research but I doubt the increase in capacity would increase the C-rating if the chemistry is still LiFePO4. Check into the Lithium Nano Phosphate cells by A123. They can discharge at 90C!
Let me show you what discharging at 90 plus C looks like via A123 cells.
You made yourself clear. I completely understood you.
Why would you think olivine LiFePO4 batteries would benfit mobile devices besides energy density? I do not have much knowledge on "olivine" but I do own a high capacity 48V 20AH LiFePO4 battery pack and the cells are very sensitive. They require a BMS to balance each individual cells. Basically, 1 faulty cell could cripple the whole pack. Of course I am working with dozens of cells and a pack used on mobile devices would be much less. Maybe even 1 cell but from my understanding, lithium poly batteries are the main choice for mobile devices because of their shape and not energy density which is a shame.
Just so you understand me, I am not trying to pick an argument. I know what I and and you obviously know what you know.
"samsung or someone else is developing that will increase density ~50% over standard (1.5 times standard densities) but the cost of these is to high for mass production"
I am very much aware of this. A Korean scientist developed a method that made the cathode material porous. This, in effect, increased the surface area of the lithium up to 4x.
LiFePO4 batteries, although good, can only discharge at about 2C safely. This may be sufficient for the mobile platform but for what I am using it for, it's not enough . I still think this chemistry is not reliable for mass marketing. A BMS takes room and it's a hassle to deal with.
I'll look into the Bringhamton University research but I doubt the increase in capacity would increase the C-rating if the chemistry is still LiFePO4. Check into the Lithium Nano Phosphate cells by A123. They can discharge at 90C!
Let me show you what discharging at 90 plus C looks like via A123 cells.
Androidforums.com isn't for much techincal talk.. but at SDX-developers i go into depth on the code and modifications and you can get as techincal as you want.. Just an FYI before we make anyones brain's hurt from the chemistry talk.. It is good to finally have someone to bounce this stuff back and forth from...
hey, so did anyone ever narrow down whats the cause for the battery drain for a phone with cl14, stock or root doesn't really matter which (ive tried), with only 2 apps installed titanium backup and spare parts. within spare parts ive got under other usage running 100% of the time, while screens at some really low percentage, and under network usage android system 100% of the time, and under the stats, it receives a hell of alot of data vs sending, like 3mbs worth, and less then 500k up. this is all happening while the phone is asleep in my pocket, i've tried disabling gps, use wireless, set roaming to home only, turned off bg data, ive turned off that location feat. in the camera, ive got a bunch of stuff uninstalled as well.
my current fw setup is cl14 stock > speedrabbit 1.7 + max recovery 2.0.
im about to downgrade to cj05, ive never had any issues with cj05, and only improvements ive seen with cl14 is overall snappier? (like menus, sliding, ect seems faster) and ya i think thats it lol.
im sorry if this has been answered somewhere else, but ive read several posts, and tried searching several different terms, all to no avail. if anyone can help me that would be greatly appreciated. thank you - Jay.
Last edited by jdphukd; April 5th, 2010 at 10:14 PM.
Reason: forgot a word, lol
Sprint has just added its first full QWERTY Keyboard Android Phone to their lineup with the Samsung Moment. Initially rumored as the "InstinctQ", the Moment rocks an 800 MHz processor - what was the fastest processor in an Android phone a... Read More
. I still think this chemistry is not reliable for mass marketing. A BMS takes room and it's a hassle to deal with.
