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Old February 6th, 2011, 09:01 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Thumbs up LTE vs WiMax .. charges and control of data.

Sprints announcement thread...

by RiverofIce:
"Why? Why would you drool over that?

With lte, you will have a closed web system. The prinpical of lte is to allow the service provider to have 100% control of all data. In practice; You want to watch netflix, be prepared to pay extra. Want youtube, be prepared to pay extra. What to visit a website, be prepared to pay extra. The main reason wimax and lte are two different services is because lte, namely verizon and att, want to 100% control over every byte of thier services. They can not only limit what you can see, but specifically what apps you use. What to have navigation, lte can limit not only what you can download, but with lte, it can be easily blocked you from ever using the data at all. What to easy tether, lte can automatically block the internet connect the minute you hook up the machine. LTE was created to be carrier controlled and carrier formed internet. LTE is specifically created so the carrier has complete and legal control over ever byte of data.

Wimax's first rule was any device for the whole interent. Wimax is web neutral, no legal website, service, or app can be blocked when using wimax. No service is given preferences. Only control of content is the carrier can use, is to limit degradation of the service and limit illegal content. To make this clear, any program, service, or user content never never be blocked when using wimax. Wimax is truly open.

So I guess what you mean when you say you would drool over something, means you wish the carriers to have 100% control over every action you do online. "

by BlackDynamite:
"Just to clarify a few things...

1: Verizon has already said they will be changing the data as part of their new network management strategies. Among other things, they will be compressing pictures and videos, downgrading resolutions, sending mobile versions of websites, etc.

2: Metro PCS has flat out said they are charging extra for youtube.

3: The FCC has no problem with either of these things as it is totally allowed in the new net neutrality rules. Wireless carriers are pretty much allowed to do what they want under the new rules, while wired broadband is required to follow net neutrality.

4: Verizon wrote the new net neutrality rules. This little protest they are putting up is a sham. I can already see how it is going to go... Verizon puts up some fake little protest. They come to court with a weak case. The judge upholds the net neutrality rules. The goverment spins it as a victory for consumers. The general public buys it, thinking it must be good for consumers if Verizon didn't like it. Meanwhile, Verizon is filtering data left and right (funny they slipped that announcement in while the entire media was focused on Egypt). "

is this true? will it happen??

LTE charging for youtube? and better data access? limiting resolution? limiting sites you can visit?

if true...
WiMax is looking so much better.. even if at a slower speed.
but research says.. wimax has speed potential too!!!


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Old February 7th, 2011, 10:31 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Throttling, controlling, limiting, parcing, reducing. Doesn't matter which words are used, carriers shouldn't be in the business of doing anything to data that's not harmful to the network. And by harmful, I don't mean slowing it down - that's not harmful, it's a nuisance that can be addressed by the carrier network and pricing.

What it boils down to is I don't care about Wimax vs LTE so much as who's going to provide great service at payable prices.

Consumers don't know what to believe (and don't want to spend a lot of time looking it up) so they'll continue to go for what's getting the best hype, spin, and publicity.

I truly hope Sprint gets full Wimax deployment sooner rather than later. At some point that's more important than screaming fast speeds. Unless you're a serious gamer, the current Wimax, HSPA+, and LTE speeds are more than adequate. But they're not available everywhere.

The thing I care about most in these debates is when will full 4G coverage be available. No one's racing to "industry first" on that one!
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Old February 7th, 2011, 12:18 PM   #3 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan330 View Post
that is great info.. I have not read that anywhere else.
Not to be arguementive, but can anyone else confirm this LTE control feature?.
Oh I love doubters, I can prove it to you. What if I get someone else to say it too? On camera even?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjjNI3vcSrY

Is a few years old, but about 4:20.

MetroPCS LTE Plans to Charge More for VoIP & Streaming: Tech News and Analysis

Quote:
"Where this gets tricky is that users are allowed to have unlimited YouTube access and unlimited web browsing under the $40 tier. But to get broad unlimited Internet access for things like VoIPSkype, streaming video and audio services, data uploads and gaming services, users will have to move up to the $50 or $60 tier, MetroPCS’s Crowell said."
-That is forbiden on wimax. No carrier can charge limit the access of anything on wimax.

Policy control and charging for LTE - Connect-World: the leading Telecom magazine, ICT magazine, Telecom magazine, ICT and Telecom Industry Press Releases and Blog.

Read through the marketing speak. I love this part.
Quote:
"In the utility sector, to encourage consumers and businesses to increase usage during off-peak hours when rates are lower and decrease usage during peak hours, utilities are deploying smart meters to help manage electricity consumption. Operators will need to adopt a similar approach introducing controls to manage the demand for data during peak hours. This is where such EPC control components as the Home Subscriber Server (HSS), Policy Controller (PCRF), and inter-working functions (3GPP AAA) come into play."
What to browse the interent during peak hours, you will have to pay extra!!! Wimax forbids this.

But I have ran you around the bush enough, lets just get to it.

Powered by Google Docs

Page 9 and I quote

Quote:
"Intelligent Traffic management can form the basis for innovative new services that allow carriers to differentiate their offerings or garner additional revenue through offering different bandwidth levels to premium users -- delivering a service that prioritizes gaming, VoIP and video
conferencing traffic, for example. Similarly, intelligent traffic management can be used for
gathering market intelligence to create targeted mobile advertising. The possibilities are
boundless, and this technology provides carriers with a new set of business tools to increase
average revenue per user (ARPU). Increased real-time activity during times of peak congestion
will create opportunities for carriers to sell QoS differentiated services."
-Forbidden by wimax.

Look at the chart, they specifically point out youtube, media, and facebook.

But you know, you where not using the whole internet anyway, so why not drool over lte.
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Old February 7th, 2011, 12:51 PM   #4 (permalink)
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wow.. that is scary.. the picture I see painted from these articles.

I am soo.. happy to hear that WiMax is what sprint has.

but what if.. sprint goes lte too?? leaves WiMax for Backbone support as what others have said.
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Old February 8th, 2011, 06:46 AM   #5 (permalink)
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This is depressing. I don't wanna be stuck with Sprint cause they're the only ones with Wimax and I don't wanna be on LTE because of all that BS I just read.

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Old February 8th, 2011, 10:57 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Scary stuff. People want this so they can access the very applications that they will be forced to pay extra for. So they are paying twice. And people are angry about Sprint? No one wants to see their bills go up, granted, but this is a whole lot worse IMHO.
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Old February 8th, 2011, 12:07 PM   #7 (permalink)
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If all of this actually happens, my next phone may be "dumb" - calls and (maybe) text only. Neutral, non-tiered, internet access is still available at home.
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Old February 8th, 2011, 12:59 PM   #8 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadlessPonch View Post
If all of this actually happens, my next phone may be "dumb" - calls and (maybe) text only. Neutral, non-tiered, internet access is still available at home.
Dumb phones are going to go away. You will be stuck with smart phone in the near future. Finding a dumb phone in 3 years will be like finding a type writer today.
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Old February 8th, 2011, 01:20 PM   #9 (permalink)
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The WiMax standard is an IEEE standard, brought to you by the same (neutral) standards body that controls specs like those for WiFi and USB.

The LTE standard is a 3GPP standard. 3GPP is a telecom industry funded organization, and it was specifically designed with the sorts of policy control functions network operators foresaw as tools they could use, in part, to do things like differentiate between data type for control and monetization purposes that are contemplated in this post.

More info on this:

LTE Blog: How Heavily Will Policy Control Feature in the Operators' LTE Strategy?

Quote:
There have been a flurry of telecoms software companies offering (to use the 3GPP terminology) Policy and Charging Rules Function (PCRF) which is a central point for managing network infrastructure costs and enabling subscribers to enjoy a wide variety of services and a high quality experience. The Policy Controller can also be deployed in conjunction with Deep Packet Inspection (DPI) solutions.


For 'enabling subscribers to enjoy a wide variety of services and a high quality experience,' substitute 'enabling network operators to discriminate between high- and low-value traffic types, and adjust tariffs accordingly.'

The Pipe Camiant Scores LTE Policy Management Coup at Verizon

Quote:
Policy management is increasingly critical as mobile operators struggle to handle the explosion of mobile data engendered requirements of running 4G networks and strive to create, implement, and control new service tiers enabled by next-generation mobile broadband.)[emphasis added]


Scary stuff.


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Old February 8th, 2011, 01:22 PM   #10 (permalink)
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There's no turning back now.
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Old February 8th, 2011, 02:14 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverOfIce View Post
Dumb phones are going to go away. You will be stuck with smart phone in the near future. Finding a dumb phone in 3 years will be like finding a type writer today.
There will always be Jitterbug phones.
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Old February 8th, 2011, 02:14 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverOfIce View Post
Dumb phones are going to go away. You will be stuck with smart phone in the near future. Finding a dumb phone in 3 years will be like finding a type writer today.
I've got a typewriter in my closet. No phones, though.
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Old February 9th, 2011, 08:02 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Another bad thing I read about LTE is that it is assigned a private IP address so you can not access it from the outside. Not as big of a problem on phones as it is on data cards, but it will not allow you to access a slingbox or security cameras or things like that from the public side of the internet.
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Old February 10th, 2011, 01:37 AM   #14 (permalink)
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The differences are too small between LTE and Wimax at this time. I have Clear 4G in my home. I use about 180gig a month in bandwidth, and my speeds are typically in this range.



It's been reliable enough to replace Comcast in my home.

I'll be adding a Sprint 4G phone sometime this year after I see what is in line to replace the Evo.
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Old February 10th, 2011, 05:45 AM   #15 (permalink)
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^^
That kicks my Cable internets ass
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Old February 10th, 2011, 07:20 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Here is a test I ran just now to show I am not selecting only good tests. From my prospective, I have little incentive to deal with Verizon's capping policies and prices for LTE.

Mind you, my speed is on a live network with actual Wimax devices eating bandwidth. LTE's "blazing" speed is on a basically dead network with no users. Let's see how things change after you can actually buy an LTE device.



Sometimes I burst higher, but not often

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Old February 10th, 2011, 08:16 AM   #17 (permalink)
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^^^ i read in other threads here... that verizon's 3G and 4G share the same bandwidith.... or something like that.

so that as 3G gets more busy.. 4G will feel some of the traffic too. today iphone 4 go on sale on V. so....
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Old February 10th, 2011, 09:23 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan330 View Post
^^^ i read in other threads here... that verizon's 3G and 4G share the same bandwidith.... or something like that.

so that as 3G gets more busy.. 4G will feel some of the traffic too. today iphone 4 go on sale on V. so....
I think both VZW and ATT LTE is in the 700Mhz spectrum. LTE (and Wimax) will still need 3G and other ways to backhaul data from towers. VZW has done a better job investing in backhaul, which is why their coverage is faster/better than ATT in many areas. ATT is behind, instead choosing to focus on adding HSPA+ as an interim step before going to LTE. My guess is that ATT did this because they simply weren't ready to move on LTE and HSPA+ at least offers enough speed for them not to be totally left behind. Besides, even HSPA+ is now being called "4G" (TMo started it). ATT would likely have been really crippled had they not been able to get additional LTE spectrum by purchasing FloTV from Qualcomm. As we all know, FloTV is being shut down because it was never a big seller and doesn't have spectrum to cover continuous TV streaming and data required by ATT services.

As to increased traffic issues at VZW due to iPhone, we'll see. There's no reason to believe VZW won't have accounted for the influx of iPhans. VZW has been working to expand 3G traffic handling for years knowing that the golden egg was getting iPhone. Though I think VZW's a bit expensive, they are that way so they can do things like get the iPhone off exclusive. I don't think any other carrier could have put that much pressure on AAPL.

I believe the issue with LTE speed won't be the LTE towers so much as the backhaul strength. That's what slowed 3G, and it can slow 4G as well. I'm curious whether the issue could be worse with 4G though since the data is moving in much higher volume now.

As to Sprint with Wimax, I still think it's the better technology in the long run since it can easily handle uncompressed data exchanges. I also like that it's not a technology developed out of wireless carrier frustration.
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Old February 11th, 2011, 11:06 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
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As to Sprint with Wimax, I still think it's the better technology in the long run since it can easily handle uncompressed data exchanges. I also like that it's not a technology developed out of wireless carrier frustration.
[OT]
Agree that WiMax is a better tech from the user's perspective, because LTE is a 3GPP spec that was designed by the telecoms industry with their interests in mind (e.g., policy control, etc.) whereas WiMax is a 'purer' IEEE spec (like WiFi).

But it is sadly looking like a Betamax/VHS situation, where the best technology ends up losing out. People don't understand that the industry's intention is to use the next gen networks to return us back to the walled garden/AOL days, and that they are succeeding in their intentions.

I think if more people understood this, people might look at Sprint a lot differently. And I think that Sprint/Clear could perhaps incorporate this fact into their marketing, and that if they did it might make at least a bit of a difference, but that they are afraid to do so.

It's sad.

[/OT]
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Old February 11th, 2011, 03:54 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I don't want everyone migrating to Sprint. I just want Sprint to do well enough to keep at it alone.

Remember - Betamax died because Sony didn't let other makers in. They changed that with Blu-ray and killed HD-DVD.

What Sprint doesn't have is a go-to manufacturer. The window with HTC is closed even though Evo was a game-changer.
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Old February 11th, 2011, 07:36 PM   #21 (permalink)
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While this was the intent of wimax, the real world implemntation will be just like lte
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Old February 11th, 2011, 08:30 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
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While this was the intent of wimax, the real world implemntation will be just like lte
They legally can't.
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Old February 11th, 2011, 09:05 PM   #23 (permalink)
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While this was the intent of wimax, the real world implemntation will be just like lte

more info.. on this ... articles?
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Old December 1st, 2011, 04:17 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Question WiMax vs LTE

In simple terms, what's the difference? And since our phones are WiMax based, once Sprint goes LTE, does that mean that the 4G service in our EV3 phones will stop working?
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Old December 1st, 2011, 05:49 PM   #25 (permalink)
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As long as they keep Wimax active then we'll be able to use it. Supposedly that will be through 2012. The good news is that the Network Vision is supposed to improve 3G service as well so our phones should be good until we are ready to upgrade. I mean, the iPhone only gets 3G anyway so we should be in at least as good of shape as the iPhone users are I happen to be in an area with excellent Wimax coverage so I am really hoping that LTE will be as good.
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Old December 1st, 2011, 06:32 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Actually I just read today that Wimax will be in place until 2015.
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Old December 1st, 2011, 06:48 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Actually I just read today that Wimax will be in place until 2015.
Well that's good to know! The last I'd read was that it was guaranteed through 2012, possibly 2013.
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Old December 1st, 2011, 07:44 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Read this might shed some light, 4G technologies: WiMAX and LTE
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