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Old December 7th, 2012, 01:52 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Hacking Subforum Request

Hi all, I was just wondering if would be possible to add a Hacking subforum under the Development forum? I've posted a couple guides in the LG Motion subforms, but most of the stuff that I do is hacking. Taking something pre-existing and modifying it for a different or better purpose. Things like editing /data files, doing scripts and commands in the terminal. Everything completely unrelated to "developing an app". Unfortunately, all the subforums currently are focused around "developing an app".

The xda forums seem to be lively with this type of stuff, but I'd rather they weren't the only exclusive ones. I'm more interested in dissecting an app than developing one. Here is a Guide that I made in the LG Motion 4G subforum that I think would be a much better fit with a general Hacking subforum: [GUIDE] Installing Bash and Nano on Android

I also have a Guide in the works for launching scripts at device boot. I imagine it too would go better in such a forum.

I'm not an app developer. I'm a hacker of the entire Android operating system. This is my Hacking subforum request.

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Old December 7th, 2012, 04:33 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I liked your bash thread, I hack stuff like that on mine.

Hmmmm.... interesting. I think we'll get some kickback on the name though...
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Old December 8th, 2012, 01:15 PM   #3 (permalink)
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The term 'hack' has got a bad rap. Not opposed to it. Perhaps modding or something to that effect.

Perhaps iron out those details, and see if there is any interest by posting in suggestion box?
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Old December 8th, 2012, 07:31 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I like this idea, too!

Lots of Android-generic things that could be put into such a forum.

Perhaps call it "white hat hacking"?

Also, XDA commonly uses "hacking" in their forum structure: http://forum.xda-developers.com/

Thanks!
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Old December 10th, 2012, 04:44 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I'm really happy to hear you liked the Guide on installing Bash and everyones support on this request.

The media and those who aren't on the inside often think of "hacking" as a bad thing. But as hackers, we who we are, and we like the term hacker. If we see that word "Hacking", we know we are in the right place. The place that isn't afraid to change things around, implement tools in ways never imagined, and get down dirty in the guts of the operating system.

As stated in the OP, I've had a Guide in the works, and now it's ready to be written. It allows the user to run scripts at system boot time (similar to a guide written at xda, but easier and uninstallable).

I'm just waiting to hopefully hear a positive result on this decision.
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Old December 10th, 2012, 05:19 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sepero View Post
I'm really happy to hear you liked the Guide on installing Bash and everyones support on this request.

The media and those who aren't on the inside often think of "hacking" as a bad thing. But as hackers, we who we are, and we like the term hacker. If we see that word "Hacking", we know we are in the right place. The place that isn't afraid to change things around, implement tools in ways never imagined, and get down dirty in the guts of the operating system.

As stated in the OP, I've had a Guide in the works, and now it's ready to be written. It allows the user to run scripts at system boot time (similar to a guide written at xda, but easier and uninstallable).

I'm just waiting to hopefully hear a positive result on this decision.
I too like it and would visit it often but it's all up to the Boss.

BC
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Old December 10th, 2012, 05:43 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Let me put some alternatives together and move this to the suggestion box later today.

I liked your script for swapping the sd cards, the way things were meant to be, we have something similar for the Evo 4G LTE.

I think with a few simple probes, that can be modified to work with any phone (mine uses ext_sd as an example of a difference).

Here's my bash, I kept meaning to add terminfo to it lol - [HOW-TO] Get bash in Terminal Emulator
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Old December 10th, 2012, 10:31 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sepero View Post

As stated in the OP, I've had a Guide in the works, and now it's ready to be written. It allows the user to run scripts at system boot time (similar to a guide written at xda, but easier and uninstallable).
What if you unbricked it?

I also like the idea of a hacking/modding subforum
But, not everything works with all phones. Some things could work on one phone and brick another.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 02:45 PM   #9 (permalink)
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What about other names, as Phases advises?

How about - Android System User Mods?

Thoughts?

PS - I think we'll have to warn that not all mods are appropriate to all phones and that users may need to proceed with risk. I also think we'll need guidelines for posting set up so we can separate the good from the not-so-good.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 03:22 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EarlyMon View Post
What about other names, as Phases advises?

How about - Android System User Mods?

Thoughts?

PS - I think we'll have to warn that not all mods are appropriate to all phones and that users may need to proceed with risk. I also think we'll need guidelines for posting set up so we can separate the good from the not-so-good.
I like that name, EM!

We could ask thread makers to add "[xyz]" type prefix tags to their thread titles or ask them to always start off the OP with something like:

Quote:
works on: all HTC devices except HTC Droid Eris
root required: no
Android version: 2.3 and higher
...etc. and similar to the various questions you get asked when you create a thread over at rootzwiki (except I'm guessing they tag/keep this metadata to allow you to easily search various things).

FYI, here are some of the tags that rootz uses:
Quote:
Source:
Mod Type: Application
Difficulty: Very Easy
Mod Status: Beta
Mod Base:
Carrier:
Requires Root: No
Apply In: Other (See Description)
Optional: Optional:
Android Version:
Just an idea...thanks!
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Old December 11th, 2012, 03:37 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Go for it
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Old December 12th, 2012, 03:01 AM   #12 (permalink)
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If I may, I would really like to support the subforum being called "Hacking" (or at minimum have the word "hacking" in it). We would only be offending people completely ignorant to the field, but that's sort of inevitable. This forums users tend to be a little more informed than the average person, and a sticky could be made stating what hacking is, and what kind of hacking is allowed. If the name "hacking" still posed a problem, it could always be changed in the future.

@EarlyMon & sammyz
"warn that not all mods are appropriate to all phones"
Excellent point for sure. It could have a good fit in the description of the subforum (and possibly in a sticky too).

@scary alien
Great idea about having a prefix on the titles. (I actually support all threads having a prefix). And I think the idea of tagging/metadata is great too. Perhaps something like that could eventually be software implemented.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 04:59 AM   #13 (permalink)
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It depends. Most of what we do is not hacking so I don't think we should use the term. Not because it offends anyone or gives the wrong impression.... Or even that I dislike the word...

Simply because I do not actually agree that is what we are talking about; at least - not in full.

In android terms, hacking would be grabbing your new phone that had just come out and seeking exploits to the Bootloader / Security Flag / System protection with a view to allow the device to be rooted and flashed. That is hacking

Anything else we're talking about, scripts, modifiying frameworks, javas, .db files etc is not hacking. Its simply customising or modifying. This is why we probably shouldn't use the word hacking because by definition, thats not what we want represented in this forum.

However I agree this forum needs to exist.
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Old December 13th, 2012, 06:33 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Just.. entertain me here. What would be the difference between what goes on in this forum, and the phone ATR forums?
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Old December 13th, 2012, 06:44 AM   #15 (permalink)
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It seems like it would be more of a Rom/kernel development 101.

That could easily go in individual atr subforums, but I'm sure there are generalized guides that can apply to many devices for people looking to get into that side of development rather than apps.

I see it as boiling down to the same reason we only have one s3 main forum(which I support)-why have 5 threads discussing the same thing in multiple subforums.
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Old December 13th, 2012, 09:20 AM   #16 (permalink)
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I kind of see it like a central repository for tips/tricks/hacks that might be applicable across more than one device (no specific ATR "home").

I'm certain there are already islands of great information squirreled-away in the various ATR sub-forums that would greatly benefit others (if only they knew about them).
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Old December 13th, 2012, 10:30 AM   #17 (permalink)
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^this especially

We have duplicates of bash and text editor installations, sd card partitioning tricks, /data partioning tricks, sd card mounting tricks, adb tricks for full backups of your phone to your pc, and a number of threads on script installers for things like the V6 SuperCharger, just to name a few that can be safely applied to either all phones or the majority of them.

I could easily name several more.

The advantages of a dedicated forum -
  • Almost none of these efforts get refined from collaboration. A common area could solve that.
  • Those of us doing this are scattered into various ATRs for phones we own. Mods are squirreled away.
  • Regular users miss out because we're such a minority working out these things.
  • Many that could benefit from these efforts never hear of them or may never consider that some things are not really set in stone.

It will take time and effort to maintain by users and there's no telling if it would take off or not.

Because this would be a results-oriented area for all users, not just rooters, I would see it as its own forum in the Android Discussion area, and therefore allow for future subforums if it does take off.
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Old December 13th, 2012, 11:13 AM   #18 (permalink)
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@SUroot
This makes things more clear, as it appears that we just have a difference of definitions for hacking.
Quote:
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In android terms, hacking would be grabbing your new phone that had just come out and seeking exploits to the Bootloader / Security Flag / System protection with a view to allow the device to be rooted and flashed. That is hacking
I agree with that. I would say that is one subset of hacking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SUroot View Post
Anything else we're talking about, scripts, modifiying frameworks, javas, .db files etc is not hacking.
I suppose this is where we differ, because I would say that when I do these things, I am hacking too.

I tend to use a broad definition of hacking, similar to that defined by the free software foundation.


There are definitely lots of different categories of hacking, but perhaps you and others are right. To align with the most common usage, maybe something like "Modding" is better.

Perhaps a "Modding" and "Hacking" subforum? We don't disallow bootloader, rooting, and flashing roms here, right? If we are making a definitional division, then that would appear to create potential for 2 new subforums.

What is the common word usage among other forums?
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Old December 13th, 2012, 11:36 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Xda calls it hacking for some things but developing is a better word for what we are describing here. People who make the mods/roms/kernels are developers.

I'd leave hacking to the guys who are the ones actually trying to figure out getting around bootloader security or the ones who got 4g working on the nexus 4

Just my 2 cents
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Old December 13th, 2012, 11:58 AM   #20 (permalink)
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My first boss, who started programming in the 50s, would bring me things that others couldn't solve and tell me that he needed a hacker to fix it. Most people at work hated my hacker nature but couldn't argue with results. I once replaced a sort routine for a very large data set that took over an hour on a minicomputer with a Sieve of Eratosthenes that ran in seconds.

What I dislike about the term is that anymore, most calling themselves hackers are not hackers at all. It's they who've given our skills a bad rep.

Anyway, this is our deal, so I wouldn't mind if we came up with our own name if outside terms can't be found.

Android Fixes - Because yes, it's not really done

Android Enhancements -

Android DIY Club - I kinda like this one you join just by lurking!

Android User Mods -

... others??
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Old December 13th, 2012, 12:11 PM   #21 (permalink)
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PS - for the record, I would say that a hacker is someone lacking the belief that something can't be done. Most of the time we're halfway to solution while being told that what we're attempting is impossible. If you tell me that something is profitable or really needed, I'll clear a slot on my calendar and see when I can work on it. If you tell me it's unsolvable or too difficult, I'll start working on it immediately, because I either won't believe you or because I'm desperate for something to break the boredom.
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Old December 13th, 2012, 12:32 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phases View Post
Just.. entertain me here. What would be the difference between what goes on in this forum, and the phone ATR forums?
An init.d script that alters oom values can be valid against any rom, any devie with root and init.d support. Why have 100 duplicate threads or a missing thread if someone hasn't created it for that atr?!
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Old December 13th, 2012, 12:42 PM   #23 (permalink)
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People like Earlymon have a first hand grasp of the word hacker because of field experience. No matter the definition, I think the best choice over all would be to select a name similar to other forums. We wouldn't want to alienate new comers by using terms that no other forum uses.

If creating a new forum outside of App Development, then I like "Android User Mods", but just my opinion that android and user seem a redundant.

Perhaps "System Modding"

Or "System Mods and Hacks"

vote for something
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Old December 13th, 2012, 12:47 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I'd be ok with system mods and hacks... because as I said, some of it may be hacking.
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Old December 13th, 2012, 12:51 PM   #25 (permalink)
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...with maybe a root only caveat
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Old December 13th, 2012, 01:25 PM   #26 (permalink)
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...with maybe a root only caveat
Respectfully disagree.

People don't know that they can make and share user-installable Widgetsoids zip packages for their sd cards - no root required.

Backup/restore tricks using adb, simple to us rooters, no root required (and just use our mini-SDK, no need for a big footprint SDK to get that done).

That thing we've done so often that we forget it's like science to newcomers - where to put your own custom ringtones on your sd card - no root required.

[How-to] use system monitors like GSAM Battery Monitor to after apps holding wakelocks, or many similar others - no root required.

That's 4 off the top of my head, no doubt there are many others.

PS - if the idea of putting it under Android Discussion succeeds, then all other forums there begin with "Android" - Android Lounge, Android Themes, Android Media - so I think we want the shortest, catchiest name if we're to succeed there - maybe.

Quote:
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An init.d script that alters oom values can be valid against any rom, any devie with root and init.d support. Why have 100 duplicate threads or a missing thread if someone hasn't created it for that atr?!
Many like the V6 SuperCharger for that - and every day, people ask the same three questions across the forums - how do I install it, what do these options mean, and why do I need to change services.jar for ICS?
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Old December 13th, 2012, 01:49 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EarlyMon View Post
Respectfully disagree.

People don't know that they can make and share user-installable Widgetsoids zip packages for their sd cards - no root required.

Backup/restore tricks using adb, simple to us rooters, no root required (and just use our mini-SDK, no need for a big footprint SDK to get that done).

That thing we've done so often that we forget it's like science to newcomers - where to put your own custom ringtones on your sd card - no root required.

[How-to] use system monitors like GSAM Battery Monitor to after apps holding wakelocks, or many similar others - no root required.

That's 4 off the top of my head, no doubt there are many others.

I think we're talking at cross purposes. The forum I'm endorsing would not include 1, 3 or 4. 2, actually I've only had 3 android devices but you need su in adb to access /data or /system on those devices.

So yeah if you're disagreeing because you have a better understanding of what is proposed, that's fine because actually I'm not interested anyway and withdraw my suggestion.

The forum I thought I was endorsing would need a descriptive name, not a catchy one. I was thinking "system mods, scripts and hacks (root only)" rather than "basic stuff for everyone".

If we're suggesting the latter, I'll start a new thread suggesting the former because I endorse that
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Old December 13th, 2012, 02:24 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I think we're talking at cross purposes. The forum I'm endorsing would not include 1, 3 or 4. 2, actually I've only had 3 android devices but you need su in adb to access /data or /system on those devices.
adb pull /mnt/sdcard backup-dir

was what I had in mind when I mentioned that.

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So yeah if you're disagreeing because you have a better understanding of what is proposed, that's fine because actually I'm not interested anyway and withdraw my suggestion.

The forum I thought I was endorsing would need a descriptive name, not a catchy one. I was thinking "system mods, scripts and hacks (root only)" rather than "basic stuff for everyone".

If we're suggesting the latter, I'll start a new thread suggesting the former because I endorse that
Well, this is why I'm suggesting a top-level forum with sub-forums - because there are several special interests that need serving, that I was hoping could fit under the same umbrella.

System mods, scripts and hacks (root only) - a subforum

User mods and PC scripts (no root required) - a subforum

Sorry if I was unclear on that.

My only disagreement was that we had one community only to serve on this.

And the only point of a catchy name is draw interest to get to the descriptive names - and plus - it was just a suggestion.
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Old December 13th, 2012, 02:51 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Ok gotcha. I'll subscribe to that
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Old December 13th, 2012, 02:57 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I think having it for a top level forum would be great. SUroot, you're absolutely right in what you're saying, and I think everything you've described could go perfectly in a subforum.

I like EarlyMon's idea here, because as we've discussed, modding/hacking/etc can encompass a very large area of topics. And subforums could be more Specialized (nonroot? root? adb? scripts? file/hex-editing? memory editing? roms? more?).

For example, without root a person could write:
  • A script that renames all of a users mp3 files as "Artist - Song.mp3"
  • Or a script for syncing Pictures on the sdcard with an online account
  • Or a guide on installing Python on Android
All of those without any root permissions. The resulting subforums would depend on what is popular, and what is possible.


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Old December 13th, 2012, 11:13 PM   #31 (permalink)
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@Rxpert83 & scary alien
Good points about avoiding having the same thing in multiple ATR forums. Things can be consolidated into a single forum. Someone might read a Guide made for ICS devices, and find out it works on their JB device also, but the person may have never read it if not for having a general forum.

There are islands of great information in the ATR sub-forums, and I'm sure there are a few gems in the non-root forums too. Certainly the majority of things would be root related, but there are still a lot lot of things that can be done without root too. Things I can't even imagine. Even running Bash and Nano in a terminal could be done without root access.

Obviously many hidden gems of ATR will never be uncovered, but having this new forum should help prevent good things from being covered up in the future. All great positive stuff here.


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Old December 15th, 2012, 07:23 PM   #32 (permalink)
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I like that name.

BTW, the Lounge rooting club thread could go nicely into the proposed subforum. It's not a watering hole thread, it's on topic for rooters.

They are already looking to congregate.
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Old December 16th, 2012, 04:07 PM   #33 (permalink)
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I have a name if its not to late

Creative Engineering Forum
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Old December 16th, 2012, 05:25 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Not enough cow bell, too much engineering.

Android Creative Mods has a nice ring to it though.
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Old December 17th, 2012, 01:29 AM   #35 (permalink)
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I'd still like to see "scripts" represented
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Old December 17th, 2012, 07:20 AM   #36 (permalink)
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I'd still like to see "scripts" represented
Maybe through the prefix system or thread title prefixes could be used for this?
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Old December 17th, 2012, 10:43 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Ooh maybe.

I just meant in the subforum name. I like "Android System mods, scripts and hacks" as a name...

But prefixes would be good. Not sure where to draw the line at system mods though....

[Framework]?
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Old December 21st, 2012, 12:07 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Ok, the Guide that I spoke of for boot scripts has been created. I didn't want to delay it any longer. It currently resides in the ATR for LG Motion 4G. Please transfer it over whenever a general hacking subforum for root users is ready.

http://androidforums.com/motion-4g-all-things-root/665221-boot_buddy-run-boot-scripts-root-users.html#post5343080
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Old December 23rd, 2012, 11:00 PM   #39 (permalink)
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I think an "Advanced Android User Area" would be great! A repository where people can talk about the back end of the android system. Yeah, I mean, I can run a custom recovery on my phone and install a rom, but I would love to dive deeper into things, like how to get ahold of the binaries, how to modify them, how to code, etc.

I am for the idea!
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Old December 23rd, 2012, 11:06 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Ok, the Guide that I spoke of for boot scripts has been created. I didn't want to delay it any longer. It currently resides in the ATR for LG Motion 4G. Please transfer it over whenever a general hacking subforum for root users is ready.

http://androidforums.com/motion-4g-all-things-root/665221-boot_buddy-run-boot-scripts-root-users.html#post5343080
Is this to be copied over or moved?
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Old December 23rd, 2012, 11:27 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Is this to be copied over or moved?
When the time is ready, I recommend it to be moved. It was created with the intention of being for generally any phone.
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Old December 24th, 2012, 09:21 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Don't forget, said forum or subforum can have its own subforums or prefix sets to help with all this.
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Old December 28th, 2012, 09:59 AM   #43 (permalink)
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I really like this idea, I do think some stickies would need to be made with a few disclaimers, as i saw mentioned above, about warning users about using these hacks, scripts, mods, etc on their devices.

I definitely like the idea of 2 subforums, one consisting of mods for rooted users and one for mods for unrooted users.

Are we still debating on putting this under Android Development or making an entirely new forum from it?

Because if anything I would suggest to put it under that then creating two separate sub forums beneath it, making the topics what i stated earlier in my post.

Prefixes would also be a good idea, maybe also implementing, what i saw earlier, being a template that the OP fills out once posting his/her script or mod, etc....something like what was mentioned about which device(s) it will work on and/or necessary version of Android.
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Old January 21st, 2013, 01:25 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Where did we go with this?
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Old January 21st, 2013, 02:42 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Where did we go with this?
We need to sort a name acceptable to everyone.
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Old January 22nd, 2013, 01:37 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Ok, my suggestion is:

"Android System mods, scripts and hacks"

Lets get moving people
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Old January 22nd, 2013, 01:59 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Gosh, I was thinking, "I don't remember typing that?". Then I see SURoot and I share the same user icon
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Old January 22nd, 2013, 11:04 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Gosh, I was thinking, "I don't remember typing that?". Then I see SURoot and I share the same user icon
Yep. I have the same problem. Had this avatar for over a year so its well conditioned in to my thread-review behaviour now
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Old January 22nd, 2013, 11:58 AM   #49 (permalink)
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I want my forum dagnabit
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Old February 26th, 2013, 12:56 AM   #50 (permalink)
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We got a food subforum.
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