4430 or 4460? Update 2: Does NOT have a 4460

[rushmore]

Update 2:

Motorola are deceptive twits (IMO, of course).

First, they are not the same chips and both manage heat differently for the CPU and GPU to account for higher clocks. An overclocked 4430 will not be as efficient and run hotter than a 4460 clocked at 1.2ghz. The 4460 is designed to run stable at 1.5ghz.

Already posted similar point in the Nexus forum, but more relative here of course. I have the Droid 3 and it gets hot when running at 1ghz and the battery takes a hit if the speed is sustained (Flash video, 3D games, emulators, higher def video are examples).

If the Razr has a 4430 overclocked, it is VERY deceptive and the CEO is seems to be lying (or naive) that the device is going to last "all day" if actually using the device and features.

If just using it as a phone, sure, but NOT with LTE, qHD 4.3" and an overclocked 4430. I will avoid the Razr if a 4430, especially since a fixed battery. Seems a lock up and crash happy design IMO if a 4430. GPU is also 25% slower.

Added:

They are probably using the metal frame for heat dissipation and the fiber layer on the back is basically an oven mitt

If a 4430, the stock is 1ghz so a "1.2" ghz chipset is deceptive.

If a 4460, nevermind- nothing left to see here.

 

[pm1066]

I am seriously leaning to the Razr, but this issue needs to resolved. I guess there will be some serious handwringing until this is fully vetted.

 

[_Aardvark]

Seems a lock up and crash happy design IMO if a 4430.

That seems like an unfair statement.

Edit: I don't think it's fair to call it unstable until we have one in our hands.

 

[rushmore]

That is why I said "Seems". My guess is they are using the metal frame for the heat and the Kevlar is there to reduce the feeling of heat when holding the device.

Still, the issue is if it is a 4430, it is really not a 1.2ghz chip, but a 1ghz overclocked. The 4460 would have been the better option, but Moto saves money (not a bad thing for them, but could be bad for the consumer).

My Droid 3 would probably fail if 20% higher clock, so curious on the heat solution used and the log term stability of the device and impact on the fixed battery. Heat is a battery's number one enemy for life.

 

[pm1066]

That is why I said "Seems". My guess is they are using the metal frame for the heat and the Kevlar is there to reduce the feeling of heat when holding the device.

Only problem with that is the heat would have to go somewhere. If the entire back of the device is essentially an oven mitt, then some other part of the frame/exterior would have to take the heat load (path of least resistance), which would result in localized hot spots and a terrible user experience.

Personally, I'm going with liquid cooled.

 

[_Aardvark]

Personally, I'm going with liquid cooled.

That's what the splash guard is for!

 

[rushmore]

Not long to see how the Razr pans out. Reviews will probably love it, but users after two weeks will be the real test. I say two weeks, since the "New toy pixie dust" is still blinding people's objective thought during the first week


Added:

Unless a sudden issue, seems the Razr might be out on Nov 3rd. Still surprised thsi forum has such low posts and the Nexus is so big. Verzon has the Razr, but no word yet on the Nexus and VZW usually picks the lower option from Samsung. In this case the Nexus may be the 16gb version, which means about 10gb for apps and media (not much).

 

[Sandroidfan]

Droid RAZR Specs Confirmed: High-Res Display, Speedy Processor

Motorola announces the DROID RAZR, slimmest smartphone yet - GSMArena.com news

It looks like 4430 in Razr. But Moto site doesn't seem to confirm what type processor is in Razr. maybe we need to wait until some reviewer tears it down?

 

[rushmore]

Yep.

 

[Kamil92]

Phonearena suggest that it's OMAP 4460:
Why Google went with Texas Instruments silicon for the Galaxy Nexus Android ICS poster child

 

[pm1066]

Droid RAZR Specs Confirmed: High-Res Display, Speedy Processor

Motorola announces the DROID RAZR, slimmest smartphone yet - GSMArena.com news

It looks like 4430 in Razr. But Moto site doesn't seem to confirm what type processor is in Razr. maybe we need to wait until some reviewer tears it down?

The first article was dated 3 October, the second regurgitated the first, neither hinted at sources. I suggest a grain of salt...

 

[milkshed27]

Phonearena suggest that it's OMAP 4460:
Why Google went with Texas Instruments silicon for the Galaxy Nexus Android ICS poster child

Forgive me but I just see that it says OMAP4 but it doesn't specify 4430 or 4460.

 

[MasterXan]

this is pretty annoying

i expected Sanjay to clarify this rather than just say "1.2 dual-core processor."

Phonearena and Anandtech are saying it's 4460, GSM Arena and Pocketnow are saying it's 4430.

 

[rushmore]

I suggest they are wording it as they are by design. Samsung specifies the 4460 for Nexus.

I guess that is the price for that Kevlar

Hope I am joking and Moto is not skimping.

 

[rushmore]

Apparently the Razr does have the 4460, so makes this device VERY attractive. Just need to find out what VZW repair policy will be, due to the fixed battery. Normal practice is to swap the battery out.

http://www.droid-life.com/2011/10/1...with-full-specs-omap4460-processor-confirmed/

 

[Medion]

As I tried to explain to you in private, there are no engineered thermal differences between the 4430 and the 4460. This is simply a case of speed binning. They are the same chip off the same wafer. And, as we've seen before, a chip's rating can increase as more mid-range binned parts get stockpiled. We saw the same thing last year. The 3630 was originally rated UP TO 1ghz, but then was clocked at 1.2ghz in the Droid 2 Global. The Toshiba AT200 is a device confirmed as having an OMAP4430 @ 1.2ghz.

For those who have no clue what I'm rambling about, here is how speed binning works. Processors come off on wafers. Please take a look at the poor image I put together (attached). The closer you are to the center of the wafer, the closer the chip is to being "perfect." As you get towards the outside, more defects form. Most binned chips end up becoming two or three products. Motorola chose to do two named products with their wafer, the 4430/4460 (4470 is a completely different design).

In this case, let's say that green is the 4460, and yellow/red are the 4430. Anything that's red can run stable at or above 1ghz. Anything yellow is 1.2ghz or higher. Green is 1.5ghz or higher. Well, to meet initial demand, Moto sells the red/yellow chips as 4430, but keeps all the green chips to stockpile for an eventual 4460 release. Eventually, supply meets demand, so Moto can start binning the red and yellow separately into two products, the 4430 @ 1ghz, and the slightly more expensive (and thus, profitable) 4430 @ 1.2ghz. The reason why this occurs is due to the inherent thermal properties. The red chips can reach 1.0-1.1ghz, and be at roughly the same temperature as the yellow chips when clocked 1.2-1.3ghz.

Anyway, this is how speed binning works. If you're board and want to know more, Google the term. Other common defects of edge chips would be defective cores in a multi-core design. This is why you'll see companies like AMD offer 4-core and 3-core versions of the same chip. It allows them to still make money off the "defective" chips, maximizing their revenue off each wafer, keeping overall costs down. Makes more sense than just discarding the defective chips, which are the majority when binned in this manner.

Edit: I see that you posted a Motorola source claiming that the Razr uses the 4460. This goes against Moto's previous announcement, so let's see what the first tear-down reveals.

 

[rushmore]

As I tried to explain to you in private, there are no engineered thermal differences between the 4430 and the 4460. This is simply a case of speed binning. They are the same chip off the same wafer. And, as we've seen before, a chip's rating can increase as more mid-range binned parts get stockpiled. We saw the same thing last year. The 3630 was originally rated UP TO 1ghz, but then was clocked at 1.2ghz in the Droid 2 Global. The Droid Razr is now the second device to be confirmed as having a 4430 @ 1.2ghz, the other being the Toshiba AT200.

For those who have no clue what I'm rambling about, here is how speed binning works. Processors come off on wafers. Please take a look at the poor image I put together (attached). The closer you are to the center of the wafer, the closer the chip is to being "perfect." As you get towards the outside, more defects form. Most binned chips end up becoming two or three products. Motorola chose to do two named products with their wafer, the 4430/4460 (4470 is a completely different design).

In this case, let's say that green is the 4460, and yellow/red are the 4430. Anything that's red can run stable at or above 1ghz. Anything yellow is 1.2ghz or higher. Green is 1.5ghz or higher. Well, to meet initial demand, Moto sells the red/yellow chips as 4430, but keeps all the green chips to stockpile for an eventual 4460 release. Eventually, supply meets demand, so Moto can start binning the red and yellow separately into two products, the 4430 @ 1ghz, and the slightly more expensive (and thus, profitable) 4430 @ 1.2ghz. The reason why this occurs is due to the inherent thermal properties. The red chips can reach 1.0-1.1ghz, and be at roughly the same temperature as the yellow chips when clocked 1.2-1.3ghz.

Anyway, this is how speed binning works. If you're board and want to know more, Google the term. Other common defects of edge chips would be defective cores in a multi-core design. This is why you'll see companies like AMD offer 4-core and 3-core versions of the same chip. It allows them to still make money off the "defective" chips, maximizing their revenue off each wafer, keeping overall costs down. Makes more sense than just discarding the defective chips, which are the majority when binned in this manner.

That is what I was saying, but in as simple of terms as I could, since did not appreciate you knew what I was talking about. Please note though, as the micron fabrication process gets smaller, the maximized yield area increases. In this case, the 4460 is the "sweet spot" for surface yield.

Point being the heat properties of the chips are better, but do represent physical difference, hence the different curves in relation to resistance (heat). A 4430 is a max clock of 1ghz and 1.2 would have been overclocking the chip. It would run hotter.

 

[Medion]

That is what I was saying, but in as simple of terms as I could, since did not appreciate you knew what I was talking about. Please note though, as the micron fabrication process gets smaller, the maximized yield area increases. In this case, the 4460 is the "sweet spot" for surface yield.

I seem to remember you disagreeing with me on this, stating that they weren't on the same wafer, and that there were internal design differences. Regardless, we're in agreement now and my story hasn't changed, so perhaps it was a misunderstanding on my part.

Point being the heat properties of the chips are better, but do represent physical difference, hence the different curves in relation to resistance (heat). A 4430 is a max clock of 1ghz and 1.2 would have been overclocking the chip. It would run hotter.

Unless it's from that mid-range bin. Then you can get roughly 1.2ghz out of it, and get similar heat production as the lower specced chip at 1.0ghz. We see this all the time.

Regardless, there are products out there legitimately running the 4430 @ 1.2ghz, but we'll see on the Razr tear-down what it has. I was doubtful at the beginning, but the closest thing we have to an official source is your link, and they state 4460.

And slightly off-topic, but I'll be partly disappointed if it is a 4460. The chip is rated for 1.5-1.8ghz, and that would make two major devices launching around the same time running it at 1.2ghz. Talk about disappointment...(I know, I know, heat dissipation and battery conservation, but I can still dream).

 

[rushmore]

I seem to remember you disagreeing with me on this, stating that they weren't on the same wafer, and that there were internal design differences. Regardless, we're in agreement now and my story hasn't changed, so perhaps it was a misunderstanding on my part.



Unless it's from that mid-range bin. Then you can get roughly 1.2ghz out of it, and get similar heat production as the lower specced chip at 1.0ghz. We see this all the time.

Regardless, there are products out there legitimately running the 4430 @ 1.2ghz, but we'll see on the Razr tear-down what it has. I was doubtful at the beginning, but the closest thing we have to an official source is your link, and they state 4460.

And slightly off-topic, but I'll be partly disappointed if it is a 4460. The chip is rated for 1.5-1.8ghz, and that would make two major devices launching around the same time running it at 1.2ghz. Talk about disappointment...(I know, I know, heat dissipation and battery conservation, but I can still dream).

Or I misstated since referring to the heat solutions for integration when populating in a device. Here is the tech data: TI OMAP4430 and OMAP4460 TRM (Technical Reference Manual) Update


Why be disappointed? Based on convention, the 4460 at 1.2ghz, should run at "about" the same power and heat as the 4430 at 1ghz. The stable threshold for the 4430 is 1ghz and the threshold for the 4460 is 1.5ghz. Both can clock higher (in relation to their own ceilings), but the heat and performance curves would start hitting diminished returns (heat going up and performance/efficiency going down).

Added: Still can not shake the fixed battery though.... I wonder if VZW appreciates what they may have gotten themselves in to? Apple is handled (for the most part) by Apple. This is different.

 

[jroc]

Isnt the gpu clocked a lil bit higher for the 4460? If so thats a lil bit more of an improvement from the 4430.

All I know is fate must have stepped in and took my money away cuz I was dead set on the Bionic. Money situation had my real strapped for cash over the last month, and by the time I can get a new phone it will be first week of Nov...lol

 

[rushmore]

Isnt the gpu clocked a lil bit higher for the 4460? If so that a lil bit more of an improvement from the 4430.

All I know is fate must have stepped in and took my money away cuz I was dead set on the Bionic. Money situation had my real strapped for cash over the last month, and by the time I can get a new phone it will be first week of Nov...lol

Correct. The gpu is about 30% higher on the 4460. Based on benchmarks so far, the Razr is about 30% faster than the Droid 3 4430 (overall) and should consume close to the same power as the 4430. Again, the 4430 gets hot when running Flash content very long. Strangely, my Flyer does not get as hot and performs better (Single core 1.5ghz Scorpion). Then again it is faster than my Thrive also. The 4430 and Tegra 2 both get hot running browser based Flash (480p or higher), even with 11.0 for very long. Battery starts heading south fast as well.

4460 probably will suffer the same fate.


Added:

Speaking of the Droid 3, it has been a great device, so will not be in too much of a hurry to relegate the D as a backup. In spite of the 4G and better display.

 

[Teegunn]

Well this is certainly exciting and kind of unexpected good news. Makes me much more likely to use my VZ upgrade on the RAZR even though I am currently very happy with my DX2. RAZR "looks" to be a sizeable upgrade (twice the ram, better processor and gpu, thinner and lighter, FFC) over my DX2. Had it been sporting the 4430 I would have for sure passed. Now I'll be visiting this board far more often.

 

[rushmore]

Medion has a point, due to the way Moto communicated information and the fact that Endgadget mentioned during their brief hands-on it was a 4430 (they had just spoken to the Moto reps at the event).

My doubt meter was 99% at first, but now is at 29% Need a tear down! Why would Samsung push for publicity about the 4460 and articles post about why Samsung decided on the 4460, but Motorola who has a strong relationship with TI already, does not?.......

Data mining to this point for the Razr shows the majority link the device with a 4430. Why a 4430 for the Razr, but most data links the Nexus with a 4460?

Hope I am just having fun here.....

 

[pm1066]

Much with PCs, I'm suspecting the difference between a 4460 @ 1.2 and a 4460 @ 1.5 for anything but benchmarking will be blink vs blink.

I like the extra leg room to overclock if I want to, but also appreciate what running the 4460 at less than full throttle will do for the overall device longevity.

I also suspect there is a pretty darn good reason why these two new phones are clocked @ 1.2 and not 1.5 or some theoretical higher value. If Moto and Sammy could've done it, they would.

 

[pm1066]

Wait...no barometer?! Deal breaker!